Why can’t a non-Muslim dream of becoming the prime minister or president of Pakistan?

Hornbill

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When Sajid Javid announced that he would join the race for 10 Downing Street earlier this year, the news was met with a joyous reception in Pakistan. Just the thought that a man who was raised in a Muslim household was even in contention to become the next prime minister of Britain was seen as a matter of great pride; after all, we feel it is imperative that all other nations ensure an equal access to opportunities for all religious minorities and do not discriminate on the basis of religion.

However, how many in Pakistan would be celebrating if an individual from a religious minority was in the running to become the prime minister or president of Pakistan? In truth, we may never know the answer to that question since the Constitution of Pakistan does not allow a non-Muslim to occupy either of these offices. According to Article 41 (2) of the Constitution,

“A person shall not be qualified for election as president unless he is a Muslim of not less than 45 years of age and is qualified to be elected as a member of the National Assembly.”

Similarly, Article 91 (3) stipulates,

“After the election of the speaker and the deputy speaker, the National Assembly shall, to the exclusion of any other business, proceed to elect without debate one of its Muslim members to be the prime minister.”

Now, as a Hindu who was born and raised in Pakistan, I never felt the need to question the heights to which I could rise. I had been weaned on the belief that all citizens in Pakistan are equal, and that the state will never endorse discrimination along religious lines. Whenever there are incidents of religious prejudice in Pakistan, of which there are many, I reassure myself with the belief that these instances in no shape or form reflect the thinking which underpins our sate machinery. But this approach now seems increasingly paradoxical to me.

On the one hand we say individuals belonging to religious minorities are equal, yet on the other hand we do not want any of them to ever become the premier of our country. Telling religious minorities that they are equal citizens holds little value if they are simultaneously told that they are not allowed to occupy the office of the prime minister or president. It only reinforces the notion that no matter how accomplished and capable an individual may be, their religious beliefs will always dictate how far they are permitted to climb on the ladder. As a result, it isn’t hard to see why such promises of equality came off as mere lip service. If religious discrimination is enshrined in our Constitution, claims of religious equality will naturally fall on deaf ears.

But surely times have changed, right? A modern, more socially and politically aware Parliament would not endorse such a clause, right? Wrong.

Last week, Naveed Aamir Jeeva, put forth a bill which proposed that Article 41 (2) and Article 91 (3) should be amended in order to ensure that non-Muslims are given the right to become the prime minister and president of the country. This proposed legislation was rejected, and the Minister of State for Parliamentary Affairs Ali Muhammad stated that while Pakistan continues to protect the rights of religious minorities, the nation is an Islamic republic and therefore can not have a non-Muslim prime minister or president.

Firstly, it is unsurprising that this bill was put forth by a member of parliament who is not a Muslim since it seems rather unlikely that such an amendment would be championed by anyone else. Secondly, Muhammad’s statement is concerning since he is a member of Pakistan’s ruling party. If Imran Khan and Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) are truly committed towards ensuring equality for all, why then is Muhammad so opposed to the concept of a non-Muslim president or prime minister? Thirdly, Muhammad’s line of argumentation relies on an oft repeated notion that since Pakistan is an Islamic republic, certain things are off limits for non-Muslims. This way of thinking is echoed by many in the country, and Muhammad’s statement only lends credence to that. But how much prejudice will we continue to endorse by hiding behind the fact that Pakistan is an Islamic republic?

However, ultimately, this is about more than that which is enshrined in the Constitution. It is a matter of public acceptance and institutionalised religious discrimination. For instance, ask yourself, does it seem likely that Pakistan will appoint a non-Muslim as the Chief of Army Staff (COAS) anytime soon? Even though, in theory, there is no stipulation that should prevent this from happening. Therefore, even in arenas where there are no visibly erected roadblocks, there is an underlying religious prejudice which has been normalised.

I have always felt proud to call Pakistan my homeland, but constitutional limitations such as this one always make me wonder whether the state is proud to call me, and other non-Muslims like me, its own. While we readily call for religious plurality in other parts of the world, why are we so reticent to abide by those same principles in our country? We cannot berate other nations for discriminating against Muslims along religious lines if we ourselves fail to ensure that any Pakistani can rise to the highest office in the country.

Perhaps what is more concerning is that the news about the rejection of the bill tabled by Jeeva came and went with little debate or discussion in the country. This needs to change. We cannot better ourselves as a nation if we do not openly talk about both the good and the bad in Pakistan.

https://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/...-the-prime-minister-or-president-of-pakistan/

Author of this article is a Pakistani hindu.Indian posters please don't make this another ind vs pak thread.I hope mods keep this as a separate thread.
 
Pakistan was created due to Islamic reason. Otherwise, there was no point of partition.

So, having a Muslim leader makes sense. I don't see anything wrong with it.
 
Non-Muslims Pakistani are Pakistani and should have every right to become PM of Pakistan.
 
yes, because having a co-religionist at the top post empowers rest of the community. ask indian muslims or dalits.
 
Even if it’s allowed it would be just cosmetic because it would never happen really.

So I guess for the heck of it they should’ve just allowed it anyway
 
Pakistan was created due to Islamic reason. Otherwise, there was no point of partition.

