Why do so many South Asians living the Arabian Gulf not know how to speak Arabic?

[Giannis]

Millions of South Asians live in the Arabian gulf, the first waves of migrants were over 50 years ago and many have been living there for several decades. There are numerous South Asians that were born and raised in these countries yet most of them don't know how to speak Arabic, I know some of the Muslim ones do learn Arabic more out religious reasons however in general the communities don't bother to learn the language in spite of living there for so long. I came across this video of this Arab guy checking out the local Indian community in Dubai and he asked the same question to his host, a Dubai-raised Indian girl. South Asians generally learn the language of the host country whereever they migrate to, do you think it's because of Arabs being a minority in their own lands or because the Desis are segregated and live in their own communities and attend different schools? Personally if I lived a decade in an Arab country I would learn Arabic to high fluency levels, it's not that hard to learn. I know of reverts here in America who have never been to the middle east who can speak Arabic at a conversational level, there are so many resources to learn and a lot of these South Asians living the gulf are wealthy businessmen and educated professionals who don't have the excuse of being "poor and uneducated" that can be afforded to the laborers/working class desis.

 

[Giannis]

I will give some credit to South Asian Muslims who still learn how to read Arabic.

 

[LongHorn]

I am South Asian, grew up in the Gulf, and speak near perfect Arabic in a generic Gulf accent. This topic is very close to my heart and i can write pages on it

There are many reasons, some cultural, some socieoeconomic and of course it depends on the actual Gulf country as dynamics in Jeddah are every different from Dubai or Muscat

1) You have to realize there is something called pidgin Arabic, this type of broken Arabic is used very commonly in UAE, Qatar, Bahrain and so on, and a huge number of South Asian shopkeepers, drivers, construction foremen, small businessmen speak it.
To a native speaker, it may sound awful, but they themselves use it, as it is easy to learn

But heres the catch, any non-Arab who starts with pidgin Arabic, will find it doubly hard to learn Fus-ha Arabic......

And a lot of Desis who use this broken Arabic claim to be fluent in Arabic, but in reality, they are not.

If you have lived in the Gulf you would know it, its Arabic with a huge number of Urdu/Farsi input

E.g. "enta khabber mudeer, ana mai reed sawwi shugul " or "wain saman mal enta?"

this is pure murder of Arabic grammer, but convenient and so used among the people i mentioned


2) One misconcept in your post - proper Arabic is considered notoriously difficult to learn, the regular kaifa haluka is easy but 95% of the reverts you mention will find it difficult to hold a regular conversation in Arabic with a native Arab. The reason many Arabs continue to speak Arabic with them is out of politeness

3) If you look at Qatar and UAE for e.g., a huge number of natives can speak really good English, and so when they see someone not of a labor or shopkeeper class, they switch to English for convenience.
This is less true in Oman and Saudi Arabia and there a lot of natives prefer to use limited Arabic

 

[Slog]

Because there are so many damn desis there

There’s more desis in places like a Dubai, Doha than actual natives

 

[LongHorn]

4) Are Desis segregated? Yes, but every single expat community lives segregated lives in most parts of the Gulf. Native Gulf citizens interact on a limited level with Egyptians or Syrians outside work. Westerners hardly deal with South Asians on an close basis on a family level and so on

Yes schools may be common, and people may hang out when single such as playing sports, but if you look on a family level, or for stuff like marriages, vast majority of expat communities stick inwards. Again this is more true for Riyadh, Kuwait than Dubai, where there is more intermingling....

Is that a cause for not knowing Arabic? Yes

5) If you come and spend 6 months in Dubai, you will find virtually every single person you meet knows either limited English or Urdu/Hindi. There is hardly much incentive to learn Arabic as people know another language, and not a single govt procedure requires you to know Arabic (With exception of judicial matters)

6) If you look at a place linke the UAE, there is a reason why the local govt and native citizens do not insist on Desis using Arabic.
The government has for last 15 years worked in developing a native identity rather than a joint shared Arab identity, as doing the latter empowers poorer Arabs from Egypt, Jordan etc. to demand preferential treatment including financial benefits, and this is something that is a sensitive matter (and was one of causes of kuwait invasion)

This is not true for Saudi Arabia as there is a large native Saudi base. But somewhat true for UAE and Bahrain

 

[Varun]

You don't need to learn Arabic to live in the Gulf, much in the same way you don't need to learn Kannada to live in Bangalore.

 

[Giannis]

You don't need to learn Arabic to live in the Gulf, much in the same way you don't need to learn Kannada to live in Bangalore.

yes, but it's good to learn to learn the native tongue. I'd be ashamed and feel like missed a golden oppurtunity if I didn't learn the national language of an area I lived in for an extended period (12 months +)

 

[Giannis]

I am South Asian, grew up in the Gulf, and speak near perfect Arabic in a generic Gulf accent. This topic is very close to my heart and i can write pages on it

There are many reasons, some cultural, some socieoeconomic and of course it depends on the actual Gulf country as dynamics in Jeddah are every different from Dubai or Muscat

1) You have to realize there is something called pidgin Arabic, this type of broken Arabic is used very commonly in UAE, Qatar, Bahrain and so on, and a huge number of South Asian shopkeepers, drivers, construction foremen, small businessmen speak it.
To a native speaker, it may sound awful, but they themselves use it, as it is easy to learn

But heres the catch, any non-Arab who starts with pidgin Arabic, will find it doubly hard to learn Fus-ha Arabic......

And a lot of Desis who use this broken Arabic claim to be fluent in Arabic, but in reality, they are not.

