Where does the current Australian bowling attack rank?

[Saj]

Brilliant pace-bowlers, skill, reverse-swing, pace and the skills of Nathan Lyon.

Where does this bowling attack rank amongst the current bowling attacks and the best over the years?

 

[UP]

The best in the current era. They don’t have much competition.

Maybe India can be compared.

 

[zacattakk]

The depth in their fast bowling attack is amazing. Hazlewood, Cummins, Pattinson, Starc and Siddle! A bowler as good as Starc would walk into many international teams yet hasn't been first choice for Australia for most of the series. To have that many quality fast bowlers at your disposal at one time may not have been seen since the mighty Windies.

 

[Junaids]

It’s a very fine attack, and actually not especially suited to English conditions.

Cummins is world class, as is Pattinson (whose workload has to be strictly managed).

Hazlewood is identical to Stuart Clark, as a sort of Poor Man’s Glenn McGrath/Ambrose/Garner/Van Der Bijl.

Nathan Lyon is actually the weak link: a very good but not quite top class off-spinner. He’s good in the fourth innings and keeps it tight in the first three, but Swann and Ashwin were both better bowlers and Ashwin’s batting and Swann’s slip catching made them more useful in the first three innings of a match.

Starc is exactly what Geoff Lemon wrote about in yesterday’s Guardian: a white Ball Specialist who lacks the accuracy to knock over the top order with a normal red ball, but who has the speed to knock over the tail.

In terms of historical equivalents:

Cummins is on a par with Gillespie and Harris.

Hazlewood is on a par with Clark or Shaun Pollock or Courtney Walsh (ie below Ambrose and McGrath).

Pattinson is like Shane Bond: excellent but fragile and needs his workload managing closely.

Lyon is what John Emburey would have been with DRS. Vettori level with the ball but not the bat.

Starc is equivalent to Mitchell Johnson in his bad years. Very quick and scary for the tail, but too easy to score off. He is Wahab Riaz, but he isn’t Trent Boult.

Siddle is equivalent to Max Walker or Jacques Kallis: a reliable fourth bowler in the attack.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Best at present.

Nowhere near the Windies attack of the 80s or the Pak attack of the 90s.

 

[shah_1]

Hazzlewood has improved so much since series against India.

Extra 3 to 4 mph makes a huge difference

 

[shah_1]

It’s a very fine attack, and actually not especially suited to English conditions.

Cummins is world class, as is Pattinson (whose workload has to be strictly managed).

Hazlewood is identical to Stuart Clark, as a sort of Poor Man’s Glenn McGrath/Ambrose/Garner/Van Der Bijl.

Nathan Lyon is actually the weak link: a very good but not quite top class off-spinner. He’s good in the fourth innings and keeps it tight in the first three, but Swann and Ashwin were both better bowlers and Ashwin’s batting and Swann’s slip catching made them more useful in the first three innings of a match.

Starc is exactly what Geoff Lemon wrote about in yesterday’s Guardian: a white Ball Specialist who lacks the accuracy to knock over the top order with a normal red ball, but who has the speed to knock over the tail.

In terms of historical equivalents:

Cummins is on a par with Gillespie and Harris.

Hazlewood is on a par with Clark or Shaun Pollock or Courtney Walsh (ie below Ambrose and McGrath).

Pattinson is like Shane Bond: excellent but fragile and needs his workload managing closely.

Lyon is what John Emburey would have been with DRS. Vettori level with the ball but not the bat.

Starc is equivalent to Mitchell Johnson in his bad years. Very quick and scary for the tail, but too easy to score off. He is Wahab Riaz, but he isn’t Trent Boult.

Siddle is equivalent to Max Walker or Jacques Kallis: a reliable fourth bowler in the attack.

Don't forget Jhye Richardson.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Hazlewood makes a lot of difference. Starc should always be there in the scheme of things. He is a strike force

 

[szundercover]

Best pace attack currently of all test teams..