So, having a Muslim leader makes sense. I don't see anything wrong with it.

The US was also built on slavery yet isn't anymore.

Historical attitudes don't need to continue just because it is historical.
 
Why can't the leader of ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of Pakistan be a Non-Muslim?

What a stupid question.

Its like asking
Why can't Saudi King be Christian?
Why can't Iranian Supreme Leader be Atheist?
You get the idea.

What do the people asking this smoke nowadays?
 
I hope one day they allow it. Non-Muslim Pakistanis are as much as Pakistanis as Muslim Pakistanis. Imagine being in a country where you're not allowed to become a leader because of your religion or the skin of your color. It'd never be nice.
 
Why can't the leader of ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of Pakistan be a Non-Muslim?

What a stupid question.

Its like asking
Why can't Saudi King be Christian?
Why can't Iranian Supreme Leader be Atheist?
You get the idea.

What do the people asking this smoke nowadays?

I don't know about people, but I want to know what you're smoking. We are Islamic only in name. Most of our laws are common law, we are also a democratic country. We are not run on Sharia Law or Islamic theocracy like Saudi Arabia or Iran nor do we have kings or Supreme leaders. Telling a non-Muslim Pakistani kid that he can never dream of becoming a leader of the nation he was born in and loves is beyond idiotic.
 
Even if it’s allowed it would be just cosmetic because it would never happen really.

So I guess for the heck of it they should’ve just allowed it anyway

Not even President? Isn't the Presidential post in Pakistan just a nominal head, like in India? Real powers are with the PM in India, that is why we have had 3 Muslim and 2 Dalit Presidents, but them getting PM post will be a lot tougher.
 
Non-Muslims Pakistani are Pakistani and should have every right to become PM of Pakistan.

I hope one day they allow it. Non-Muslim Pakistanis are as much as Pakistanis as Muslim Pakistanis. Imagine being in a country where you're not allowed to become a leader because of your religion or the skin of your color. It'd never be nice.

Great attitude to have. May your tribe increase.
 
Great attitude to have. May your tribe increase.

It’s all for show. Their cult leader didn’t even let an Ahmadi sit on his economic council and his provincial government are forcing women wear burqas.
 
It's a legitimate criticism.

You systematically suppress minorities by taking away their right to the top political position. Whether they win or not should be left to the voting public.
 
It’s all for show. Their cult leader didn’t even let an Ahmadi sit on his economic council and his provincial government are forcing women wear burqas.

I had to reply to this. We, atleast me, criticised PTI for this.

We are not bootlickers like you are to support in racist and sexist parties.
 
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Great attitude to have. May your tribe increase.

One day this law will go too, I hope. Suppressing minorities is never good. What message are you sending to them by telling them they can never hope to lead a nation they were born in, love, grew up in and would die in?
 
I don't know about people, but I want to know what you're smoking. We are Islamic only in name. Most of our laws are common law, we are also a democratic country. We are not run on Sharia Law or Islamic theocracy like Saudi Arabia or Iran nor do we have kings or Supreme leaders. Telling a non-Muslim Pakistani kid that he can never dream of becoming a leader of the nation he was born in and loves is beyond idiotic.

We are Islamic in name only because you said so? Its not a subjective topic.

Pakistan will always be an Islamic Republic. No one can change that.

And I don't know what you're smoking because you seem to have an idea that the leader of a Muslim nation can be a Non-Muslim. I don't know if religion matters to you or not but it certainly does to a lot of Pakistanis like me. The world can think of religion as something medieval and do whatever the hell it wants to but we as Pakistanis can't compromise on it. Pakistan was made in the name of La Ilaha Ilallah. How can its leaders by Non-Muslim? It defies logic and reasoning.

Its literally like asking why can't Israel's PM be a Muslim?

It's utter bull crap.

We have wayyy more important issues in this country but people wanna debate who can be PM and who can't while rural people cry for basic necessities and corruption runs riot.
 
We are Islamic in name only because you said so? Its not a subjective topic.

Pakistan will always be an Islamic Republic. No one can change that.

And I don't know what you're smoking because you seem to have an idea that the leader of a Muslim nation can be a Non-Muslim. I don't know if religion matters to you or not but it certainly does to a lot of Pakistanis like me. The world can think of religion as something medieval and do whatever the hell it wants to but we as Pakistanis can't compromise on it. Pakistan was made in the name of La Ilaha Ilallah. How can its leaders by Non-Muslim? It defies logic and reasoning.

Its literally like asking why can't Israel's PM be a Muslim?

It's utter bull crap.

We have wayyy more important issues in this country but people wanna debate who can be PM and who can't while rural people cry for basic necessities and corruption runs riot.

Oh what a great comparison. First you justify your bigotry by comparing us to idiotic and racist states such as Saudis and Iran, where even a protest can land you on the executioner's table. Next you compare us to an apartheid state which humiliates and kills people everyday such as Israel.

Is that your model to follow? Our laws, for the most part, are common law. We are not sharia run, for the most part. Our civil laws are common laws. We don't have kings or supreme leaders nor are we occupying illegal land and killing innocents like Israel.

