Why can’t a non-Muslim dream of becoming the prime minister or president of Pakistan?

[Kroll]

So you are chest thumping about implementing a blatantly discriminatory laws over deficient execution of a fair laws.
The moral Compass is really set in the true direction.

No, I already said I was not in favour

 

[sweep_shot]

Suffice to say that British Muslims bear as much loyalty to the king as any other subjects. If anything they are probably less critical than the anti-monarchists who are mostly left wing white liberals. This allegiance to the king is akin to swearing oaths to the bible in court in a country which no longer believes in Christianity.

You are just resorting to name calling and semantics now. Don't you have any real points to raise?

Despite all these attacks, Islam continues to flourish worldwide. More people convert to Islam than any other religion and there are now close to 2-billion Muslims worldwide. Alhamdulillah.

Reminds me of this ayah:

They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it. (Al-Quran - 9:32)

 

[sweep_shot]

This is not a verse, but a narration. Surely you must know the difference.

quran vs sunnah is a contradiction for the ages. Pick one, you can't have both.

muslims are rudderless for a reason.

I know these are narrations known as hadiths. Maybe I should've used another word. Anyway, my point is you were posting things without context.

It seems like you are implying (perhaps deliberately) that Islam encourages Muslims to be violent toward non-Muslims. That's not true at all as you can see in the below verse:

Allah does not forbid you from dealing kindly and fairly with those who have neither fought nor driven you out of your homes. Surely Allah loves those who are fair. (Al-Quran, chapter 60, ayah 8)

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Not sure how any of that addressed what I actually said. Do you really think that people who swear oaths on the bible in British courts believe in Christianity as per the good book?

My statement already answers your question, If they don't believe in the oath they are taking, its just cowardice or convenience. None are signs of conviction or courage.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My statement already answers your question, If they don't believe in the oath they are taking, its just cowardice or convenience. None are signs of conviction or courage.

So that makes the large majority of the people of England including the white English themselves cowards or convenients. Is that your position? Before you try to worm your way out of it, you should know that people who believe in God in England are a minority according to recent census.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

So that makes the large majority of the people of England including the white English themselves cowards or convenients. Is that your position? Before you try to worm your way out of it, you should know that people who believe in God in England are a minority according to recent census.

Yes!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yes!

I think British people don't take such literal views and for them oaths on the bible are symbolic. You may not understand this but I presume you live in India where the mindset is different. You do live in India right?

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

I think British people don't take such literal views and for them oaths on the bible are symbolic. You may not understand this but I presume you live in India where the mindset is different. You do live in India right?

Read my post again, its in plain English.

Oaths are only meant for men of courage and conviction. Rest just twist their implications and meaning out of cowardice or convenience. Take your pick.

Take your pick, was it cowardice or convenience for you?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Read my post again, its in plain English.

Take your pick, was it cowardice or convenience for you?

You didn't answer a simple question. Do you live in India?

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

You didn't answer a simple question. Do you live in India?

Have you answered mine?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Canada's citizenship oath: I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance To His Majesty King Charles the Third...

England's citizenship oath: I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles Third, his Heirs and Successors, according to the law. I will give my loyalty to the United Kingdom...

Apparently pakistanis with canadian/british passports bear loyalty to a human king. In addition to allah.

Of course theekedars of islam, their preaching/deeds are in contradiction. Munafiqs.

Where exactly is hypocrisy you are going on about here?

 

[Justcrazy]

My dear it is Sanatan Dharma which came into being milleniums before Islam which seems to have copied many concepts from Sanatani vedas yet there are incredible inaccurate like Earth being flat. Sanatan Dharma is liberating by nature not binding.

Okay .

We will talk about earth being flat mentioned in Quran a bit latter .

First kindly tell us which scriptures of sanatan you believe are in authentic form today from where Muhammad Copied the Quran from , also you need to show how Muhammad , who spoke only knew old Arabic , read the Vedic sanaskrit , or when was the first Arabic translation was available ?

 

[Justcrazy]

Despite all these attacks, Islam continues to flourish worldwide. More people convert to Islam than any other religion and there are now close to 2-billion Muslims worldwide. Alhamdulillah.

Reminds me of this ayah:

They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it. (Al-Quran - 9:32)

The reason is that all these anti Islam sites or people have a dossier of 20 - 25 questions against Islam , which they keep repeating even though they have been answered 1000 times. They keep asking same thing again and again.

