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Which English Test side was stronger? Michael Vaughan's led side? Or Strauss and Cook's led side?
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Ab Fan
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England between 2009-12 was best because of presence of Graeme Swann.
Heisenberg111
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2006 side had Panesar and Shaun Udal winning England the 3rd test in Mumbai to draw the series 1-1. Albeit Freddie Flintoff was the captain in that series.
Hasan123
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Andrew Strauss team definitely. They were a tough nut to crack and had more consistent success.
Robert
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Vaughan’s side because it had the fast bowlers. And the best skipper.
Strauss next best - took England to world #1 with excellent batting and Swann. But lost heavily in UAE.
Hyperion66
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Vaughan's side was more exciting to watch, however Straus' side was more clinical and better overall side.
Savak
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Strauss team beat Australia in Australia, that counts big.
Hasan123
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Anderson and Broad are better than Harmison,Hoggard,Simon Jones, and Flintoff.
Robert
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I disagree. For a start there are only two of them, they were slower than all except Hoggard, and Hoggard travelled better than them. I've seen plenty of times A&B reduced to powerlessness while Vaughan's quartet were always effective.
Hasan123
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It doesn't matter about pace. I would rather have Anderson and Broad then Vaughans attack.
Heisenberg111
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I would like to add that Vaughan's team defeated a much stronger Australian side. And Vaughan's captaincy in 2005 was excellent too.
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Strauss' team was better. Vaughan's team was more charismatic. But Vaughan was frequently injured. There were always other guys leading in place of him like Flintoff, Strauss, Trescothick
Heisenberg111
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England's results under Vaughan/Flintoff from 2003-2006
Drew 2-2 with SA at home in 2003.
Lost to SL away 0-1 in 2003/04
Won 3-0 against a decent WI team away in 2004( England's first series win in the Caribbean in 36 years)
Won 3-0 against NZ at home in 2004
Won 4-0 against WI at home in 2004
Won 2-1 against a strong SA team away in 2004/05
Won 2-1 against GOAT Aussies at home in 2005
Lost 0-2 to Pakistan away in 2005
Drew 1-1 against a strong Indian team away in 2006
Now to England's results under Strauss/Cook from 2009-2013
Lost 0-1 against WI away in 2009
Won 2-1 against Australia at home in 2009
Drew 1-1 against a strong SA away in 2009/10
Won 3-1 against Pakistan at home in 2010
Won 3-1 against Australia away in 2010/11
Won 4-0 against India at home in 2011
Lost 0-3 against Pakistan away in UAE in 2012
Drew 1-1 against SL away in 2012
Lost 0-2 against SA at home in 2012
Won 2-1 against India away in 2012
Won 3-0 against Australia at home in 2013
So 2 series losses for Vaughn/Flintoff's side compared to 3 series losses for Strauss/Cook's side.
Strauss/Cook's team did well in India/SL compared to Vaughan/Flintoff's team, but Vaughan/Flintoff's team did better against SA at home and away and against WI away too.
Drew 2-2 with SA at home in 2003.
Lost to SL away 0-1 in 2003/04
Won 3-0 against a decent WI team away in 2004( England's first series win in the Caribbean in 36 years)
Won 3-0 against NZ at home in 2004
Won 4-0 against WI at home in 2004
Won 2-1 against a strong SA team away in 2004/05
Won 2-1 against GOAT Aussies at home in 2005
Lost 0-2 to Pakistan away in 2005
Drew 1-1 against a strong Indian team away in 2006
Now to England's results under Strauss/Cook from 2009-2013
Lost 0-1 against WI away in 2009
Won 2-1 against Australia at home in 2009
Drew 1-1 against a strong SA away in 2009/10
Won 3-1 against Pakistan at home in 2010
Won 3-1 against Australia away in 2010/11
Won 4-0 against India at home in 2011
Lost 0-3 against Pakistan away in UAE in 2012
Drew 1-1 against SL away in 2012
Lost 0-2 against SA at home in 2012
Won 2-1 against India away in 2012
Won 3-0 against Australia at home in 2013
So 2 series losses for Vaughn/Flintoff's side compared to 3 series losses for Strauss/Cook's side.
