Why do you think Pakistan is heading in the wrong direction?

[MenInG]

We all have our views on what is wrong with the country and why it is heading in the wrong direction but exactly what is the issue?

Discuss.

 

[Kashmirilion]

This will be another slanging conversation back and forth we have many threads already with same POVs. No one talks about the positive and things we can do instead to improve the country it's all about political point scoring against one another.

 

[syed abbas]

There are various reasons,but the root cause of crisis in Pakistan is mixing politics with religion.Religious parties want a political system according to Islamic principles.However,these parties parties do not agree upon what exactly constitute these Islamic principles due to differences.Hence,mixture of religion and politics gave rise to sectarianism and religious extremism in Pakistan.The recent TLP saga shows the dangers of religious extremism.How can the government ensure smooth implementation of CPEC and attract foreign investment when such violent protests are happening in the country? Excessive religiosity has not even spared the education system:Hindus,who are a minority in Pakistan,are degraded in textbooks.While textbooks in developed countries are teaching students to use and invent Artificial Intelligence,our textbooks are teaching that Newton also used to wear dupatta!!!

 

[MenInG]

There are various reasons,but the root cause of crisis in Pakistan is mixing politics with religion.Religious parties want a political system according to Islamic principles.However,these parties parties do not agree upon what exactly constitute these Islamic principles due to differences.Hence,mixture of religion and politics gave rise to sectarianism and religious extremism in Pakistan.The recent TLP saga shows the dangers of religious extremism.How can the government ensure smooth implementation of CPEC and attract foreign investment when such violent protests are happening in the country? Excessive religiosity has not even spared the education system:Hindus,who are a minority in Pakistan,are degraded in textbooks.While textbooks in developed countries are teaching students to use and invent Artificial Intelligence,our textbooks are teaching that Newton also used to wear dupatta!!!

This has been the case for a while - or has it become worse recently?

 

[syed abbas]

This has been the case for a while - or has it become worse recently?

It has deteriorated recently,but the worst is yet to come.

 

[Tubs]

Lack of education, over prevalence of religion in government, and poverty. These lead to misogyny, anti-scientific views, being more taken into conspiracy, negative views of minorities (to put it lightly), and an overall backwards culture being developed amongst those who are below middle class.

 

[Buffet]

We all have our views on what is wrong with the country and why it is heading in the wrong direction but exactly what is the issue?

Discuss.

You forgot to list elephant in the room. In my opinion, there is no bigger reason.

I have no doubt that the country will eventually come out ahead despite huge drag, but the headwind has been a big one and there is no sign of headwind disappearing immediately.

 

[Bigboii]

People won't agree with me but I believe it's going in the right direction

To get that process going quickly bring stability in economic policies

There should be a charter of economy signed between the major stakeholders of the country ie big 3 and the army

Discuss the broad economic policies of the country and where you want the country to go and stick to it despite changes in the administration

We hardly change constitutions of the country and this charter should be treated as such

In an ideal world army should just exclusively stick to the job of the army man and hopefully years of consistent Democracy will help us with that

 

[guna]

I am surprised that over religiosity was not offered as a choice in the poll.

 

[Stewie]

This has been the case for a while - or has it become worse recently?

9/11 and the subsequent war on terror has made it worse. I think more people in Pakistan are radicalized because of the innocents killed in Afghanistan , Iraq, Syria, etc. Pakistanis tend to put muslims first Pakistan second, unlike other nations. In the process we end up limiting our own progress.

Overall, I think there is a lot of positives for us but there are also some negatives which we dont like to admit and work on.

 

[Bi_Jamalo]

Army rule, nepotism and no meritocracy.

 

[Gayle_Force]

Tbh the more I think about the more I realize that even after 70 years the country is still trying to figure out what it’s national identity/ideology should be.

There always seems an internal conflict regarding whether the country should move towards moderation or go the other extreme and become almost a theocracy.

The country’s current situation pretty much requires a move towards moderation. However, I feel the extreme religious forces are holding the country hostage and keeping it from making progress.

 

[Cosmic]

Perhaps Perhaps Perhaps. As Mamoon says..
IDENTITY CRISIS ?
any one ?

 

[Stewie]

Tbh the more I think about the more I realize that even after 70 years the country is still trying to figure out what it’s national identity/ideology should be.

There always seems an internal conflict regarding whether the country should move towards moderation or go the other extreme and become almost a theocracy.

The country’s current situation pretty much requires a move towards moderation. However, I feel the extreme religious forces are holding the country hostage and keeping it from making progress.

It’s pretty sad that most of us think that way. The fact is what we were done and well on our way till the 70s. Then somewhere with Bhutto and Zia, we lost our way and the religious zealots took over and they have completely brainwashed our people. We don’t even remember who we were and supposed to be. They have distorted the fact that the country was founded for Muslims to live freely and not for the country to become an Islamic theocracy... this is a big fallacy that the religiopolitical parties have shoved down our throats during and after Zia. We were never meant to be a version of Saudi Arabia or talibanized Afghanistan.

We were supposed to forge our own way, living with a national identity that came first, where the white stripe in the flag is as important as the green, the crescent and the star. We seem to have forgotten all about it.

 

[Bigboii]

Tbh the more I think about the more I realize that even after 70 years the country is still trying to figure out what it’s national identity/ideology should be.

There always seems an internal conflict regarding whether the country should move towards moderation or go the other extreme and become almost a theocracy.

The country’s current situation pretty much requires a move towards moderation. However, I feel the extreme religious forces are holding the country hostage and keeping it from making progress.

Yep this! But I wouldn't call it 70 year long problem

This problem started creeping in the mid to late 70s

 

[Bigboii]

It’s pretty sad that most of us think that way. The fact is what we were done and well on our way till the 70s. Then somewhere with Bhutto and Zia, we lost our way and the religious zealots took over and they have completely brainwashed our people. We don’t even remember who we were and supposed to be. They have distorted the fact that the country was founded for Muslims to live freely and not for the country to become an Islamic theocracy... this is a big fallacy that the religiopolitical parties have shoved down our throats during and after Zia. We were never meant to be a version of Saudi Arabia or talibanized Afghanistan.

We were supposed to forge our own way, living with a national identity that came first, where the white stripe in the flag is as important as the green, the crescent and the star. We seem to have forgotten all about it.

The funny thing is all of this correlates with the GDP growth too

Pak was booming during those times (when neo liberalism wasn't a popular thing and growth of devoloping countries wasn't as quick as it is rn) and if the trend had continued we should have been in at least Malaysia level in late 90s early 2000s

The weird part is that even ind-pak conflicts didn't interfere with the growth as in 1965 Pak grew at more than 10%(and that kind of growth wasn't uncommon infact it was the expeted growth during those years for Pakistan)

So yes even the data proves it that we lost our way to the top spot during those years

 

[Gayle_Force]

Yep this! But I wouldn't call it 70 year long problem

This problem started creeping in the mid to late 70s

Yes I agree this wasn’t as much a problem during the initial few decades. However, the country truly lost its direction and never really got it back.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Tbh the more I think about the more I realize that even after 70 years the country is still trying to figure out what it’s national identity/ideology should be.

