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What makes Pakistan the greatest touring Test nation in England

Bhaijaan

Bhaijaan

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First of all, huge respect and salute to Pakistan drawing/winning 6 of the last 8 test series played in England. For an #AsianBloc team it's a huge achievement.

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Pakistan is the ocean of fast bowling. The plethora of fast bowlers that Pakistan produce, albeit for their first 100 test wickets only, is a major reason for their success in England.

Amir, Asif, Abbas, even Hasan Ali in CT'17.

The list simply goes on and on. I expect this month of August will lead to further inclusion of two names.
 
Ab Fan said:
Pakistan is the ocean of fast bowling. The plethora of fast bowlers that Pakistan produce, albeit for their first 100 test wickets only, is a major reason for their success in England.

Amir, Asif, Abbas, even Hasan Ali in CT'17.

The list simply goes on and on. I expect this month of August will lead to further inclusion of two names.
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It would be criminal to ignore the fact that Pakistani batsmen were also able to withstand English bowling on many instances, leading to such wins and draws.
 
Greatest touring nation that last won a series in England 24 years ago?
 
Yes agree that having top quality fast bowling helps Pakistan team massively on a tour to England, but there’s another factor that I have observed over the years - fame , let me explain.

As Imran Khan once said in an interview, you can perform as an international cricketer all over the world but the fame and recognition you will get if you go and perform in England and be praised by the English media and cricket pundits, is second to none.

And Pakistani cricketers being hungry for fame and also potential income from county cricket , are clearly more motivated to perform on an individual basis in England. Let’s face it even relatively unknown players can be stars after taking a 5-fer or scoring a 100 at Lords. Mohammed Amir if he hadn’t disgraced himself back in 2010, his reputation as a fast bowler after that tour would have gone onto the next level.

Naseem Shah could become a big star on this tour if he takes a couple of 5-fers.
 
Majid Khan said:
Yes agree that having top quality fast bowling helps Pakistan team massively on a tour to England, but there’s another factor that I have observed over the years - fame , let me explain.

As Imran Khan once said in an interview, you can perform as an international cricketer all over the world but the fame and recognition you will get if you go and perform in England and be praised by the English media and cricket pundits, is second to none.

And Pakistani cricketers being hungry for fame and also potential income from county cricket , are clearly more motivated to perform on an individual basis in England. Let’s face it even relatively unknown players can be stars after taking a 5-fer or scoring a 100 at Lords. Mohammed Amir if he hadn’t disgraced himself back in 2010, his reputation as a fast bowler after that tour would have gone onto the next level.

Naseem Shah could become a big star on this tour if he takes a couple of 5-fers.
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In last decade, Pakistan has also batted better than India in England.
 
Mamoon said:
Greatest touring nation that last won a series in England 24 years ago?
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I noticed that there are many draws but some test series were very close and you needed some luck.

India won in 2007 tour to England 1-0, but there was a washed out draw at Lord's which England should have won.

Big 3 don't lose many test series at home. Draws are a huge achievement in their den and symbolic moral victories.
 
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freelance_cricketer said:
In last decade, Pakistan has also batted better than India in England.
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Yes again coming back to motivation, Pakistani batsmen get a lot of criticism about their techniques and inability to perform overseas which gives an extra incentive and motivation to then go and prove their critics wrong by performing in England , at least those who have the ability.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
I noticed that there are many draws but some test series were very close and you needed some luck.

India won in 2007 tour to England 1-0, but there was a washed out draw at Lord's which England should have won.

Big 3 don't lose many test series at home. Draws are a huge achievement in their den and symbolic moral victories.
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Yes we were lucky in 2016 because Stokes missed 3 Tests and Anderson was not fully fit.

We were lucky in 2018 because it was only a 2 match series.
 
Majid Khan said:
Yes again coming back to motivation, Pakistani batsmen get a lot of criticism about their techniques and inability to perform overseas which gives an extra incentive and motivation to then go and prove their critics wrong by performing in England , at least those who have the ability.
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It is so true. Marque series definitely do help get the best from the players. Playing against Sri Lanka, West Indies of this era certainly isn't going to inspire players to take their game to the next level.

Back in the day, India-Pakista cricket had that value too. Somewhere in late 1990s, India started looking up to Aussies as a team to bring their A game and it saw a generation of cricketers like Laxman Harbhajan who reserved their best for Australia.

As you mentioned, for Pakistan it is England.
 
There is always a debate about effectiveness vs elegance

Sometimes I feel, the class of Indian batsmen doesn't allow them to play a defensive mindset game required more often in English conditions.

I remember as a child, when I wanted to play stylish I wasn't able to play long but when I really focussed on putting bat to ball regardless of how ugly I looked playing, it helped me build long inning that would eventually help my team.

My hypothesis is that Pakistani batsmen also have put this to use and ended up gaining.
 
Mamoon said:
Greatest touring nation that last won a series in England 24 years ago?
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Facts speak for themselves. Sri Lanka have won a series 6 years ago but look at their abysmal record in England. Pakistan has been the best overall team.

