I know that this Pak side is rubbish, but this is probably the greatest NZL side in the post Hadlee era. Kiwis under Fleming were good, but not as good as this current Kiwi side.
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Why has Imran Khan failed to revive the fortunes of Pakistan cricket?
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I know that this Pak side is rubbish, but this is probably the greatest NZL side in the post Hadlee era. Kiwis under Fleming were good, but not as good as this current Kiwi side.
Thunderbolt14
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Mamoon: Have realistic expectations and celebrate the small achievements, we are a mediocre team and occasionally beating a top 4 side should be celebrated the way Norwich celebrates beating a top 6 team.
Also Mamoon: If I was made CEO of the PCB, the first thing I would do is remove any reference to the 1992 world cup as it was a fluke and should not be celebrated by a mediocre team that rejoices in being “mercurial” with the ability to beat any team on their day. Fans are delusional.
Rana
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I think he interprets optimism as delusion. And ‘Delusion’ to be a blasphemous act in sport if you are a supporter of Pakistan cricket. We diagnose that he will be at peace if everyone on this forum loses optimism.
If that’s the case, then I suppose the cricket section on which he is a very active member should really, be closed down and the freedom of personal expression should also be barred.
Nobody wants to support a loser team. If people accept we are mediocre and don’t wish to see changes for improvement than they simply don’t care about the team. Why watch something knowing full well things will never change? Secondly what you are saying right now is exactly what the management thinks. They are happy with being a mediocre team.
Savak
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Given the numerous gigantic problems facing the country, i don't blame the PM for not having this on his agenda. Even the likes of Ehsan Mani, Wasim Khan have to book an appointment with him for months and even then he doesn't given them more than 20-30 minutes.
But i would like the PM to visit the PCB headquarters, maybe the team's cricket camp, interact with the players and maybe do a joint press conference with Ehsan Mani, Wasim Khan and co explaining his vision for Pakistan Cricket and what he would like done. He has to do this once in his tenure and to put everyone on notice
But i would like the PM to visit the PCB headquarters, maybe the team's cricket camp, interact with the players and maybe do a joint press conference with Ehsan Mani, Wasim Khan and co explaining his vision for Pakistan Cricket and what he would like done. He has to do this once in his tenure and to put everyone on notice
I’ll blame Imran on one point though - appointing Mani as permanent PCB chief position. He was brought to fix house and amend PCB constitution, but it should have ended here - there was no reason to keep this old guy through “election”.
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Loser teams are supported in every sport. If sports was all about winning, weak teams would not have fans. It is all about how you manage your expectations.
Instead of fantasizing and demanding PCB to reach the level that fans have in mind, the fans need to lower their expectations to reach PCB’s level.
The fans need to redefine criteria of success. If Pakistan can manage a ranking of 5th or 6th across formats and produce a couple of world class cricketers in every generation, it would be a successful for a weak cricket nation like Pakistan.
A sport is about winning. Losing is part of any game but ultimately its about showing fight in the loss. Even loser teams have won something for them to have fans as such. Pakistan’s Cricket team is no exception. We have won some ICC tournaments so its only natural we’d want our standards to be higher.
No we don’t have to lower our expectations to reach PCB’s level. We as fans have a voice, if something we feel is not being done right. This is age of social media that allows multiple people’s opinions to be herd.
Change won’t come if we sit around waiting for it. It will come when we try different set ups to see what clicks. In this case we need to try a different management to get the best out of our players. Rather it works or not only god knows. Point is to try. A great Pakistan team is great for World Cricket.
How do you know these people book appointments with him?
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Again - more delusion. A great Pakistan team is great for Pakistani fans only, it has nothing to do with world cricket.
Pakistan didn’t play Test cricket in Pakistan and couldn’t get any big team to tour for over a decade, but it didn’t impact world cricket in any way.
Not single Pakistani player has played in IPL since 2009, and has has not stopped IPL from becoming a giant.
On the other hand, you can imagine the impact on world cricket of Australian or English summer or Indian home season is taken out of the calendar, or the impact on growth of IPL if the likes of Warner, de Villiers, Malinga, Gayle, Narine, Rabada, Steyn, McCullum, Hussey, Watson etc. etc. were banned alongside Pakistani players.