There always seems an internal conflict regarding whether the country should move towards moderation or go the other extreme and become almost a theocracy.

Not really. Pakistanis dont really vote for the religious parties in Punjab and Sindh, where 80% of the population live. Only in KPK and Balochistan do they win.

The country’s current situation pretty much requires a move towards moderation. However, I feel the extreme religious forces are holding the country hostage and keeping it from making progress.

Only because they know the government will cave, helped by whoever the opposition is, as they are looking to score political points.

The caving started in the 70's when Bhutto banned alcohol to Muslims, closed night clubs, declared Ahmadis non Muslims. And it has continued since then.

However the Mullahs come from the same society as the rest of Pakistan. In Pakistan when you want something you take to the streets and try to force the government to cave. Politicians are scared that the army with the opposition can topple them so they usually cave.

 

[Gayle_Force]

Not really. Pakistanis dont really vote for the religious parties in Punjab and Sindh, where 80% of the population live. Only in KPK and Balochistan do they win.

Don’t want to derail the thread but just for reference TLP was the third largest party by number of votes in Punjab in last general elections and did better than PPP.

TLP and MMA received a sizeable amount of votes in Sindh as well.

Source: https://www.ecp.gov.pk/frmVotebank.aspx

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Don’t want to derail the thread but just for reference TLP was the third largest party by number of votes in Punjab in last general elections and did better than PPP.

TLP and MMA received a sizeable amount of votes in Sindh as well.

Source: https://www.ecp.gov.pk/frmVotebank.aspx

Percentage wise the support is minuscule in Punjab and Sindh. If more than 90% of the people are not voting for the religious parties in Punjab and Sindh, its clear that the majority dont want them.

And ultimately its a good thing that they are taking votes away from the main stream parties, as this way the mainstream parties dont depend on their vote bank.

 

[Gayle_Force]

Percentage wise the support is minuscule in Punjab and Sindh. If more than 90% of the people are not voting for the religious parties in Punjab and Sindh, its clear that the majority dont want them.

And ultimately its a good thing that they are taking votes away from the main stream parties, as this way the mainstream parties dont depend on their vote bank.

It’s a sizeable vote bank for a party that was made overnight. Also, we would be lying to ourselves if we say that mainstream parties particularly PMLN and PTI don’t cater to religious factions in order to keep their vote bank. Even PPP a supposed left wing party couldn’t raise much of a voice for Salman Taseer because they know they would get backlash.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Dont think the country is heading in the wrong direction. However the two biggest problems facing the country is lack of government stability, and too much government.

Capitalism and not socialism is the way to prosperity. The state should not be running state run enterprises like Steel Mill, and PIA, etc. Pakistan needs to remove regulations, create a business friendly environment, and have lower corporate tax. For education the government should give poor families a voucher that they can use to attend a private school. We need as little government as possible.

Also for 70 years Pakistan has went back and forth between Democracy and Army dictatorship. As an institution the Army believes that they can run the country better than civilians, and they have constantly meddled even when not in power. Imran Khan wisely decided the only way to keep them out was to bring them in.

By having the National Security Council running regularly, the Army can express their opinions there, and this way the government will know what the Army will be willing to accept and what they wont. By sharing power with the Army Imran Khan has more control over them than PPP and PML N, who had zero influence on the generals.

 

[Mamoon]

Only one reason: military hegemony.

It is the source of all problems in Pakistan, including religious extremism.

Quaid-e-Azam dying only 1 year after Pakistan’s formation and before the establishment of the constitution is the greatest tragedy that could have happened to this country.

It set Pakistan in the wrong direction and everything that has happened over the next 70+ years.

 

[Bigboii]

Only one reason: military hegemony.

It is the source of all problems in Pakistan, including religious extremism.

Quaid-e-Azam dying only 1 year after Pakistan’s formation and before the establishment of the constitution is the greatest tragedy that could have happened to this country.

It set Pakistan in the wrong direction and everything that has happened over the next 70+ years.

Yeah that is the root cause but I don't see that changing anytime soon...

 

[Stewie]

Religious political parties are never in power but we would be remiss to realize they do mobilize to shift the balance and control the narrative through emotional blackmailing. They are a weapon used to destabilize the established order or to destabilize pakistan generally. Our nation is a puppet in the hands of outside forces and external factors.. USA, Saudi Arabia, even Iran.. maybe.. China. It’s ridiculous!

 

[Gayle_Force]

Only one reason: military hegemony.

It is the source of all problems in Pakistan, including religious extremism.

Quaid-e-Azam dying only 1 year after Pakistan’s formation and before the establishment of the constitution is the greatest tragedy that could have happened to this country.

It set Pakistan in the wrong direction and everything that has happened over the next 70+ years.

Partially agree but military power would not be possible without the consent and involvement of the other pillars of democracy, which have been equally complicit in facilitating military takeover.

The recent PDM fiasco is a classic example of political parties pretty much getting together to force military into a political discussion just to obtain personal reprieve.

 

[saeedhk]

Pakistan is heading in the wrong direction and there is no doubt about it. There are three main issues: extremism, lack of education and overpopulation.

Extremism has seeped into every segment of the country. There is widespread violence against minority community members and zero religious freedom. People are very narrow-minded and they hold extreme views and are easily pushed into committing violent acts. The lightning rise of the TLP is a testament that radicalisation is on the rise which is reflected in the increase in attacks against minorities. Just a week back, two Christian nurses were attacked by a mob over blasphemy allegation after they removed a sticker that had an religious text on it. They have since been charged with blasphemy and they are languishing in jail. Not to mention that two months back, a Christian man was attacked in Lahore park for reading the bible. These sort of attacks against minority members have become the weekly norm which is the reason why Pakistan was blacklisted recently over its minority rights record. The slogan that resonates with the majority if the dwellers on this country is : Gustakh ki aik saza, sar tun say juda, sar tan say juda. There are videos on social media where kids as young as five are seen chanting this extremist slogan.

Another major issue is a lack of education. There are 25 million out-of-school children - the highest in the world. With a literacy rate of only 58%, the people of Pakistan are easily exploited and brainwashed into accepting and endorsing extreme thought.

The last major issue is overpopulation which is the root cause of all social and economic problems.

With a population growth rate of 2.1% and with the second highest fertility rate of 3.6 in Asia, Pakistan’s population is adding 4 million -the population of New Zealand - to its population annually. This puts a gigantic strain on the country’s resources. Pakistan’s massive population is the sole reason for illiteracy, poverty, crime, unemployment and lack of health infrastructure. The problem of overpopulation is further worsened because Pakistanis have strong religious beliefs against family planning and contraceptives and clerics routinely preach against limiting number of children. Take Tariq Masood, a deobandi cleric, he regularly tells his followers to have 4 wives and at least 16 children. Till we manage to control our population, we cannot make any progress towards prosperity.