Also, England hasn't won a series against Pakistan in 10 years. And we should have won in 2016 had the batting not imploded at Edgbaston.
 
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Where Pakistan are strongest is in London, 8 of the 10 wins since ‘87, doesn’t minimise the achievement as they are England’s premier grounds where nearly all visitors play - Lords and Oval.

Conditions there are more balanced, just enough in it for the bowlers but not somewhere to dine out - usually when Pak seamers come into their own.

Lack of top quality spin a worry though, practically half the line up can turn their arm but we are struggling in the specialist department - hoping Yasir finds some rhythm.
 
1986 was the only time India won more than 1 test in England, we won that series 2-0 under Kapil. We won only one test each in 1971 and 2007 series wins, won 2 tests in the 2010s across 3 series.

Pakistan must have achieved that feat (multiple wins in a series) so many times, even in 2016 they won 2 tests!!!!

Greatest Asian team in England and New Zealand. Overall I think Pakistan is behind Australia and South Africa, at par with West Indies who inflicted their share of misery on England when they had that ATG team.
 
Swashbuckler said:
1986 was the only time India won more than 1 test in England, we won that series 2-0 under Kapil. We won only one test each in 1971 and 2007 series wins, won 2 tests in the 2010s across 3 series.

Pakistan must have achieved that feat (multiple wins in a series) so many times, even in 2016 they won 2 tests!!!!

Greatest Asian team in England and New Zealand. Overall I think Pakistan is behind Australia and South Africa, at par with West Indies who inflicted their share of misery on England when they had that ATG team.
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Can’t be on par with WI because of how WI has performed in England since 1995-2020. I will put Pakistan as the greatest side after Australia to tour England.
 
Greatest touring Asian Test nation.

Australia and West Indies have done a lot better historically and South Africa have comfortably been the best side in recent times winning 2 out of their last 4 series' and drawing 1.

Overall

Australia
West Indies
South Africa
Pakistan
India
New Zealand
Sri Lanka
 
Thunderbolt14 said:
Can’t be on par with WI because of how WI has performed in England since 1995-2020. I will put Pakistan as the greatest side after Australia to tour England.
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Last couple of decades Pakistan is ahead, but WI obliterated Eng under Lloyd and Viv. Post 1939 WI actually has a winning record in England, 31-30. In the 70s and 80s WI was 15-0 in England including a 5-0 and a 4-0. I doubt Australia has done something similar.
 
Thunderbolt14 said:
Can’t be on par with WI because of how WI has performed in England since 1995-2020. I will put Pakistan as the greatest side after Australia to tour England.
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West Indies won 8 out of 10 Test series in ENG between 1950-1988. Can't put Pakistan ahead of WI even with WI's recent decline.
 
Pakistanis just love being in England. Home away from home.
 
india don't care about England. Australia is the pinnacle of greatness.

winning away in india and australia defines true. greatness.
 
Mesozoic said:
Greatest touring Asian Test nation.

Australia and West Indies have done a lot better historically and South Africa have comfortably been the best side in recent times winning 2 out of their last 4 series' and drawing 1.

Overall

Australia
West Indies
South Africa
Pakistan
India
New Zealand
Sri Lanka
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May be you should have a look at tests winning ratio .
 
tyron_woodley said:
india don't care about England. Australia is the pinnacle of greatness.

winning away in india and australia defines true. greatness.
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We do but we fall because :-

1. Australia tests your mental fortitude : We cracked it in last 15 years

2. England tests your technique : We have regressed in this department during the dame time


This is why we are falling apart in England but doing average-good for an Asian team in Australia


England is as important. They have emerged as one of our strongest and most annoying opponents in the last decade.
 
PakPremi said:
I know Pak record in Australia is terrible but how many series has India won in Australia?
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india has won in England as well. When we the last time pakistan Won* a series in England?

Indians record post 2000 in australia apart from that one series in 2012 is actually quite good. 2012 is when india were going through a terrible phase when all the greats retired at th3 same time.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
We do but we fall because :-

1. Australia tests your mental fortitude : We cracked it in last 15 years

2. England tests your technique : We have regressed in this department during the dame time


This is why we are falling apart in England but doing average-good for an Asian team in Australia


England is as important. They have emerged as one of our strongest and most annoying opponents in the last decade.
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Indians don't play county. That the only reason. Pakistani players often play county games to gain experience and acclimate to the type of conditions they will be up against. Indians neglect county but it's understandable cause india has a far busier schedule. India's workload is significantly higher than every other team. Fatigue is bound to show at some point and it clearly showed against n.z this year.
 
tyron_woodley said:
Indians don't play county. That the only reason. Pakistani players often play county games to gain experience and acclimate to the type of conditions they will be up against. Indians neglect county but it's understandable cause india has a far busier schedule. India's workload is significantly higher than every other team. Fatigue is bound to show at some point and it clearly showed against n.z this year.
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Stop making excuses. Indian batsmen are often technically lacking against the moving ball. Not that many international batsmen have played county these days
It is India's fault for their lack of technique, and it is an area that must be worked on for them to succeed in SENA and be considered an all time great team
 
people discount the fact that many pakistan playerr besofe their debut have already done a far few season stints in the club cricket circuit in UK.

