What would make Pakistan change its stance on Kashmir?

[Yoddha]

Every right thinking Indian and Pakistani wants good relations between the two.

Can not you guys let go of your Kashmir obsession so we can appreciate and love each other?

Pakistan has Muslim majority but it doesn't represent Islam - of course. But even if it is concerned about Muslims of India, it's all out there -
180 million Muslims live in India. They chose India over Pakistan during partition. Proudly say they are Indians. Love their motherland. Love their Hindu Brethren.

Leaving aside the above para on Hindu/Muslims, why does your public not insist on your policy makers , army etc. that let go of the Kashmir obsession and let's be brothers with India?

 

[Waseem]

Every right thinking Indian and Pakistani wants good relations between the two.

Can not you guys let go of your Kashmir obsession so we can appreciate and love each other?

Pakistan has Muslim majority but it doesn't represent Islam - of course. But even if it is concerned about Muslims of India, it's all out there -
180 million Muslims live in India. They chose India over Pakistan during partition. Proudly say they are Indians. Love their motherland. Love their Hindu Brethren.

Leaving aside the above para on Hindu/Muslims, why does your public not insist on your policy makers , army etc. that let go of the Kashmir obsession and let's be brothers with India?

Fair enough, i can see good intentions there however what MOST Indians (i am assuming you are one) absolutely fail to realize is Pakistan cannot control the entire Kahsmir when they are rising up themselves in MASSIVE numbers against Indian forces.

I am not one of those who believe every Kashmiri wants separation form India and they all love Pakistan but recent Kashmir uprising has absolutely nothing to do with Pakistan(confirmed by many Kashmiri leaders). ALL Pakistani politicians in 2013 elections agreed that peace with India should be priority even if it means Kashmir issue being on back-burner for a while. You would hardly find a single key Pakistani politician pushing the Kashmir issue in last 4-5 years. Even Pakistanis were surprised by this recent uprising when Wani was killed and since then you can see thousands of Kashmiris out in the streets, throwing stones and opposing Indian forces with full force. This did not even happen EVER before and no amount of support from Pakistan can ever convince average Kashmiris to come out in these numbers.

In short, yes Pakistan can forget Kashmir for long lasting peace but you have to convince Kashmiris first, thousands and thousands of soldiers and curfews is never going to help.

 

[Yoddha]

Fair enough, i can see good intentions there however what MOST Indians (i am assuming you are one) absolutely fail to realize is Pakistan cannot control the entire Kahsmir when they are rising up themselves in MASSIVE numbers against Indian forces.

I am not one of those who believe every Kashmiri wants separation form India and they all love Pakistan but recent Kashmir uprising has absolutely nothing to do with Pakistan(confirmed by many Kashmiri leaders). ALL Pakistani politicians in 2013 elections agreed that peace with India should be priority even if it means Kashmir issue being on back-burner for a while. You would hardly find a single key Pakistani politician pushing the Kashmir issue in last 4-5 years. Even Pakistanis were surprised by this recent uprising when Wani was killed and since then you can see thousands of Kashmiris out in the streets, throwing stones and opposing Indian forces with full force. This did not even happen EVER before and no amount of support from Pakistan can ever convince average Kashmiris to come out in these numbers.

In short, yes Pakistan can forget Kashmir for long lasting peace but you have to convince Kashmiris first, thousands and thousands of soldiers and curfews is never going to help.

Yar your army gives them arms, safe heavens and launch pads. Is India wrong in holding Pakistan responsible for it? Afterall even the homegrown terrorists/militants get arms from across the border.

 

[Waseem]

Yar your army gives them arms, safe heavens and launch pads. Is India wrong in holding Pakistan responsible for it? Afterall even the homegrown terrorists/militants get arms from across the border.

Even your Army chief admitted that stones are far more dangerous than guns. How many armed attacks have you heard of from Kashmiris in the last few years? Maybe i have missed something but haven't heard of any major attacks carried out by Kashmiris (except few gunfires here and there)?
It comes back to same thing again, Pakistanis can provide them weapons but can't convince/force school going youth to put their lives in danger throwing stones at Indian soldiers.

 

[Yoddha]

Even your Army chief admitted that stones are far more dangerous than guns. How many armed attacks have you heard of from Kashmiris in the last few years? Maybe i have missed something but haven't heard of any major attacks carried out by Kashmiris (except few gunfires here and there)?
It comes back to same thing again, Pakistanis can provide them weapons but can't convince/force school going youth to put their lives in danger throwing stones at Indian soldiers.

Trust your neighbours to be equally humane if not more than you when dealing with stone pelters.

Yar there is problem. With Pakistan. The headquarters of Hizb is in your Kashmir, n of LeT , in your Punjab. India genuinely wants peace. I am telling you. Any and every govt. over here. Each and every thing that we do is in retaliation. India is a peace love country. You will see if you convert LoC into international border, stop arming and hosting terrorists, Indians will shower their genuine love. It's not worth fighting these bloody flights with so many innocents' blood getting spilled.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

No.


Kashmir issue has to solved with dialogue between Pakistan, India & Kashmiri People.

Pakistan will never let it go at any cost.


UN resolutions need to be implemented.

 

[Yoddha]

No.


Kashmir issue has to solved with dialogue between Pakistan, India & Kashmiri People.

Pakistan will never let it go at any cost.


