Who's the greater captain between MS Dhoni and Imran Khan?

[Tusker]

No Dhoni did not. He suffered two consecutive whitewashes of 4-0 against England and Australia, which by itself should be enough to end this argument.

The whitewash against Australia in 2011 was especially glaring, given that India visited Australia in 2004 and 2007 under Ganguly and Kumble and were competitive in both series, yet in this one lost comprehensively with a full strength side and looked utterly hopeless. And not to mention the instances of Dhoni failing to close games that were in India's pocket, such as in NZ and SA in 2013/2014, and Dhoni's regular lackadaisical attitude in the field letting games meander on, something Imran was never accused of.

Both those series had a lot of players who were way past their prime .... to call that as a full strength team is a joke. Imran never had such problems as he was literally the owner of the team.

 

[Monsee]

What is funny is that we have seen numerous Indian supporters (on PP) calling for Dhoni's head for years in Tests, not just last couple of years...yet here we are people comparing him to Imran and refusing to accept he had some glaring weaknesses in his leadership!

There is a reason why I am yet to read much criticism of technical aspects of Imran's captaincy besides that he was authoritarian and strongly controlled the team...which obviously makes sense due to the corrupt PCB system.

Can an Indian supporter name me a couple of experts, non-Indian off course, that thought Dhoni as a skipper in Tests was so good that he surpassed Imran and secondly included him as skipper of an all time XI?

 

[subshakerz]

Both those series had a lot of players who were way past their prime .... to call that as a full strength team is a joke. Imran never had such problems as he was literally the owner of the team.

Regardless of it they were past their prime or not, you cannot just brush aside losing eight foreign tests matches in a row. Especially when you are so careful combing through Imran's record.

Let's make this simple:

Did Dhoni play a big part in building his own team? No, primary credit goes to Ganguly.

Did Dhoni shift his team's cricket into a more aggressive brand? No, he was often accused of being defensive, lacking gusto and not going for the kill.

Did India under Dhoni become more competitive overseas? No, they regressed after making so many strides in the 2000s.

Did India under Dhoni becomes unbeatable at home? For the most part, except they were beaten by England in 2012.

So on what basis was he a superior test captain to Imran? Imran achieved all of the above, even if his record is not flawless (but if any captains have a flawless record).

Please read this article if you still think Dhoni was some legendary test captain:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/new-zealand-v-india-2014/content/story/719985.html

 

[Monsee]

"However, it is not like India haven't had opportunities to win over the last three years. They shut down a chase in Dominica when there was no way they could have lost the Test; they had an outside chance at Lord's; they were favourites to win Trent Bridge after two days; they had a good chance to put one past Australia at the MCG; and they had chances of their lifetimes at the Wanderers and Basin Reserve. Except for the Wanderers, there is a common thread running through these missed opportunities: a leadership group adamant that modern cricket is all about drying up runs, and a man signing autographs at the deep-point fence.

These turning points have been mentioned before, but they are worth repeating. At Lord's, England went into lunch on day four at 72 for 5, effectively 260 for 5. Ishant Sharma had just bowled a spell of 5-3-4-3, which included two great deliveries to get Kevin Pietersen and Ian Bell out. The ball was only 31 overs old. Forty minutes later, MS Dhoni began the middle session with Suresh Raina and Harbhajan Singh. Yes, India had lost Zaheer Khan, but what was the harm in going down slinging if you were going down anyway?"

Pretty damning words at the start of the 2nd para on (in the above link), shows you what he have been saying all along i.e. Dhoni does not belong in Imran's lague as a batsman (Tests only), bowling obviously, and more so as a skipper

 

[Stewie]

Pretty damning words at the start of the 2nd para on (in the above link), shows you what he have been saying all along i.e. Dhoni does not belong in Imran's lague as a batsman (Tests only), bowling obviously, and more so as a skipper

Wasn't there a test match where dhoni himself started bowling because he had such low confidence in his full time bowlers?

A test captain is one who gets the best out of what he has got. There is a term in Urdu for what he did in they game. It's called Bachna. If you are doing hatto/bacho in test cricket, you are doing something wrong as test captain.

 

[Tusker]

Regardless of it they were past their prime or not, you cannot just brush aside losing eight foreign tests matches in a row. Especially when you are so careful combing through Imran's record.

Yeah if losing a Test to a Minnow nation can be brushed aside as though it never happened then yeah we can certainly do the same for away tours to much superior Test Teams.