Every single Pakistani has the right to dream of leading our nation especially if they can help the poor and make our nation a better place. You can dress it up as however you like. The law should not exist, the people should decide. That's why we have elections.
 
I had to reply to this. We, atleast me, criticised PTI for this.

We are not bootlickers like you are to support in racist and sexist parties.

PTI supporters are the biggest bootlickers because they blindly lap up whatever comes out of their cult-leader’s mouth. Don’t talk about sexism and racism. PTI is the biggest sexist party for imposing burqas on girls in KP, and Imran Khan himself is racist. He told Babar Ghauri that Africa is full of people that look like him.

Yes Babar Ghauri had some choice words for him too, but only a racist person will attack another person’s skin color in a fight. A non-racist person will never stoop to that level no matter what. So please look in the mirror and hang your head in shame for supporting a sexist and racist party.
 
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PTI supporters are the biggest bootlickers because they blindly lap up whatever comes out of their cult-leader’s mouth. Don’t talk about sexism and racism. PTI is the biggest sexist party for imposing burqas on girls in KP, and Imran Khan himself is racist. He told Babar Ghauri that Africa is full of people that look like him.

Yes Babar Ghauri had some choice words for him too, but only a racist person will attack another person’s skin color in a fight. A non-racist person will never stoop to that level no matter what. So please look in the mirror and hang your head in shame for supporting a sexist and racist party.

A high class m0ron like you who supports dynasties and was raised on the back of corruption calling us bootlickers.

I am afraid I don't have the patience of others who have to keep replying to filth like you, otherwise I'd risk of running into trouble. Which I prefer not to.
 
A high class m0ron like you who supports dynasties and was raised on the back of corruption calling us bootlickers.

I am afraid I don't have the patience of others who have to keep replying to filth like you, otherwise I'd risk of running into trouble. Which I prefer not to.

Yes as usual you can run away and put me on ignore list after your “you support racist and sexist party” jab backfired big time. See you around.
 
Oh what a great comparison. First you justify your bigotry by comparing us to idiotic and racist states such as Saudis and Iran, where even a protest can land you on the executioner's table. Next you compare us to an apartheid state which humiliates and kills people everyday such as Israel.

Is that your model to follow? Our laws, for the most part, are common law. We are not sharia run, for the most part. Our civil laws are common laws. We don't have kings or supreme leaders nor are we occupying illegal land and killing innocents like Israel.

Every single Pakistani has the right to dream of leading our nation especially if they can help the poor and make our nation a better place. You can dress it up as however you like. The law should not exist, the people should decide. That's why we have elections.

I gave Israel's example because they are a nation for Jews hence it's ridiculous to assume that their leader would be a non-Jew.

Similarly, Pakistan is an Islamic Republic, how is it plausible and reasonable for the leader to be Non-Muslim? Let me clarify that I'm not against Non-Muslims holding government positions/ministries; I'm only against them being PM/President as they are leaders of the nation.

How many caliphs of Muslims nations have been Non-Muslim?
Did those caliphates not have minorities?

Whether we have common laws or not, it doesn't matter.
Democracy isn't an Islamic model and neither is democracy the perfect model. In fact, if people are gullible enough then democracy is indeed the best revenge.

Pakistan was made as a nation of the Muslims of Indian sub-continent hence it makes perfect sense to have a Muslim PM by law.
 
I gave Israel's example because they are a nation for Jews hence it's ridiculous to assume that their leader would be a non-Jew.

Similarly, Pakistan is an Islamic Republic, how is it plausible and reasonable for the leader to be Non-Muslim? Let me clarify that I'm not against Non-Muslims holding government positions/ministries; I'm only against them being PM/President as they are leaders of the nation.

How many caliphs of Muslims nations have been Non-Muslim?
Did those caliphates not have minorities?

Whether we have common laws or not, it doesn't matter.
Democracy isn't an Islamic model and neither is democracy the perfect model. In fact, if people are gullible enough then democracy is indeed the best revenge.

Pakistan was made as a nation of the Muslims of Indian sub-continent hence it makes perfect sense to have a Muslim PM by law.

Wait....common laws do matter. Democracy does matter. It only proves we are Islamic in name, when it comes application of laws, for the most part.

Why are you comparing us to Caliphates when we are not even 1% of that.

Pakistan was made for Muslims to secure our rights but that doesn't mean we were made to exclude our minorities, hence the large white color of our flag. I am surprised we don't have people trying to take the white part out of the flag too. The fact millions of those PAKISTANIS can never become a PM is a farce.

You seem a clever guy, don't post like the idiotic bootlicker like Mamoon above us.
 
I gave Israel's example because they are a nation for Jews hence it's ridiculous to assume that their leader would be a non-Jew.

Similarly, Pakistan is an Islamic Republic, how is it plausible and reasonable for the leader to be Non-Muslim? Let me clarify that I'm not against Non-Muslims holding government positions/ministries; I'm only against them being PM/President as they are leaders of the nation.

How many caliphs of Muslims nations have been Non-Muslim?
Did those caliphates not have minorities?