If you have lived in the Gulf you would know it, its Arabic with a huge number of Urdu/Farsi input

E.g. "enta khabber mudeer, ana mai reed sawwi shugul " or "wain saman mal enta?"

this is pure murder of Arabic grammer, but convenient and so used among the people i mentioned


2) One misconcept in your post - proper Arabic is considered notoriously difficult to learn, the regular kaifa haluka is easy but 95% of the reverts you mention will find it difficult to hold a regular conversation in Arabic with a native Arab. The reason many Arabs continue to speak Arabic with them is out of politeness

3) If you look at Qatar and UAE for e.g., a huge number of natives can speak really good English, and so when they see someone not of a labor or shopkeeper class, they switch to English for convenience.
This is less true in Oman and Saudi Arabia and there a lot of natives prefer to use limited Arabic

Because there are so many damn desis there

There’s more desis in places like a Dubai, Doha than actual natives

Makes sense but how did the Ajam assimilate so easily. Half of Oman is Baloch yet they gave up their language and now only speak Arabic, even the older South Asian immigrants from the 19th century and earlier who are part of the Ajami community have assimilated and are Arabized, same is true for the Turkis and the Farsis and Sinis (Chinese) and Chechens etc, they all came in large numbers, live in their own areas but eventually adopted arabic yet modern post-Oil boom migrants from both the West and East don't learn Arabic.

 

[LongHorn]

Makes sense but how did the Ajam assimilate so easily. Half of Oman is Baloch yet they gave up their language and now only speak Arabic, even the older South Asian immigrants from the 19th century and earlier who are part of the Ajami community have assimilated and are Arabized, same is true for the Turkis and the Farsis and Sinis (Chinese) and Chechens etc, they all came in large numbers, live in their own areas but eventually adopted arabic yet modern post-Oil boom migrants from both the West and East don't learn Arabic.

That is because the time they came to the Gulf, Arabic was predominant....

So it made sense for them to speak Arabic and learn it

Also before the oil boom, tribes who settled did so under a tacit expectation that they may be able to stay there for a few generations, and so there was a bigger incentive in assimilating

After the 70s it became clear that 99.9% of immigrants would be there for a temporary period. Of course people do end up staying for multiple generations (such as me), but still the implicit agreement is that this is temporary

But there are families of mixed origin (Irani or Balochi) also including Pakistani, who have adopted Arabic, and are hoping that they may be granted leave to stay. They move around in native dressing and old timers like me can tell them apart but newcomers cannot. They speak Arabic often even in their homes. They are very common in Dubai/Sharjah, but rarer in Abu Dhabi

Btw, there are still Iranian origin families who speak their native languages inside their homes, but outside it is only Arabic

 

[LongHorn]

All what I wrote applies mostly to the eastern Gulf

Jeddah for instance has a whole different sub-culture with generations of Umrah/Haj visitors overstaying and eventually becoming Saudis. Their Arabic would also be impeccable (Indonesian/Chinese origin Saudis are there in Jeddah).

 

[Technics 1210]

There are immigrants from 60s/70s living in the UK who can barley string a sentence in English. What's your point?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Makes sense but how did the Ajam assimilate so easily. Half of Oman is Baloch yet they gave up their language and now only speak Arabic, even the older South Asian immigrants from the 19th century and earlier who are part of the Ajami community have assimilated and are Arabized, same is true for the Turkis and the Farsis and Sinis (Chinese) and Chechens etc, they all came in large numbers, live in their own areas but eventually adopted arabic yet modern post-Oil boom migrants from both the West and East don't learn Arabic.

Westerners who live in the Arabian gulf are not usually looking to set down roots there, so that's why they don't need to learn Arabic. I would imagine they get by nicely with English in their fields.

Perhaps with Asians it's the same. They see themselves as temporary workers rather than long term residents.

 

[Thomaskutty]

For the simple reason that all south asians in the middle east live there with work visas. You can't retire and set your roots there for future generations, that's the law of the land. Also, Arabic is not the language of commerce there.

 

[Local.Dada]

Not to offend anyone here but I have a different take on this,

I see religious Muslims usually be it from subcontinent or in countries like Malaysia etc whose first language is obviously not arabic recite verses compiled in Arabic centuries ago at the drop of the hat but not sure if that translates into them being able to have a day to day conversation in Arabic. does it?

Serious question.

 

[sshakir411]

Because there are so many damn desis there

There’s more desis in places like a Dubai, Doha than actual natives

Exactly. As someone who grew up in Saudi I never had to learn it because you can do all necessary things with some broken Arabic.

 

[MenInG]

We are there to earn a living - not learn the language

 

[MenInG]

Not to offend anyone here but I have a different take on this,

I see religious Muslims usually be it from subcontinent or in countries like Malaysia etc whose first language is obviously not arabic recite verses compiled in Arabic centuries ago at the drop of the hat but not sure if that translates into them being able to have a day to day conversation in Arabic. does it?

Serious question.

Quranic Arabic is different from what you speak on the street.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Exactly. As someone who grew up in Saudi I never had to learn it because you can do all necessary things with some broken Arabic.

I second this. Grew up and lived in all major cities of Saudi Arabia (Khobar, Riyadh, Jeddah).

You don't need to learn proper Arabic to converse with locals. Desis born and raised are slightly better in fluency but the main reason no desi kid learns proper Arabic is that most of the good schools don't take Arabic seriously as a proper subject. Hence student interest in learning is also minimal.

 

[King-Misbah]

We are there to earn a living - not learn the language

What about integration? I find it shocking when migrants move to a country and fail to learn the local language. Shouldn't that be your first priority? Surely you will flourish a lot more job wise and have more opportunities if you learn the local language.