Our fans might think we are centre of attention in international cricket but that is not the case. Pakistan is a very, very average team that is seen as a small, weak cricket nation now.
Rest of your posts suggests that you are happy to have lofty expectations. Well the choice is yours, because lofty expectations bring lofty disappointment.
Local.Dada
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There is nothing wrong in blaming Imran khan here.
While the argument that Imran Khan doesn’t have a magic wand and can’t fix problems overnight is very valid, let me tell you why Imran Khan is to blame.
Modi as a PM will obviously get the credit or criticism for anything that happens with India but his reputation as a politician/leader will be at stake even more if his own state or even worse his own constituency starts having major issues.
As we all know, politicians are very shrewd and cunning. For ever $100 they loot, they will make sure they spend at least $1 very wisely more like an investment may be to please their voter base and give quick handouts during elections.
Usually politicians who rise up through the ranks or from powerful families have this voter base and a strong foundation.
I cant comment as I don’t know the inner workings of Pakistan politics but if I had to bet, Bhutto and Nawaz family would also have some small region, ethnic grou, area or some demographic under them that they will
ensure will be relatively catered to than the rest of Pakistan. For eg, things like having no power outage, no water problems etc in the voter base areas.
I have personally seen that in India where the home base of some powerful politicians looked a lot more developed than rest of the immediate neighboring areas even if they are in charge of the rest of the areas as well.
Imran sorry to say has not come through the grind. Sure he may have had his own struggles fighting the status quo or whatever but it is his reputation as a cricketer which made him a national player and rise up the ranks so fast. Correct me if I am wrong but don’t think he wasn a local MP/MLA,local
Coroprator, state or central minister etc etc.
He was a national hero and he became a big time player in national politics due to that.
His identity is cricket just like most big shot politicians have their own religiosity caste,class,ethnicity,tribe, region related identities.
So as a person with no track record as an administrator at any level, he will rightfully be judged on the one thing that made him a PM, which is his legendary cricket career.
So while he doesn’t have a magic wand, he does have the influence or common sense to improve something that has resulted in him becoming a PM in the first place. Not very hard to understand.
While the argument that Imran Khan doesn’t have a magic wand and can’t fix problems overnight is very valid, let me tell you why Imran Khan is to blame.
Modi as a PM will obviously get the credit or criticism for anything that happens with India but his reputation as a politician/leader will be at stake even more if his own state or even worse his own constituency starts having major issues.
As we all know, politicians are very shrewd and cunning. For ever $100 they loot, they will make sure they spend at least $1 very wisely more like an investment may be to please their voter base and give quick handouts during elections.
Usually politicians who rise up through the ranks or from powerful families have this voter base and a strong foundation.
I cant comment as I don’t know the inner workings of Pakistan politics but if I had to bet, Bhutto and Nawaz family would also have some small region, ethnic grou, area or some demographic under them that they will
ensure will be relatively catered to than the rest of Pakistan. For eg, things like having no power outage, no water problems etc in the voter base areas.
I have personally seen that in India where the home base of some powerful politicians looked a lot more developed than rest of the immediate neighboring areas even if they are in charge of the rest of the areas as well.
Imran sorry to say has not come through the grind. Sure he may have had his own struggles fighting the status quo or whatever but it is his reputation as a cricketer which made him a national player and rise up the ranks so fast. Correct me if I am wrong but don’t think he wasn a local MP/MLA,local
Coroprator, state or central minister etc etc.
He was a national hero and he became a big time player in national politics due to that.
His identity is cricket just like most big shot politicians have their own religiosity caste,class,ethnicity,tribe, region related identities.
So as a person with no track record as an administrator at any level, he will rightfully be judged on the one thing that made him a PM, which is his legendary cricket career.
So while he doesn’t have a magic wand, he does have the influence or common sense to improve something that has resulted in him becoming a PM in the first place. Not very hard to understand.
