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Why are Pakistan failing to produce aggressive batsmen?

Sher Khan

Sher Khan

Local Club Captain
Joined
Jan 17, 2018
Runs
2,407
When one looks at the Pakistan limited overs team of recent times, they realise that almost all the top and middle order batsmen are accumulators operating at around a strike rate of 70 and largely being unable to clear the ropes on a regular basis. We do have a t20 league operating and a population of 200 million, so why can't we find any big hitting batsmen? Even New Zealand which has a very small population and a very low key t20 league has several big hitting batsmen.

What are some of the reasons why we are failing to produce such batsmen, or is it a case of not giving such players enough chances?
 
What is aggression without requisite skills?

We have very aggressive batsmen who do well in domestic and UAE.
 
1 No quality pitches in Fc
2 no quality coaching
3 No emphasis in constructing long innings and batting habit,

4 Not taking horses for courses right from the tender age.
Thats it.
 
There are some batsmen (Talat, Mukhtar, Maqsood 2.0 etc.) but they're not getting a chance in the team.
 
The domestic pitches are the main issue. You have to play a survival game on them and don't get a chance to play strokes. Also you rarely bat for long periods in our first class cricket. So you don't get a chance to learn how to build an innings. Best way to improve your batting is actually batting and batting for long periods.
 
How can you find big hitters when the so called 'experience' is the most preferable matter for being selected in the national team?
 
Maybe because when it comes to aggression in batting, the bar is set by Afridi in Pakistan cricket.
 
MenInG said:
What is aggression without requisite skills?

We have very aggressive batsmen who do well in domestic and UAE.
Click to expand...

Good point. But then they will only develop those skills at the international level, much like Warner did. I think we atleast need to give those type of batsmen chances. The current odi side even struggles to score 250 in 50 overs.
 
BlueDoritos said:
There are some batsmen (Talat, Mukhtar, Maqsood 2.0 etc.) but they're not getting a chance in the team.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Atleast give these batsmen a chance. No one is talking them up to be Rohit Sharmas or Martin Guptills. But they are our best options to compete with modern day sides. The score won't look to dissimilar If Mukhtar fails as compared to how it looks when Azhar fails. But it definetly will look a lot better if Mukhtar gets set, as compared to if Azhar gets set.
 
Pitches in Pakistan don't help whatsoever. Batsman from Pakistan don't seem to have an understanding on how to construct an innings and rotating strike. Pakistan need to have much better pitches and must have modern coaching. One thing Azhar Mahmood has brought to the coaching as a bowler he played not to long ago and has understood how modern cricket is played and has taught bowlers like Hasan and Shadab how to bowl in ODI cricket today.
 
The young players we are introducing are aggressive? It's the oldies and Inzi's inept selections that keep holding us back.
 
Sher Khan said:
Exactly. Atleast give these batsmen a chance. No one is talking them up to be Rohit Sharmas or Martin Guptills. But they are our best options to compete with modern day sides. The score won't look to dissimilar If Mukhtar fails as compared to how it looks when Azhar fails. But it definetly will look a lot better if Mukhtar gets set, as compared to if Azhar gets set.
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Mukhtar can be similar to Sharjeel for us.
Maqsood have improved his aggressive game, can be a good number 5 for us.
Talat is one of the best young players in Pakistan, ideal player for lower order and he can bowl a bit as well.

Hopefully they'll get a chance in the next couple of series.

The next limited overs series is against WI, 3 T20s, then Scotland 2 T20 then Zimbabwe 3 ODIs and 2 T20s.

If some new guys get selected it will not be too hard for them to show their worth.

If the seniors stay in the team then it will be a nightmare later this year because we're gonna play Australia, New Zealand in UAE then tour South Africa. Hafeez, Malik and Azhar will fail big time just like this New Zealand series.
 
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There are quite few good points mentioned here, which all are valid. I think, one major issue was the leadership style. And, I have to blame Misbah era for that.