Here also I find the same pattern. When you answer them , they will jump to next point , instead of accepting there mistake in first place. The discussion is not for intellectual purpose but just for trolling.

And another thing I have noticed these days is that several Hindus and Christians pretend to be atheist and come forward. Reason is that they want to troll Islam but are reluctant to defend there own beliefs.

 

[Farhan The Man]

It seems like you are implying (perhaps deliberately) that Islam encourages Muslims to be violent toward non-Muslims.

sunnah deliberately subverts qurannic teachings.

The context is in sahih narration: umar to ferociously subjugate foreign subjects who have done no harm. Two choices: convert or pay.

Replicating umar's brutal tone here. Pick one: quran or sunnah.

 

[Bhaijaan]

The only thing a non Muslim dreams of in Pakistan is to get the hell out of there.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The reason is that all these anti Islam sites or people have a dossier of 20 - 25 questions against Islam , which they keep repeating even though they have been answered 1000 times. They keep asking same thing again and again.

Here also I find the same pattern. When you answer them , they will jump to next point , instead of accepting there mistake in first place. The discussion is not for intellectual purpose but just for trolling.

And another thing I have noticed these days is that several Hindus and Christians pretend to be atheist and come forward. Reason is that they want to troll Islam but are reluctant to defend there own beliefs.

After seeing their lectures online about discrimination etc I read more about some aspects of their beliefs and was chilled to the core.

Even now low castes are refused entry to some temples. In one area just recently once the low castes entered the temple authorities and locals removed the idols so they couldn't worship.

These guys subject large numbers of their coreligionists to the most miserable existence ever and then lecture us on discrimination

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Have you answered mine?

The answer to your question: neither.

Now answer mine: do you live in India? Not sure why this is seen as problematic for you and you are twisting every way to avoid it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

In similar vein, who's to say muslim allegiance to islam holds any water.

It's obvious from your deeds of funding israeli armaments whilst running foul mouths against judeo-christian hosts is hypocrisy personified.

"Surely the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire" - Quran 4:145

Yes you are right, Muslims can be hypocrites, they don't have some special DNA which makes them superior. But how is that relevant? The Hindu who raised the original point was trying to say that Muslims don't believe in allegiance to the King of England without proof - although he as gone all coy when I asked him where he currently resides.

 

[Justcrazy]

After seeing their lectures online about discrimination etc I read more about some aspects of their beliefs and was chilled to the core.

Even now low castes are refused entry to some temples. In one area just recently once the low castes entered the temple authorities and locals removed the idols so they couldn't worship.

These guys subject large numbers of their coreligionists to the most miserable existence ever and then lecture us on discrimination

Look caste system is part of hindu scriptures , not a cultural thing . There is NO way you can separate them from religion.

Now the modern day Hindus will shun it and proudly say we have got rid of ill things in our religion. What they do not understand is that they are negating the very religion they are following. If you believe your religion to be divine in nature , then this act of yours implies that Divine source is inferior to human mind. If such is the case, such God or Gods or authority is NOT worthy of worshiping.

Superior beings do not worship inferior ones.

 

[IndoorCricket]

Look caste system is part of hindu scriptures , not a cultural thing . There is NO way you can separate them from religion.

Now the modern day Hindus will shun it and proudly say we have got rid of ill things in our religion. What they do not understand is that they are negating the very religion they are following. If you believe your religion to be divine in nature , then this act of yours implies that Divine source is inferior to human mind. If such is the case, such God or Gods or authority is NOT worthy of worshiping.

Superior beings do not worship inferior ones.

Caste system part of our scriptures and yes they are called varnas and it's based on what a person does with their life and depending on occupation. A shudra can become a Brahmin by seeking brahma, a sudhra can become a khastriya by picking out arms and fighting against adharma. They are not set in stone.

Hindus reject modern casteism based on untouchability. We have quite a few scriptures which has different take. on varna.

 

[IndoorCricket]

Look caste system is part of hindu scriptures , not a cultural thing . There is NO way you can separate them from religion.

Now the modern day Hindus will shun it and proudly say we have got rid of ill things in our religion. What they do not understand is that they are negating the very religion they are following. If you believe your religion to be divine in nature , then this act of yours implies that Divine source is inferior to human mind. If such is the case, such God or Gods or authority is NOT worthy of worshiping.