 

[KB]

Tbh the more I think about the more I realize that even after 70 years the country is still trying to figure out what it’s national identity/ideology should be.

There always seems an internal conflict regarding whether the country should move towards moderation or go the other extreme and become almost a theocracy.

The country’s current situation pretty much requires a move towards moderation. However, I feel the extreme religious forces are holding the country hostage and keeping it from making progress.

This is an interesting view and is one that others have also put forward. Farzana Shaikh, for example, wrote a whole book - Making Sense of Pakistan - that argued that Pakistan’s identity crisis is the root cause of its problems. While such arguments may usefully bring to attention the ideological dimension, I think it is in need of some development and revision.

The first point to remember is that when seen through the ‘moving film’ as opposed to taking a ‘snapshot’ view, it could be argued that the nature of the Pakistani identity has evolved and is stronger now than it was at the inception of the state. It is important to remember that the very name of the country was new being first mentioned only in 1932. It was only pursued as a serious political goal after 1940. It found traction at the popular level in the areas that make up land today, very late in the colonial day -in the Punjab only two or so years before partition. The people that formed Pakistan at the outset had little history of working together politically. Adherence to the new state therefore had shallow foundations. The Pakistan idea, also, did not rest on blood and soil type of nationalism but was more abstract or conceptual. As Liaquat Ali Khan said in 1945: “the principle of territorial nationalism is opposed to the Muslim view of nationalism which is based on philosophy of society and outlook on life rather than allegiance to a piece of territory.”

In comparison, now, while Pakistanis are cognisant of the manifold problems that afflict the nation, there is an underlying pride and identification with the country, with the territory. There is now a shared history - however imperfect - of working together. It could be argued that adherence to the nation-state is greater today than it was in 1947.

The second point to make is to question an underlying assumption: that a contested national identity is a problem. In fact it is not inherently a problem. Many nations have contested national stories. The very process of contestation can in fact a good thing, if unaccompanied by violence, as there can never be one simple and correct answer as to what national identity should ultimately rest on and what parts of history in the national story should be emphasised. The sense that “all history is present history” influences how the past is remembered in a particular period and means that senses of identity never remain static. Contestation is inevitable and can be a good thing.

The problem in Pakistan is the nature of the contestation which leads in some quarters to violence or threat of violence as well as intolerance which frequently leads to appalling treatment of its minorities. I don’t want to suggest that all of Pakistan’s problems can be reduced to just the battle of ideas. There is of course an economic, social and global context. But I think one of the problems relates to the decline and failures of Islamic modernism (a point made with vigour by Muhammad Qasim Zaman in his book: Islam in Pakistan). I have written a post on this recently, so do not want to labour the point. I will just say here that the governing elite - which happens to belong broadly to the Islamic modernist camp - does not seem to realise that in countering intolerant forces, there is a moral argument that it needs to make and in order to make that argument it needs to have resources it can call upon and a degree of authenticity. But the governing elite have made little effort to invest in institutions and resources that could bolster its positions. When the governing elite speaks of Islam it does so often without carrying much credibility within society. The governing elite are vulnerable when it comes to religious argumentation because of their lack of grounding in the Islamic tradition.

 

[Greenstorm]

We are moving in the right direction.

During the last 70 years, we have managed to secure ourselves despite being in the most volatile region of the world. Right now, we are in that in-between period, unshackling ourselves from the repercussions of past policies (maybe right or wrong at that time) and mismanagement/corruption. This transition period may take about a decade (depends upon lot of factors).

Pakistan was better in 2020 than it was in 2010 and I see this trend not only continuing but compounding with time. Economic prosperity awaits us !

 

[Bigboii]

We are moving in the right direction.

During the last 70 years, we have managed to secure ourselves despite being in the most volatile region of the world. Right now, we are in that in-between period, unshackling ourselves from the repercussions of past policies (maybe right or wrong at that time) and mismanagement/corruption. This transition period may take about a decade (depends upon lot of factors).

Pakistan was better in 2020 than it was in 2010 and I see this trend not only continuing but compounding with time. Economic prosperity awaits us !

Halke ao bhai...

While I agree it's moving in the right direction but it's still at least 20,30 years from now probably more

So many things that are needed for stable economic growth are still unresolved

we are just barely catching up to lay the groundworks, so thinking of economic prosperity is an afterthought at this point in time

 

[Greenstorm]

Halke ao bhai...

While I agree it's moving in the right direction but it's still at least 20,30 years from now probably more

So many things that are needed for stable economic growth are still unresolved

we are just barely catching up to lay the groundworks, so thinking of economic prosperity is an afterthought at this point in time

Well, I didn't said we will be driving lambos tomorrow on M2.

It will take a decade or two but we will get there. And CPEC (your favourite ) will play an important role in that.

 

[Gayle_Force]

This is an interesting view and is one that others have also put forward. Farzana Shaikh, for example, wrote a whole book - Making Sense of Pakistan - that argued that Pakistan’s identity crisis is the root cause of its problems. While such arguments may usefully bring to attention the ideological dimension, I think it is in need of some development and revision.

The first point to remember is that when seen through the ‘moving film’ as opposed to taking a ‘snapshot’ view, it could be argued that the nature of the Pakistani identity has evolved and is stronger now than it was at the inception of the state. It is important to remember that the very name of the country was new being first mentioned only in 1932. It was only pursued as a serious political goal after 1940. It found traction at the popular level in the areas that make up land today, very late in the colonial day -in the Punjab only two or so years before partition. The people that formed Pakistan at the outset had little history of working together politically. Adherence to the new state therefore had shallow foundations. The Pakistan idea, also, did not rest on blood and soil type of nationalism but was more abstract or conceptual. As Liaquat Ali Khan said in 1945: “the principle of territorial nationalism is opposed to the Muslim view of nationalism which is based on philosophy of society and outlook on life rather than allegiance to a piece of territory.”

In comparison, now, while Pakistanis are cognisant of the manifold problems that afflict the nation, there is an underlying pride and identification with the country, with the territory. There is now a shared history - however imperfect - of working together. It could be argued that adherence to the nation-state is greater today than it was in 1947.

The second point to make is to question an underlying assumption: that a contested national identity is a problem. In fact it is not inherently a problem. Many nations have contested national stories. The very process of contestation can in fact a good thing, if unaccompanied by violence, as there can never be one simple and correct answer as to what national identity should ultimately rest on and what parts of history in the national story should be emphasised. The sense that “all history is present history” influences how the past is remembered in a particular period and means that senses of identity never remain static. Contestation is inevitable and can be a good thing.

The problem in Pakistan is the nature of the contestation which leads in some quarters to violence or threat of violence as well as intolerance which frequently leads to appalling treatment of its minorities. I don’t want to suggest that all of Pakistan’s problems can be reduced to just the battle of ideas. There is of course an economic, social and global context. But I think one of the problems relates to the decline and failures of Islamic modernism (a point made with vigour by Muhammad Qasim Zaman in his book: Islam in Pakistan). I have written a post on this recently, so do not want to labour the point. I will just say here that the governing elite - which happens to belong broadly to the Islamic modernist camp - does not seem to realise that in countering intolerant forces, there is a moral argument that it needs to make and in order to make that argument it needs to have resources it can call upon and a degree of authenticity. But the governing elite have made little effort to invest in institutions and resources that could bolster its positions. When the governing elite speaks of Islam it does so often without carrying much credibility within society. The governing elite are vulnerable when it comes to religious argumentation because of their lack of grounding in the Islamic tradition.