NishanKonar
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To be fair to Imran Khan, the changes in first class structure are welcome steps but will take 5-7 years to bear fruit if done in the right spirit
However this cringeworthy "Naseem is 17 years " stuff from even sensible folks like Wasim Khan makes me wonder how much things have really changed on the ground. Fact that professional board promotes fake age players so openly make me wonder how competent the board truly is !
Of course overage players is just 1 problem among many in Pakistan cricket , but the board's approach does not reflect well on its integrity & efficiency. Makes me wonder how other issues " parchi " culture & lack of professionalism has been addressed
However this cringeworthy "Naseem is 17 years " stuff from even sensible folks like Wasim Khan makes me wonder how much things have really changed on the ground. Fact that professional board promotes fake age players so openly make me wonder how competent the board truly is !
Of course overage players is just 1 problem among many in Pakistan cricket , but the board's approach does not reflect well on its integrity & efficiency. Makes me wonder how other issues " parchi " culture & lack of professionalism has been addressed
Minnowbasher
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Even as an IK supporter i would like to say that his cricket knowledge is rubbish these days. His era was completely different and he ought to stay as far from Pakistan Cricket as possible.
That's incorrect as Pakistan team is part of world cricket. Nothing delusional about that. Its just facts.
That's true cause your point has to do with Pakistan Cricket and not World Cricket. However we do know why they never hosted it. What transpired in it defiantly affected World Cricket.
While I am happy for IPL's great success it has nothing to do with World Cricket. IPL is a domestic League that allowed other Leagues to be created so they give international cricketers extra earnings. It by no means effects World Cricket. We survived without IPL just fine.
I doubt any genuine fan thinks this. Is the team the Centre of there own attention sure. But by no means does a average fan think we are the centre of International cricket. We are a team with a great fast bowling legacy though. We are a average team now, however we used to be a better team in the past. A team that inspired other people. That is why its important for Pakistan to become a better team. Its a big part of cricket history. Rather you like to admit it or not there are people who care for this countries cricket outside of Pakistan.
Naw just like you I have my own predications. Not all of them are right. As a fan you grow as a person to accept the ups and downs of the team. Not every time its sunshine and rainbows there are dark phases for a team. Its how you get out of them matters. We tried the Misbah experiment its time to try someone new. If that new person fails than its ok we will continue to grow to find a suitable person to run our team.
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fitCricFan
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As a former elite cricketer, IK sits in a unique position with proper perspective both as a player and an administrator. Being privy to the inner workings of the game on both sides, he very well understands the frustrations and challenges of the players and management.
As the nations top dog, he has the full authority to introduce changes to the cricketing infrastructure at every level for the benefit of the game and its players. The fact that even after 2 years of leading the country, there have been no significant positive development in Pakistan Cricket tells you that either the Cricket lobby in Pakistan is too strong for him or he doesn't have any interest to improve the game. Either way its inexcusable.
While he was an aspiring politician gunning for the top spot, you could hear him say all that was wrong with cricket in Pakistan and how it could be improved and the steps he would personally take to do it. Now that he has the opportunity to do so, nothing is happening.
If nothing happens under IK, there isn't much hope for the future of Cricket in Pakistan and it will be relegated to the same status as Field Hockey a slow but sure death.
As the nations top dog, he has the full authority to introduce changes to the cricketing infrastructure at every level for the benefit of the game and its players. The fact that even after 2 years of leading the country, there have been no significant positive development in Pakistan Cricket tells you that either the Cricket lobby in Pakistan is too strong for him or he doesn't have any interest to improve the game. Either way its inexcusable.
While he was an aspiring politician gunning for the top spot, you could hear him say all that was wrong with cricket in Pakistan and how it could be improved and the steps he would personally take to do it. Now that he has the opportunity to do so, nothing is happening.
If nothing happens under IK, there isn't much hope for the future of Cricket in Pakistan and it will be relegated to the same status as Field Hockey a slow but sure death.
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Imran has already introduced the new 6 team structure which has been widely hailed as a success by supporters and critics alike and which has systematically improved coaching, pitches, player development, and youth promotion while phasing out and exposing hacks, oldies, and bullies. What other big changes are you expecting a new system to reap only 1 year after it’s been introduced?