Whether we have common laws or not, it doesn't matter.
Democracy isn't an Islamic model and neither is democracy the perfect model. In fact, if people are gullible enough then democracy is indeed the best revenge.

Pakistan was made as a nation of the Muslims of Indian sub-continent hence it makes perfect sense to have a Muslim PM by law.

In that case Pakistan should explicitly tell its minority citizens that they are clearly second class and it would be advisable for them to go and live in another country. There is no point in then pretending to care for them and Imran making statements like “we will show Modi how to treat minorities” etc. If we really care and consider them as citizens of Pakistan, then we must amend the constitution and allow them to lead the country. Yes practically it will never happen, but it will be a symbolic gesture to show that Pakistan is not just for Muslims only.

Pretending to care for minorities and then not giving them equal rights is no life, and that is no matter how bad things are in India at the moment, Pakistan is by far a worse country for minorities including Shia Muslims who are massacred regularly but the state does little to protect them.
 
In that case Pakistan should explicitly tell its minority citizens that they are clearly second class and it would be advisable for them to go and live in another country. There is no point in then pretending to care for them and Imran making statements like “we will show Modi how to treat minorities” etc. If we really care and consider them as citizens of Pakistan, then we must amend the constitution and allow them to lead the country. Yes practically it will never happen, but it will be a symbolic gesture to show that Pakistan is not just for Muslims only.

Pretending to care for minorities and then not giving them equal rights is no life, and that is no matter how bad things are in India at the moment, Pakistan is by far a worse country for minorities including Shia Muslims who are massacred regularly but the state does little to protect them.

Oh Bhai I'm a part of minority, don't tell me how my people are treated.

If we get into the "why Shias get massacred" then that is a whole other Islamic ideological debate far beyond Imran's/Pakistan's policies. I don't want to get into that and derail this thread.
 
Oh Bhai I'm a part of minority, don't tell me how my people are treated.

If we get into the "why Shias get massacred" then that is a whole other Islamic ideological debate far beyond Imran's/Pakistan's policies. I don't want to get into that and derail this thread.

It doesn't matter to him if you're Shia or not. He will use your sect to post more garbage, like he does in every thread.
 
Wait....common laws do matter. Democracy does matter. It only proves we are Islamic in name, when it comes application of laws, for the most part.

Why are you comparing us to Caliphates when we are not even 1% of that.

Pakistan was made for Muslims to secure our rights but that doesn't mean we were made to exclude our minorities, hence the large white color of our flag. I am surprised we don't have people trying to take the white part out of the flag too. The fact millions of those PAKISTANIS can never become a PM is a farce.

You seem a clever guy, don't post like the idiotic bootlicker like Mamoon above us.

Forget Mamoon.

Ok let's take your ideal scenario.

Suppose a Christian was Pakistan's PM. Would his speech at UNGA have the same agenda, fervour and impact as Imran's at UNGA? Would it be genuine?

The whole world would feel that he is forced to do this as he has to prove loyalty to Pakistan which is the same thing we (correctly/incorrectly) assume about Indian Muslims when they speak against Pakistan.
 
Oh Bhai I'm a part of minority, don't tell me how my people are treated.

If we get into the "why Shias get massacred" then that is a whole other Islamic ideological debate far beyond Imran's/Pakistan's policies. I don't want to get into that and derail this thread.

I know you are shia and why they are persecuted is not the point. The point is that our state (Imran and everyone else) does very little to protect them. Our stance over minorities is hypocritical - we pretend that we care but we don’t. It must be a terrible feeling to be a Hindu, Christian, Sikh etc. in Pakistan.

Being Pakistani is already very unfortunate, but to a be a minority in Pakistan is like living in hell.
 
What I can't wrap my head around is that how can you present a Non-Muslim PM as ambassador of ISLAMIC nation of Pakistan? Again this does not imply that we're excluding minorities but there is not even historical precedent for it and rightfully so. You can't present an ambassador who has difference of ideology with 90% of his own people. It'd be a laughing stock.
 
Forget Mamoon.

Ok let's take your ideal scenario.

Suppose a Christian was Pakistan's PM. Would his speech at UNGA have the same agenda, fervour and impact as Imran's at UNGA? Would it be genuine?

The whole world would feel that he is forced to do this as he has to prove loyalty to Pakistan which is the same thing we (correctly/incorrectly) assume about Indian Muslims when they speak against Pakistan.

Yes. As India is our main rival, our main issue with India is about Kashmir. So ofcourse he would. Just like we have Sikhs fighting in our army against Indians, if we don't doubt their loyalty when fighting and putting their lives on the line for us against India why on earth would we doubt them if they led us.

You do realise there are tons of bigots in Pakistan who also hate Shias too right? How would you feel if tomorrow they extended the definition of Muslim in Pakistan to exclude Shias? And barred Shias from becoming a leader? An example is Saudi Arabia, since you quoted them twice. A Muslim state but one who'd up in flames if a Shia led it.

I'd still be making the same point if Pakistan made an absurd law against your sect.
 
What I can't wrap my head around is that how can you present a Non-Muslim PM as ambassador of ISLAMIC nation of Pakistan? Again this does not imply that we're excluding minorities but there is not even historical precedent for it and rightfully so. You can't present an ambassador who has difference of ideology with 90% of his own people. It'd be a laughing stock.