Great post, but I would say that the violent nature of contestation is largely because how far apart the ideologies are within the country. I agree that a healthy debate within the country is actually good. However, the contestation is usually within a shared ideological space and usually the contestation is between how far left or right people want to be within that space.

The issue is that a nations ideology shapes its economic, cultural direction and shapes it’s global presence. I do think that the Pakistan’s best interest is in becoming a moderate nation and majority of people seem to want that. Now how moderate we want to be that can be up for debate. However, there is a strong and more vocal extreme religious faction that imo is severely holding the country back and you are correct that there is a lack of political will to handle this situation properly.

 

[Major]

Anyone voting that pakistan is heading tk the rigth direction has no idea what is going on in the country.

4 days ago i went out to buy sugar. Which ever store i went to they were out of sugar. It was after much searching did i found a shop. I asked him, why was there a sugar shortage, and the guy told me that as govt wanted to set a price at rs.80, suppliers said noo, thus we had to buy sugar in black. I bought it from the shop keeper for 110.

How could you say the country is headed in the right direction when you cant even buy sugar? Funny thing is imrans friends are part of the sugar industry.

This guy talks about the mafia, well plz take action against your friend now

 

[Gayle_Force]

Anyone voting that pakistan is heading tk the rigth direction has no idea what is going on in the country.

4 days ago i went out to buy sugar. Which ever store i went to they were out of sugar. It was after much searching did i found a shop. I asked him, why was there a sugar shortage, and the guy told me that as govt wanted to set a price at rs.80, suppliers said noo, thus we had to buy sugar in black. I bought it from the shop keeper for 110.

How could you say the country is headed in the right direction when you cant even buy sugar? Funny thing is imrans friends are part of the sugar industry.

This guy talks about the mafia, well plz take action against your friend now

That is a bad situation for sure but the other funny thing is that the Sharif Family and Zardari family directly own sugar mills. So it’s pretty clear that these families don’t have the best interest of Pakistani people at heart.

 

[Major]

That is a bad situation for sure but the other funny thing is that the Sharif Family and Zardari family directly own sugar mills. So it’s pretty clear that these families don’t have the best interest of Pakistani people at heart.

than isnt the PM suppose to take action here?

 

[90MPH]

I think Pakistan is a much better position than 10 years ago (Zardari) and slightly better position than 5 years ago (Nawaz).

Yes I know it’s a low bar but people seem to forget Pakistan was being ravaged daily by domestic terrorism for a good decade that hampered the country big time.

The security situation is now much better but unfortunately there is currently a global pandemic which of course affects everyone but much more those countries that are economically vulnerable.

There needs to be economic reforms, tackling corruption and making education a key priority. Keep the military aside and keep the religious institutions limited in power because these 2 are always holding the country back from progress.

I’m cautiously optimistic about Pakistan - people just need to watch videos of foreigners visiting the county and praising it non stop as this has happened only in the last few years and would have been unthinkable only a decade ago.

 

[Rana]

Why isn’t Islamic extremism one of the options?

 

[MenInG]

Why isn’t Islamic extremism one of the options?

It is now.

 

[PetroDollars]

I voted other, but here is my 2 cents;

Pakistan was destroyed by a combination of 3 factions (army, jaagidaars, mullahs)

Pakistan during creation was setup under the british system of zamindaars and jaagidaars, the british army got split into pak army and indian army.

The plans for the british were to have a unified nation served under this army of theres once they were gone, however at the last minute due to pressure and the changing situation they had to accept jinnahs plans of partition but created there own borders, which were placed to serve british interests and keep india and pakistan at war.

The system they had planed for a united india is what they used for pakistan, a country divided by zamindaars and ruled by the british army, now pak army. As one of the lords said, this country would be made on islamic ideology to take on communism. (I guess this is why they were able to change there mind at the last minute and accept partition)

Today this system can be clearly seen - bhuttos and zadaris were chosen to rule sindh, they merged into PPP, Punjab was divided into a number of different families, they merged under nawaz shariif and pmln, today they have split between PTI, PMLQ,PPP and PMLN, the same was the case with Balochistan and KP.

These families have ruled us for our history, but times change everything, thats because the children dont want to follow there dynasty anymore, The bhutto family is over now with all of Zulkfis kids dead and PPP taken over by the weaker Zadari clan.
In Punjab you have the same issue, most of these familys die in conflict with one another, and they send there kids to study aboard in the europe and usa, who then dont want to come back, and those that do are mentally weaker then there parents were, you can see this today in pakistan on politics show, these kids seem watered down versions of there parents and grandparents.

The case with the miliatry is that, there is no dynasty politics involved with it, kids of generals have to make there own life and people in the army get selected on merit. Therefore the officers who served the british are gone now.

The third case is with the mullahs, the british system supported pirs and they worked with there zamindaars and army, this is why brelvis supported pakistan while deoband opposed pakistans creation.

deobandis were given a lifeline in pakistan thanks to gen. Zia who made them prominate in pakistan and in politics.

The case with the brelvis is that they were never violent or a big threat, because the army would just use deobands to do the dirty work, the pirs would be happy with the money they got from the army and zamindaars for there petty work.

However things changed recently as deoband has become more and more powerful since the 1980s in pakistan and some in the army and pakistan are not happy, because the majority in pak army are brelvi. Now they want to prop up the brelvis just like the deoband were.

So in conclusion, this is why pakistan is the way it is, political dynastys will die out soon, army power in pakistan is over rated, and with both forces getting weaker and weaker we are being left with different mullah regimes with extremist mindsets.

 

[Napa]

Capitalism and not socialism is the way to prosperity. The state should not be running state run enterprises like Steel Mill, and PIA, etc.

You are on the right track here.

Imran Khan wisely decided the only way to keep them out was to bring them in.

By having the National Security Council running regularly, the Army can express their opinions there, and this way the government will know what the Army will be willing to accept and what they wont. By sharing power with the Army Imran Khan has more control over them than PPP and PML N, who had zero influence on the generals.

And you have totally lost your way.

You say IK is "wise" because he compromised with the military. You realize that compromising with the military means giving them top jobs like the CEO of PIA? Retd. Air Marshal Malik became CEO of PIA in Oct. 2018 when IK was PM.

So you recognize that the government should not be running state enterprises like the PIA, yet you support IK perpetuating that arrangement.

Sharing power with the Army doesn't give IK more control over the generals. It gives the generals more ability to keep interfering in domestic affairs.

You say PML and PPP have zero influence over the generals. Likely because they are less likely to do the generals' bidding. So IK becomes critical to the generals' goal of maintaining their dominance over the civilian government.