Superior beings do not worship inferior ones.

Btw these references are Bhaghavad Gita. The most revered hindu holy scriptures.

 

[IndoorCricket]

BG 18.41: Chapter 18, Verse 41 – Bhagavad Gita, The Song of God – Swami Mukundananda

BG 18.41: The duties of the Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, and Shudras—are distributed according to their qualities, … Commentary: Someone said very appropriately that to find the perfect profession is like finding a perfect life-partner. But how do we discover the perfect profession …

www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org

This verse to be precise.

 

[Justcrazy]

Caste system part of our scriptures and yes they are called varnas and it's based on what a person does with their life and depending on occupation. A shudra can become a Brahmin by seeking brahma, a sudhra can become a khastriya by picking out arms and fighting against adharma. They are not set in stone.

Btw these references are Bhaghavad Gita. The most revered hindu holy scriptures.

Hindus reject modern casteism based on untouchability. We have quite a few scriptures which has different take. on varna.

Bhagwad Gita is most popular hindu scripture ,not most revered. Gita is a book of philosophy , not jurisprudence . It falls under smriti , you yourself go and ask any Hindu scholar whether smriti is superior to shruti ?

Once you answer this I will go further in the discussion , thank you .

 

[IndoorCricket]

Bhagwad Gita is most popular hindu scripture ,not most revered. Gita is a book of philosophy , not jurisprudence . It falls under smriti , you yourself go and ask any Hindu scholar whether smriti is superior to shruti ?

Once you answer this I will go further in the discussion , thank you .

There is a counter argument saying Gita is Shruti because it is revealed by Krishna himself but under the context of mahabharath which is smriti.
Gita is most revered along with Vedas and upanishads and also it's most popular.

 

[Farhan The Man]

Yes you are right, Muslims can be hypocrites, they don't have some special DNA which makes them superior. But how is that relevant?

But of course we passed the all stages of acceptance.

islam is not a "perfect" religion with it's inherent idiosyncrasies and contradictions. It is indeed at par with other man made anomalies of hinduism, christianity, judaism et al.

That hindu you refer to as shying away, is not the only one. But also these munafiqs who conveniently leech off western civilizations whilst still reveling brutalities of prophet and his merry friends as "perfect". islam is just as inferior if not more.

This tails aptly into scrubbing leadership filter as being muslim. It has no relevance in a meritocratic society.

 

[IndoorCricket]

Bhagwad Gita is most popular hindu scripture ,not most revered. Gita is a book of philosophy , not jurisprudence . It falls under smriti , you yourself go and ask any Hindu scholar whether smriti is superior to shruti ?

Once you answer this I will go further in the discussion , thank you .

Even if go by vedas there is only varna system and not a system of discrimination. It is division of society is to groups based on gunas aka the qualities of a person. More over vedas prescribe everything is god. If everything is god how can there be discrimination?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

But of course we passed the all stages of acceptance.

islam is not a "perfect" religion with it's inherent idiosyncrasies and contradictions. It is indeed at par with other man made anomalies of hinduism, christianity, judaism et al.

That hindu you refer to as shying away, is not the only one. But also these munafiqs who conveniently leech off western civilizations whilst still reveling brutalities of prophet and his merry friends as "perfect". islam is just as inferior if not more.

This tails aptly into scrubbing leadership filter as being muslim. It has no relevance in a meritocratic society.

Not really sure what is your point here. Islam is a man made religion seems to be the first part...many critics have this opinion which is fine.

Muslims are leeches seems to be the second...again a generalisation but it might be a reflection of the society you have grown up in and your family environment so fair enough.

The last part about scrubbing leadership filter as being Muslim has no part in a meritocratic society. Maybe not, but that means there is no point in having a non-Muslim leader of such a society which agrees with the premise of Pakistan leadership.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Bhagwad Gita is most popular hindu scripture ,not most revered. Gita is a book of philosophy , not jurisprudence . It falls under smriti , you yourself go and ask any Hindu scholar whether smriti is superior to shruti ?

Once you answer this I will go further in the discussion , thank you .