I am sure brave non-Muslims fighting in our army would rejoice at your post. A lot of Wahabbis in Pakistan don't like Shias as well. For your sake I hope they never include Shias as non-Muslims.
 
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I know you are shia and why they are persecuted is not the point. The point is that our state (Imran and everyone else) does very little to protect them. Our stance over minorities is hypocritical - we pretend that we care but we don’t. It must be a terrible feeling to be a Hindu, Christian, Sikh etc. in Pakistan.

Being Pakistani is already very unfortunate, but to a be a minority in Pakistan is like living in hell.

Once again the topic you're pointing towards has nothing to do with this thread.

I can show you hundreds of books from hardline ulema of a specific famous sect of Islam which considers our massacre as Jihad. What can any nation/leader do about it if their teachings are widely regarded as significant in the country?

I will not post further on this as I don't want to risk an ideological war on this forum.
 
What I can't wrap my head around is that how can you present a Non-Muslim PM as ambassador of ISLAMIC nation of Pakistan? Again this does not imply that we're excluding minorities but there is not even historical precedent for it and rightfully so. You can't present an ambassador who has difference of ideology with 90% of his own people. It'd be a laughing stock.

The only ideological stand based on religion we take is on Kashmir. That's it. Every other stand we take on is either based on geo-politik or based on our national interest which has nothing to do with idelogy. The stand we also take on Israel is one taken by many non-Muslims nations which proves being a Muslim doesnt have anything to do with taking a stand on anything Muslim related.
 
It's a legitimate criticism.

You systematically suppress minorities by taking away their right to the top political position. Whether they win or not should be left to the voting public.

It is a legitimate criticism only for 5 star liberals. During our childhood, we had a concept of doodh bhaat (milk and rice). When a kid who was too small to play with us and still wanted to be a part of our team, we let the kid play but didn't apply the rules. The kid thought he was playing but he was always out of the game. So make the change in your aain and let the minorities have their doodh bhaat.
 
Yes. As India is our main rival, our main issue with India is about Kashmir. So ofcourse he would. Just like we have Sikhs fighting in our army against Indians, if we don't doubt their loyalty when fighting and putting their lives on the line for us against India why on earth would we doubt them if they led us.

You do realise there are tons of bigots in Pakistan who also hate Shias too right? How would you feel if tomorrow they extended the definition of Muslim in Pakistan to exclude Shias? And barred Shias from becoming a leader? An example is Saudi Arabia, since you quoted them twice. A Muslim state but one who'd up in flames if a Shia led it.

I'd still be making the same point if Pakistan made an absurd law against your sect.

You mean just like Malaysia?

Ofcourse I'd feel betrayed and sad because any knowledgeable person would never do that.

However, if I was born a Non-Muslim, I wouldn't dream of leading a Muslim nation because that's just irrational in my mind.

I realise that this debate has no end, however, and I rest my case.
 
I am sure brave non-Muslims fighting in our army would rejoice at your post. A lot of Wahabbis in Pakistan don't like Shias as well. For your sake I hope they never include Shias as non-Muslims.

Army and political leader are two very different entities although I know they're often mistaken for each other in Pakistan.
 
You mean just like Malaysia?

Ofcourse I'd feel betrayed and sad because any knowledgeable person would never do that.

However, if I was born a Non-Muslim, I wouldn't dream of leading a Muslim nation because that's just irrational in my mind.

I realise that this debate has no end, however, and I rest my case.

So you would feel betrayed, right? Which was my point.

Lot of nations, and it not nations millions of non-Muslims call out Israel on its brutality often. You don't need to be a Muslim to stand with Muslims. Never mind especially if they're your fellow countrymen. Its a poor point I am afraid. And also if you don't trust non-Muslims to lead us, I suppose you're also in favor of barring them from serving in the army, or becoming judges? I mean if you can't trust them to lead us, how can you trust them to fight for us in the army, or to take of care of the legal system in our country since their 'ideology' is different to quote your words. Why not bar them from that too if you're at it? Might as well become an apartheid state.

I hope for your sake we never bar Shias from anything. But when you empower bigots they eventually come after every minority.
 
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Forget Mamoon.

Ok let's take your ideal scenario.

Suppose a Christian was Pakistan's PM. Would his speech at UNGA have the same agenda, fervour and impact as Imran's at UNGA? Would it be genuine?

The whole world would feel that he is forced to do this as he has to prove loyalty to Pakistan which is the same thing we (correctly/incorrectly) assume about Indian Muslims when they speak against Pakistan.

You have to remember, this minority PM would be voted through a democratic process. This means he/she is believed to be the most viable candidate by a majority of Pakistani voters (including Muslims).

This is not the same as a quota system where undeserving candidates take the spot due to their background. No one sneaks into the PM chair.

Pakistan's current setup systematically restricts minorities from becoming a PM. This really shouldn't be happening in a democratic environment. Pakistani voters should decide whether they want a minority leader or not. With the current setup, the system is actually taking power out of the voter's (your) hands. You don't even have a say in judging a Non-Muslim's competency as a leader.
 