Strauss/Cook's team did well in India/SL compared to Vaughan/Flintoff's team, but Vaughan/Flintoff's team did better against SA at home and away and against WI away too.
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Right, I also believe that Vaughan's side is a bit underrated.
Yes, but they were also whitewashed by Pakistan in the UAE, even with Swann and Monty playing.
Losing in the West Indies goes against Strauss's side big time. Vaughan's side beat a stronger West Indies team 3-0 in their den.
Savak
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Michael Vaughan's captaincy got interrupted by injury
Savak
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Vaughan lost against India at home in 2007
Vaughan lost against SA at home in 2008 which forced his resignation
Bigboii
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also won against India in India
(but they lost in UAE against Pakistan if I remember correctly)
Heisenberg111
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If you read my post, I specifically mentioned the 2003-2006 period. Post 2006, it wasn't the same team anymore, with none of Hoggard, Harmison and Jones playing. Flintoff only played the odd game here and there and didn't play in the India series in 2007, which England lost.
Robert
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Pace always matters. Anderson cannot test a batman’s back foot game like Harmison could. Look at how Ishant has won matches on dead tracks where A&B have been ineffective. Being able to hurt the opposition batsmen gives a psychological advantage.
What we have to remember about A&B is that they have played through to an era where a lot of batters cannot play seam and orthodox swing. In earlier times their records would have been less impressive looking. I rate Hoggard as high as them because he bowled at stronger batters.
Ab Fan
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Vaughan was a better captain than Strauss, that is certain. But I don't think the 2009-12 team was inferior to 2003-06 team.
2009-12 had very strong batting lineup and spin was pretty potent, Anderson was good till then although Broad was still inconsistent.
2009-12 had very strong batting lineup and spin was pretty potent, Anderson was good till then although Broad was still inconsistent.
Heisenberg111
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One result that both teams have in common is that both were thrashed by Pakistan, Vaughan's team in Pakistan in 2005 and Strauss' team in 2012 in UAE. Shows that England have always found it tough against Pakistan.
Hasan123
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Harmison has pace but not much longevity, Hoggard also had not much longevity. They may have been bowling at what you perceive better players but there are still top players in this era which Anderson and Broad have continually dismissed. I'm sure if you ask players who they would rather face, it would be Hoggard and Harmison.
Last Monetarist
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The debate kinda loses any credibility when you have a poster claim with a straight face that Hoggard is as good as Jimmy Anderson.
Hasan123
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Apprentley he bowled to better batsmen but Anderson having Tendulkar,Kohli,Michael Clarke,and other top batters dancing and hoping around counts for nothing!
Varun
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Vaughan lost interest after the 2005 home series win vs Australia, meeting the queen etc.
Strauss/Cook's side should basically be labelled Andy Flower's side, and it had more success - including beating Australia in Australia and India in India, and didn't leave any drunkards or couch potatoes in its wake.
Strauss/Cook's side should basically be labelled Andy Flower's side, and it had more success - including beating Australia in Australia and India in India, and didn't leave any drunkards or couch potatoes in its wake.
Saurav
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That 2005 Ashes win is overrated.Eng won matches in which McGrath didn't play
Varun
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Middling cricketers like Vaughan, Flintoff, Giles and Harmison rightly recognized it as nirvana and milked it accordingly.
The next time they faced Australia, the result was 5-zip.
Robert
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I very much doubt that they would prefer to face Harmi who was capable of damaging them. Langer said the hardest bowler he faced was Flintoff, because it hurt so much.
As for the longevity I don’t see this as a useful indicator. A&B have benefited by playing almost no cricket except tests, allowing them to extend their careers.
Robert
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Thread is about teams not individuals.
Varun
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That's why you have to look at things holistically. Langer may have found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time in that one Ashes series but he himself was a champion opener for Australia for up to a decade, while Flintoff was good only 3 years out of 11, and his stats reflect that.