BTW let me know when you are ready to discuss Umpiring and ball tampering ...

Let's make this simple:

Did Dhoni play a big part in building his own team? No, primary credit goes to Ganguly.

Did Dhoni shift his team's cricket into a more aggressive brand? No, he was often accused of being defensive, lacking gusto and not going for the kill.

Did India under Dhoni become more competitive overseas? No, they regressed after making so many strides in the 2000s.

Did India under Dhoni becomes unbeatable at home? For the most part, except they were beaten by England in 2012.

So on what basis was he a superior test captain to Imran? Imran achieved all of the above, even if his record is not flawless (but if any captains have a flawless record).

Please read this article if you still think Dhoni was some legendary test captain:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/new-zealand-v-india-2014/content/story/719985.html

Ganguly did not "Build" any team ... all the big names that made Ganguly popular - Sehwag, Harbhajan, Dravid, VVS and ofcourse Tendulkar were all introduced under Tendulkar or Azhar.

If anything Ganguly was responsible for the Greg Chappell mess that set us back by few yrs. Guess who cleaned up that mess ?

Look at how many months MSD held the #1 Test status that too with many superior teams playing in his time than when Imran was.

It is pretty easy to turn this around and ask you what was Imran's achievement. Never won a Test series against the best team , couldn't win against Minnows and never tested under that right there disqualifies Imran .. whereas MSD never lost a single test at home to the best side of his time - Aussies.

And like I said ... let me know when you are ready to discuss umpiring , ball tampering and ODI's.

Imran was lucky to have played during a time period when there was no internet and social media and the amount of cricket played was half as much what MSD is reqd to play. Once we consider all of that it is hard not to admire MSD's achievements.

 

[Stewie]

Lol.. typical Indian propaganda about ball tampering and umpiring. It's not like Indian umpires are heaven sent angels. They were biggest cheats themselves. Kumble didn't take the tenwicjet wicket haul on his own. Watch the replays.


Oh and some of India's top players have been guilty of ball tampering, so keep that in mind before u cast stones at others while living in a glass house.

 

[Stewie]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india/content/story/137707.html

 

[thehub]

Lol.. typical Indian propaganda about ball tampering and umpiring. It's not like Indian umpires are heaven sent angels. They were biggest cheats themselves. Kumble didn't take the tenwicjet wicket haul on his own. Watch the replays.


Oh and some of India's top players have been guilty of ball tampering, so keep that in mind before u cast stones at others while living in a glass house.

Lol at indian top player being guilty of ball tampering. I think I should stop taking you seriously after this silly comment from you. Also LOL at Kumble's 10 wickets and cheating. You must be kidding.

 

[Stewie]

You should really visit the link I posted

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah if losing a Test to a Minnow nation can be brushed aside as though it never happened then yeah we can certainly do the same for away tours to much superior Test Teams.

Losing one test can be considered a blip. Losing eight straight away test matches is not.

Ganguly did not "Build" any team ... all the big names that made Ganguly popular - Sehwag, Harbhajan, Dravid, VVS and ofcourse Tendulkar were all introduced under Tendulkar or Azhar.

Wrong again. Sehwag, Yuvraj and Zaheer Khan emerged under Ganguly. Laxman was given his speciality no 6 slot, Dravid and Sehwag enjoyed their best form under Ganguly. What you are saying is directly contradicted by the big names themselves who give Ganguly credit. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxb-Hj8x6eU

And the point is, Dhoni didnt build any team, it was handed to him.

Look at how many months MSD held the #1 Test status that too with many superior teams playing in his time than when Imran was.

So what? That was only based on home matches and he promptly lost the #1 status as soon as he went to England.

It is pretty easy to turn this around and ask you what was Imran's achievement. Never won a Test series against the best team , couldn't win against Minnows and never tested under that right there disqualifies Imran .. whereas MSD never lost a single test at home to the best side of his time - Aussies.

I gave you Imran's achievements, built his own team, made the style of cricket more aggressive, made Pakistan more competitive abroad, AND was unbeaten at home. Sounds pretty good.

The Aussies that Dhoni faced in 2008 onwards were a second rate side and you know it. No Mcgrath, Warne, Gilchrist and others, a side on the decline.

You realize India didnt lose at home from 1987 to 2000? Only winning at home is no big achievement otherwise Azharuddin was unbeaten at home for longer and nobody gave him extra credit for that.