So you would feel betrayed, right? Which was my point.

Lot of nations, and it not nations millions of non-Muslims call out Israel on its brutality often. You don't need to be a Muslim to stand with Muslims. Never mind especially if they're your fellow countrymen. Its a poor point I am afraid. And also if you don't trust non-Muslims to lead us, I suppose you're also in favor of barring them from serving in the army, or becoming judges? I mean if you can't trust them to lead us, how can you trust them to fight for us in the army, or to take of care of the legal system in our country since their 'ideology' is different to quote your words. Why not bar them from that too if you're at it? Might as well become an apartheid state.

I hope for your sake we never bar Shias from anything. But when you empower bigots they eventually come after every minority.

Conflict of interest is something you should never underestimate.
 
Why would a non-Muslim want this job? I wouldn’t want to serve the people who hates my very existence.
 
We committed a genocide the last time a potential PM outside the exclusive ranks was a possibility.
 
Once again the topic you're pointing towards has nothing to do with this thread.

I can show you hundreds of books from hardline ulema of a specific famous sect of Islam which considers our massacre as Jihad. What can any nation/leader do about it if their teachings are widely regarded as significant in the country?

I will not post further on this as I don't want to risk an ideological war on this forum.

I would say that my point is interlinked with the topic at hand. Our state has failed to give justice to the minorities who are persecuted for the same reason why our constitution discriminates against them.

It is a lack of sensitivity and empathy for the minorities and how their suffering holds little importance for us. We are quite vocal over the increasing Hindu radicalism in India and how it has impacted the Muslim community, but we failed to realize that the minority communities in Pakistan have suffered from Islamic radicalism for 50 years now.

I would not delve on the reasons for the Shia genocide in Pakistan because I understand that it is a sensitive topic for you and for this platform, but the fact that this ideology is widespread in the country is not an excuse for the state to do nothing.

By not doing anything, they are simply facilitating this bigotry. To counter this ideology, they need to promote their counter-ideology. How often have you seen our leaders including our latest champion of human (Sunni Muslim) rights Imran Khan speak about Shias? How many tweets has he made?

It will obviously not change anything in the short-term, but there is no reason why it cannot overpower the bigoted ideology in the long-term. You have to start somewhere and take the first step.

Unfortunately it all comes down to the fact that we only pretend to care about minority rights. Our empathy for them is not genuine.
 
Pakistan is a weird hybrid mixture of a secular/Islamic state. It either needs to go full sharia or become completely secular. If it becomes secular then it needs to have a process in place to determine the best candidate for PM, regardless of religion. However, people might not vote for a non-Muslim even if Pakistan becomes a secular democracy.
 
first change the country name as Republic of Pakistan and make it secular thn change the constitution and do whatever you want to do. other thn, theres no point debating.
 
What I can't wrap my head around is that how can you present a Non-Muslim PM as ambassador of ISLAMIC nation of Pakistan? Again this does not imply that we're excluding minorities but there is not even historical precedent for it and rightfully so. You can't present an ambassador who has difference of ideology with 90% of his own people. It'd be a laughing stock.

Oh bhai put away your Pakistan Studies books and read actual history. Pakistan adopted the title of 'Islamic Republic' in 1956. Before that it was only Pakistan. Jinnah's vision wasn't to create as Islamic Republic but instead a secular independent nation where Indian Muslims could live freely without persecution.

Jinnah said: "You are free to go to your temples; you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed - that has nothing to do with the business of the State."

Jinnah envisaged Pakistan as a "homeland for India's Muslims", as opposed to an Islamic state. Pakistan isn't a theocratic state and was never meant to be one.

In January 1940, Jinnah had written an article called “The Constitutional Maladies of India” in Time and Tide where he first articulated the two nation theory. In it he argued that Hindus and Muslims were two nations and that those two nations had to work together and “share in the governance of their common motherland”, i.e. India, so that India could emerge as a “great nation”.

In fact, Jinnah took the extraordinary step of appointing a Hindu as the representative of Muslims in the interim government of India. Jogindranath Mandal was to later become the first law minister of Pakistan and also presided over the very first session of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly at Jinnah’s own request.

Jinnah’s 11 August speech did not merely promise Hindus the right to go to their temples. He also expressed the hope that “in due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in a religious sense, because that is the personal faith of an individual, but in a political sense as citizens of one state.
 
Oh bhai put away your Pakistan Studies books and read actual history. Pakistan adopted the title of 'Islamic Republic' in 1956. Before that it was only Pakistan. Jinnah's vision wasn't to create as Islamic Republic but instead a secular independent nation where Indian Muslims could live freely without persecution.

Jinnah said: "You are free to go to your temples; you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed - that has nothing to do with the business of the State."

Jinnah envisaged Pakistan as a "homeland for India's Muslims", as opposed to an Islamic state. Pakistan isn't a theocratic state and was never meant to be one.

In January 1940, Jinnah had written an article called “The Constitutional Maladies of India” in Time and Tide where he first articulated the two nation theory. In it he argued that Hindus and Muslims were two nations and that those two nations had to work together and “share in the governance of their common motherland”, i.e. India, so that India could emerge as a “great nation”.