 

[Bigboii]

Governments are mostly to blame cause they are not eager to teach if anyone from outside the country came to US we go to public school where you take 2-3 years of ESL or ELL to learn English and in NYC especially on outer boroughs its kinda hard to find white people and mostly people are immigrants but most speak fluent English and mostly coming from areas were English is not taught either

 

[Giannis]

Not to offend anyone here but I have a different take on this,

I see religious Muslims usually be it from subcontinent or in countries like Malaysia etc whose first language is obviously not arabic recite verses compiled in Arabic centuries ago at the drop of the hat but not sure if that translates into them being able to have a day to day conversation in Arabic. does it?

Serious question.

Quranic arabic is totally different. Even modern day Arabs don't completely understand it. It's like expecting someone to understand Old English or Latin from the 7th century.

 

[Giannis]

Exactly. As someone who grew up in Saudi I never had to learn it because you can do all necessary things with some broken Arabic.

We are there to earn a living - not learn the language

I second this. Grew up and lived in all major cities of Saudi Arabia (Khobar, Riyadh, Jeddah).

You don't need to learn proper Arabic to converse with locals. Desis born and raised are slightly better in fluency but the main reason no desi kid learns proper Arabic is that most of the good schools don't take Arabic seriously as a proper subject. Hence student interest in learning is also minimal.

There should still be an interest to learn, it's a fascinating language spoken by over 500 million people around the world and a big part of faith and if you're given the chance to live let alone grow up in an Arab country yet don't bother to learn to speak it then that's a missed oppurtunity cause once you leave then you'll never have such an opportunity.

 

[Giannis]

For the simple reason that all south asians in the middle east live there with work visas. You can't retire and set your roots there for future generations, that's the law of the land. Also, Arabic is not the language of commerce there.

White people go to Japan for work just for a year or two but learn Japanese, they learn mandarin, spanish, persian etc There are European footballers that learn the language of the country they're playing in even if they're only there for a few years. It's a shame, especially on wealthy educated south asians who don't bother to learn Arabic.

 

[LongHorn]

What about integration? I find it shocking when migrants move to a country and fail to learn the local language. Shouldn't that be your first priority? Surely you will flourish a lot more job wise and have more opportunities if you learn the local language.

Depends on the job.
If you are a car mechanic, you will flourish more if you know the broken Arabic, and not proper Arabic

If you are a banker or doctor or chemical engineer, the level to which a non-Arab amateur can grasp Arabic in a year or 2, will not make a major difference to his career

 

[LongHorn]

There is another peculiar situation in Dubai where a large number of the native citizens, particularly those 50+ know Urdu to a decent extent. the reason being 1) Some had gone to India/Pakistan to study in 60s and 70s, 2) Some of them have Hyderabadi mothers, 3) Some pick up from Bollywood movies

And they do not hesitate to use their Urdu in markets, airports, petrol stations etc. Unfortunately they use the rude form (idhar aao, bahar jao)

This is not true in the other Gulf countries

 

[LongHorn]

if you're given the chance to live let alone grow up in an Arab country yet don't bother to learn to speak it then that's a missed oppurtunity cause once you leave then you'll never have such an opportunity.

Ironically, you are wrong. If you are in a place like UAE, there are no decently priced proper places to speak Arabic. There are some expensive courses, but the executives studying hardly learn Arabic beyond basics.
I don't know if the other Gulf countries have decent places to teach Arabic to foreigners.
The Arabic taught in schools is 90% box ticking, with the result that students don't really grasp it

I gained command of Arabic through years of watching television, and not in the 10 years of schooling that I learned Arabic

 

[Giannis]

Ironically, you are wrong. If you are in a place like UAE, there are no decently priced proper places to speak Arabic. There are some expensive courses, but the executives studying hardly learn Arabic beyond basics.
I don't know if the other Gulf countries have decent places to teach Arabic to foreigners.
The Arabic taught in schools is 90% box ticking, with the result that students don't really grasp it

I gained command of Arabic through years of watching television, and not in the 10 years of schooling that I learned Arabic

I mean you should use online resources and books and IMMERSE yourself in the culture, speak with Arabs (not neccesarily Khaleejis).

 

[kamz]

Makes sense but how did the Ajam assimilate so easily. Half of Oman is Baloch yet they gave up their language and now only speak Arabic, even the older South Asian immigrants from the 19th century and earlier who are part of the Ajami community have assimilated and are Arabized, same is true for the Turkis and the Farsis and Sinis (Chinese) and Chechens etc, they all came in large numbers, live in their own areas but eventually adopted arabic yet modern post-Oil boom migrants from both the West and East don't learn Arabic.

and who says baloch are ajam? not that it is bad to be an ajam. One theory is that baloch were arabs who migrated to persia and subcontinent in the early migration waves during the ummayad period. Now its a reverse of that.

But hey these are stories that I hear from the shayba's here in the UAE who hear from their forefathers and they from theirs, dont think a proper detailed DNA research has been conducted about it

 

[kamz]

There is another peculiar situation in Dubai where a large number of the native citizens, particularly those 50+ know Urdu to a decent extent. the reason being 1) Some had gone to India/Pakistan to study in 60s and 70s, 2) Some of them have Hyderabadi mothers, 3) Some pick up from Bollywood movies

And they do not hesitate to use their Urdu in markets, airports, petrol stations etc. Unfortunately they use the rude form (idhar aao, bahar jao)

This is not true in the other Gulf countries

and some were absolute amazing smugglers, who ripped off the brits by smuggling gold from india and pocketing the margins saved from high customs excise

 

[Nostalgic]

and who says baloch are ajam? not that it is bad to be an ajam. One theory is that baloch were arabs who migrated to persia and subcontinent in the early migration waves during the ummayad period. Now its a reverse of that.

But hey these are stories that I hear from the shayba's here in the UAE who hear from their forefathers and they from theirs, dont think a proper detailed DNA research has been conducted about it

What I read was that the Baloch were originally West Asian, related to the Kurds. Many Baloch to this day use the surname Kurd: the politician Changez Kurd and the lawyer Ali Ahmed Kurd have been in the news in the recent years.