If IK, PML and PPP were united in their opposition to the domination of the civilian government by the Army, then Pakistan could have shaken off the biggest and the only significant obstacle it has to prosperity and the development of modern industries.

 

[Bigboii]

You are on the right track here.



And you have totally lost your way.

You say IK is "wise" because he compromised with the military. You realize that compromising with the military means giving them top jobs like the CEO of PIA? Retd. Air Marshal Malik became CEO of PIA in Oct. 2018 when IK was PM.

So you recognize that the government should not be running state enterprises like the PIA, yet you support IK perpetuating that arrangement.

Sharing power with the Army doesn't give IK more control over the generals. It gives the generals more ability to keep interfering in domestic affairs.

You say PML and PPP have zero influence over the generals. Likely because they are less likely to do the generals' bidding. So IK becomes critical to the generals' goal of maintaining their dominance over the civilian government.

If IK, PML and PPP were united in their opposition to the domination of the civilian government by the Army, then Pakistan could have shaken off the biggest and the only significant obstacle it has to prosperity and the development of modern industries.

Same issues I had with it

Cutthroat capitalism is the way forward totally agree with him there

But getting the army involved in the business of the state is bad precedent

2-How are you going to get rid of tham and flush em out of the government when time comes to kick em out

By giving tham space aren't you making tham even more powerful cause in this way you're giving tham indirect "say", "power" and making it official!

Getting army in to the mix is a terrible mistake, you're making a monster that probably would have died it's own death with long civilian administrations

But IK made tham "part" of the government and that'll be thier expectations with other Pak governments too regardless of administrations

 

[Napa]

Pakistan was better in 2020 than it was in 2010 and I see this trend not only continuing but compounding with time. Economic prosperity awaits us !

Lot of wishful thinking. Pakistan could be said to be "better" in 2020 compared to 2010 if it had developed some modern industries during the intervening 10 years. Has it?



From the above it should be obvious that it hasn't.

Bangladesh, which also doesn't have hi-tech exports, has at least significantly expanded its exports of textiles which used to be Pakistan's forte. You can see from the table below that Bangladesh's exports are now more than twice as large as Pakistan's, and that is the reason why Bangladesh's per cap (PPP and nominal) GDP is now larger than Pakistan's.



Nor is there any movement in Pakistan in creating the conditions that will attract the FDI needed for creating modern industries. Same old antics such as nurturing jihadis, IK predicting nuclear war with India is Kashmir is not "solved", regularly abusing the leader of the biggest economy in the subcontinent, and so on and so forth.

Your "Economic prosperity awaits us!" is terribly wishful thinking.

I am Indian, so some Pakistanis may doubt my intentions. However, just think about what I said without considering who said it. There is no other way for economic development and escape from poverty.

 

[Napa]

Same issues I had with it

Cutthroat capitalism is the way forward totally agree with him there

But getting the army involved in the business of the state is bad precedent

2-How are you going to get rid of tham and flush em out of the government when time comes to kick em out

By giving tham space aren't you making tham even more powerful cause in this way you're giving tham indirect "say", "power" and making it official!

Getting army in to the mix is a terrible mistake, you're making a monster that probably would have died it's own death with long civilian administrations

But IK made tham "part" of the government and that'll be thier expectations with other Pak governments too regardless of administrations

The Army has a long record of having played this game. Whenever a civilian leader tries to assert the supremacy of the civilian government, the Army encourages the opposition to stage protests etc. giving them an excuse to grab power. Remember what happened to ZA Bhutto?

 

[saeedhk]

Anyone voting that pakistan is heading tk the rigth direction has no idea what is going on in the country.

4 days ago i went out to buy sugar. Which ever store i went to they were out of sugar. It was after much searching did i found a shop. I asked him, why was there a sugar shortage, and the guy told me that as govt wanted to set a price at rs.80, suppliers said noo, thus we had to buy sugar in black. I bought it from the shop keeper for 110.

How could you say the country is headed in the right direction when you cant even buy sugar? Funny thing is imrans friends are part of the sugar industry.

This guy talks about the mafia, well plz take action against your friend now

The level of delusion in this thread is awful! Most of those commenting have not been to Pakistan in years and they do not follow the news closely. To say that Pakistan is doing bad would be an understatement!

 

[AZulfi]

I think jihalat and mixing religion with politics. As far as I am concerned, mullhas should not even be in politics. This is not their field. Religion to me is a scared thing. I am also not too comfortable with excessive display of religiosity in public. Sadly mullhas, political parties and military have all used religion from time to time for their own vested or political interests. Imran Khan should talk about making Pakistan a welfare state (just like we have one in the UK and Canada for instance where basic health and education is free for all) rather than constantly referring to the state of Medina in his speeches (despite knowing full well the people he is surrounded with and the extent of corruption in our society!)

There is 70% jihalat in our society. The most reason example being people's unwillingness to strictly follow SOPs despite repeated reminders by the government and world media; many still believing in lots of stupid conspiracy theories about Corona.

In the wake of rising Corona cases, the government thus had no option but to call in the army. Some may disagree but unfortunately humaraey log sirif dandey ki zaban hee samajhtey hein!!! Besides respect has to be earned not demanded. People don't respect or obey the police as much as they do the military - period.

PPP and Sindh as always playing politics at the cost of people's health.

 

[AZulfi]

Shahid Afridi nailed it here..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdpWu0Cqi1s

 

[AZulfi]

I think jihalat and mixing religion with politics. As far as I am concerned, mullhas should not even be in politics. This is not their field. Religion to me is a scared thing. I am also not too comfortable with excessive display of religiosity in public. Sadly mullhas, political parties and military have all used religion from time to time for their own vested or political interests. Imran Khan should talk about making Pakistan a welfare state (just like we have one in the UK and Canada for instance where basic health and education is free for all) rather than constantly referring to the state of Medina in his speeches (despite knowing full well the people he is surrounded with and the extent of corruption in our society!)

There is 70% jihalat in our society. The most recent example being people's unwillingness to strictly follow SOPs despite repeated reminders by the government and world media; many still believing in lots of stupid conspiracy theories about Corona.

In the wake of rising Corona cases, the government thus had no option but to call in the army. Some may disagree but unfortunately humaraey log sirif dandey ki zaban hee samajhtey hein!!! Besides respect has to be earned not demanded. People don't respect or obey the police as much as they do the military - period.

PPP and Sindh as always playing politics at the cost of people's health.

or get vaccinated!

 

[Bigboii]

Democracy, civilian rule for more than a decade
Terrosim isn't an issue rn, things are relatively peaceful
More political stability as in people are completely 5 year turns and transfer of power is relatively peaceful
Neo liberalist economic policies accepted by more or less every stakeholders involved in the country so in a small, little way people are at least looking in the same direction economically

So yes it is moving in the right direction

Is it moving fast enough hell no but it's moving

The man is moving in the right direction but the dog may move around here and there

Solving our problems with millitary, relgiousity, education will make sure that the man run or at least jog to his destination unlike rn where the man is strolling to his destination

So yes you're going in the right direction problem is you are not going fast enough

 

[AZulfi]

Another big issue (which holds true for most developing countries) is uncontrolled population growth. The government needs to address this thru education, public health promotion programmes, Friday sermons etc. Even Bangladesh has managed to limit it's growth rate to an extent.