In fact, Jinnah took the extraordinary step of appointing a Hindu as the representative of Muslims in the interim government of India. Jogindranath Mandal was to later become the first law minister of Pakistan and also presided over the very first session of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly at Jinnah’s own request.

Jinnah’s 11 August speech did not merely promise Hindus the right to go to their temples. He also expressed the hope that “in due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in a religious sense, because that is the personal faith of an individual, but in a political sense as citizens of one state.

It is quite interesting that while our state and the public venerates Quaid-e-Azam, they have completely forgotten and ignored his views on the role of military in politics and the rights of minorities. Two aspects that have destroyed the fabric of the nation and created the mess that we are in today.
 
Even if it’s allowed it would be just cosmetic because it would never happen really.

So I guess for the heck of it they should’ve just allowed it anyway

Exactly...you get the brownie points from western media without actually having to deal with the reality, I argued the same in other thread.
 
It’s all for show. Their cult leader didn’t even let an Ahmadi sit on his economic council and his provincial government are forcing women wear burqas.

lol.

why are you upset?

are you upset that 'The Cult' does not think the way you want them to think?

I think it is about time that you leave your 'Cult' and come back to reality.

I you have spent enough time being the member of the righteous ones and the only genius ones of Pakistan.
 
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When Sajid Javid announced that he would join the race for 10 Downing Street earlier this year, the news was met with a joyous reception in Pakistan. Just the thought that a man who was raised in a Muslim household was even in contention to become the next prime minister of Britain was seen as a matter of great pride; after all, we feel it is imperative that all other nations ensure an equal access to opportunities for all religious minorities and do not discriminate on the basis of religion.

Sajid Javid is probably not a great example to give as he has openly said he is not religious, the only religion which holds sway in his house is that of his wife who is quite a committed Christian.

But I suppose the same token could hold. Just as Sajid, like many Muslims, has adopted the beliefs and culture of the country he calls home, so many non-Muslims could adopt the beliefs and culture of their home in Pakistan and they should also be allowed to aim for leadership of the country.
 
Doesn't the same part of the constitution also say that any potential PM/President must have "adequate knowledge of Islamic teachings and practices obligatory duties prescribed by Islam as well as abstains from major sins"?

The 'major sins' part would surely exclude almost everyone.
 
[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION]

If you had actually read my posts instead of skimming through it, you would've saved yourself some time.

I never opposed any sort of Non-Muslim representation in any government office/ministry.
My view was that only the post of PM/President should be reserved for a Muslim.

Besides, Jogindernath Mahal was Law Minister not the chairman of Muslim League.

Show me one instance where the All-India Muslim League was led by a Non-Muslim (Aga Khan III doesn't count because Ismailis aren't designated Non-Muslims).
 
Because Most Muslim Pakistanis can't dream of becoming Prime Minister or President of Pakistan.
 
The current Prime minister of Pakistan doesn’t have the greatest Muslim character or history, but he was born with a Muslim name and Muslim parents so it’s all cool.
 
The current Prime minister of Pakistan doesn’t have the greatest Muslim character or history, but he was born with a Muslim name and Muslim parents so it’s all cool.

Depends what you consider to be worthy Muslim character or history.
 
Depends what you consider to be worthy Muslim character or history.

By Muslim character I mean someone who actually follows the articles of Islam making him standout as a human, hence the entire purpose of the partition so that the essence of this identity can exist as a seperate nation.

Imran Khan is as good as any good hearted Hindu, Christian or Ahmadi.
 
By Muslim character I mean someone who actually follows the articles of Islam making him standout as a human, hence the entire purpose of the partition so that the essence of this identity can exist as a seperate nation.

Imran Khan is as good as any good hearted Hindu, Christian or Ahmadi.

Why not as good as any good hearted Muslim?
 
You know exactly the point I am making.

I think you are coming from a fundamentalist view of what makes up Muslim character, which is fair enough if that is your view, but not really reflected in the vast majority of the population of Pakistan. When you start going down that road, then you are heading for some big time disputes among large sections of Pakistanis who differ on their own various versions of what is or isn't a Muslim.
 
I think you are coming from a fundamentalist view of what makes up Muslim character, which is fair enough if that is your view, but not really reflected in the vast majority of the population of Pakistan. When you start going down that road, then you are heading for some big time disputes among large sections of Pakistanis who differ on their own various versions of what is or isn't a Muslim.

Precisely, so why do we have a simple condition that only a muslim can be the leader of Pakistan? Islam is not the overall representation of identity for Pakistanis.
 
Precisely, so why do we have a simple condition that only a muslim can be the leader of Pakistan? Islam is not the overall representation of identity for Pakistanis.

It's still the most recognisable identity due to partition. Maybe once the country gets over it you will see a more open attitude to what the identity is.
 
I think leader of a country should always come from majority. It prevents unpleasant situations.

Minorities need to understand that being minority has some natural drawbacks.
 
I think leader of a country should always come from majority. It prevents unpleasant situations.

Minorities need to understand that being minority has some natural drawbacks.