More or less, what I have seen, Misbah liked his batsmen to copy his batting style, and he wanted his team to play safety first game. May be because he experienced several collapse by PAK team, which made him insecure (his own SR came down to mid 60s from late 80s).

Umar & Maqdood were two natural stroke makers in that team - they were pushed to Lee order gradually, then out of team, while Jamshed got worse treatment and guy was a hitter at the top. Whereas Amin, Sharjeel, Fakhar, Haris sre almost 30 now, should have been playing for 6/7 years by now - any of them hardly got the chance and these are capable shot makers. On contrary, he backed Azhar, YK, Asad, MoHa too much - MoHa justified with his bowling, but still that unconditional permanent top 3 batting spot was undeserving.

Among the younger players, Ahmed started quite aggressive, but gradually he figured out what is valued most for a top order - he stayed the longest in the team.
 
Example of aggression. There are different levels of aggression

Jayasuriya, Gilchrist, Sehwag They go ballistic from ball one albeit with different degree of success.

Kohli, Ponting, Gayle - Takes time and explode in the end.

ABDV - Can do pretty much anything anytime except probably in a world cup pressure match.

Afridi - Wild slogs hoping he connects something

Symonds, Dhoni, Yuvraj, ROhit - Calculating beasts. They exploded at the right time

Then we have guys like Razzaq.


Whch kind we are talking about here.
 
The current team has Zaman, Babar, Shadab, Malik and Faheem, maybe even Imad and Sarfraz, who all score quickly and have very "modern" strikes and/or hit the ball hard. What is needed is consistency and fewer batting collapses against NZ.
 
No Pakistani player... past or present, international or domestic can play an innings like this.

 
I would say its due to lack of professionalism and not taking the game seriously enough. We are still in the delusion to see talent come from the streets and become world beaters. That is not going to happen anymore. Other countries are putting their players through olympic level training and diets while we are still allowing our players to eat nihari and paye so we can see the results of that.
 
Syed1 said:
No Pakistani player... past or present, international or domestic can play an innings like this.

Click to expand...

Any young and aggressive Pakistani opener will get dropped permanently after a few failures, while players like Azhar will enjoy several series even after failing several times.

Roy have failed plenty of times in the past, but it's England team's philosophy to play ultra aggressive opener, and Roy came back after performing in the domestic cricket.

If a player like Mukhtar is given a continuous run of games he can pull that off too. Even Fakhar is capable of scoring 150+ on his best day.

In Pakistan, defensive players are preferred over aggressive ones.

The big difference here is the philosophy and mindset of the teams.
 
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BlueDoritos said:
Any young and aggressive Pakistani opener will get dropped permanently after a few failures, while players like Azhar will enjoy several series even after failing several times.

Roy have failed plenty of times in the past, but it's England team's philosophy to play ultra aggressive opener, and Roy came back after performing in the domestic cricket.

If a player like Mukhtar is given a continuous run of games he can pull that off too. Even Fakhar is capable of scoring 150+ on his best day.

In Pakistan, defensive players are preferred over aggressive ones.

The big difference here is the philosophy and mindset of the teams.
Click to expand...

Pakistan in 2018 started an innings with Azhar and Imam, both players who would be considered too slow and one-dimensional in the 90s let alone in the 2010s.


Our thick tank has to be the worst in world cricket.
 
BlueDoritos said:
Did you forget Saeed Anwar and Ijaz Ahmed?! :))
Click to expand...

Don't let nostalgia cloud your judgement. They were destructive, but no where near as destructive as Roy.



Also case in point see how Roy continued to attack even when the required rate had come down to 4 odd, while the run rate was 6.5 - Pakistani mentality would have been to bring the run rate to run a ball and then do tuk tuk single double. There is a reason why we are so low in the rankings.
 
Syed1 said:
Don't let nostalgia cloud your judgement. They were destructive, but no where near as destructive as Roy.