 

[Manunited18]

Best at present.

Nowhere near the Windies attack of the 80s or the Pak attack of the 90s.

Definitely agree there, also the gun south african attack Steyn, Morkel , philander better

 

[Ellipsism]

Cummins, Pattinson, Hazlewood, Starc, Jhye Richardson and Stanlake. Definitely the best group of pacers in the world today.

Nathan Lyon is the best test spinner in the world as well, and has been for the last 2 years or so.

 

[Cricketrenew]

They are definitely over rated. Lyon is at best a county spinner.

Starc, Hazlewood and Cummins are good but in previosu era of Mcgrath, Gillepesie, Lee and Warne was a lot better. 90's Waqar, Wasim, Mushtaq then Akhter were better. Windies of 80's better than their fast bowling counter parts but they were lacking a spinner.

Overall all bowing squads around the world are not up to scratch of previous eras. No real standouts.
They are mundane and boring.... no one really to get you to watch over after over. NZ looks like they have potential but not living up to expectations.

 

[Hasan123]

The best attack in the world.

 

[Artaxerxes]

The best in the world right now.I don't know about their domestic cricket but I will not be surprised if there other good quicks around

 

[big_gamer007]

Only attack which can be compared to current Indian attack. 2nd best of current era in all conditions combined.

 

[Justcrazy]

This attack is good for countries like Australia , SA , NZ , England . I think they need another quality spinner to be undisputed number 1.

 

[Aman]

It's amazing how good they are at producing all these class cricketers.

 

[Saj]

Only attack which can be compared to current Indian attack. 2nd best of current era in all conditions combined.

Better than the Indian attack I reckon.

 

[Mueez]

Definitely agree there, also the gun south african attack Steyn, Morkel , philander better

Oh man that was a mouth-watering attack.

 

[big_gamer007]

Better than the Indian attack I reckon.

Indian attack in Asian conditions >>> Aussie attack in Asian conditions.
Aussie attack in rest conditions >> Indian attack in other conditions.

The difference in Asia is more than the difference other conditions, For that reason I would put Indian attack just slightly ahead.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Indian attack in Asian conditions >>> Aussie attack in Asian conditions.
Aussie attack in rest conditions >> Indian attack in other conditions.

The difference in Asia is more than the difference other conditions, For that reason I would put Indian attack just slightly ahead.

nope without bumrah yes. with bumrah india attack is better even in Australian and south african conditions. Australian attack is better in English and new zealand swinging conditions.

bumrah shami ishant jadeja/bhuvi is better than hazelwood starc cummins and Lyon/patto. The reason why they lost to England away was due to toss and kohli's ineptness when it comes to selection.

south Africa's attack at their best in home conditions was good too. steyn morkel philander and ngidi/abbott. ngidi has been figured out though.

 

[Rellu_Katta]

best in the business... easily .... India no2 ... NZ no3 ... WI no4 ... with Archer Eng no5 ...

 

[Savak]

The same bowling attack looked spineless against India in Australia.

 

[tyron_woodley]

The same bowling attack looked spineless against India in Australia.

could be India's batting too though which was good In Australia. if india pick the right players for bowling and batting india should win away in England as well which seems like a place where toss matters.

 

[Savak]

could be India's batting too though which was good In Australia. if india pick the right players for bowling and batting india should win away in England as well which seems like a place where toss matters.

The same Indian batting line up was found wanting in England against the swinging seaming dukes ball. Indians thrive on flat fast bouncy wickets but struggle badly when the wicket has juice

 

[tyron_woodley]

The same Indian batting line up was found wanting in England against the swinging seaming dukes ball. Indians thrive on flat fast bouncy wickets but struggle badly when the wicket has juice

Nope toss lost the series. India have never lost a match when they won the toss.
It wasn't the same batting lineup thought. Mayank and Shaw never played. those 2 are the actual openers. Rahul and vijay dhawan are walking wickets. I believe bumrah missed the first 2 tests as well.