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Rellu_Katta
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when i was in lahore ... and was a student, got chance to see some of the games ... domestic games... given it was almost 0 security, you could go and sit on the pitch for that matter n no1 would argue.... straight of massive edges , umpire wont give out.. players would actually openly say to umpire "50-50 decisions r understandable but this is day light robbery" (not exact words but something of that nature). and i think i have actually seen more domestic games than any selector back in the day .... ironic
Rellu_Katta
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it took india about 15 years to get from Ashok Dinda's and Kulkarni's and Parsad's to where they r today.
Bummrah has been around since what 2010? only got this good in last 2 years .. so yes give this regime atleast 1 year from now to show results ... not to be at 100% fixed but showing "obvious" improvements
basic things are set right.. if it doesnt fume up to the national team level then we shld hold management responsible ...
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Savak
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Imran Khan can at best appoint the right person to head the PCB to run it, at best he can visit the PCB headquarters, players and explain his own vision for Pakistan Cricket
But being the PM of the country, he has much bigger problems and issues to worry about. It's not his job or responsibility to micro manage the PCB.
But being the PM of the country, he has much bigger problems and issues to worry about. It's not his job or responsibility to micro manage the PCB.
Local.Dada
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It’s surprising people on a cricket forum where there are hardcore cricket fans make such half baked statements without any credible research.
India has been producing fast bowling talent for a while now even though they have either been mismanaged or due to their own laziness and stupidity messed it up.
Sreeshanth has won India 2 test matches in SA, he was part of WT20 and WC winning squads, RP Singh contributed to WT20 and series win in England,
Pathan helped us win WT20,Series in Pak and a test in Aus,
Ishant helped us win a test in Aus,Eng,CT etc.
You might have a point though that India took a while to figure managing this pool of incoming talent and resources but there was a process set in place that always put Indian cricket on the upward trend since 1980’s after that WC win.
From 1-2 good batsmen to a star studded batting line up, from 1 fast bowler to 1.5 bl fast bowlers to a group of rookie/wayward but talented fast bowlers to what we have today. It was a constant evolution.
At least on a cricket forum talk like you know a thing or 2 about cricket. Prasad and Kuruvulla are a thing of 90’s, that was more than 25 years ago.
Your memory might be stuck there because that was the last time Pakistan had a decent world class team. For what it’s worth, the Same Prasad owned Pakistan in 2 world cups though, same benchmark that makes Amir a super talent lol. He also bowled well in Eng and SA.
So no it didn’t take India a magic wand.
From Kapil we went to Kapil + dibbly dobbly seamers to Kapil + Prabhakar
Later Srinath cam in to the mix followed by Prasad Followed by Agarkar, Nehra,Zak (should I list their accomplishments?)
Then came a bigger pool,Irfan,Munaf,RP,Sreeshanth ,Balaji, Ishant.
This has led to what we have today.
As you can see it is a constant evolution over a period of time due to good standards, procedures and checks and balances in place.
India was struggling for fast bowlers but they never got over excited and pulled trigger on any 17-18 year old kid because he can bowl over 135 clicks. They slowly identified and worked on a pool of talented bowlers.
All hail BCCI
We can significanly improve our bowling and bit of batting, but I highly doubt we can ever produce high caliber batsmen like Kohli, Rohit, Tendulqar, Dravid, Gavasker.... Its not in our gene.
[MENTION=151383]Local.Dada[/MENTION], Also Indian bowlers use their intelligent to get the most of it where our bowlers rely on pre-plan theory before the match. Our bowlers don't adjust their bowling according to pitch, if pitch suit our bowling its very hard to negotiate if not total bashing. Even bowler like Prasad can beat Waqar in pressure matches 8 out of 10 times. That's why Waqar was only good in bi-lateral matches where lack of pressure.
I agree some Pakistan fans have unrealistic expectations, especially of our bowlers, and must reckon with our inability to produce elite sportsmen bar few exceptions due to a pathetic system and outdated mindsets.
However this's where your analysis is overly simplistic. PCB belatedly are doing the groundwork for meaningful change. The old FC system with a hotchpotch of departments and subpar regions, convoluted formats that changed annually, and awful pitches/balls needed binning. Babar aside, it failed to produce a single world-class cricketer in 15 years. Imran's out of touch with cricket but he's been consistently right on this for 40 years. If PCB revive club and city cricket, for the first time in our history we'll have a clear pathway: school, club, city, U19 and 2nd XI to FC cricket.