UN resolutions need to be implemented.

Yar 'resolution' is the status quo boundary. If there was any other 'resolution' acceptable, to phir 4 wars aur deadly proxy wars na Hoti Sattar saal tak.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Yar 'resolution' is the status quo boundary. If there was any other 'resolution' acceptable, to phir 4 wars aur deadly proxy wars na Hoti Sattar saal tak.

Unite all Kashmir even Pak n China side. Involve Int observers on whom India Pak & Kashmiri lesdership have confidence and do the Kashmir Plebiscite.


Let Kashmiris decide their future and India and Pakistan should respect their decision fully.


No other remedy.


Both India & Pakistan will stop proxy wars and can progress immensely after this.


No other way out.

 

[Yoddha]

Unite all Kashmir even Pak n China side. Involve Int observers on whom India Pak & Kashmiri lesdership have confidence and do the Kashmir Plebiscite.


Let Kashmiris decide their future and India and Pakistan should respect their decision fully.


No other remedy.


Both India & Pakistan will stop proxy wars and can progress immensely after this.


No other way out.

Indian Kashmir integral part of India. Pakistani Kashmir integral part of Pakistan. Come on bhai, I am trying to meet you half the way. You also try.

 

[Zak_Fan]

Unite all Kashmir even Pak n China side. Involve Int observers on whom India Pak & Kashmiri lesdership have confidence and do the Kashmir Plebiscite.


Let Kashmiris decide their future and India and Pakistan should respect their decision fully.


No other remedy.


Both India & Pakistan will stop proxy wars and can progress immensely after this.


No other way out.

Yes, do that after 70 years when Kashmiris have been radicalized and anti-India sentiments are at an all time high.

If it didn't happen before, it wouldn't happen now.

 

[Yoddha]

[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] Maan ja mere pyare Raj dulare please....we will solve all your problems for you...maan bhi ja yaar.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] Maan ja mere pyare Raj dulare please....we will solve all your problems for you...maan bhi ja yaar.

Meray Aziz. Aap Maan Jao Kashmirioun ki. Meri pakistanioun ki choarho.

EU ki tarah azaad entry bhaee chaaraa sair sapatayy amann tijaratt. So much fun and hope for both.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Yes, do that after 70 years when Kashmiris have been radicalized and anti-India sentiments are at an all time high.

If it didn't happen before, it wouldn't happen now.

Phir uss waqt maan letay. Hum ne nai roka tha.

 

[TM Riddle]

Kashmir is going nowhere.The status quo is gonna remain as such.
Kashmiris have no say in this matter.

 

[ToeCrusher2]

Phir uss waqt maan letay. Hum ne nai roka tha.

Tum ne hi roka tha, had you complied with first condition of the resolution and removed your army from the area toh ho jaata referendum but maybe tumhari army ko hi yakeen nahi tha us time ke decision tumhary haq mein aayega ya nahi

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Tum ne hi roka tha, had you complied with first condition of the resolution and removed your army from the area toh ho jaata referendum but maybe tumhari army ko hi yakeen nahi tha us time ke decision tumhary haq mein aayega ya nahi

Acha plebiscite ki sirf aik shart thee ? Jo k hum ne poori nai ki ?

 

[ToeCrusher2]

Acha plebiscite ki sirf aik shart thee ? Jo k hum ne poori nai ki ?

Jab tak pehli shart hi poori na ho to aage kaise bada jaa sakta hai, take responsibility for your army's decision

 

[ExpressPacer]

Not until Kashmir is an independent state. While I'm all for peace and love between the Pakistani and Indian community, I don't want to have to anything with anyone that supports his/her Govt. for the brutality in Kashmir.

 

[Badsha]

The UN should hold elections. Each part decides stay vs leave. That's it.

 

[PakLFC]

Nothing can change Pak's mind. We generally and honestly feel a massive historical injustice was done that must be put right. Only ending the existence of Pakistan can change our minds, nothing else. Even then the Kashmiris will still keep on fighting for freedom without a Pakistan.

 

[Azzurri]

Kashmir is going nowhere.The status quo is gonna remain as such.
Kashmiris have no say in this matter.

You have become so bitter over the last few months. Not good

 

[Pakistanian]

Nothing short of independence, a lot of Indians aren't aware that there are many people with Kashmiri ancestry in Pakistan that are in important positions. It's like expecting America to change it's stance on Israel considering how influential Jewish Americans and Evangelicals are, you don't wanna hold your breath on that.

 

[TM Riddle]

You have become so bitter over the last few months. Not good

My stand on Kashmir has been the same for a long time.
Re religion , Yes I have been anti theist for quite some time now.But that has more to do with the present prevailing atmosphere in India and it just isn't limited to Islam only.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Ridiculous premise to the OP and complete lack of understanding of the issue.

1. There has never been a country called India in history prior to foreigners gathering territory and trying to put it under one rule. So the default should never have been Merging with India or Pakistan. There ought to be 8 -10 countries in the subcontinent.

2. Kashmiris do not want to be or consider themselves to be Indian. If other 180 million Muslims want to be Indian then by all means it's their choice.

The thread should really be, what would it take to change India's stance on Kashmir.

 

[Yossarian]

Every right thinking Indian and Pakistani wants good relations between the two.

Can not you guys let go of your Kashmir obsession so we can appreciate and love each other?