Robert
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Ponting, Hayden, Langer, Gilchrist, Warne and McGrath were nirvana to face? Dear God.
That series was titanic. England played out of their skins against a side of champions and three matches went to the wire. It was nerve-shredding.
Some of the Australian side was creaking a little - they were too confident and paid the price against a powerful team with momentum behind them.
By 2006/7 the Australians had reinforced, while England had lost inspirational skipper Vaughan, plus Trescothick and Simon Jones. They were led poorly by Flintoff who was unsuited to captaincy and started drinking heavily.
Robert
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Stats aren’t everything. Flintoff took wickets at the opposite end to him by being nasty and painful. Players were so keen to get out of the firing line that they took risks against Anderson or someone.
Heisenberg111
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England were 1 wicket away from winning the 3rd test at Old Trafford, which McGrath did play and in the 5th test also which McGrath played England had a good chance of winning because of KP's heroics, if weather hadn't intervened.
mastimasti
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Haha yes, not sure how that was missed.
Strauss captains England to a series win down under which imo has always made Strauss the best modern English Ashes captain. Then Cook captained the side to a series win in India, arguably more impressive beating India in 2012 than Australia in 2011.
The team was also great to watch, peak KP, Cook has the best opener on the planet, Jimmy and Broad developing their partnership and Swann who was probably best spinner on the planet for a period.
Heisenberg111
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Refer to post#21
Heisenberg111
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People just look at their Ashes 2005 and overlook their other fine away series wins such as beating a decent WI team 3-0 away in 2004 and winning in the Caribbean after 36 years. Also their 2-1 win in SA against a strong SA side in 2004/05.
In comparison, Strauss's team lost 0-1 in WI in 2009 and only managed to draw in SA in 2009/10, by the skin of their teeth.
Yes, Pakistan have been their bogey side for quite while now.
Savak
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Losing the ashes in 2005, 2009 & 2010/11 hurts Ponting big time.
Lol Vaughan badly embarrassed Ponting with his planning, strategies, tactics on the 2005 Ashes series. Ponting in the end has legacy of someone who benefited from having a world class team but was still a poor captain
Lol Vaughan badly embarrassed Ponting with his planning, strategies, tactics on the 2005 Ashes series. Ponting in the end has legacy of someone who benefited from having a world class team but was still a poor captain
Heisenberg111
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Vaughan outsmarted Ponting in 05 Ashes but Ponting was not a poor captain by any means. He is the only captain in history to have won 2 ODI WC's and 2 CT's.
street cricketer
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I would say Vaughan's side arguably made the greatest achievement in England's cricketing history in the modern era beating that legendary Australian team in the 2005 Ashes. To put that feat into context, that Australian team was so crazy good that they used to rock up to the shores of their opponents and proceed to smash them in their own home. Only India had the better of Australia in their home (India) while England and Sri Lanka (to a small extent) provided them a challenge in their respective homes. All other teams got smashed by the Australians irrespective of the venue of the match. People often think South Africa have a good record in Australia but they had a minnowesque record when that Australian team was at its peak, they played Australia 14 times and won a single match, a dead rubber at home during that phase. Their fortunes improved only after McGrath and later Warne retired and Australia suddenly had a huge void in their bowling attack. So to beat THAT Australian team, even if it was only at their home, was probably greatest achievement of England in the modern era.
England of early 2010s won a series in Australia under Strauss and in India under Cook after a very long time. Winning in those two places is never easy but it must be remembered that they came when their opponents were at their weakest phase - Australia struggling to cope up with the retirement of their legends except an over the hill Ponting and having to field the likes of Hilfenhaus, trash version of Johnson, Marcus North, Nathan Hauritz and Michael Beer in their bowling attack; India having suffered two humiliating back to back 4-0 whitewashes in England and Australia with an over the hill team just an year before but deciding to field the same aged team against a young and excellent English side at home, they proceeded to predictably lose the series which prompted nearly half the team to either get dropped permanently or retire after the next year. However, even though McGrath missed some part of the 2005 Ashes, that Australian team was still close to its peak and so beating them at home was a far greater achievement imo.