No one is saying leader should come from minority but allowing it is symbolic , its about that at best where constitution doesn’t differentiate.
 
[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION]

If you had actually read my posts instead of skimming through it, you would've saved yourself some time.

I never opposed any sort of Non-Muslim representation in any government office/ministry.
My view was that only the post of PM/President should be reserved for a Muslim.

Besides, Jogindernath Mahal was Law Minister not the chairman of Muslim League.

Show me one instance where the All-India Muslim League was led by a Non-Muslim (Aga Khan III doesn't count because Ismailis aren't designated Non-Muslims).

Show me where in the charter of the All India Muslim league does it say that Non-Muslims cannot take part in elections to for the president. Just because no one was elected to become president has nothing to do with the discussion we are having. Fact of the matter is Non-Muslims had the right to contest elections and become president which is something denied to them in Pakistan.
 
Muslim League was not an organized party with democratic values; it was a movement. It solely existed to protect Muslim rights and give them political clout, so they couldn’t have had a non-Muslim leader.
 
Guys, do not feed the troll. Mamoon has stated he voted for Imran. Take everything Mamoon says with a pinch of salt, or just read the newspaper headlines, because that's exactly what he rehashes.

I suggest the rest of you actually sit down to understand what a Republic based on religion is. For 1, it is non secular. Religion will always play a role in the governing of said nation. Just go take a look at the restrictions in Israel and Iran, instead of singling out Pakistan's constitution and model of governance.
 
Israel wasn’t created for religion, but rather for race. One can be a Jewish Atheist, a Jewish Muslim, a Jewish Christian, etc. because the term Jewish here refers to the race. Most Jews are Atheists and they don’t care much for non Jews who practice Judaism, such as the Africans who practice Judaism and live in Israel, as they are treated as second class citizens.

The right to return law applies only to people of the Jewish race and not to those that practice Judaism.
 
It is Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

A Muslim should never follow a non-Muslim as a leader.
 
It doesn't matter what Jinnah or the muslim league or anyone else wanted, they are not Who we follow in religion, If Muslims are in a position of power it is absolutely not Allowed that A non muslim be the leader of the country.
 
It doesn't matter what Jinnah or the muslim league or anyone else wanted, they are not Who we follow in religion, If Muslims are in a position of power it is absolutely not Allowed that A non muslim be the leader of the country.

How are your equating religion and country here? Are you saying Canadian PM is not better than Shariffs and Bhuttos for Canadian’s Muslim citizens?
 
A country established in the name of Islam can not have a non Muslim leader. This would be like an Islamic army having a Christian commander. Most people do not understand the difference between a country formed in the name of Islam and a majority Muslim country. The only other country comparable to Pak in this regard is Israel not the USA or the UK. Lolz at those who wants Pak to have a non-Muslim PM or President.
 
The US was also built on slavery yet isn't anymore.

Historical attitudes don't need to continue just because it is historical.

Except slavery wasn't the foundation of the constitution, the Bill of Rights was - without it America would lose its character, likewise Pakistan's foundation was Islam which is what the constitution is based on.
 
A country established in the name of Islam can not have a non Muslim leader. This would be like an Islamic army having a Christian commander. Most people do not understand the difference between a country formed in the name of Islam and a majority Muslim country. The only other country comparable to Pak in this regard is Israel not the USA or the UK. Lolz at those who wants Pak to have a non-Muslim PM or President.


This is not true. I'll copy paste my reply from earlier

Pakistan adopted the title of 'Islamic Republic' in 1956. Before that it was only Pakistan. Jinnah's vision wasn't to create as Islamic Republic but instead a secular independent nation where Indian Muslims could live freely without persecution.

Jinnah said: "You are free to go to your temples; you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed - that has nothing to do with the business of the State."

Jinnah envisaged Pakistan as a "homeland for India's Muslims", as opposed to an Islamic state. Pakistan isn't a theocratic state and was never meant to be one.

In January 1940, Jinnah had written an article called “The Constitutional Maladies of India” in Time and Tide where he first articulated the two nation theory. In it he argued that Hindus and Muslims were two nations and that those two nations had to work together and “share in the governance of their common motherland”, i.e. India, so that India could emerge as a “great nation”.

In fact, Jinnah took the extraordinary step of appointing a Hindu as the representative of Muslims in the interim government of India. Jogindranath Mandal was to later become the first law minister of Pakistan and also presided over the very first session of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly at Jinnah’s own request.

Jinnah’s 11 August speech did not merely promise Hindus the right to go to their temples. He also expressed the hope that “in due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in a religious sense, because that is the personal faith of an individual, but in a political sense as citizens of one state.
 
It doesn't matter what Jinnah or the muslim league or anyone else wanted, they are not Who we follow in religion, If Muslims are in a position of power it is absolutely not Allowed that A non muslim be the leader of the country.

So you're saying you'd rather have your country led by someone like Nawaz or Zardari as opposed to a Churchill or an Obama?
 
How are your equating religion and country here? Are you saying Canadian PM is not better than Shariffs and Bhuttos for Canadian’s Muslim citizens?

Canada is not Dar ul islam , Pakistan is, different scenarios.
 
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