The Makranis are of at least partial African origin that have assimilated into the Baloch.

 

[Nostalgic]

This is not to suggest that there couldn’t have been Arab admixture into the existing Baloch due to immigration during the Ummayad period, but Baloch history goes further back than the Ummayad era. At least they claim it does.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I havent lived in the ME but an assessment based on travelling within some gulf countries makes it seem a bit pointless to learn the language.

The interaction with the host population is minimal, south asians greatly outnumber them, English is the business language and they dont offer you any form of citizenship.

It seems pointless to try and 'assimilate ' when the whole region seems to be made up of disparate expat communities who just want to make money.

Compared to someone for instance who has chosen to immigrate to the UK and will constantly interact with English speakers and who's children will have to learn English in schools there seems no reason to learn the language

Additionally, from a personal development POV Quranic arabic is vastly different, Islamic scholarship in Urdu/Persian is perhaps superior, Arabic entertainment is not much that popular and modern literature etc is not existent to non-arab audiences so there is again no incentive.

 

[Yossarian]

I worked in the Middle East, mainly in Saudi, for a few years, many years ago. I didn't learn to speak Arabic despite being able to read, but not understand, Arabic (due to being taught to read the Quran when very young).

Reasons for not learning was very simple. I worked almost exclusively with Westerners, those from countries where English is a language spoken by all the educated, eg the Philippines, and Arabs in senior positions who had been educated in the West. I lived with Westerners in residential compounds that were designated as being for Westerners only. (I'm a UK citizen).
My only interactions with 'average' Arabs was when going shopping or travelling through airports, and there the interactions were in English.

We read English language newspapers, watched English language tv and films (often as soon as they were released in cinemas in the West. Don't ask me how)

Basically, there was no need, even no opportunity I would say, to speak English, whether at home, at work, out shopping, or anywhere else, even when we socialised with Arabs, since they were Western educated anyway and comfortable speaking in English.

 

[Giannis]

What I read was that the Baloch were originally West Asian, related to the Kurds. Many Baloch to this day use the surname Kurd: the politician Changez Kurd and the lawyer Ali Ahmed Kurd have been in the news in the recent years.

The Makranis are of at least partial African origin that have assimilated into the Baloch.

This is not to suggest that there couldn’t have been Arab admixture into the existing Baloch due to immigration during the Ummayad period, but Baloch history goes further back than the Ummayad era. At least they claim it does.

and who says baloch are ajam? not that it is bad to be an ajam. One theory is that baloch were arabs who migrated to persia and subcontinent in the early migration waves during the ummayad period. Now its a reverse of that.

But hey these are stories that I hear from the shayba's here in the UAE who hear from their forefathers and they from theirs, dont think a proper detailed DNA research has been conducted about it

Baloch are a confederation of people like other ethnic groups such as Pashtuns among others so they don't all have a common origin. Various tribes and individuals within the Baloch confederation have different origins, the general theory is that the Baloch originate from Aleppo, Syria where they were ethnic Kurds and descend from the Medes and migrated to present-day Balochistan then called "Gedrosia" in only 1000 AD, so they migrated after the Ummayad caliphate, while in Gedrosia they assimiliated the native people, many among them were Hindus and Jats, you still find Hindu temples in Balochistan and some Baloch tribes have a jat origin, especially the ones near Sindh. The Raja of Kalat was a Hindu before he was deposed. There are also Baloch who claim to have an Arab origin and descend from Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) although there is no evidence, the fact that Balochi is a northwestern Iranic language like Kurdish supports the migration theory from Aleppo. Aside from the Baloch, half of the "baloch" are actually Brahui people who are classed as a Dravidian people and their language sounds very different from any Iranic language although it has obviously been heavily influenced by Balochi but people conviently lump the Baloch and Brahui together and forget that the Brahui have a totally different origin, granted there has been a lot of intermarriage between the two to such a point that they have a common identity. Other than that, some Baloch/Brahui tribes have a Pashtun origin - quite a few tribes were just Balochized and many Baloch tribal chiefs have historically married Afghan women, in fact a lot of the prominent Baloch tribal chiefs have Pashtun mothers, grandmothers and great grandmothers to such an extent that they're almost genetically mostly Pashtun but they obviously make up a minority of the Baloch community.

As for Makranis, Makran is just a region in Balochistan and not a subgroup - it's a region that covers the southwestern part of Pakistnai Balochistan and the entirety of Iranian-Balochistan, anyone inhabiting those areas are known as "Makranis", it has nothing to do with being "partial-African" - while it is true that most of the Afro-Baloch are found in those areas but that is not synonmous with being Makrani. A trademark of the Makran region is that they don't have a tribal system and thus no influence of tribal sardars - a lot of the Baloch that migrated to the Gulf were Makranis and that's why many of them don't have a tribal surname - they usually just go by "Al Balooshi".

 

[kamz]

What I read was that the Baloch were originally West Asian, related to the Kurds. Many Baloch to this day use the surname Kurd: the politician Changez Kurd and the lawyer Ali Ahmed Kurd have been in the news in the recent years.

The Makranis are of at least partial African origin that have assimilated into the Baloch.

as I said its a a story from the old chaps who heard from their forefathers and has been passed down. Akin to something like the pashtuns are one of the lost tribes of israel

Possibly what you read could also be true. Allah hu Aalam what is the absolute truth

PS: We dont use the surname kurd and havent heard of it yet in balooshis.