That said, as an overall team and on a man to man comparison, the English side of early 2010s was probably their best ever side. Anderson, Broad and Swann were very good, and the likes of Strauss, Cook, Trott, Pietersen and Bell were all excellent players capable of producing magic moments. So Vaughan's side achieved the pinnacle of England's cricketing achievements while the early 2010s England side was solid and well covered in all bases, and probably their best ever side on an all round basis.
England of early 2010s won a series in Australia under Strauss and in India under Cook after a very long time. Winning in those two places is never easy but it must be remembered that they came when their opponents were at their weakest phase - Australia struggling to cope up with the retirement of their legends except an over the hill Ponting and having to field the likes of Hilfenhaus, trash version of Johnson, Marcus North, Nathan Hauritz and Michael Beer in their bowling attack; India having suffered two humiliating back to back 4-0 whitewashes in England and Australia with an over the hill team just an year before but deciding to field the same aged team against a young and excellent English side at home, they proceeded to predictably lose the series which prompted nearly half the team to either get dropped permanently or retire after the next year. However, even though McGrath missed some part of the 2005 Ashes, that Australian team was still close to its peak and so beating them at home was a far greater achievement imo.
That said, as an overall team and on a man to man comparison, the English side of early 2010s was probably their best ever side. Anderson, Broad and Swann were very good, and the likes of Strauss, Cook, Trott, Pietersen and Bell were all excellent players capable of producing magic moments. So Vaughan's side achieved the pinnacle of England's cricketing achievements while the early 2010s England side was solid and well covered in all bases, and probably their best ever side on an all round basis.
Savak
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I don't rate ponting as a captain, his record suffered when his star players left him. Tactically he was a poor captain. He had the authority and respect of his team but without the players he had from 2002 to 2007, his record might have been even worse
Bilal7
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Andrew Strauss captained the best English team. I still remember the series in the UAE, being very happy that we had them five down but then getting ****** when I saw Prior saunter out with his average of 45.
Strauss
Cook
Trott
KP
Bell
Morgan
Prior
Swann
Broad
Anderson
That other seamer they had.
Top side. Too bad Pakistan destroyed them and South Africa danced on the corpse.
Strauss
Cook
Trott
KP
Bell
Morgan
Prior
Swann
Broad
Anderson
That other seamer they had.
Top side. Too bad Pakistan destroyed them and South Africa danced on the corpse.
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Robert
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Vaughan’s side beat SA in their back yard.
Nikhil_cric
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Vaughan's side beat a very weak SA side .
Bigboii
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Except for Morgan and to some extent trout this is a beast lineup
Robert
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The strongest England sides were...
Hammond’s team in Australia in 1932. Very powerful batting with hundred-hundreds man LEG Ames behind the sticks, and the prototype four-prong pace attack using revolutionary hostile short-pitched bowling.
Hutton’s in the early fifties. Hutton himself, Compton, May, Evans the keeper, and a plethora of worldie bowlers - Trueman, Bedser, Statham, Tyson, Laker, Lock, Wardle.
I would mention the early seventies side - Boycott and Edrich opening, Greig, Knott, Snow, Underwood - but the6 lost to India home and away.
Nikhil_cric
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I'd rate MV as the best English captain I ever saw but his players were all hit and miss especially the X factor players on Flintoff and Harmison. They didn't travel a whole lot better either. Got smashed in Pakistan and whitewashed in Australia . English team from 2009-2013 was better imo
Robert
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Smith, Kallis, Pollock, Ntini, Steyn were “very weak”. Ok.....
Bigboii
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Pre WW -2 teams not allowed...
Hyperion66
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Wow thanks for this post. So actually Vaughan's team was better than what we give them credit for. These are some super impressive stats.
Heisenberg111
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Yup, it was a strong SA side, probably as strong as the SA team, Strauss's team drew with in 2009/10 by the skin of their teeth.
Robert
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Vaughan beat WI with Lara and Chanderpaul 0-3 away as well as the SA win.
Strauss lost 3-0 in UAE and 1-0 to a weak WI side away.