No matter how much progress you make, your resources can never increase at the same pace and hence can never match such a high population growth resulting in increasing unemployment and poverty.

Just to give an example:

Pakistan population in the early 90s was around 95-100 million. Today it has soared to around 220 million! i.e. it has more than doubled in about 25 years.

UK population in the early 90s was 59 million. Today it is around 67 million. So not a lot of change since then.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Ignorance

 

[moghul]

We all have our views on what is wrong with the country and why it is heading in the wrong direction but exactly what is the issue?

Discuss.

Country is NOt heading in the wrong direction , I'm surprised with this poll.

 

[Napa]

Lot of wishful thinking. Pakistan could be said to be "better" in 2020 compared to 2010 if it had developed some modern industries during the intervening 10 years. Has it?

View attachment 108820

From the above it should be obvious that it hasn't.

Bangladesh, which also doesn't have hi-tech exports, has at least significantly expanded its exports of textiles which used to be Pakistan's forte. You can see from the table below that Bangladesh's exports are now more than twice as large as Pakistan's, and that is the reason why Bangladesh's per cap (PPP and nominal) GDP is now larger than Pakistan's.

View attachment 108820

Nor is there any movement in Pakistan in creating the conditions that will attract the FDI needed for creating modern industries. Same old antics such as nurturing jihadis, IK predicting nuclear war with India is Kashmir is not "solved", regularly abusing the leader of the biggest economy in the subcontinent, and so on and so forth.

Your "Economic prosperity awaits us!" is terribly wishful thinking.

I am Indian, so some Pakistanis may doubt my intentions. However, just think about what I said without considering who said it. There is no other way for economic development and escape from poverty.

Missed posting the correct screenshot for Bangladesh earlier.



Hasina has tamed the Army and the mullahs. To get out of poverty Pakistan needs a leader who can do the same. Nawaz was Pakistan't best bet for making that happen but the Army successfully used IK to get him out of office.

Some Bangladeshis complain that Hasina is dictatorial, but she has fought fire with fire to get her country on the path of development.

 

[Mamoon]

Country is NOt heading in the wrong direction , I'm surprised with this poll.

If I am not mistaken, you live in USA right? Thus I am not surprised that you think it is heading in the right direction. Most overseas Pakistanis seem to think that way.

 

[Zeshan547]

If I am not mistaken, you live in USA right? Thus I am not surprised that you think it is heading in the right direction. Most overseas Pakistanis seem to think that way.

Yup he is second biggest ik fan after Bewal Express, for them he can nuke pakistan and they would still defend him. Even modi bhakti pale in comparison. wish they could be made to live life of normal pakistani under supervision of their Supreme leader and then we would see, would they still have these same views about him and his government.

 

[saeedhk]

Women are lining up to get a kilogram of sugar for four to six hours in Pakistan’s sweltering heat whilst fasting. After they get a pack, their fingers are inked so they do not get another pack. The sight of this made me mad! There are videos doing the rounds of social media.

It is 2021, while other countries are making leaps in science, technology and prosperity, our people cannot even obtain sugar. The buck stops at the government! It is 100% responsible for all the mess. Shameful!

A lot of people in this thread are touch of sync with reality.

 

[Mamoon]

Yup he is second biggest ik fan after Bewal Express, for them he can nuke pakistan and they would still defend him. Even modi bhakti pale in comparison. wish they could be made to live life of normal pakistani under supervision of their Supreme leader and then we would see, would they still have these same views about him and his government.

These days, the biggest Imran and PTI supporters reside outside Pakistan. They are unaware of the ground realities and what the public goes through every day.

PTI supporters living in Pakistan have mostly realized how clueless and incompetent this government, and how Kaptaan offers nothing but castles in the air and promises that he cannot keep.

 

[Stewie]

These days, the biggest Imran and PTI supporters reside outside Pakistan. They are unaware of the ground realities and what the public goes through every day.

PTI supporters living in Pakistan have mostly realized how clueless and incompetent this government, and how Kaptaan offers nothing but castles in the air and promises that he cannot keep.

So how is he worse than the previous leaders? Or is he really worse than the previous ones?

Or is there a better alternative to IK? Do you feel Pakistan would be much better off with someone from Sharif family or Zerdari family in charge? Or maybe some mulla?

I am just curious. And please don’t respond with description of IK’s flaws... everybody has flaws.. I am hoping for a pragmatic and practical answer here. Is there any one person/party on the horizon who/which has already not had a go and ended up simply looting the country?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

And you have totally lost your way.

You say IK is "wise" because he compromised with the military. You realize that compromising with the military means giving them top jobs like the CEO of PIA? Retd. Air Marshal Malik became CEO of PIA in Oct. 2018 when IK was PM.

Wise as he realized the reality, instead of fighting a battle he cant win now. If he tried to fight them best case scenario he loses government as PML Q and MQM would leave, not to mention other lotas. Worse case scenario he is in Adiala Jail awaiting his trial.

This is the reality as unfair as it may sound.

So you recognize that the government should not be running state enterprises like the PIA, yet you support IK perpetuating that arrangement.

Sharing power with the Army doesn't give IK more control over the generals. It gives the generals more ability to keep interfering in domestic affairs.

You say PML and PPP have zero influence over the generals. Likely because they are less likely to do the generals' bidding. So IK becomes critical to the generals' goal of maintaining their dominance over the civilian government.

You got it backwards.

Sharing power does not limit the power of the PM, it actually limits the power of the COAS. Generals can interfere regardless of whether the civilians share power or not.

With PML N and PPP the COAS ran Defense, Interior, Foreign Policy (on countries they cared about), with zero civilian say.

With IK the decisions are shared, as they are made in the National Security Council, which gives civilians a say in matters which they previously did not have. Having some power is better than no power.

If IK, PML and PPP were united in their opposition to the domination of the civilian government by the Army, then Pakistan could have shaken off the biggest and the only significant obstacle it has to prosperity and the development of modern industries.

This is true, but also not possible.

In Pakistan for the last 50 years whenever a civilian government came into power and tried to assert themselves and control the army, the opposition has always been willing to cut a deal with the military in order to come into power.

Every coup was supported by the opposition. The opposition and their supporters celebrate the coup, and give it legitimacy. And when no coup happens the government just goes into survival mode, too worried to think about challenging the Army then. This is a weakness of Pakistani society, always looking for shortcuts.

This is what IK realized. This is the first time in Pakistan history, that the opposition is attacking the Army's role in politics and not the government. This suits PTI just fine, as they can focus on governing the country without having to worry about a coup. And the Army and opposition can fight each other.

 

[street cricketer]

I've probably said this line on this forum a thousand times. Any state that goes down the rabbit hole of religion is bound to fail as it's almost always a one way course where it's very hard to turn back.