Also case in point see how Roy continued to attack even when the required rate had come down to 4 odd, while the run rate was 6.5 - Pakistani mentality would have been to bring the run rate to run a ball and then do tuk tuk single double. There is a reason why we are so low in the rankings.
Click to expand...

These knocks of Ijaz Ahmed and Saeed Anwar are on par with Roy's knock:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...india-3rd-odi-india-tour-of-pakistan-1997-98/



http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...s-pakistan-6th-match-pepsi-independence-1997/

Keep in mind that these knocks were played in the pre t20 era.

Look at the highlights video of Ijaz' knock, he did what you said, kept attacking even when the required run rate was low, he even remained unbeaten. Completely destroyed the bowling attack almost single handedly.

And Saeed Anwar's knock doesn't need any explanation. It was an ATG innings.
 
Syed1 said:
Don't let nostalgia cloud your judgement. They were destructive, but no where near as destructive as Roy.



Also case in point see how Roy continued to attack even when the required rate had come down to 4 odd, while the run rate was 6.5 - Pakistani mentality would have been to bring the run rate to run a ball and then do tuk tuk single double. There is a reason why we are so low in the rankings.
Click to expand...

The ease with which these guys find the boundary in the powerplay overs is amazing.

Not much risk involved and no resorting to slogging. Just timing the ball into the gaps or lofting it over the infield.

Only Fakhar can somewhat do that for us
 
Syed1 said:
No Pakistani player... past or present, international or domestic can play an innings like this.

Click to expand...

What an ugly knock lol Most of the boundaries he didn't get the middle of the bat. No timing. One of those fluky knock i suppose.
 
Sher Khan said:
Exactly. Atleast give these batsmen a chance. No one is talking them up to be Rohit Sharmas or Martin Guptills. But they are our best options to compete with modern day sides. The score won't look to dissimilar If Mukhtar fails as compared to how it looks when Azhar fails. But it definetly will look a lot better if Mukhtar gets set, as compared to if Azhar gets set.
Click to expand...

Actually it will. Azhar failure is 10 (25). Mukhtar failure will be 10 (5). That's actually an enormous difference and the main reason Pakistan got owned this series. If top order batsmen didn't score runs that was still fine. They didn't leave enough balls for lower order to bail them out.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
What an ugly knock lol Most of the boundaries he didn't get the middle of the bat. No timing. One of those fluky knock i suppose.
Click to expand...

Would you rather win the way these guys play or lose with 'classy' batsmen? Until this lesson is learned England will keep hammering everyone who wants to play 'proper' cricket.
 
babajee said:
The ease with which these guys find the boundary in the powerplay overs is amazing.

Not much risk involved and no resorting to slogging. Just timing the ball into the gaps or lofting it over the infield.

Only Fakhar can somewhat do that for us
Click to expand...

They do actually resort to slogging. These aerial hits are called slogs when they miscue and get caught. Roy was quite chancy. But that's the thing they get these boundaries because they attack so many balls.
 
CricketAnalyst said:
Would you rather win the way these guys play or lose with 'classy' batsmen? Until this lesson is learned England will keep hammering everyone who wants to play 'proper' cricket.
Click to expand...

No . This guy with this kind of timing and hoicking like afridi won't play many innings like this. Adam Hales, Buttler are much more proper. This guy could have been out many times. He just got lucky.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
No . This guy with this kind of timing and hoicking like afridi won't play many innings like this. Adam Hales, Buttler are much more proper. This guy could have been out many times. He just got lucky.
Click to expand...

They all bat in very similar fashion. And it doesn't matter if it's 'lucky' or not. There are 10 of them and someone or the other is going to get lucky every time.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
No . This guy with this kind of timing and hoicking like afridi won't play many innings like this. Adam Hales, Buttler are much more proper. This guy could have been out many times. He just got lucky.
Click to expand...

Roy is given licence to attack and go hell to leather. If he comes off England win without breaking a sweat. Its a roll of the dice.

Roy make come off once in ten games but Azhar Ali will never come off and his 10(20) will lose Pakistan matches ten times out of ten.
 