Pakistan has Muslim majority but it doesn't represent Islam - of course. But even if it is concerned about Muslims of India, it's all out there -
180 million Muslims live in India. They chose India over Pakistan during partition. Proudly say they are Indians. Love their motherland. Love their Hindu Brethren.

Leaving aside the above para on Hindu/Muslims, why does your public not insist on your policy makers , army etc. that let go of the Kashmir obsession and let's be brothers with India?

You start off by pretending to be conciliatory and wanting a peaceful resolution, and then continue to spout the same old rubbish, both in the OP and in the rest of your posts, of blaming everything on Pakistan, blaming everything on the Kashmiris, but not accepting any blame for the actions of the Indian forces that generate the Kashmiri peoples hatred for India and Indian forces.

 

[Yoddha]

Ridiculous premise to the OP and complete lack of understanding of the issue.

1. There has never been a country called India in history prior to foreigners gathering territory and trying to put it under one rule. So the default should never have been Merging with India or Pakistan. There ought to be 8 -10 countries in the subcontinent.

2. Kashmiris do not want to be or consider themselves to be Indian. If other 180 million Muslims want to be Indian then by all means it's their choice.

The thread should really be, what would it take to change India's stance on Kashmir.

This is what I am saying my friend. If 180 million Muslims love India as much as you love your country, then is there not a chance tht these few Kashmiri Muslims (that too only from 1 particular region in the state) might be brainwashed, misled and radicalized on the basis of religion?

All I ask is trust. Trust India on dealing with human beings as human beings. We try our best, we will try to do better.

Can you try to destroy Hizbul Mujahideens infrastructure and headquarters in your Kashmir? Can you destroy LeTs infrastructure and headquarters in your Punjab? Can you not arm the terrorists and give them safe heavens and launch pads to go into India?

 

[moghul]

Whats wrong with these Kashmirs, after 70 years under India, majority of them still don;t want to be part of India. Can India show some moral courage to ask them , what exactly they want. I would have no problem if they reject to join Pakistan and wanted to stay with India, but please ask them, for God sake.

 

[Yoddha]

Whats wrong with these Kashmirs, after 70 years under India, majority of them still don;t want to be part of India. Can India show some moral courage to ask them , what exactly they want. I would have no problem if they reject to join Pakistan and wanted to stay with India, but please ask them, for God sake.

Why ask when we can guess?

180 million Indian Muslims vs. A portion of Muslims of a portion of Indian JnK (not from jammu, not from northern kashmir, not from Leh, not from Laddakh). It's a strong point my friend. If India is bad to muslims, why do a vast majority of 180 million Indian muslims chose India, love India and hate pakistan for what it's doing?

 

[Zak_Fan]

Phir uss waqt maan letay. Hum ne nai roka tha.

Aapney hi roka tha, refer history.

 

[aniket1911]

Pakistan won't change it's stance on Kashmir, any disability in Kashmir will be rightly or wrongly blamed on Pakistan. India will try to avenge their soldiers by getting back at Pakistan, try to isolate her, paint her as a terrorist state in international arena. Pakistan will claim how they want nothing but peace with India and then proceed to announce black day for a terrorist burhan wani and the cycle will repeat.

One thing we can establish looking at past pattern is that it's more likely that both country will rather have nuclear war and get perished from the world map rather than have peace and sadly even people from both nations won't have it any other way.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Aapney hi roka tha, refer history.

Dou bhaee hain. Dono ne aik dusray ko mooradd e ilzaam thehraana hai. Na India ne maan na, na Pakistan ne. But Pakistan agreed for Arbitration and for a 3rd party to decide who is right or wrong but India wasn't isn't ready.


India is bazidd that don't talk about Kahmir and we can still have Cordial relations but 70 years tell Other wise.


Ok keep up the proxy wars both nations. Shabaash merwaee jao insaan dono taraff and Kashmiris too.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Jab tak pehli shart hi poori na ho to aage kaise bada jaa sakta hai, take responsibility for your army's decision

In those times our foreign policy was in control of Civilian government.


We had a great chance to gain control of Kashmir with few dozen casualities but than our Army made technical mistake. Nobody knows if that was Intensional or Unintensional. India was on backfoot.

 

[Bewal Express]

Kashmir is going nowhere.The status quo is gonna remain as such.
Kashmiris have no say in this matter.

Nobody thought the Soviet Union would collapse and the Berlin Wall would come down, but it happened. The Inds are hated by most of the Kashmiris and will never win hearts and Minds. For the Inds, Kashmir is a chance to show the muslims that they are superior but the Kashmiris will never accept that and hence the anger and desperation on the part of the Inds in response to a different type of anger and desperation from the Kashmiris. For me the solution the SC needs is for a free Kashmir from both so no egos are bruised and then both can spend the hard earnt dollars on the billion poor Inds and the 175mn poor in PK.

 

[big_gamer007]

In an ideal world even if Kashmir was an entirely different country it should have had open borders with India and Pakistan and there should have been peace and tourism between all three countries..

In the real world the issue will persist for many more decades and future generations will continue to suffer till we get strong leaders who are willing to resolve the issue on all sides..

 

[big_gamer007]

This is what I am saying my friend. If 180 million Muslims love India as much as you love your country, then is there not a chance tht these few Kashmiri Muslims (that too only from 1 particular region in the state) might be brainwashed, misled and radicalized on the basis of religion?