The Australia of the Strauss tour was a team in decline with no McGrath or Warne, Ponting over the hill and Johnson in scattergun mode.
Heisenberg111
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Exactly results wise, England from 2003-2006 was as good as England from 2009-2013, if not better.
Heisenberg111
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Only Hammond's team is pre WW2. English sides of the 1950's and 1970's are post WW2 and they were very strong sides.
street cricketer
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Oh, I knew you would come up with the old English sides Rob!
I should have included a rider to my post terming it as the best English team post 1970.
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In 2004, Pollock was past it and Steyn was a newbie. So yes, that Saffer side was not particularly strong
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England's Ashes win was certainly against one of the weakest Australian teams ever but their home record was pretty weak too. Drew with lanka at home in 2006, lost to India at home in 2007, lost to the Saffers at home in 2008 etc. They were not consistent at all .
As street cricketer mentions, on a man-to-man basis the Strauss team is stronger with a grittier batting lineup, two quality spinners in Swann and Panesar, a better keeper-batsman in Prior and a world-class new ball pairing of Anderson and Broad.
Vaughan was a better, more creative captain and his side had more flair compared to Strauss/Flower's dour, attritional style of cricket. He had bowlers with more pace and ability to extract bounce from flat wickets like Harmison, Flintoff and Jones. But Harmison was mentally weak, Flintoff's bulimia and drinking prevented him from achieving his potential, while Jones' knee injuries ended his career. Hoggard was underrated, his wicket-tally is made up of a large percentage of top order batsmen but don't think he offered much on flat pitches with the Kookaburra.
If we purely compare the peaks, let's be honest the 2009-13 team beat poor Australian and Indian teams going through transitions. They also shelled a home series in 2012 to South Africa. Vaughan's team stopped an ATG Australia team in its tracks, beat South Africa away and drew away against a stronger India team in 2006, while not losing at home between 2003-2006.
Vaughan was a better, more creative captain and his side had more flair compared to Strauss/Flower's dour, attritional style of cricket. He had bowlers with more pace and ability to extract bounce from flat wickets like Harmison, Flintoff and Jones. But Harmison was mentally weak, Flintoff's bulimia and drinking prevented him from achieving his potential, while Jones' knee injuries ended his career. Hoggard was underrated, his wicket-tally is made up of a large percentage of top order batsmen but don't think he offered much on flat pitches with the Kookaburra.
If we purely compare the peaks, let's be honest the 2009-13 team beat poor Australian and Indian teams going through transitions. They also shelled a home series in 2012 to South Africa. Vaughan's team stopped an ATG Australia team in its tracks, beat South Africa away and drew away against a stronger India team in 2006, while not losing at home between 2003-2006.
Heisenberg111
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You shouldn't consider Vaughan's team's results that came after 2006, because post 2006 it wasn't the same team anymore, with none of Hoggard, Harmison and Jones playing. Flintoff and Harmison only played the odd game here and there and didn't play in the India series in 2007, which England lost.
So when looking at peak Vaughan's team one should only consider the 2003-2006 period.
Robert
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OK. The early seventies boys were very good with Snow and Willis, Underwood, Greig as the AR, Knott as keeper and some tough top-order batting.
street cricketer
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In your opinion, were they better than the England side of 2010-13 though?
Heisenberg111
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Just thought that I should post the W/L ratios for both the teams.
England's W/L ratio = 3.0 ( from 1st May 2003- 31 Aug 2006)
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...2003;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team
England's W/L ratio = 2.5 ( from 1st Jan 2009- 31 Aug 2013)
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...2009;spanval2=span;template=results;type=team
So the English team from 2003-2006 comes out on top as they have the better W/L ratio.
I took the start date as 1st May for the 2003-2006 period, because thats when Vaughan's captaincy tenure started. And the closing date 31st August denotes the end of England's home summer in both 2006 and 2013. Ironically both the teams proceeded to lose 0-5 in their next Ashes series in Australia after this closing date.