Imran was lucky to have played during a time period when there was no internet and social media and the amount of cricket played was half as much what MSD is reqd to play. Once we consider all of that it is hard not to admire MSD's achievements.

Dhoni has no real test achievement aside from a no.1 ranking based on home victories. He was known far and wide as a defensive captain who lost India many test matches abroad from winnable positions, or just watched by as his team was crushed.

 

[Tusker]

Losing one test can be considered a blip. Losing eight straight away test matches is not.

Not to minnows. Imagine if Dhoni had lost to a minnow nation .... we would never hear the end of it.

Wrong again. Sehwag, Yuvraj and Zaheer Khan emerged under Ganguly. Laxman was given his speciality no 6 slot, Dravid and Sehwag enjoyed their best form under Ganguly. What you are saying is directly contradicted by the big names themselves who give Ganguly credit. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxb-Hj8x6eU

And the point is, Dhoni didnt build any team, it was handed to him.

Thats not how you "Build" a team .... building involves identifying players from domestic sides and providing them opportunities ... all of these players barring Zack and Yuvi were given opportunities before Ganguly became captain. If anything the credit for building any team should go to Azhar or Tendulkar.

And don't forget the shambles by the time he invited Greg and by the time Dhoni took over between 2004-2007.

So what? That was only based on home matches and he promptly lost the #1 status as soon as he went to England.

Which is exactly the same rating system that was used to rank Pakistan #1 recently when delirium set in amongst fans here and infact all other teams retroactively. The simple fact is this: Had Imran been able to win more matches at home he too would have been ranked #1.

I gave you Imran's achievements, built his own team, made the style of cricket more aggressive, made Pakistan more competitive abroad, AND was unbeaten at home. Sounds pretty good.

The Aussies that Dhoni faced in 2008 onwards were a second rate side and you know it. No Mcgrath, Warne, Gilchrist and others, a side on the decline.

What aggressive style you are talking about ? He was the draw king and would make Misbah's tuk-tuk look exciting. And so were the WI after retirement of Lloyd, Roberts, Garner, Holding , Croft and Gomes with Viv and Marshall out injured and Greenidge playing as captain.

Even a weakened India was able to draw a home series against a full strength WI team in 1987 and indeed the supposedly greatest Pakistan side under Imran in 1989.

You realize India didnt lose at home from 1987 to 2000? Only winning at home is no big achievement otherwise Azharuddin was unbeaten at home for longer and nobody gave him extra credit for that.

What you don't realize is that MSD won as many Tests away as Azhar and Imran combined lol

Some Important ones:

Win at Durban against the No.1 SAF Test Side in 2010 and Drew a Series which is just as difficult (if not more) than the WI Draw in 1988

Win at Lords 2014
Win at Hamilton 2009 -- Won Series in NZ
Win at Kingston 2011 -- Won Series

Dhoni has no real test achievement aside from a no.1 ranking based on home victories. He was known far and wide as a defensive captain who lost India many test matches abroad from winnable positions, or just watched by as his team was crushed.

Imran was no different ... here is a test match AT HOME that Imran couldnt win despite having 450+ runs and 5 sessions to bowl out India that was without Gavaskar , Amarnath and Vengsarkar. Couldnt even get past Manjrekar and Shastri. MSD would win this match 9 out of 10 times.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63513.html

As for Dhoni's achievement In Test Cricket - let me know which captain has won 8 out 8 tests against any aussie side. And then there is the drawn series in SAF.


As I said Imrans biggest and popular achievement is that ODI Worldcup ... fans trying to sound elitist by pretending he did more in Tests is cute but nothing could be farther than the truth.


And I see you very nicely dodged the awkward topic of ball tampering and obviously you will pretend ODIs don't exist at all for obvious reasons

 

[Buffet]

IK captaincy is overrated in PP, but I will still take IK over Dhoni in the test format.

 

[Stewie]

Dhonis only trick was to use part time Bowlers, random changes and it worked for him fabulously at times in ODIs but very rarely in tests. I had seen him try this trick almost every time the game seemed to be slipping away from him. That and of course putting boundary riders to stop runs, he would employ weird placements inside the circle at times but I believe those were just to throw off the batsmen and hoping they will make a mistake.

 

[Monsee]

Talk about overrated on PP versus overrated in hearts and minds of over 1 billion followers...one can get elected to lead the All Time XI by several experts like Boycott, Dickie Bird etc. and the other, well maybe Modi awarded him some lame BCCI created award for not losing a test at home; what a champion!