All I ask is trust. Trust India on dealing with human beings as human beings. We try our best, we will try to do better.

Can you try to destroy Hizbul Mujahideens infrastructure and headquarters in your Kashmir? Can you destroy LeTs infrastructure and headquarters in your Punjab? Can you not arm the terrorists and give them safe heavens and launch pads to go into India?

There is a difference the Indian Muslims ancestor chose to stay with India or didn't have a choice whatever the reason may be they have integrated with Indians and Hindus as much as they can..

Kashmiri people were forced to side with India, some may love India some may not, there is no integration with rest of India you can't buy land and settle in Kashmir so they feel alienated since start.. And to cap it off there is a large army presence and news (maybe fake maybe real) of army torturing and involved in cases of rapes only alienates and further angers the population against India..

No one knows for sure what % Kashmiri people love India and what % do not like India.. Inwould blame the successive governments in state and centre for leading to the situation we are in right now, 70 years have passed you should have been less corrupt and focussed on development of Kashmir and then let people from rest of India to settle down over there so that the Kashmiri people had integrated with rest of India and he issue would have been resolved..

I think no one wants to resolve the issue now and use it for political point scoring in domestic as well as international arena.. Also it keeps Pakistani army relevant and in control..

 

[member250]

Honestly speaking? Pakistan had almost forgotten IoK before recent uprising. And no matter how much India deny, world is watching that it's indigenous unlike in 90's when Pakistan used to send people across the border to support.

Now the question should be what will it take Kashmiris in valley to accept India as country? Go ask them. But if you are asking Pakistan to not back Kashmiris diplomatically in their quest to hold referendum just like UN resolutions says then it's bit too much. What Pakistan have learned over the years is that stones by Kashmiris themselves are more lethal then any bullets by people trained in camps from this side.

 

[ToeCrusher2]

There is no need to make pakistan chance its stance, just maintain the status quo and increase the power gap between the two countries till it becomes unsustainable for pak to render any support to kashmir and that is exactly what we have been doing and will continue to do so in the future as well.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

India agreeing to the UN referendum would help. Then Pakistan can vacate the area and India can do likewise. Hold a UN referendum.

Pakistan can't walk out until India agrees because Indian constitution says it has a duty to take AJK...

Muslims in Jammu and Ladakh don't really want to be with India. Kashmir valley has large swathes that want to be part of Pakistan and some want independence.

Either way, an independent valley would be pretty much part of Pakistan as it would need pak during winter as it is snow bound.

India can't hold onto Kashmir valley forever. I think you will be something soon where Kashmir valley potentially becomes part of Pakistan.

Ps I am Kashmiri. Just being honest.

 

[Yoddha]

^don't mislead bro. Muslims of Jammu, Leh , laddhakh strongly consider themselves Indians, want to Indians. North Kashmir also - a significant percentage wants to be Indians but their opinion doesn't comes up as it should, due to the fear spread by terrorists and seperatists who will call them traitors and kill them.

 

[Yoddha]

Also what about 180 million Muslims of India? They love India not less than any other peoples love for their country.

In Kashmir, its more to do with seperatisms/terrorism due to IS style radicalization being supported by Pakistan.

As said, the headquarters​of Hizbul Mujahideen in Pakistani Kashmir and LeT in Pakistani Punjab. Arms, indoctrination, safe heavens, launch pads for terrorists

 

[ToeCrusher2]

India agreeing to the UN referendum would help. Then Pakistan can vacate the area and India can do likewise. Hold a UN referendum.

Pakistan can't walk out until India agrees because Indian constitution says it has a duty to take AJK...

Muslims in Jammu and Ladakh don't really want to be with India. Kashmir valley has large swathes that want to be part of Pakistan and some want independence.

Either way, an independent valley would be pretty much part of Pakistan as it would need pak during winter as it is snow bound.

India can't hold onto Kashmir valley forever. I think you will be something soon where Kashmir valley potentially becomes part of Pakistan.

Ps I am Kashmiri. Just being honest.

It doesn't work like that, the referendum will never happen now, the demography has changed, part of the land has been donated to china, a lot of wars have been fought, many people have been killed, the opportunity to hold a referendum ( if ever there was such a possibility) has been lost forever, India has nothing to gain but all to lose by conducting the referendum, so why would India agree to referendum, India has enough clout right now that no country can force India to do anything on kashmir.

You guys can wait and hope for a change in the geo political climate which leads to weakening of India's position globally because India in its current position can never agree to such a stupid proposition. Maybe India can't hold on to kashmir forever but India will hold on to kashmir till it is powerful enough to do so.

 

[Yoddha]

^don't mislead bro. Muslims of Jammu, Leh , laddhakh strongly consider themselves Indians, want to Indians. North Kashmir also - a significant percentage wants to be Indians but their opinion doesn't comes up as it should, due to the fear spread by terrorists and seperatists who will call them traitors and kill them.

Doesn't come* up

 

[Yoddha]

The thing is both Indians and Pakistanis die in attacks and retaliations but unfortunately I haven't seen a post here from a Pakistani saying yes, the headquarters n infrastructure of terrorist organisations Hizb.and LeT must destroyed by Pakistan.