 

[jnaveen1980]

The same Indian batting line up was found wanting in England against the swinging seaming dukes ball. Indians thrive on flat fast bouncy wickets but struggle badly when the wicket has juice

They lost to Sam curran's batting and Moeen Ali's bowling. Not "seaming" "spicy" condition. It is appalling India is the only country that gift wickets to Ali.

 

[tyron_woodley]

They lost to Sam curran's batting and Moeen Ali's bowling. Not "seaming" "spicy" condition. It is appalling India is the only country that gift wickets to Ali.

whole of PPF will celebrate moeen's success vicariously vs india.

 

[The Viper]

Probably best at the moment.

Its very close between India.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Now their bowling looks stronger with Labuschagne can chip in. If he hones the skill they will have an offie and a leggie, left arm pacer.

 

[sweep_shot]

This was almost the same attack that was ineffective against India at home.

I think this attack is good but it is not menacing. Aussies won for 2 reasons - 1) pathetic England batting, and 2) Steven Smith.

 

[ManFan]

This was almost the same attack that was ineffective against India at home.

I think this attack is good but it is not menacing. Aussies won for 2 reasons - 1) pathetic England batting, and 2) Steven Smith.

India only crossed 300 thrice in that series.

Australia only crossed 300 once in that series.

Bumrah was tied with Lyon for most wickets (21).

It was more the poor (and depleted) Australian batting-lineup that failed to score enough for the bowlers to defend.

Winning the toss was important too, as the side that won each match, batted first.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Possibly their best ever if Pattinson is healthy.

 

[sweep_shot]

Possibly their best ever if Pattinson is healthy.

Best ever? That's a bit stretch.

McGrath, Lee, Gillespie, Warne - this attack was better.

 

[jnaveen1980]

If Cummins improves his full length ball skills he will be even more deadly. As it is he is very potent. He will become a complete bowler if he can reverse too.

 

[ManFan]

Possibly their best ever if Pattinson is healthy.

Warnie trumps Lyon by a long way.

Pattinson hasn’t looked too threatening since his return but it may just be him being overly-cautious.

Hazlewood is a decent replacement for McGrath but not quite at the latter’s level yet.

I’d say Gillespie and Cummins are almost the same.

Starc is inferior to Lee in terms of impact since Lee could occasionally knock over the top-order as well and had more variety.

 

[Ab Fan]

Cummins is brilliant. A few more years of great performance and he will be in my Australian XI alongside McGrath and Warne.

Hazelwood was brilliant in England, it seems the break has helped him personally and brought the better of him in test cricket. Till now he is a poor man's McGrath though but he can progress with more performances.

Starc and Lee belong to the same club- ATG Odi bowlers but just good test bowlers. 300 test wickets!

Lyon had an overall good career, considering he played half of his games on Australian soil. But currently he is on decline.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Warnie trumps Lyon by a long way.

Pattinson hasn’t looked too threatening since his return but it may just be him being overly-cautious.

Hazlewood is a decent replacement for McGrath but not quite at the latter’s level yet.

I’d say Gillespie and Cummins are almost the same.

Starc is inferior to Lee in terms of impact since Lee could occasionally knock over the top-order as well and had more variety.

Cummins = Mcgrath
Pattinson > Lee
Gillespie = Hazlewood
Warne > Lyon

Pattinson has been great. Not sure what you're watching.

 

[ManFan]

Cummins = Mcgrath
Pattinson > Lee
Gillespie = Hazlewood
Warne > Lyon

Pattinson has been great. Not sure what you're watching.

5 wickets across 2 Tests at 33.42 is not “great”, it’s decent.