This has helped them to acclimatise with the environment as well as conditions in terms of the wobbly ball, the consistent seam even when the ball is old etc

Abbas before his debut had experience of playing in England. Pretty much every pakistan player in the side had experience of playing in england before their debut
 
therealAB said:
Stop making excuses. Indian batsmen are often technically lacking against the moving ball. Not that many international batsmen have played county these days
It is India's fault for their lack of technique, and it is an area that must be worked on for them to succeed in SENA and be considered an all time great team
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it's not an excuse. it's a fact. India play more games than every other team. India's workload is higher. Indian players don't have time, for do they need to, nor do they care to play county for practice. Pakistani players have maintained a tradition of partaking in county. The results they have obtained can be attributed to county stints.
 
LOL look at India's records.India is terrible at away tests they have lost almost everything in SENA countries and they boast of number 1 rankings.HTBs of highest level.
 
Pakistan generally do well in England. I think conditions suit their bowlers.

Also, there is a huge Pakistani community and they probably feel right at home.
 
Invincible Gujjar said:
LOL look at India's records.India is terrible at away tests they have lost almost everything in SENA countries and they boast of number 1 rankings.HTBs of highest level.
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Now you're exaggerating.

India's record is particularly bad in England, NZ this decade.

In Australia, South Africa we have competed.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
Now you're exaggerating.

India's record is particularly bad in England, NZ this decade.

In Australia, South Africa we have competed.
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competed? we are way better than pakistan in australia. We are also better than pakistan in South Africa.

we only sucked vs england post 2010 and n.z. Should indian players play more often in county, I guarantee the results would be different but they wouldn't do it as they make far too much money regardless.
 
Showing what they are capable of then being offered vast sums ( in their minds) to perform slightly against the odds.
 
IMG_20200808_163022.jpg

Only cricket nation in the world to have a 1+ W/L ratio in England even after losing toss this century.

Wow!
 
One thing we can say with some confidence at this stage is that England are now pretty much certain to maintain their record of not having lost a Test series at home since 2014, when they were beaten by Sri Lanka. A draw here would mean that the worst case scenario for Joe Root and his side is a drawn series. Perhaps not how England would have liked to extend that record but still...

Pakistan are actually one of the few teams not to have lost to England in that time. India (2014 & 2018), Australia (2015), Sri Lanka (2016), South Africa (2017), West Indies (2017 & 2020) and Ireland (2019 - although does one match constitute a series?) have all come unstuck in England in the past six years but Pakistan have drawn both their series over here in the past six years.

They'll need a win in the third Test to prevent their name being added to that list.

New Zealand are the only other side to have played a Test series in England since 2014 and avoid defeat, their last visit was in 2015 and the two-match series ended 1-1.
 
I saw a graphic of the total tests played between England and Pakistan and it is very close, draws have been the highest results
 
MenInG said:
How would we fair against the current England side?
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Pakistan is still a very good bowling side, the weakness currently lies in their batting and we haven't recovered from the loss of Younis and misbah to a large extent.

If Pakistan had England chasing 378 for the last innings I believe england could have had a difficult time doing it. Shaheen is in a lot better form than Bumrah is if we go by current form. Hassan Ali would have come into his own in English conditions as well. Mohammad Abbas who typically does well in england would had been a handful. It would have been a very interesting match up.
 
pakistanis batsmen biggest shortcoming is against bounce and seam, the two countries which have historically relied on medium pace swing, eng and nz, pak had good record, until very recently. its not coincidental pak struggled in nz more once they had wagner and jamieson. pakistani batsmen will do well in any country where you can camp on the front foot without fear of injury.

also a lot of Pakistani players have league experience.
 
ElRaja said:
pakistanis batsmen biggest shortcoming is against bounce and seam, the two countries which have historically relied on medium pace swing, eng and nz, pak had good record, until very recently. its not coincidental pak struggled in nz more once they had wagner and jamieson. pakistani batsmen will do well in any country where you can camp on the front foot without fear of injury.

also a lot of Pakistani players have league experience.
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Savvy points. But one thing that many folks here are getting wrong is that Pak bowling has been a bigger let down in Australia than batting. In 2016 series Pak batting scored a lot of runs but couldn’t get Australia out.
Even Pak prime bowling sides struggled. Shoib, Waqar and Saqlain had challenging time there.
Almost all the pacers and spinners have struggled in Australia except Wasim and to an extent Mushtaq Ahmed.

Pak will be competitive in Australia with same batting unit but improved bowling.
I am not sure what the reason is but I am guessing it’s the lengths and fielding.
 
Pakistan bowling average in Australia is 45+ or something while in SEN, it’s less than 30. That’s the problem they need to address.
Pak bowlers prefer dukes and a bit of swing on offer.

They lack the discipline. They bowl short on wickets with bounce and don't get movement with the Kookaburra ball when they bowl full.
 
Outside Pak more fans in the UK then anywhere else. This helps the team many ways.
 
We were lucky not to be whitewashed by England. Rain saved us 2 matches.
 
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