By the way love the mash up name of 2 warrior tribes, changez and kurd. Is he as fiesty as his name ? Need to look him up

 

[kamz]

Baloch are a confederation of people like other ethnic groups such as Pashtuns among others so they don't all have a common origin. Various tribes and individuals within the Baloch confederation have different origins, the general theory is that the Baloch originate from Aleppo, Syria where they were ethnic Kurds and descend from the Medes and migrated to present-day Balochistan then called "Gedrosia" in only 1000 AD, so they migrated after the Ummayad caliphate, while in Gedrosia they assimiliated the native people, many among them were Hindus and Jats, you still find Hindu temples in Balochistan and some Baloch tribes have a jat origin, especially the ones near Sindh. The Raja of Kalat was a Hindu before he was deposed. There are also Baloch who claim to have an Arab origin and descend from Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) although there is no evidence, the fact that Balochi is a northwestern Iranic language like Kurdish supports the migration theory from Aleppo. Aside from the Baloch, half of the "baloch" are actually Brahui people who are classed as a Dravidian people and their language sounds very different from any Iranic language although it has obviously been heavily influenced by Balochi but people conviently lump the Baloch and Brahui together and forget that the Brahui have a totally different origin, granted there has been a lot of intermarriage between the two to such a point that they have a common identity. Other than that, some Baloch/Brahui tribes have a Pashtun origin - quite a few tribes were just Balochized and many Baloch tribal chiefs have historically married Afghan women, in fact a lot of the prominent Baloch tribal chiefs have Pashtun mothers, grandmothers and great grandmothers to such an extent that they're almost genetically mostly Pashtun but they obviously make up a minority of the Baloch community.

As for Makranis, Makran is just a region in Balochistan and not a subgroup - it's a region that covers the southwestern part of Pakistnai Balochistan and the entirety of Iranian-Balochistan, anyone inhabiting those areas are known as "Makranis", it has nothing to do with being "partial-African" - while it is true that most of the Afro-Baloch are found in those areas but that is not synonmous with being Makrani. A trademark of the Makran region is that they don't have a tribal system and thus no influence of tribal sardars - a lot of the Baloch that migrated to the Gulf were Makranis and that's why many of them don't have a tribal surname - they usually just go by "Al Balooshi".

can categorically say not true!. The majority of the balooshis have their shajara (fathers name, profession, place they lived atleast 8 generations = on an average thats atleast 500 years if average age is 60) traced back to many other tribes like Al naim, al janahi, all desert tribes

Some maybe makran possibly not denying. But majority not

 

[kamz]

This is not to suggest that there couldn’t have been Arab admixture into the existing Baloch due to immigration during the Ummayad period, but Baloch history goes further back than the Ummayad era. At least they claim it does.

Quite right it does pre date beyond the ummayad period.

old man tells stories that they were even in ibn shaddad's lost poetry which is pre islamic arab history. Though that is a claim neither refuted nor accepted. So just a claim

 

[kamz]

Baloch are a confederation of people like other ethnic groups such as Pashtuns among others so they don't all have a common origin. Various tribes and individuals within the Baloch confederation have different origins, the general theory is that the Baloch originate from Aleppo, Syria where they were ethnic Kurds and descend from the Medes and migrated to present-day Balochistan then called "Gedrosia" in only 1000 AD, so they migrated after the Ummayad caliphate, while in Gedrosia they assimiliated the native people, many among them were Hindus and Jats, you still find Hindu temples in Balochistan and some Baloch tribes have a jat origin, especially the ones near Sindh. The Raja of Kalat was a Hindu before he was deposed. There are also Baloch who claim to have an Arab origin and descend from Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) although there is no evidence, the fact that Balochi is a northwestern Iranic language like Kurdish supports the migration theory from Aleppo. Aside from the Baloch, half of the "baloch" are actually Brahui people who are classed as a Dravidian people and their language sounds very different from any Iranic language although it has obviously been heavily influenced by Balochi but people conviently lump the Baloch and Brahui together and forget that the Brahui have a totally different origin, granted there has been a lot of intermarriage between the two to such a point that they have a common identity. Other than that, some Baloch/Brahui tribes have a Pashtun origin - quite a few tribes were just Balochized and many Baloch tribal chiefs have historically married Afghan women, in fact a lot of the prominent Baloch tribal chiefs have Pashtun mothers, grandmothers and great grandmothers to such an extent that they're almost genetically mostly Pashtun but they obviously make up a minority of the Baloch community.

As for Makranis, Makran is just a region in Balochistan and not a subgroup - it's a region that covers the southwestern part of Pakistnai Balochistan and the entirety of Iranian-Balochistan, anyone inhabiting those areas are known as "Makranis", it has nothing to do with being "partial-African" - while it is true that most of the Afro-Baloch are found in those areas but that is not synonmous with being Makrani. A trademark of the Makran region is that they don't have a tribal system and thus no influence of tribal sardars - a lot of the Baloch that migrated to the Gulf were Makranis and that's why many of them don't have a tribal surname - they usually just go by "Al Balooshi".

by the way the rest of the post is very informative. Some interesting points about the marriage and assimiliation into afghans

 

[Nostalgic]

as I said its a a story from the old chaps who heard from their forefathers and has been passed down. Akin to something like the pashtuns are one of the lost tribes of israel

Possibly what you read could also be true. Allah hu Aalam what is the absolute truth

PS: We dont use the surname kurd and havent heard of it yet in balooshis.

By the way love the mash up name of 2 warrior tribes, changez and kurd. Is he as fiesty as his name ? Need to look him up

Fascinating, I didn’t know you were Balooshi. Are you in Oman? I used to live in Qatar, where my father taught at a pan-GCC college, so he had several Omani students, some of them Balooshi. We used to look forward to their Eid gifts: little decorative glazed cups of halwa. I knew a couple of Balooshis at college in the US too.

One question I’ve always had but never got around to asking: are most Balooshi Ibadi like the Omani Arabs?

The Kurd surname isn’t all that common, but it does exist among the Baloch in Pakistan.