Syed1 said:
Roy is given licence to attack and go hell to leather. If he comes off England win without breaking a sweat. Its a roll of the dice.

Roy make come off once in ten games but Azhar Ali will never come off and his 10(20) will lose Pakistan matches ten times out of ten.
Click to expand...

This is why a 'Mukhtar' is better than an 'Azhar' in ODIs.
 
We're not million miles away from a side that should be able to compete...

Sarf
Fakhar
Babar
Haris
???
???
Shadab, faheem and the rest.
 
Majority of the batsmen from Punjab and KPK have natural tendencies to beat the life out of the ball but they don't have the attention span nor the right technique to last long.
 
Sher Khan said:
When one looks at the Pakistan limited overs team of recent times, they realise that almost all the top and middle order batsmen are accumulators operating at around a strike rate of 70 and largely being unable to clear the ropes on a regular basis. We do have a t20 league operating and a population of 200 million, so why can't we find any big hitting batsmen? Even New Zealand which has a very small population and a very low key t20 league has several big hitting batsmen.

What are some of the reasons why we are failing to produce such batsmen, or is it a case of not giving such players enough chances?
Click to expand...

How on earth can we produce batsman for ODI cricket when we only play at best 10 List A matches a year. Almost all of the development for LOI cricket is done either in T20s and ODI's.
You look at the no of matches played by domestic veterans, they play a lot more First Class matches than List A matches. Ideally it should be 2.1:1 for List A and First Class with atleast 12 FC games a year with 25 List A games.
 
indipper said:
They are being defending themselves in "fixing cases".
Click to expand...

:)))

On a serious note, the instincts of Pakistani batsmen are either to defend or to slog but hardly ever to time the ball in the gap.

If you look at batsmen from other countries, they try to hit the gaps even when they go over the top. Any miss hits would fall in no man's land. Even Munro did it today.

Another important point is that the natural flair of Pakistani batsmen is taken away by coaches in domestic. The fact that every Pakistani batsman starts to CROUCH after playing domestic cricket should tell you something. It also has to do with surviving on those pitches. It hampers the hitting ability.
 
Syed1 said:
Don't let nostalgia cloud your judgement. They were destructive, but no where near as destructive as Roy.



Also case in point see how Roy continued to attack even when the required rate had come down to 4 odd, while the run rate was 6.5 - Pakistani mentality would have been to bring the run rate to run a ball and then do tuk tuk single double. There is a reason why we are so low in the rankings.
Click to expand...

I reckon Saeed Anwar playing on modern pitches, with modern bats would have been pretty destructive. Watched him through the nineties. Different from Roy, but as destructive in his own classy way.

But discussion is about the modern crop. Interesting one. Not sure yet myself. Puzzling selection problems for Pak at the moment. I think there are some talented players there. Azam's failure in NZ and ENG (apart from champs trophy mini innings) was a big blow. Hopefully he can find a way. Zaman, Haris look good, showed promise... though must admit I didn't watch every innings and Malik deserves to be persisted with for now... Hafeez struggles to rotate and Azhar had a tough series. Has to work again on his recently adapted ODI technique because he was getting out the same way (LBW stepping across his stumps). Hope he can adapt.

IF there are better players around, Hafeez's spot should be up for grabs if he ain't bowling.
 
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FreePalestine said:
I reckon Saeed Anwar playing on modern pitches, with modern bats would have been pretty destructive. Watched him through the nineties. Different from Roy, but as destructive in his own classy way.

But discussion is about the modern crop. Interesting one. Not sure yet myself. Puzzling selection problems for Pak at the moment. I think there are some talented players there. Azam's failure in NZ and ENG (apart from champs trophy mini innings) was a big blow. Hopefully he can find a way. Zaman, Haris look good, showed promise... though must admit I didn't watch every innings and Malik deserves to be persisted with for now... Hafeez struggles to rotate and Azhar had a tough series. Has to work again on his recently adapted ODI technique because he was getting out the same way (LBW stepping across his stumps). Hope he can adapt.