 

[ToeCrusher2]

The thing is both Indians and Pakistanis die in attacks and retaliations but unfortunately I haven't seen a post here from a Pakistani saying yes, the headquarters n infrastructure of terrorist organisations Hizb.and LeT must destroyed by Pakistan.

lol are you new to the kashmir issue, why would any pakistani condemn hizbul mujhahideen, they are freedom fighters according to them. Why do you want to change pakistan's stance in the first place, let them have their stance, and you keep your stance, if 4 wars and 70+ years of diplomatic talks weren't able to change the stance of either side then why do you think your thread will be able to achieve that?

 

[Yoddha]

lol are you new to the kashmir issue, why would any pakistani condemn hizbul mujhahideen, they are freedom fighters according to them. Why do you want to change pakistan's stance in the first place, let them have their stance, and you keep your stance, if 4 wars and 70+ years of diplomatic talks weren't able to change the stance of either side then why do you think your thread will be able to achieve that?

I get it tht it's a rhetorical question that you have put bro but excuse me for still answering it.

Why I expect Pakistanis to change their stance - globalisation, literacy, internet killing the ignorance, devastation that terrorism and radicalization have caused worldwide including in Pakistan.

These are the reasons why I expect Pakistanis to change their 70 yr old stance.

 

[Madplayer]

I get it tht it's a rhetorical question that you have put bro but excuse me for still answering it.

Why I expect Pakistanis to change their stance - globalisation, literacy, internet killing the ignorance, devastation that terrorism and radicalization have caused worldwide including in Pakistan.

These are the reasons why I expect Pakistanis to change their 70 yr old stance.

That would change their methods , not their stance.

Arrogance of India, being a big regional power, is what is causing trouble in our part of the world. India's stance has changed so much that now they say that Kashmir isnt even a dispute. This is clearly due to hindutva radicalization and the paradigm shift in ideological beliefs of the Indian centre.

The use of media in this case is inhuman but efficient. But you know thats how a certain someone became the ruler of India 3 years ago. Indian media is demonizing Kashmiris like Nazi media demonized jews. Cnn ibn, the republic, ibn7, india today mostly show manipulated truth. "Why do kashmiris have red cheeks?" Was a topic of debate on one of the shows. I mean seriously? Most of it is false anyway. Attempts are made to corner

Kashmiris on all fronts be it diplomatically, militarily, development wise or even in maintainence of human rights and values. Justifications and rewards are being given for war crimes under geneva convention or even the Indian army act.

I would like to believe that your intentions wrt this thread were good but like all others you have failed to 1) put some amount of blame on India 2) consider for a moment what Kashmiris want and why they want it.

What i have learned through all my discussions on Kashmir here on PP is that no matter how much you discuss and how many arguments you present, the other side (i am including every side in it) would never change its stance. I guess thats just an indication of how things are on the larger front as well where no power wants to back down.

So my advice to you would be to sit back and dont waste your time discussing such a topic online because you would only disappoint yourself and get a high blood pressure.

 

[Yoddha]

That would change their methods , not their stance.
.

Yes yes, I meant the method. Any answers for that?

 

[Madplayer]

Yes yes, I meant the method. Any answers for that?

It may or it may not. You can never draw a line and say okay this is the point where we will see a turn around. Indians would obviously want Pakistan to stop any support to Kashmir be it diplomatic or military support. That would allow them to burry the hatchet that Kashmir is once and for all without being held accountable for what they have done to its people over decades.

Coming to Pak, Military enjoys a lot of independent power in Pakistan so i am not sure improvement in economy, literacy etc in civil society would have an impact on how Pakistani military deals with its problems. The most important factor is the larger sentiment among Kashmiris. Until that changes, nothing will change. Lets be honest here, If there is no such sentiment, Pak wont be able to do jack. And to be honest, Kashmiris have come too far to go back now, they wont stop at anything. They never have, they never will until they get to decide their fate themselves. Thats their definition of living a life with dignity where they have the power to decide for themselves and not allow outsiders to tell them who they should align with.

 

[Yoddha]

It may or it may not. You can never draw a line and say okay this is the point where we will see a turn around. Indians would obviously want Pakistan to stop any support to Kashmir be it diplomatic or military support. That would allow them to burry the hatchet that Kashmir is once and for all without being held accountable for what they have done to its people over decades.

Coming to Pak, Military enjoys a lot of independent power in Pakistan so i am not sure improvement in economy, literacy etc in civil society would have an impact on how Pakistani military deals with its problems. The most important factor is the larger sentiment among Kashmiris. Until that changes, nothing will change. Lets be honest here, If there is no such sentiment, Pak wont be able to do jack. And to be honest, Kashmiris have come too far to go back now, they wont stop at anything. They never have, they never will until they get to decide their fate themselves. Thats their definition of living a life with dignity where they have the power to decide for themselves and not allow outsiders to tell them who they should align with.

Even if it were true (I don't think it is true), Why do you want hide behind Kashmiris?

Terrorism is today's world is a known cancer. Look at how much devastation it caused in the world including in Pakistan.

It is Pakistans responsibility and noone else's to completely destroyed Hizbul Mujahideen and LeTs infrastructure and headquarters. Please don't hide behind Kashmiris. Your army should stop arming them, protecting them and providing safe heavens.

 

[Madplayer]

Even if it were true (I don't think it is true), Why do you want hide behind Kashmiris?

Terrorism is today's world is a known cancer. Look at how much devastation it caused in the world including in Pakistan.