Which is why I was saying perhaps he might have been told by the management to bowl within himself to not risk injury.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Cummins = Mcgrath
Pattinson > Lee
Gillespie = Hazlewood
Warne > Lyon

Pattinson has been great. Not sure what you're watching.

no he isn't. he has been average so far. He is a home track bully. I would pick jhye richardson if he ever was fit over him. Jhye is better than starc and patto.

hazelwood is as good as Gillespie though. I Agree. starc is definitely the preferred bowler in general over Pattinson regardless of form because australia loves pace. They will never cut starc. Starc may go for runs but he can clean up the tail.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

This is the best ever aussie pace attack.

Hazlewood=gillespie>pascoe
Lillee=Cummins<mcgrath(this can change)
Starc>thomson>brett lee
Warne>lyon
And australia never had a substitue like pattinson.

 

[MenInG]

James Anderson, the England fast bowler, lavished praise on Australia's pace attack, crediting them for the team's success in the 2019 Ashes.

Anderson, who was ruled out of the series with a calf injury, spoke highly of the relentlessness and consistency of the Australian bowling attack, particularly of Pat Cummins, who is No.1 on the MRF Tyres ICC Test Rankings for Bowlers.

"Their bowlers have just been pretty relentless – so consistent in the areas they've bowled," said the England pacer. "Cummins is the best bowler in the world because he hits the top of off stump at 85mph-plus regularly, and he's got a really good plan B [in that he] bowls a good bouncer. It's quite simple what they do, but it's really effective because they do it so consistently."

The 37-year-old added that going forward, England must learn how to strike a balance between all formats of the game. Their major aim over the last four years had been winning the ICC Men's Cricket World Cup 2019 at home, and having done that, Anderson wants them to "give equal attention" to both red-ball and white-ball cricket now.

"Obviously the last four years has been a real focus on one-day cricket, trying to win the World Cup. We've now done that," he pointed out. "I think we need to find a good balance.

"We've kind of been one or the other. In my career, it's been Test priority in the first bit and then this last four-year cycle has been a push for the white-ball stuff. We need to find a balance, it's as simple as that. We've got to try to give equal attention to both."

In his column for an English newspaper, Anderson said he is trying to regain maximum fitness ahead of England's upcoming assignments, which include tours of New Zealand and South Africa, followed by a home series against West Indies. He insisted he is not thinking about retirement, instead drawning inspiration from ex-Manchester United star Ryan Giggs, who played at the elite level even when he was 40.

"When I start this rehab, I'm going to try and investigate every possible avenue of what do I need to do at my age to keep myself in good shape," he said. "I feel in really good condition. I feel as fit as I ever have. It's just the calf keeps twanging.

"Trying to improve my skills with the ball, work hard at my batting, and try to find every possible thing to help me stay fit"
"I'm going to look at every possible thing I can to make sure I can play for as long as possible. I'll look at how other sportspeople have done it throughout their careers to keep going into their late 30s. Whether there's anything specific I can do, diet, gym programme, supplements, whatever it might be. Because I've still got a real hunger and desire to play cricket. I still love the game and still feel like I can offer something to this team and still have the skills and can bowl quick enough to have a positive effect.

"I still feel like I can be the best bowler in the world. So as long as I've got that mentality I'm going to keep pushing myself. Keep trying to improve my skills with the ball, work hard at my batting, and try to find every possible thing to help me stay fit."

https://www.icc-cricket.com/news/1340443

 

[Ram Shekhar]

It’s a very fine attack, and actually not especially suited to English conditions.

Cummins is world class, as is Pattinson (whose workload has to be strictly managed).

Hazlewood is identical to Stuart Clark, as a sort of Poor Man’s Glenn McGrath/Ambrose/Garner/Van Der Bijl.

Nathan Lyon is actually the weak link: a very good but not quite top class off-spinner. He’s good in the fourth innings and keeps it tight in the first three, but Swann and Ashwin were both better bowlers and Ashwin’s batting and Swann’s slip catching made them more useful in the first three innings of a match.