JUST CRAZY are certain claims about a culture and religion one has no idea about!
Its simply lovely to see how a topic on a discriminatory law in modern Pakistan gets diverted to ancient Hindu scriptures. I guess the deep seated desire to rejoin Akhand Bharat truly exists

What do you think @Bhaijaan, Muslims studying and discussing ancient sources of Sanaatan in depth? Ghar Vapsi can happen for these wayward souls !

 

[Bhaijaan]

JUST CRAZY are certain claims about a culture and religion one has no idea about!
Its simply lovely to see how a topic on a discriminatory law in modern Pakistan gets diverted to ancient Hindu scriptures. I guess the deep seated desire to rejoin Akhand Bharat truly exists

What do you think @Bhaijaan, Muslims studying and discussing ancient sources of Sanaatan in depth? Ghar Vapsi can happen for these wayward souls !

Sanatan will always be a part of Pakistani soul. The bond with ancestors cannot be easily broken.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Guys, this thread is not for discussing Hinduism

 

[Justcrazy]

Even if go by vedas there is only varna system and not a system of discrimination. It is division of society is to groups based on gunas aka the qualities of a person. More over vedas prescribe everything is god. If everything is god how can there be discrimination?

Brother , do you agree with what I wrote in my previous post ? Do you agree that shruti is superior to smriti ?

 

[IndoorCricket]

Brother , do you agree with what I wrote in my previous post ? Do you agree that shruti is superior to smriti ?

Shruti is authoritative over smriti

 

[Farhan The Man]

Things do get ominous when you read constitution of islamic republic of pakistan. Small wonder sunnah followers are the wildest bunch with a free reign to loot and pillage.

227. (1) All existing laws shall be brought in conformity with the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah, in this part referred to as the Injunctions of Islam, and no law shall be enacted which is repugnant to such Injunctions.

[Explanation.—In the application of this clause to the personal law of any Muslim sect, the expression "Quran and Sunnah "shall mean the Quran and Sunnah as interpreted by the sect.]

 

[Justcrazy]

There is a counter argument saying Gita is Shruti because it is revealed by Krishna himself but under the context of mahabharath which is smriti.
Gita is most revered along with Vedas and upanishads and also it's most popular.

JUST CRAZY are certain claims about a culture and religion one has no idea about!
Its simply lovely to see how a topic on a discriminatory law in modern Pakistan gets diverted to ancient Hindu scriptures. I guess the deep seated desire to rejoin Akhand Bharat truly exists

What do you think @Bhaijaan, Muslims studying and discussing ancient sources of Sanaatan in depth? Ghar Vapsi can happen for these wayward souls !

I am not a shudra , so I can get to know hindu scriptures

 

[Champ_Pal]

I am not a shudra , so I can get to know hindu scriptures

There is no restriction now. Anyone can read Hindu scriptures including Vedas. There are many Dalit priests that read Vedas now.

Even during Manu dude days, only Vedas were out of reach for Non-Brahmins. Anyone could read Ramayana or Bhagavad Gita.

Everyone can rest easy and read Vedas. RSS and Hindutva people encourage everyone to read Vedas and other scriptures.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Yes you are right, Muslims can be hypocrites, they don't have some special DNA which makes them superior. But how is that relevant? The Hindu who raised the original point was trying to say that Muslims don't believe in allegiance to the King of England without proof - although he as gone all coy when I asked him where he currently resides.

I say there should be a study done on this.

Holy Quran clearly states that Muslims are the best community ever raised. So there could be something in Muslim DNA that makes them the best.

Surah Ali 'Imran - 1-200 - Quran.com

Read and listen to Surah Ali 'Imran. The Surah was revealed in Medina, ordered 3 in the Quran. The Surah title means "Family of Imran" in English and ...

quran.com

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I say there should be a study done on this.

Holy Quran clearly states that Muslims are the best community ever raised. So there could be something in Muslim DNA that makes them the best.

Surah Ali 'Imran - 1-200 - Quran.com

Read and listen to Surah Ali 'Imran. The Surah was revealed in Medina, ordered 3 in the Quran. The Surah title means "Family of Imran" in English and ...

quran.com

If that were the case then there would be no hypocrites or fake believers. Best community raised would refer to those who try to follow the codes laid out by God rather than DNA, otherwise there would be no need for proletysation.