It is Pakistans responsibility and noone else's to completely destroyed Hizbul Mujahideen and LeTs infrastructure and headquarters. Please don't hide behind Kashmiris. Your army should stop arming them, protecting them and providing safe heavens.

I am not hiding behind anyone lol i am a Kashmiri from the Indian side of Kashmir.

And to make it clear , I dont support terrorism at all. I am not willing to ignore the reasons which push Kashmiris in that direction either. Root out the reasons, everything will fall in place. For that, you need to enter into an open ended dialogue with all parties. Something the rightist center in India isnt willing to do out of its arrogance.

 

[Yoddha]

I am not hiding behind anyone lol i am a Kashmiri from the Indian side of Kashmir.

And to make it clear , I dont support terrorism at all. I am not willing to ignore the reasons which push Kashmiris in that direction either. Root out the reasons, everything will fall in place. For that, you need to enter into an open ended dialogue with all parties. Something the rightist center in India isnt willing to do out of its arrogance.

Fine, you are a Kashmiri.Please don't give reasons/excuses for terrorism.

You don't support terrorism. That's good to know. Atleast we agree on this. Can you support me in my views that Hizb. and LeTs infrastructure should be totally annihilated by Pakistan and that there is no place for terrorism seeing how much devastation it has caused n continues to cause worldwide?

 

[Madplayer]

Fine, you are a Kashmiri.Please don't give reasons/excuses for terrorism.

You don't support terrorism. That's good to know. Atleast we agree on this. Can you support me in my views that Hizb. and LeTs infrastructure should be totally annihilated by Pakistan and that there is no place for terrorism seeing how much devastation it has caused n continues to cause worldwide?

Yes.

Would you support me when i say Indian army generals of old and some of present should be identified and tried for war crimes. India should start dialogue with Pakistan and Kashmir and implement UN resolutions by making army vactate Kashmir apart from a token force for law and order problems. India and Pakistan both should create conditions so that a plebescite could be held under the supervision of UN as was promised to Kashmiris by Indian prime ministers of Past.

Would you agree to it? If not, then you are part of the problem and those hizb and lashkar militant outfits would never cease exist no matter how badly we want.

 

[Yoddha]

Yes.

Would you support me when i say Indian army generals of old and some of present should be identified and tried for war crimes. India should start dialogue with Pakistan and Kashmir and implement UN resolutions by making army vactate Kashmir apart from a token force for law and order problems. India and Pakistan both should create conditions so that a plebescite could be held under the supervision of UN as was promised to Kashmiris by Indian prime ministers of Past.

Would you agree to it? If not, then you are part of the problem and those hizb and lashkar militant outfits would never cease exist no matter how badly we want.

No, I don't support you because I believe you are wrong. Also, don't agree with you on the last para. It's about Pakistans policy decision. They can take on Hizbul Mujahideen and Lashkar, go about it smartly and do the needful. Again, it's about their policy decision.

 

[Madplayer]

No, I don't support you because I believe you are wrong. Also, don't agree with you on the last para. It's about Pakistans policy decision. They can take on Hizbul Mujahideen and Lashkar, go about it smartly and do the needful. Again, it's about their policy decision.

Lol okay.

 

[kingusama92]

Also what about 180 million Muslims of India? They love India not less than any other peoples love for their country.

In Kashmir, its more to do with seperatisms/terrorism due to IS style radicalization being supported by Pakistan.

As said, the headquartersof Hizbul Mujahideen in Pakistani Kashmir and LeT in Pakistani Punjab. Arms, indoctrination, safe heavens, launch pads for terrorists

While I don't claim to be an expert of that region and its politics...

Your argument seems heavily one-sided and paints India in a very good light.

In reality, both sides are equally responsible for what's transpired in Kashmir. Indian or Pakistani politicians (and many of their citizens) are essentially walking and talking Sehwags or Rashid Latifs.

You expect people like this to resolve such issues? This will drag on for generations unfortunately and used as a timely political topic during elections to rev up support.

 

[Yoddha]

Lol okay.

Pakistani took on TTP as well which is a terrorist organisation. It's about policy decision. I believe it will be a lot easier than tackling TTP.

 

[Yoddha]

While I don't claim to be an expert of that region and its politics...

Your argument seems heavily one-sided and paints India in a very good light.

In reality, both sides are equally responsible for what's transpired in Kashmir. Indian or Pakistani politicians (and many of their citizens) are essentially walking and talking Sehwags or Rashid Latifs.

You expect people like this to resolve such issues? This will drag on for generations unfortunately and used as a timely political topic during elections to rev up support.

Yar there are differences (perhaps unresolvable). No denying. But think about the massive changes brought by globalisation, literacy, internet (which has killed a lot of ignorance), think about the devastation terrorism caused worldwide, including in Pakistan, every one realises this I think.

So let the differences be there (not an ideal scenario but not any other choice) . But atleast on terrorism, their should be no difference. Hizb. And LeT must be destroyed by Pakistan.

 

[Yoddha]

There*

 

[captain crook]

Freedom.

 

[Waseem]

Trust your neighbours to be equally humane if not more than you when dealing with stone pelters.

Yar there is problem. With Pakistan. The headquarters of Hizb is in your Kashmir, n of LeT , in your Punjab. India genuinely wants peace. I am telling you. Any and every govt. over here. Each and every thing that we do is in retaliation. India is a peace love country. You will see if you convert LoC into international border, stop arming and hosting terrorists, Indians will shower their genuine love. It's not worth fighting these bloody flights with so many innocents' blood getting spilled.