Pakistan went down this route very early and is still suffering from its ramifications. India somehow held fort for some decades but is sadly going down that route again, in a bid to emulate Pakistan. And India would have to suffer the consequences of it and I'd argue it is already suffering from the consequences of having gone down that route some years back.

 

[Bigboii]

^
Asking for trouble my man...

 

[Giannis]

I've probably said this line on this forum a thousand times. Any state that goes down the rabbit hole of religion is bound to fail as it's almost always a one way course where it's very hard to turn back.

Pakistan went down this route very early and is still suffering from its ramifications. India somehow held fort for some decades but is sadly going down that route again, in a bid to emulate Pakistan. And India would have to suffer the consequences of it and I'd argue it is already suffering from the consequences of having gone down that route some years back.

I'd argue India has always been down that route it's just in the open now

 

[street cricketer]

I'd argue India has always been down that route it's just in the open now

There have always been extremist elements in the Indian society but the "hindu nationalist" agenda has never been as out in the open among a majority of Indian population as it is now.

 

[Giannis]

There have always been extremist elements in the Indian society but the "hindu nationalist" agenda has never been as out in the open among a majority of Indian population as it is now.

Idk bluestar 1984 and Kashmir in the 90s begs to differe

 

[street cricketer]

Idk bluestar 1984 and Kashmir in the 90s begs to differe

Don't get the reference.. Both were events related to insurgencies.

 

[street cricketer]

^
Asking for trouble my man...

Not talking about any religion specifically. I'm not one of those hindu "atheists", I genuinely believe any state modelled on any religion (yes, that includes hinduism) is bound to fail.

 

[Napa]

India somehow held fort for some decades but is sadly going down that route again, in a bid to emulate Pakistan. And India would have to suffer the consequences of it and I'd argue it is already suffering from the consequences of having gone down that route some years back.

It seems that you believe India did well in the first few decades after independence. The sad reality is that thanks to Nehruvian Socialism, by 1980 we had 51% of the Indian population in extreme poverty as measured by the WHO. It was only after liberalization in the 1990s that poverty started declining.

 

[Bigboii]

It seems that you believe India did well in the first few decades after independence. The sad reality is that thanks to Nehruvian Socialism, by 1980 we had 51% of the Indian population in extreme poverty as measured by the WHO. It was only after liberalization in the 1990s that poverty started declining.

You disagree with him on economy, he disagrees with you due to sociol issues

 

[street cricketer]

It seems that you believe India did well in the first few decades after independence. The sad reality is that thanks to Nehruvian Socialism, by 1980 we had 51% of the Indian population in extreme poverty as measured by the WHO. It was only after liberalization in the 1990s that poverty started declining.

What [MENTION=151956]Bigboii[/MENTION] said..

 

[Napa]

Wise as he realized the reality, instead of fighting a battle he cant win now. If he tried to fight them best case scenario he loses government as PML Q and MQM would leave, not to mention other lotas.

You put together sentences in an attempt to justify everything IK does, however it is unconvincing. As far as I can see, there has been no reduction in the power of the Army with IK as PM. And consequently there has been no progress in fixing the dysfunctional Pakistani economic system.

You are saying that IK realized he can't fight the Army, so he compromised with them. The reality is that the Army remains all-powerful because of pliant politicians like IK. Other politicians like Nawaz have shown a lot more courage and have paid a price of long stays in cramped jail cells, IK doesn't have that courage.

Framing Pakistan's economic problems due to "loot by corrupt politicians" is a losing proposition, it ignores the real issue. Pakistan's economy would have been producing at least $300 billion more than it is producing now if it had developed modern industries. Some vague allegations about a few million dollars stolen totally misses the point.

Sharing power does not limit the power of the PM, it actually limits the power of the COAS. Generals can interfere regardless of whether the civilians share power or not.

No, sharing power perpetuates the power of the generals. Generals in many democracies around the world do not interfere. Spain, Argentina, Brazil etc. all had generals in command, and they were driven out. It needs a sustained movement to get them out of civilian life.

It is well known that Nawaz was the one PM who most tried to curb the power of the generals. IK is the tool the generals used to drive him out of power.

With PML N and PPP the COAS ran Defense, Interior, Foreign Policy (on countries they cared about), with zero civilian say.

Nawaz had earlier taken on the Army and actually removed Karamat, something rare for the head of the civilian government to do. In this last term, Nawaz's position was weakened by the street protests by IK, which led him being forced to hand over foreign policy to the Army. The Army did not want improved relations with India (which would make their own position weaker domestically), and Nawaz had to back down. Improved relations with India would have improved the security situation in Pakistan, something essential for the development of modern industries.

With IK the decisions are shared, as they are made in the National Security Council, which gives civilians a say in matters which they previously did not have. Having some power is better than no power.

This is just wishful thinking. Half-measures do not work in the real world. You seem to believe that the Army cannot be tamed, but nothing good happens unless people show the courage to bring about the positive change.

This is true, but also not possible.

In Pakistan for the last 50 years whenever a civilian government came into power and tried to assert themselves and control the army, the opposition has always been willing to cut a deal with the military in order to come into power.

Like IK did. So IK represents stagnation, and the fact that the economy is stagnating without any move towards modern industries is obvious.

Every coup was supported by the opposition. The opposition and their supporters celebrate the coup, and give it legitimacy. And when no coup happens the government just goes into survival mode, too worried to think about challenging the Army then. This is a weakness of Pakistani society, always looking for shortcuts.

This is what IK realized. This is the first time in Pakistan history, that the opposition is attacking the Army's role in politics and not the government. This suits PTI just fine, as they can focus on governing the country without having to worry about a coup. And the Army and opposition can fight each other.

Seemingly very smart politics, but it won't work. Governing without curbing the Army's power is guaranteed to continue the dysfunction. IK has achieved zero in terms of improving the perception of Pakistan amongst Western firms whose investments are necessary for developing modern industries.

Finally, it is your country. If you can't find the right path, your country's economy will stagnate. I am going to quit this thread, be well.

 

[Napa]

You disagree with him on economy, he disagrees with you due to sociol issues

You are right

Hard for people to worry about social issues when they are going hungry to bed at night.

But I agree that one doesn't need to be intolerant about religion to have economic progress. Best to be tolerant and also have economic progress.

 

[Bigboii]

" No, sharing power perpetuates the power of the generals. Generals in many democracies around the world do not interfere. Spain, Argentina, Brazil etc. all had generals in command, and they were driven out. It needs a sustained movement to get them out of civilian life.

It is well known that Nawaz was the one PM who most tried to curb the power of the generals. IK is the tool the generals used to drive him out of power."

Focus on this

General have userped power in many other countries but how you deal with tham afterwards is the real issue

Instead of kicking tham out you are legitimizing thier power

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

You put together sentences in an attempt to justify everything IK does, however it is unconvincing. As far as I can see, there has been no reduction in the power of the Army with IK as PM. And consequently there has been no progress in fixing the dysfunctional Pakistani economic system.