IF there are better players around, Hafeez's spot should be up for grabs if he ain't bowling.
Click to expand...

Hafeez is going nowhere after scoring those 2 fifties.
 
stand still and hit big, no one in pakistani batting line up is able to do that.

Poor pitches
Poor selection
Poor ball used
Poor coaching
poor talent spotter
poor academy facilities and their utilization
poor physical work
poor diet plans & its implementation

too many causes just too many. & no one is looking to address them
 
I have read views of many pak posters here and their obsession with technique is too much.
They consider a technical player as far better than a aggressive player with lesser technique.
Technique is not going to win u matches runs will.
An ftb scoring runs at a good str rate is better than a technically flawless player(in lois) who plays too many dot balls.
Every other good loi batsman (who is not good in tests) is termed as a hack on pp.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
I have read views of many pak posters here and their obsession with technique is too much.
They consider a technical player as far better than a aggressive player with lesser technique.
Technique is not going to win u matches runs will.
An ftb scoring runs at a good str rate is better than a technically flawless player(in lois) who plays too many dot balls.
Every other good loi batsman (who is not good in tests) is termed as a hack on pp.
Click to expand...

Technique required to hit big shots too. You can't hit shots turning your head up, looking to square and hitting in leg side.
 
We have aggressive batsmen in domestic circuit which include Mukhtar Ahmed, Sahibzada Farhan and Shahzaib Hasan. Moreover all these are openers, so no harm in giving them atleast 10 ODI matches, since we urgently need a partner for Fakhar Zaman who can play aggressively.
 
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Talat, if not stereotyped into a no. 7 allrounder, can become our first modern middle over batter.
Looks to rotate the strike with odd boundaries and plays at a very good strike rate. Sadly, ever since people found out he could bowl some seam up overs, he has been pushed down the order at no.6 and no.7 which may halt his progress and development as an LOI batter. He is clearly a guy with a penchant of playing long innings rather than someone needed for a quick 30 or 40.
 
Who are the aggressive openers in Pakistan?

One major flaw in the Pakistan LOI teams is the lack of an aggressive opener to partner Fakhar Zaman.

Who are the aggressive openers in Pakistan?
 
This time last year we had Shehzad and Azhar opening for us. Let's just count our blessings.
 
The closest thing we have at the moment is Kamran "3 chances" Akmal. Sad state of affairs.
 
Syed1 said:
Not any more.. He was opener for first three ODIs in NZ and failed as expected and then was dumped.
Click to expand...

But who is the opener though? Shehzad? Both the Fahim and Amin experiment did not work. So Azhar probably is gone and is going to be replaced by Shehzad as he had a decent T20 series.
 
giri26 said:
But who is the opener though? Shehzad? Both the Fahim and Amin experiment did not work. So Azhar probably is gone and is going to be replaced by Shehzad as he had a decent T20 series.
Click to expand...

Amin only opened once... I'm sure they will give him another series before deciding.
 
In my opinion they should give a chance to khurrum Manzoor a in ODI (not in t20). He seems like a batsman who can play long innings and take some time to start. He is a guy who can score a century but he is not for t20. Fakhar Zaman can be the aggressive partner with him. For t20 I hate to say but I don't see anyone better than Kamran to start innings with Fakhar.
 
TeymurBlake said:
Mukhtar Ahmed. He had a good domestic season and deserves another chance.
Click to expand...

This man has an average of 32 at a SR of over 150 in domestic. And an average of 32 in international T20s. And yet somehow can't even find a place in PSL. That seems pretty unfair IMO.
 
The solution to me is Sarfraz Ahmed

He has opened before and was successful .... busy player who doesn't waste balls , will rotate strike and get boundaries, I believe he will be good combination with fakhar , he is wasted in lower order .