Well you started well on this thread but then going same route as typical brainwashed Indians who believe EVEYRTHIG their media feeds them. It is such a massive issue and thousands have lost their lives so surely both sides are at fault. In India's case, you are not just fighting Pakistanis but resident Kashmiris as well and as much as you blame Pakistan, you can't blame Kashmiris for raising their voices against Indian rule.

 

[big_gamer007]

[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION]

Since we are on this topic I would like to ask you a question..

Would you accept a scenario where India and Pakistan accept the current LOC..

However Kashmiri people from either side can go to the other side via open border (similar to USA and Canada) and even purchase land on either side of Kashmir at normal rates..

The government of both side focus on development of the land and people of Kashmir..

Pakistan bans all terrorist outfits operating on their soil and jails people like hafiz etc..

Indian army maintains minimum presence in Kashmir just to maintain basic law and order till the police of the state becomes up to the mark..

However you would be an Indian citizen as you are from Indian side and someone like wasim_waqar would be Pakistani citizen since they are from other side of LOC..

Would you accept the above scenario or would you prefer to keep fighting and be independent and have nothing to do with India?

 

[Yoddha]

Well you started well on this thread but then going same route as typical brainwashed Indians who believe EVEYRTHIG their media feeds them. It is such a massive issue and thousands have lost their lives so surely both sides are at fault. In India's case, you are not just fighting Pakistanis but resident Kashmiris as well and as much as you blame Pakistan, you can't blame Kashmiris for raising their voices against Indian rule.

Points of views differ. Your point of view you have stated. My PoV is that since 180 million muslims live as proud Indians means india is good for Muslims and there is no reason to give importance to separatism based on islam in the valley and india has been very soft in dealing with separatists.

You may differ with my PoV . But why differ on terrorism? It is a globalized world my friend. See the devastation that terrorism caused....So easy to pit Muslims vs. non-muslims ,sunni vs shia/ahmedi, Baluchi vs. punjabi, wahabi vs non-wahabi etc. Etc....Yar any half-witted idiot can cause terrorism n blame it on anything. With this realization, why don't you destroy terrorist infrastructure of Hizb and Lashkar n be brothers with India? China-india also have had boundary dispute but not a single bullet fired in 40 yrs and no religion-based terrorism.

 

[member250]

Also what about 180 million Muslims of India? They love India not less than any other peoples love for their country.

In Kashmir, its more to do with seperatisms/terrorism due to IS style radicalization being supported by Pakistan.

As said, the headquarters​of Hizbul Mujahideen in Pakistani Kashmir and LeT in Pakistani Punjab. Arms, indoctrination, safe heavens, launch pads for terrorists

Not this myth again of muslim world being one entity, we are 1.5 billion and not everyone think along same lines. Kashmiris obviously don't want to be India, before it used to be blamed on Pakistan. But now even that blame game doesn't fly.

 

[Yoddha]

Not this myth again of muslim world being one entity, we are 1.5 billion and not everyone think along same lines. Kashmiris obviously don't want to be India, before it used to be blamed on Pakistan. But now even that blame game doesn't fly.

What myth man? Tell any Indian Muslim aside from the few separatists from the valley that they don't love India and you will get your answer.

Anyways, I have raised a pointed question regarding terrorism in the above post bro. Let us not divert the focus from it. Thanks.

 

[maverick85]

What myth man? Tell any Indian Muslim aside from the few separatists from the valley that they don't love India and you will get your answer.

Anyways, I have raised a pointed question regarding terrorism in the above post bro. Let us not divert the focus from it. Thanks.

Where are you from?

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

We will not stop until we achieve our right of self determination and/or are free of India.

Everything else is immaterial until we are free of India.

The LoC is highly scrutinised therefore people can't cross openly now.

Kashmiris don't want to be known as Indian citizens much as Palestinians don't want to be Israeli citizens.

You call yourselves the world's greatest democracy but you don't give Kashmiris the right of self-determination?

Until you agree to the UN referendum, you can't claim the moral high ground.

Kashmiris even protested at Pak v India and you should've seen the jaws of the Indian fans and journos drop!!!

India needs to leave kashmir, especially the valley. It would be a dream come true.

Killings, rapes, mass graves, 800,000 troops, half widows...if India were a Muslim country (namely Pakistan), the world would ensure they were kicked out of kashmir years ago.

 

[Madplayer]

[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION]

Since we are on this topic I would like to ask you a question..

Would you accept a scenario where India and Pakistan accept the current LOC..

However Kashmiri people from either side can go to the other side via open border (similar to USA and Canada) and even purchase land on either side of Kashmir at normal rates..

The government of both side focus on development of the land and people of Kashmir..

Pakistan bans all terrorist outfits operating on their soil and jails people like hafiz etc..

Indian army maintains minimum presence in Kashmir just to maintain basic law and order till the police of the state becomes up to the mark..

However you would be an Indian citizen as you are from Indian side and someone like wasim_waqar would be Pakistani citizen since they are from other side of LOC..

Would you accept the above scenario or would you prefer to keep fighting and be independent and have nothing to do with India?

First of all that isnt possible. Please dont tell me you seriously believe that whatever u said is possible?