 

[JaDed]

Would he/she want to be one though? If you want the best for your country they throw you behind bars anyway and create all kind of stupid cases against you, if they can do this to their mentally strongest personality I can’t even imagine what they will to do a Non-Muslim genuine leader.

 

[Red-Indian]

Would he/she want to be one though? If you want the best for your country they throw you behind bars anyway and create all kind of stupid cases against you, if they can do this to their mentally strongest personality I can’t even imagine what they will to do a Non-Muslim genuine leader.

Yes it's true that no non-Muslim is likely to be able to win the support of a Muslim-majority country to become leader.

The point remain that it's a form of apartheid though. To say to someone that you can be a citizen of a country but you can't aspire to lead it is a pretty clear form of bigotry. I know plenty of Pakistani posters will say that it's a contradiction in terms for an Islamic country to have a non-Islamic leader. It's an absurd argument though. Would it have been okay for South Africa to call itself a white nation and say that it's impossible for a black person to lead the country?

 

[Justcrazy]

There is no restriction now. Anyone can read Hindu scriptures including Vedas. There are many Dalit priests that read Vedas now.

Even during Manu dude days, only Vedas were out of reach for Non-Brahmins. Anyone could read Ramayana or Bhagavad Gita.

Everyone can rest easy and read Vedas. RSS and Hindutva people encourage everyone to read Vedas and other scriptures.

Why everything has to be Now? Is Hinduism a new religion , when they proudly say we are eternal religion , then why everything is NOW !

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Would he/she want to be one though? If you want the best for your country they throw you behind bars anyway and create all kind of stupid cases against you, if they can do this to their mentally strongest personality I can’t even imagine what they will to do a Non-Muslim genuine leader.

Good point. Sad but true

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Yes it's true that no non-Muslim is likely to be able to win the support of a Muslim-majority country to become leader.

The point remain that it's a form of apartheid though. To say to someone that you can be a citizen of a country but you can't aspire to lead it is a pretty clear form of bigotry. I know plenty of Pakistani posters will say that it's a contradiction in terms for an Islamic country to have a non-Islamic leader. It's an absurd argument though. Would it have been okay for South Africa to call itself a white nation and say that it's impossible for a black person to lead the country?

You are right and I agree with you mostly. It's discriminatory for sure but I don't think we can call it apartheid.

 

[ghalib kichlu]

Yes it's true that no non-Muslim is likely to be able to win the support of a Muslim-majority country to become leader.

The point remain that it's a form of apartheid though. To say to someone that you can be a citizen of a country but you can't aspire to lead it is a pretty clear form of bigotry. I know plenty of Pakistani posters will say that it's a contradiction in terms for an Islamic country to have a non-Islamic leader. It's an absurd argument though. Would it have been okay for South Africa to call itself a white nation and say that it's impossible for a black person to lead the country?

If you said this on a pakistani forum in Pakistan without using a vpn you would get charged with blasphemy
You should consider yourself lucky you have a voice to raise your objections

 

[Red-Indian]

You are right and I agree with you mostly. It's discriminatory for sure but I don't think we can call it apartheid.

Not sure what else it can be called. It's denial of civil rights to a category of citizens. Are you saying it's not apartheid because the discrimination is not based on race but on religion? Sure but that's only a technical out.

 

[Farhan The Man]

If you said this on a pakistani forum in Pakistan without using a vpn you would get charged with blasphemy
You should consider yourself lucky you have a voice to raise your objections

This is IT.

pakistani islam is forever weaponized to control its citizens.

And there are sheep who follow this organized madness to a tee. daari, burka, and all the works.

 

[guard]

Where exactly is hypocrisy you are going on about here?

Ignore him/her, its a troll account. Nothing more. Spouting B.S to provoke, these random accounts seem to popping up on PP with ferocious fervour.

 

[guard]

You are right and I agree with you mostly. It's discriminatory for sure but I don't think we can call it apartheid.

With the way Pakistan has been running these last few decades, i dont think any non-muslim would want to tbh. Complete purge is required

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Not sure what else it can be called. It's denial of civil rights to a category of citizens. Are you saying it's not apartheid because the discrimination is not based on race but on religion? Sure but that's only a technical out.

Yeah just a technicality. Apartheid has a specific legal definition. It's still discrimination.

 

[Red-Indian]

Yeah just a technicality. Apartheid has a specific legal definition. It's still discrimination.

Fair enough.