 

[Nostalgic]

Baloch are a confederation of people like other ethnic groups such as Pashtuns among others so they don't all have a common origin. Various tribes and individuals within the Baloch confederation have different origins, the general theory is that the Baloch originate from Aleppo, Syria where they were ethnic Kurds and descend from the Medes and migrated to present-day Balochistan then called "Gedrosia" in only 1000 AD, so they migrated after the Ummayad caliphate, while in Gedrosia they assimiliated the native people, many among them were Hindus and Jats, you still find Hindu temples in Balochistan and some Baloch tribes have a jat origin, especially the ones near Sindh. The Raja of Kalat was a Hindu before he was deposed. There are also Baloch who claim to have an Arab origin and descend from Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) although there is no evidence, the fact that Balochi is a northwestern Iranic language like Kurdish supports the migration theory from Aleppo. Aside from the Baloch, half of the "baloch" are actually Brahui people who are classed as a Dravidian people and their language sounds very different from any Iranic language although it has obviously been heavily influenced by Balochi but people conviently lump the Baloch and Brahui together and forget that the Brahui have a totally different origin, granted there has been a lot of intermarriage between the two to such a point that they have a common identity. Other than that, some Baloch/Brahui tribes have a Pashtun origin - quite a few tribes were just Balochized and many Baloch tribal chiefs have historically married Afghan women, in fact a lot of the prominent Baloch tribal chiefs have Pashtun mothers, grandmothers and great grandmothers to such an extent that they're almost genetically mostly Pashtun but they obviously make up a minority of the Baloch community.

As for Makranis, Makran is just a region in Balochistan and not a subgroup - it's a region that covers the southwestern part of Pakistnai Balochistan and the entirety of Iranian-Balochistan, anyone inhabiting those areas are known as "Makranis", it has nothing to do with being "partial-African" - while it is true that most of the Afro-Baloch are found in those areas but that is not synonmous with being Makrani. A trademark of the Makran region is that they don't have a tribal system and thus no influence of tribal sardars - a lot of the Baloch that migrated to the Gulf were Makranis and that's why many of them don't have a tribal surname - they usually just go by "Al Balooshi".

Thanks, very informative post!

On Baloch-Pashtun marriages, it works the other way round too. Two friends from undergrad who were Pashtuns from Quetta had Baloch mothers. One even said his mother was a “Durrani Baloch.” This was news to me, that the royal house of the Pashtuns had a Baloch branch.

 

[Nostalgic]

I’m going off on a tangent here, but it’s interesting how much is made of the Baloch-Pashtun-Hazara dynamic in Balochistan, Quetta in particular, and one mostly reads about their mutual hostility and animosity. Reality is obviously more nuanced, what with these intermarriages and them all sharing a space and therefore inevitably cross-pollinating their various cultures.

 

[Nostalgic]

By the way [MENTION=6728]kamz[/MENTION], have you ever been to Bahla? It’s high on my list of places I want to visit.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Not to offend anyone here but I have a different take on this,

I see religious Muslims usually be it from subcontinent or in countries like Malaysia etc whose first language is obviously not arabic recite verses compiled in Arabic centuries ago at the drop of the hat but not sure if that translates into them being able to have a day to day conversation in Arabic. does it?

Serious question.

No that does not give them the ability to speak Arabic. Same ways Hindus from the subcontinent, or Bali, or wherever whose first language is obviously not Sanskrit can recite verses complied thousands of years ago from Sanskrit but they cant speak the language.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

The main reason why they dont learn Arabic is because English is the lingua franca there. So there is no need. However some do learn Arabic.

 

[MenInG]

There should still be an interest to learn, it's a fascinating language spoken by over 500 million people around the world and a big part of faith and if you're given the chance to live let alone grow up in an Arab country yet don't bother to learn to speak it then that's a missed oppurtunity cause once you leave then you'll never have such an opportunity.

I agree - but its about practicalities as well.

 

[Giannis]

No that does not give them the ability to speak Arabic. Same ways Hindus from the subcontinent, or Bali, or wherever whose first language is obviously not Sanskrit can recite verses complied thousands of years ago from Sanskrit but they cant speak the language.

It's the same thing with Non-Israeli Jews, most can read the Talmud in Hebrew but don't speak a word or understand what they're reading lol.

 

[kamz]

Fascinating, I didn’t know you were Balooshi. Are you in Oman? I used to live in Qatar, where my father taught at a pan-GCC college, so he had several Omani students, some of them Balooshi. We used to look forward to their Eid gifts: little decorative glazed cups of halwa. I knew a couple of Balooshis at college in the US too.

One question I’ve always had but never got around to asking: are most Balooshi Ibadi like the Omani Arabs?

The Kurd surname isn’t all that common, but it does exist among the Baloch in Pakistan.

we live in a world where interaction is mostly on the internet and by connecting nowadays means numbers on linkedin . How would anyone know anyone? Post corona it will get even further. Social physical distancing is now. but real distancing has happened long back haha You are old school, you'll understand

most omanis are ibadis, but the blooshis in saudi, UAE, Kuwait and yemen arent. The interesting bit is what my old man said that majority of the blooshis were part of the khwarij movement at the time and ibadis are a milder version of the khaarijites (khaarijis not in the sense of outsiders of community but doctrine of religion)

And even funnier majority of blooshis in UAE are the softest of sunnis. If you will ever find poems of ibn arabi or bu hamdani or rumi, he is more likely to be a blooshi tribe, so when and where that conversion happened of mainstream sunnism, god knows. If you ever find out let me know

 

[kamz]

Fascinating, I didn’t know you were Balooshi. Are you in Oman? I used to live in Qatar, where my father taught at a pan-GCC college, so he had several Omani students, some of them Balooshi. We used to look forward to their Eid gifts: little decorative glazed cups of halwa. I knew a couple of Balooshis at college in the US too.