Secondly my opinion on it is that its Unacceptable that outsiders get to decide for us. I am sorry but Your statement that "India and Pakistan will accept the LOC" tells us about the classical Indian attitude. Where is the say of Kashmiris in this?

Also, we cant allow Kashmir to be used as a buffer state between India and Pakistan. That could have tremendously bad consequences as far as well being and Indentity of Kashmiris is concerned. What if some different conflicts between india and pak arise?

Only a permanent solution can work where Kashmiris decide for themselves and clean up this mess once and for all, even if they vote to stay with India.

 

[Madplayer]

What myth man? Tell any Indian Muslim aside from the few separatists from the valley that they don't love India and you will get your answer.

Anyways, I have raised a pointed question regarding terrorism in the above post bro. Let us not divert the focus from it. Thanks.

Bro you are really naive. I have to give it to you. I know you love your country, and why not. Its only good to love your country. But please, you seem to be short of knowledge on the K-issue.

 

[Yoddha]

Where are you from?

India (Delhi).

 

[member250]

What myth man? Tell any Indian Muslim aside from the few separatists from the valley that they don't love India and you will get your answer.

Anyways, I have raised a pointed question regarding terrorism in the above post bro. Let us not divert the focus from it. Thanks.

What Indian muslims think doesn't matter for Kashmiris in valley. People protesting and throwing stones while receiving bullets isn't ISIS way no matter how much Indians try to convince themselves. Kashmir is disputed region and issue cannot be resolved till referendum is held.

Remember it was India which went to UN to resolve issue. Nehru also promised referendum to Kashmiris.

 

[Yoddha]

We will not stop until we achieve our right of self determination and/or are free of India.

Everything else is immaterial until we are free of India.

The LoC is highly scrutinised therefore people can't cross openly now.

Kashmiris don't want to be known as Indian citizens much as Palestinians don't want to be Israeli citizens.

You call yourselves the world's greatest democracy but you don't give Kashmiris the right of self-determination?

Until you agree to the UN referendum, you can't claim the moral high ground.

Kashmiris even protested at Pak v India and you should've seen the jaws of the Indian fans and journos drop!!!

India needs to leave kashmir, especially the valley. It would be a dream come true.

Killings, rapes, mass graves, 800,000 troops, half widows...if India were a Muslim country (namely Pakistan), the world would ensure they were kicked out of kashmir years ago.

You mean you won't stop with terrorism? Terrorism is fair game according to me?

 

[Yoddha]

According to you*

 

[Madplayer]

You mean you won't stop with terrorism? Terrorism is fair game according to me?

You mean you wont stop with state sponsered terrorism using army? authorised terrorism is fair game according to you?

 

[maverick85]

India (Delhi).

What's your definition of occupation?

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

You mean you won't stop with terrorism? Terrorism is fair game according to me?

India is using a white word of terrorism to scare people. The Kashmiri militants barely exist. The Kashmiri movement is indigenous.

Secondly, the biggest terrorists are the Indian occupying army killing, raping, murdering and blinding us in the name of wanting to unite Kashmir with India. Now that's terrorism.

Your troll tactics don't work because you lack knowledge and humanity to see the truth.

Go India go, leave our Kashmir!

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

India is using a white word of terrorism to scare people. The Kashmiri militants barely exist. The Kashmiri movement is indigenous.

Secondly, the biggest terrorists are the Indian occupying army killing, raping, murdering and blinding us in the name of wanting to unite Kashmir with India. Now that's terrorism.

Your troll tactics don't work because you lack knowledge and humanity to see the truth.

Go India go, leave our Kashmir! ������

Wasim Bhaee mudattoun baad aaey hain. Sub kheir tou thee ?

 

[big_gamer007]

First of all that isnt possible. Please dont tell me you seriously believe that whatever u said is possible?

Secondly my opinion on it is that its Unacceptable that outsiders get to decide for us. I am sorry but Your statement that "India and Pakistan will accept the LOC" tells us about the classical Indian attitude. Where is the say of Kashmiris in this?

Also, we cant allow Kashmir to be used as a buffer state between India and Pakistan. That could have tremendously bad consequences as far as well being and Indentity of Kashmiris is concerned. What if some different conflicts between india and pak arise?

Only a permanent solution can work where Kashmiris decide for themselves and clean up this mess once and for all, even if they vote to stay with India.

Mate if you ask me what I actually believe it's that in mine and your lifetime the Kashmir issue will still persist and nothing will change.. That is what I think realistically will happen..

The question I asked was more of a hypothetical situation..

Now I don't think a permanent solution is possible even if let's say you guys decide to stay with India then there would always be a section who would cause trouble and Pakistan would always support the troublemakers..


If you decide to go with Pakistan then also the situation would be the same as I mentioned above.. Just the troublemakers will change..

If you decide to go independent unless both India and Pakistan accept it and becomes friend and helps you guys out with trades and economically with tourism the situation won't get any better.. Only way possible for a peaceful solution is for India, Pakistan and Kashmiri people to be friends and help each other grow economically..
Without the three parties being friends and not having trust amongst each other the situation won't ever be solved..

 

[DoosraTeesra]

Kashmir should be independent country. That's the only way forward

Pakistan and India will nuke each other and kill 1.5 billion people but won't give up Kashmir to another. So it's better to make it a separate country.