Starc is exactly what Geoff Lemon wrote about in yesterday’s Guardian: a white Ball Specialist who lacks the accuracy to knock over the top order with a normal red ball, but who has the speed to knock over the tail.

In terms of historical equivalents:

Cummins is on a par with Gillespie and Harris.

Hazlewood is on a par with Clark or Shaun Pollock or Courtney Walsh (ie below Ambrose and McGrath).

Pattinson is like Shane Bond: excellent but fragile and needs his workload managing closely.

Lyon is what John Emburey would have been with DRS. Vettori level with the ball but not the bat.

Starc is equivalent to Mitchell Johnson in his bad years. Very quick and scary for the tail, but too easy to score off. He is Wahab Riaz, but he isn’t Trent Boult.

Siddle is equivalent to Max Walker or Jacques Kallis: a reliable fourth bowler in the attack.

POTW for me! Excellent comparisons. Felt as if I were typing..

 

[Swashbuckler]

Around the same level as India, in SC like conditions India is ahead while Aussies better everywhere else. It is like tennis where Nadal is best on slow surfaces (even slow paced hard courts) and Federer (also Djokovic since he emerged) in faster conditions. Besides Australia's depth in pace department is similar to India's depth in spin department, Lyon is their only class spinner while for us if Bumrah gets injured our level will drop. If Aussies can get a back up option for Lyon or India get another ace frontline quick bowler, now that will decide which bowling unit is the absolute best.

 

[geraltofrivia]

best pace attack. 2nd best overall attack after india (due to ashwin/jadeja/kuldeep in asian conditions).

outside asia - australia is best
in asia - india is best
overall - india as the difference between india and australia's pace attack is much smaller than their spin attacks (australia dont really have a 2nd or 3rd spinner which is required for asia)

 

[SLcric123]

Australia and India have the best pace attacks.

South Africa are brilliant but still to prove in Asia. NZ are excellent also.

 

[Saj]

Best ever? That's a bit stretch.

McGrath, Lee, Gillespie, Warne - this attack was better.

Agree.

That attack of Warne, McGrath, Lee and Gillespie was absolutely brilliant.

 

[Rellu_Katta]

can argue about Gillespie and Lee being at par with Hazelwood and cummins but McGrath and Warne were miles ahead of any other bowler in tht aussie line up ... so the old was proper gold

 

[sweep_shot]

There is not a single present bowling attack that can be compared to great Aussie attack from the early-2000's. Even their backups were extremely good.

 

[Hasan123]

Cummins = Mcgrath
Pattinson > Lee
Gillespie = Hazlewood
Warne > Lyon

Pattinson has been great. Not sure what you're watching.

You think Cummins can surpass McGrath?

 

[Hasan123]

It would take a massive decline for Hazelwood and Cummins not to surprise Gillespie in tests.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Ryan Harris, Johnson, hilfenhaus, siddle vs cummins, hazelwood, patto and starc

i know siddle played with both attacks but he primarily played a key role under punter and clarke's team aka the former bowling attack.
patto did play with the previous attack as well but he was injured and out for a long time so I included him in the modern Australian attack instead.

is Australia's current attack really better than the previous one with prime Johnson, harris, prime siddle and workhorse hilfenhaus?


if I had to rank them in order based on ability and impact then;

1) cummins
2) harris
3) Johnson
4) hazelwood
5) Pattinson
6) starc
7) hilfenhaus
8) siddle

What do you guys think?

 

[MenInG]

Former Australia spinner Steve O'Keefe calls for three-man spin attack for Asian Tests

Former Test tweaker Steve O’Keefe says Australia should consider playing three frontline spinners in the same XI on their eight-Test tour of Asia next year as they look to end their decade-long drought in the subcontinent.

Australia are scheduled to play away Tests against India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka in 2022, which is set to include a return to Pakistan for the first time since 1998 having recently played them on neutral territory in the UAE.