One question I’ve always had but never got around to asking: are most Balooshi Ibadi like the Omani Arabs?

The Kurd surname isn’t all that common, but it does exist among the Baloch in Pakistan.

what halwa was it ? the usual jazar? now thats tasty

If you are here in the neck of woods, then I shall introduce you to lugaimaat dipped in honey. For me that is heaven

Disappointed though that there were a couple blooshis in the US with you at college? Till now I was under the illusion hahaha I had been the anomaly or perhaps I was made to believe by the reception I recieved at airport post graduation.

Flip even now 17 years later, when applying for a movement permit, passing remarks are made which roughly translates into MashAllah ofcourse you are a university graduate, know how to use applications and computers we fear you have changed hahaha

 

[kamz]

By the way [MENTION=6728]kamz[/MENTION], have you ever been to Bahla? It’s high on my list of places I want to visit.

I have and if it is high on yur list add Sayt, Wadi Banu awf and samail too

I am sure jabal al akhdar and the rest of the famous places will already be in your list

Pick the khareef season (monsoon - June August) to visit so you can enjoy salalah too

 

[kamz]

I agree - but its about practicalities as well.

practicality aisi hogayeen ke baddu urdu aur punjabi seekh gaye haha

 

[kamz]

I mean you should use online resources and books and IMMERSE yourself in the culture, speak with Arabs (not neccesarily Khaleejis).

Though I would be hated for saying this given the usual love majority of people here have for khaleejis.

If one lives in an arab world, one should learn arabic, if present for limited time, drop every other and learn the khaleeji dialect (before anyone points out ofcourse I have paraphrased John Ruskin on oxford and cambridge haha)

The reason I say is that khaleeji arabic is the closest (not in words necessarily, but more in terms of culture and traditions)

If you ask a lebanese, egyptian, syrian, who they are, they will say lebanaani, masri, soori, they wont say im an arab

Even they dont recognise themselves as arabs (majority of my experience)

 

[kamz]

Fascinating, I didn’t know you were Balooshi. Are you in Oman? I used to live in Qatar, where my father taught at a pan-GCC college, so he had several Omani students, some of them Balooshi. We used to look forward to their Eid gifts: little decorative glazed cups of halwa. I knew a couple of Balooshis at college in the US too.

One question I’ve always had but never got around to asking: are most Balooshi Ibadi like the Omani Arabs?

The Kurd surname isn’t all that common, but it does exist among the Baloch in Pakistan.

and no not in oman in UAE (somehow missed this earlier)

 

[kamz]

Ironically, you are wrong. If you are in a place like UAE, there are no decently priced proper places to speak Arabic. There are some expensive courses, but the executives studying hardly learn Arabic beyond basics.
I don't know if the other Gulf countries have decent places to teach Arabic to foreigners.
The Arabic taught in schools is 90% box ticking, with the result that students don't really grasp it

I gained command of Arabic through years of watching television, and not in the 10 years of schooling that I learned Arabic

hahaha, or in addition you go to a government school and along with the language you also learn how to do many other things (burning down the school, breaking stuff up, hiding behind the walls and pelting stones on the cars passing by )

 

[kamz]

There should still be an interest to learn, it's a fascinating language spoken by over 500 million people around the world and a big part of faith and if you're given the chance to live let alone grow up in an Arab country yet don't bother to learn to speak it then that's a missed oppurtunity cause once you leave then you'll never have such an opportunity.

indeed it is serenely fascinating and beautiful. One cannot describe the beauty of it or rather articulate the eloquence the arabic language posseses in english due to the latter's limited expressional vocabulary.

It is like the italians have their sculptures, the english their theatres and play, some have music, the dutch their art. All having a way to express the beauty of their culture

In the arab world there was nothing but vast barren desert, so all of the culture, the art is seeped and cultivated in the language.

If it interests you, you should read up nabati poetry and nathr (it is a distinctive way of poetry, different to the rest of arab prose).

 

[Nostalgic]

we live in a world where interaction is mostly on the internet and by connecting nowadays means numbers on linkedin . How would anyone know anyone? Post corona it will get even further. Social physical distancing is now. but real distancing has happened long back haha You are old school, you'll understand

most omanis are ibadis, but the blooshis in saudi, UAE, Kuwait and yemen arent. The interesting bit is what my old man said that majority of the blooshis were part of the khwarij movement at the time and ibadis are a milder version of the khaarijites (khaarijis not in the sense of outsiders of community but doctrine of religion)

And even funnier majority of blooshis in UAE are the softest of sunnis. If you will ever find poems of ibn arabi or bu hamdani or rumi, he is more likely to be a blooshi tribe, so when and where that conversion happened of mainstream sunnism, god knows. If you ever find out let me know

what halwa was it ? the usual jazar? now thats tasty

If you are here in the neck of woods, then I shall introduce you to lugaimaat dipped in honey. For me that is heaven

Disappointed though that there were a couple blooshis in the US with you at college? Till now I was under the illusion hahaha I had been the anomaly or perhaps I was made to believe by the reception I recieved at airport post graduation.

Flip even now 17 years later, when applying for a movement permit, passing remarks are made which roughly translates into MashAllah ofcourse you are a university graduate, know how to use applications and computers we fear you have changed hahaha

and no not in oman in UAE (somehow missed this earlier)

Thanks for the detailed replies. I don’t know the names of the halwas, but they were all delicious, encrusted with nuts. The first time we got them, one from each student, we consumed the halwas and diligently washed the cups to return, only to find out that they were ours to keep. So we placed them on a window sill as decoration. After several years, we had quite a collection. I forget if they made the journey back to Pakistan with us or if my parents gave them away when we left.