You are saying that IK realized he can't fight the Army, so he compromised with them. The reality is that the Army remains all-powerful because of pliant politicians like IK. Other politicians like Nawaz have shown a lot more courage and have paid a price of long stays in cramped jail cells, IK doesn't have that courage.

IK supporters did not vote for him to fight the Army, or reduce their power. In 2018 it was Nawaz and Maryam who were running on the anti establishment platform.

When you win an election you get a limited amount of political capital, and its wise to use it on what your supporters care about, and not the opposition.

Maryam has a chance to win in 2023, and as she will be running on an anti establishment platform, she will try to reduce their power if she wins.

Nawaz had earlier taken on the Army and actually removed Karamat, something rare for the head of the civilian government to do. In this last term, Nawaz's position was weakened by the street protests by IK, which led him being forced to hand over foreign policy to the Army. The Army did not want improved relations with India (which would make their own position weaker domestically), and Nawaz had to back down. Improved relations with India would have improved the security situation in Pakistan, something essential for the development of modern industries.

His position was weakened because he tried Musharraf for treason. IK took advantage of that in the hopes the Army would do a coup and hold new elections, that he believed he would win.

The generals did not do a coup, but Nawaz was weakened badly. No need to feel sorry for him though, he did what IK did to many other politicians.

You seem to believe that the Army cannot be tamed, but nothing good happens unless people show the courage to bring about the positive change.

Yes. The current corp commanders of the Army, who are in their mid 50's, who have served under Zia and Musharraf, wont become Jeffersonian Democrats. Its an unrealistic position to have.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

" No, sharing power perpetuates the power of the generals. Generals in many democracies around the world do not interfere. Spain, Argentina, Brazil etc. all had generals in command, and they were driven out. It needs a sustained movement to get them out of civilian life.

It is well known that Nawaz was the one PM who most tried to curb the power of the generals. IK is the tool the generals used to drive him out of power."

Focus on this

General have userped power in many other countries but how you deal with tham afterwards is the real issue

Instead of kicking tham out you are legitimizing thier power

The generals lost half the country. Had Bhutto held them accountable, had he published the Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report, had he tried them for treason, their position would not be as strong today.


Now you have 2 realistic options to reduce the generals power today:

1 - Continuous democracy - hope that the generals power gradually declines. Will take at least a generation to have a chance to work, and its completely unrealistic to expect generals who served in Zia and Musharraf era dictatorships to get out of politics.

2 - Deliver Economically - Best example is Erdgoan in Turkey. He put the generals in their place, and the Turkish Army had way more power than the Pakistani one. Generals attempted a coup and millions took to the street to protest.

If you dont want to wait that long, or just on principal, you want the generals out of power asap, then you need to support Maryam in 2023. She regardless of what one might think of her, has been consistently anti establishment. And she will attempt to take them out of politics.

However its wrong to expect IK to use his political capital on an issue most of his supporters dont consider to be a top priority.

 

[Bigboii]

The generals lost half the country. Had Bhutto held them accountable, had he published the Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report, had he tried them for treason, their position would not be as strong today.


Now you have 2 realistic options to reduce the generals power today:

1 - Continuous democracy - hope that the generals power gradually declines. Will take at least a generation to have a chance to work, and its completely unrealistic to expect generals who served in Zia and Musharraf era dictatorships to get out of politics.

2 - Deliver Economically - Best example is Erdgoan in Turkey. He put the generals in their place, and the Turkish Army had way more power than the Pakistani one. Generals attempted a coup and millions took to the street to protest.

If you dont want to wait that long, or just on principal, you want the generals out of power asap, then you need to support Maryam in 2023. She regardless of what one might think of her, has been consistently anti establishment. And she will attempt to take them out of politics.

However its wrong to expect IK to use his political capital on an issue most of his supporters dont consider to be a top priority.

She is too dumb to do that instead she'll ruin the PMLN name by delivering horrible performances in terms of devolpment and GDP

Without SS and some extent NS there's no competent party in sight

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

She is too dumb to do that instead she'll ruin the PMLN name by delivering horrible performances in terms of devolpment and GDP

Without SS and some extent NS there's no competent party in sight

SS has the same policy as IK in regards to generals involvement in politics. That while not ideal, its not possible to get rid of them now, and you need to work with them.

And i think Maryam will take over PML N.

 

[Minnowbasher]

Everything boils down to military strength. Until the military stop getting involved in the country's affairs our country is going nowhere.
The most corrupt people in Pakistan are the establishment because they know they can be as corrupt as they want without being questioned.

 

[PakLFC]

It is down to the guilty not being punished. The looted money of the Sharif's, Zardari and co are still outstanding. Nothing will change until we recover their wealth thereby making it clear that crime won't pay in Pakistan. It is impossible to progress until justice is delivered.

 

[Greenstorm]

Lot of wishful thinking. Pakistan could be said to be "better" in 2020 compared to 2010 if it had developed some modern industries during the intervening 10 years. Has it?

I meant better in terms of security situation. This stability will ensure economic growth in future.
View attachment 108820

From the above it should be obvious that it hasn't.

Bangladesh, which also doesn't have hi-tech exports, has at least significantly expanded its exports of textiles which used to be Pakistan's forte. You can see from the table below that Bangladesh's exports are now more than twice as large as Pakistan's, and that is the reason why Bangladesh's per cap (PPP and nominal) GDP is now larger than Pakistan's.

View attachment 108820

Nor is there any movement in Pakistan in creating the conditions that will attract the FDI needed for creating modern industries. Same old antics such as nurturing jihadis, IK predicting nuclear war with India is Kashmir is not "solved", regularly abusing the leader of the biggest economy in the subcontinent, and so on and so forth.

Same old Indian tantrums. Jihadis, IK, leader of biggest economy.
I am no economist but I can see a clear shift in economic policies since this government took over. They are trying to change and streamline the underlying economic structure, making it business friendly, moving towards free market economy. And we are seeing the results already with increase in exports, Faisalabad getting back to optimum textile production (they were asking for more workers from other cities, such is the demand). Bureaucratic hindrances for businesses being removed. Startup culture is taking roots (part of one myself), educated youth (tabdeeli cult as they) is actually striving to improve this country . There is a great boost in infrastructure (thanks to CPEC).
I know what I am saying goes against the doom and gloom narrative that is peddled here but someone has to do it.

Your "Economic prosperity awaits us!" is terribly wishful thinking.

Indians can have their wishes but I know my country.

I am Indian, so some Pakistanis may doubt my intentions. However, just think about what I said without considering who said it. There is no other way for economic development and escape from poverty.

'Who said it' cannot be ignored. Apart from your intentions, your lack of knowledge about Pakistan is apparent as daylight in your posts. You are the guy who said PML N would sweep Punjab in 2018 GEs , (even NS himself would have laughed hearing that). Your simplistic/malicious Indian narrative of military=jihadis=poor economy does not address even a fraction of complexity in Pakistan.
Its a waste of time to deal with clueless Indians and certain 'Pakistanis' on this forum. .

Bold