England's W/L ratio = 3.0 ( from 1st May 2003- 31 Aug 2006)
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...2003;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team
England's W/L ratio = 2.5 ( from 1st Jan 2009- 31 Aug 2013)
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...2009;spanval2=span;template=results;type=team
So the English team from 2003-2006 comes out on top as they have the better W/L ratio.
I took the start date as 1st May for the 2003-2006 period, because thats when Vaughan's captaincy tenure started. And the closing date 31st August denotes the end of England's home summer in both 2006 and 2013. Ironically both the teams proceeded to lose 0-5 in their next Ashes series in Australia after this closing date.
Robert
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Probably. The bowling had more strength. The openers were very tough. Amiss would be recognised as ATG, had Lillee not sorted him out.
These stats, show that Vaughan's team's peak was shorter but stronger than the peak of Strauss/Cook's team.
Heisenberg111
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The 70's English team lost to India home and away in 1971 and 1972/73, but later beat India home and away too in 1974 and 1976/77. They were a powerful side.
Ab Fan
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They still missed Swann which is why they failed to beat SL and Pak away.
Heisenberg111
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England with Swann were still whitewashed in the UAE in 2012. Beating SL in SL in 2003/04 wasn't easy at all, when Muralitharan was at his peak, doubt Swann would have made any difference to the series result there, but maybe he could have made some difference in the 2005 series in Pakistan.
England was strong in the 70's but very average in the 80's and 90's.
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Average is too much praise. Between 1985-1989 they won just five tests out of fifty played. That’s minnow status.
Robert
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Also beat Australia away, and held Sobers’ boys in WI due to a ten wicket haul by Greig bowling off-breaks.
James
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I think the 2009-2013 side was better.
Strauss and Cook won three consecutive Ashes (with the most comprehensive of these series wins coming away from home in Australia), they whitewashed India to become the number one Test side, and they then finally achieved the magnificent feat of beating India in India.
They couldn’t beat the West Indies, and they acquired a bogey side in South Africa.
But the dominance over Australia and India is enough on its own to clinch it for me.
I also rate Anderson and Broad higher than Harmison and Hoggard. KP post-2008 meanwhile might have regressed a little (from the world’s best batsman to a merely very good one) but he was still world-class.
Strauss and Cook won three consecutive Ashes (with the most comprehensive of these series wins coming away from home in Australia), they whitewashed India to become the number one Test side, and they then finally achieved the magnificent feat of beating India in India.
They couldn’t beat the West Indies, and they acquired a bogey side in South Africa.
But the dominance over Australia and India is enough on its own to clinch it for me.
I also rate Anderson and Broad higher than Harmison and Hoggard. KP post-2008 meanwhile might have regressed a little (from the world’s best batsman to a merely very good one) but he was still world-class.
Why do you think South Africa were their bogey side? While Vaughan's team had the better of SA home and away.
Heisenberg111
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They did beat WI actually at home 2-0 in 2009, but lost 0-1 to WI away, the same year. The only team, they didn't beat in a Test series from 2009-2013 was South Africa.
Ab Fan
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South Africa were a top notch team between 2009-12 and with Philander's inclusion in 2011, they became even bigger force particularly in SENA where Philander was probably more lethal than even Steyn.
Mid- 2000s SA team was not at same level as Pollock was past his prime and Steyn was a newbie. Batting also had only Kallis and Smith.
James
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During the Vaughan era: South Africa were constantly chopping & changing players up and down the team, and their main threat with the ball — Shaun Pollock — was winding his career down. Amla, ABDV, and the future ATG Steyn meanwhile were all showing great promise, but they were relatively new on the scene.
Whereas during the Strauss era: Smith was at the peak of his captaincy powers, Amla and ABDV were approaching their respective personal bests, Kallis was having a late career bloom, and SA had gradually built a side together that was much more settled — even in the spin bowling department, which was a first for them! — and England could not cope with the diverse pace bowling trio of Morkel (our batters can’t play steeping bounce), Philander (our batters are fidgety and impatient), and of course Steyn (although to be fair, not many batters in ANY team could play him particularly well!!)
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