I believe they will go back to shezad will be big mistake , selfish player who will waste balls and put pressure on line up

Azhar Ali played out of his skin amazing in champions trophy so maybe he should be persisted with but personally don't think he is attacking enough of a player
 
Babaar and Fakhar can be tried for a few games.

babar
Fakhar
harris
Sarfaraz
Umar Amin
 
Rayyman said:
Fakhar
Babar
Haris
Maqsood
Sarfraz*+
Shadab
Nawaz
Faheem
Hasan
Amir
Junaid
Click to expand...

Not in T20. Slot Talat at 5 and one of Nawaz/Fahim/Imad - 6 bowlers is too many. Ideally T20 teams should be 5 specialist bowler for solid 20 overs and 6 batsmen. If 2/3 of the bowlers can hit out, that's bonus; similarly couple of batsmen should be able to roll arm, just in case and all 11 should field well (at least no baggage)
 
babajee said:
No.

Fakhar
Haris
Babar
Maqsood
Sarfraz
Talat
Faheem/Shadab
Shadab/Faheem
Hasan
Amir
Usman/Junaid
Click to expand...

Lol no spin? Fakhar and Shadab will get spanked a lot just like they did against Pandya. You need someone economical like Imad or Nawaz, but I prefer the latter for fielding and age.

I like Talat and he gets into my squad, but atm Faheem gets over him as pace allrounder
 
Rayyman said:
Lol no spin? Fakhar and Shadab will get spanked a lot just like they did against Pandya. You need someone economical like Imad or Nawaz, but I prefer the latter for fielding and age.

I like Talat and he gets into my squad, but atm Faheem gets over him as pace allrounder
Click to expand...

Imad and Nawaz will just get milked against the top teams for 60+ runs.

Unless we can find another wicket taking spinner like Shadab then there’s no need for a second spinner.
 
babajee said:
Imad and Nawaz will just get milked against the top teams for 60+ runs.

Unless we can find another wicket taking spinner like Shadab then there’s no need for a second spinner.
Click to expand...
You need a second spinner. This is a fact. Every country besides maybe Australia has slow pitches these days. Just look what the likes of Santner, Moeen Ali, etc. are doing these days. And five pacers is redundant.
 
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Rayyman said:
You need a second spinner. This is a fact. Every country besides maybe Australia has slow pitches these days. Just look what the likes of Santner, Moeen Ali, etc. are doing these days. And five pacers is redundant.
Click to expand...

Imad and Nawaz are not the solution to the “second spinner” problem. They are glorified medium pacers.
 
babajee said:
Imad and Nawaz are not the solution to the “second spinner” problem. They are glorified medium pacers.
Click to expand...

I know people will mock me for this but I think till someone better comes along we can use Bilal asif as the second spinner in ODIs.

His recent domestic form with the ball has been good, and the fact he is tall and offspinner, gives us an option we dont already have. At the very least I dont think he will do an worse than Imad, and he is a better slogger as well.
 
Syed1 said:
Thanks for tuning into PSL.... Despite all of you bad-mouthing it you lot are watching it chup chup ke.
Click to expand...

Bad mouthing? When did I "bad mouth"?

I'm a cricket fan, I'll check out bits of games here and there. But to be honest, PSL isn't really that interesting. Now if they had this guy playing along with Rakheem Cornwall, I'd consider tuning in for more than a few seconds at a time...
 
there is a shortage of talent. that much is well known.
but consider also the approach of our so called successful senior cricketers.
Mohammad Hafeez's team, PZ, were chasing 180 odd against Multan. Hafeez say in post match comments that their approach was to take the game deep and hit out at the end. Hafeez scored a safe 50 at an SR of 130 odd.
If your thinking is so backward, no amount of talent will help.
Remember, these are the mediocre cricketers that new players to the team, see when they come in to the dressing room.
 
Because we spent the last decade emphasizing the importance of "building an innings", "taking th game to the end" and what not
 
Which modern day suitable batsman have we had that worked on a template to aspire towards in LOI cricket compared to other teams? we have had none.
 
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