The Balooshis i knew in college were on some sort of Omani government scholarship. I remember one of them consulting me about grad school (he was undergrad, I was grad), saying how he could either attend grad school by extending the scholarship or return to Oman as was required by the terms of the deal. I’ll have to check on LinkedIn about what he ended up doing.

I have to confess I wasn’t aware of Balooshis outside Oman in the other GCC countries. I don’t know if you’ve interacted with [MENTION=146530]DeadBall[/MENTION]. Haven’t seen him post in a while.

 

[kamz]

Thanks for the detailed replies. I don’t know the names of the halwas, but they were all delicious, encrusted with nuts. The first time we got them, one from each student, we consumed the halwas and diligently washed the cups to return, only to find out that they were ours to keep. So we placed them on a window sill as decoration. After several years, we had quite a collection. I forget if they made the journey back to Pakistan with us or if my parents gave them away when we left.

The Balooshis i knew in college were on some sort of Omani government scholarship. I remember one of them consulting me about grad school (he was undergrad, I was grad), saying how he could either attend grad school by extending the scholarship or return to Oman as was required by the terms of the deal. I’ll have to check on LinkedIn about what he ended up doing.

I have to confess I wasn’t aware of Balooshis outside Oman in the other GCC countries. I don’t know if you’ve interacted with [MENTION=146530]DeadBall[/MENTION]. Haven’t seen him post in a while.

I hope he is safe in germany. interacted a lot with deadball.

 

[Nostalgic]

I have and if it is high on yur list add Sayt, Wadi Banu awf and samail too

I am sure jabal al akhdar and the rest of the famous places will already be in your list

Pick the khareef season (monsoon - June August) to visit so you can enjoy salalah too

Are these other places haunted like Bahla is?

Salalah I’ve already been to, back in 1995.

 

[MenInG]

Guys back to the topic of this thread please.

 

[Nostalgic]

I spent my childhood in Qatar, back when there were two TV channels, with the English one starting transmission at 3 PM. Before 3 PM, we had to make do with the Arabic one, and we learnt to understand quite a bit of the language through this enforced immersion. Then there were things such as dual-language street signs and billboards and shop names, which meant we built up a decent enough vocabulary. All this meant we had somewhat of a vocabulary, somewhat of a proficiency understanding the gist of what was said, but very little ability to actually speak it. Looking back, I now realize that limited skills like these, such as they are, are also incredibly easy to lose once you’re no longer in that environment.

 

[faraz39]

indeed it is serenely fascinating and beautiful. One cannot describe the beauty of it or rather articulate the eloquence the arabic language posseses in english due to the latter's limited expressional vocabulary.

It is like the italians have their sculptures, the english their theatres and play, some have music, the dutch their art. All having a way to express the beauty of their culture

In the arab world there was nothing but vast barren desert, so all of the culture, the art is seeped and cultivated in the language.

If it interests you, you should read up nabati poetry and nathr (it is a distinctive way of poetry, different to the rest of arab prose).

Spent time in Egypt learning fusha from scholars but till now Arabic poetry is a challenge. I can read the classical books of Islamic literature and not be lost but for whatever reason I just can't get over the poetry hump.

 

[kamz]

Are these other places haunted like Bahla is?

Salalah I’ve already been to, back in 1995.

depends what haunts you mate? sometimes one can get haunted by their own past and sometimes they end up marrying their haunts.

nope not as haunted as bahla, but still historical. You have been to salalah, assuming you'd have visited khor rori then

 

[kamz]

Spent time in Egypt learning fusha from scholars but till now Arabic poetry is a challenge. I can read the classical books of Islamic literature and not be lost but for whatever reason I just can't get over the poetry hump.

I understand that feeling. Reminds me of school days, the teacher telling us all about abyaat and sadr and ajz. We as students were like not interested in the sadr and ajz of a poetry, but a woman bring it on haha

I think it depends also on the teacher. Some teachers dive right in qasayid, some start off slow and steady with maqtooa and natfa

the fun or rather the fascinating bit comes when you start deconstructing the poetry as arabic poetry can be written in 2columns (sadr and ajz - front and back part of the poem) or rather one. Then trying to connect with the poet's feelings or understanding why he chose one over the other or use a different word to another in the bayt of his poem

Usually a bit of background on the poet, the surroundings, circumstances, situation helps in understanding the qasayid and maqtooa

I'd suggest perhaps starting with some of the modern poets (nizar qabbani) who are much easier to grasp than the likes of ibn arabi, mutannabi, ibn shaddad, bu firas hamdani etc.

Plus nizar's poems if you can translate into english, will be an absolute hit with the ladies (@nostalgic take note) tabahi pehlado amreeka mein hahaha.

Though if you really want to be fascinated by strong arabic poetry, where feelings, emotions and wisdom simultaneously run sky high, have a look at Imrul Kayes work (not to be confused with the bangladeshi batsmen haha) Antarah ibn shaddad (who's poems used to be hung inside the kaaba before the time of the prophet SAW) and ibn salt

 

[kamz]

I spent my childhood in Qatar, back when there were two TV channels, with the English one starting transmission at 3 PM. Before 3 PM, we had to make do with the Arabic one, and we learnt to understand quite a bit of the language through this enforced immersion. Then there were things such as dual-language street signs and billboards and shop names, which meant we built up a decent enough vocabulary. All this meant we had somewhat of a vocabulary, somewhat of a proficiency understanding the gist of what was said, but very little ability to actually speak it. Looking back, I now realize that limited skills like these, such as they are, are also incredibly easy to lose once you’re no longer in that environment.

hahaha then you know exactly if i say these words
grandizer
captain majid (who's football kick would start on monday and end up in the back of the net on thursday after 4 episodes hahaha)