O’Keefe, who famously took a match-winning haul of 14 wickets on Australia’s 2017 tour of India, says Mitchell Swepson and Ashton Agar are both ready to support frontline tweaker Nathan Lyon on the subcontinent, and suggested Agar’s batting ability could allow selectors to pick all three in the same side.

“I think we’re in as good a place as we’ve ever been from a bowling point of view,” said O’Keefe, who has confirmed he will play another season in the KFC BBL with the Sydney Sixers.

“With Ashton batting as well as he is, you could play all three.

“I think we need to start looking at three spinners as well as a quick and a medium pacer. That would be my five bowling options in some of the conditions you encounter over there.

“In the past, we’ve generally gone, ‘we’ll play what’s best for us, which is three fast bowlers’. But I think it’s so hard in that heat and those conditions for those guys to have success.”

The last of O’Keefe’s nine Tests came in Bangladesh four years ago, when he joined Lyon and Agar in a three-man spin attack alongside frontline paceman, Pat Cummins, and seam-bowling allrounder, Hilton Cartwright.

The emergence of Cameron Green means Australia will likely have an extra seam-bowling option in their top six next year, while Agar showed his all-round ability with a hundred in the Marsh Sheffield Shield last season.

Swepson is currently the second Test spinner in line behind Lyon following a breakout Shield campaign last summer, when he took 32 wickets in five games as Queensland won the title.

Finger spinners have generally had more success in Asia than leg-spin bowlers, with legendary wrist spinners like Shane Warne and Mushtaq Ahmed both having better career records outside of Asia than in it.

But O’Keefe believes picking three slow bowlers in the same side would allow Swepson to be deployed as an attacking weapon and says Agar’s control as a left-arm finger spinner would allow both Lyon and Swepson to thrive.

“Players in the subcontinent will pray on any loose deliveries … and that’s hard with leg-spin because you’ve got to be so accurate to build pressure,” he said.

“But the beauty of playing Nathan Lyon with Ashton Agar or if you went with all three, Nathan is an attacking, over-the-top spin bowler who can be aggressive, then someone like Ashton could really control (the game) and bring the run rate down to two or three an over.

“When you look at the Indian spinners (Ravichandran Ashwin and Ravindra Jadeja) bowling well, that’s genuinely how they work … one will contain and one will be the wicket-taker.

“So I think it’s important for those guys to get some opportunities to bowl together, whether that’s in some lead-up games for Aussie A or tour games over there, to get the synergy right of bowling together. I think they’ll have success.”

Agar, who is over six-foot-tall, spoke this week about how he’s learning to alleviate the impact his tall frame has on his bowling, which can produce important bounce in Australia but can be far less effective in spinning conditions.

O’Keefe said producing extra bounce was a handicap Lyon has been able to overcome on recent tours of Asia, adding the Western Australian is already showing an ability to do the same.

“The challenge for Nathan at times was to hit the stumps,” O’Keefe said of the off-spinner, who has averaged just 22 from his past eight Tests in Asia compared to 43 from his first 11 Tests in the subcontinent.

“Because he spun the ball, got so much bounce and was a bit taller, it is a skill to be able to hit the stumps when there’s a lot going on in the wicket. Nathan, in his last Test in Bangladesh, he really worked it out. He got a lot more LBWs, he wasn’t afraid to bowl ugly, bowl square spinners and slide the ball on a bit fuller and a bit quicker.

“You can’t change your height, but you can certainly change your arm and Ashton’s doing that. He’s bowling a bit more round-arm, he’s bowling some seam-up stuff where the ball just skids on.

“I think he’s well placed. He doesn’t just bowl the same ball every ball, he really thinks about it and he’s a student of spin. With all this international experience and with him trying new things and having some success, it’ll really put him in good stead when these tours come.”

https://www.cricket.com.au/news/ste...-lyon-ashton-agar-mitchell-swepson/2021-08-09