Obviously that alone isn't enough. Coaching is the biggest difference between Pakistan, where previously any ex-player could buy accreditations, and India. Genetics isn't why they produced elite batsmen, and now top bowlers. They too have street/maidan cricket but unlike us, their kids are properly trained in their system. Hence now PCB introduced a new coaching curriculum aligned with ECB's, and domestic coaches are subject to annual reviews. That's not useless cosmetic change.
The NCA was a scam where officials were lining their pockets, but now there's defined roles and responsibilities ensuring accountability. Many of the long-time employees like Haroon Rashid, Ali Zia, Subhan Ahmed, Intikhab Alam and Papa Shafiq were moved on.
I agree the handling of Mickey's exit and Misbah's appointment was farcical for which Mani/Wasim deserve criticism. However I never saw any of these grassroots reforms occur under the regimes of Nasim Ashraf, Ijaz Butt, Zaka Ashraf, Shehryar Khan or Najam Sethi. All played around the edges but refused to take unpopular decisions and take on the status quo mafia. So let's be more nuanced with our critiques instead of black/white condemnations.
Rellu_Katta
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if it was all so amazing... why didnt Ind win any series overseas for this long? .. if winning the test match was so great, how come u didnt mention the great agarkar...
1 test wonders dont count as anything but fluke talent. mostly the games were won by the batting with runs or fear ofruns playing on oppositions mind.
do mention agarkar and nehra and their achievements... and take the batting out of the picture when u do that plz
ur biological clock might be stuck a few dacades back but then anyone named in that lineup will fail to make into any era team even for the subcontinent
Local.Dada
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Agarkar has won a test vs Aus and as far as his odi career goes has 288 wickets at an average of 27.85, how many pak bowlers would you say have done better than that? I am not even counting his batting
and fielding.
Nehra is a WC winner, played a key role when team reached a WC final, has 150+ odi wickets, can you tell me how many pak bowlers not named 2w’s have done better?
1 test wonders are fine as long as they win test matches.
For example What have Amir or Asif done that much more than say Agarkar or Nehra? But one are the best thing since slice bread despite being fixers and having a very small career but Agarkar or Nehra are Trundlers? Lol
Shoaib Akthar has 247 wickets at 25 average and Agarkar has 288 wickets at 27 average but how come Agarkar is a Trundler and Shoaib as the guys on game on hai would say the “fastest man on the planet” ahead of Bolt etc.
And to add Shoaib has played along with some of the best odi bowlers in the world.
Local.Dada
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Also at [MENTION=150544]Rellu_Katta[/MENTION] India has won series in Nzl, Eng, WI (back in the day) and test matches in Aus even in the 80’s, so again not sure where you are getting this India hasn’t won overseas before this new bowling attack theory from.
Yes Pak has produced 3 ATG level bowlers in the 2W’s and Imran and May be next tier good bowlers like Shoaib and they won in Nzl and Eng during their era but it’s not like Pakistan is an overseas monster either. They didn’t win a series in WI till 2017 even though WI team has been weak for over 2.5 decades now.
Not sure what is your point
Yes Pak has produced 3 ATG level bowlers in the 2W’s and Imran and May be next tier good bowlers like Shoaib and they won in Nzl and Eng during their era but it’s not like Pakistan is an overseas monster either. They didn’t win a series in WI till 2017 even though WI team has been weak for over 2.5 decades now.
Not sure what is your point
Canistani Hero
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By 2023 - By the end of the first tenure. That's only fair. He has implemented the changes he felt would bring the cream of the crop against eachother, eliminating the departments. 6 regional teams eliminates alot of bits and pieces players, unfortunately the seniority culture means it will take a few years to wash out the Imran Farhat's off this world, only then will we see people like Kamran Ghulam rising to the ocassion.
BunnyRabbit
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Let fans support their team. Why does it impinge your nerves if fans are complaining or hyping up the team. Every one to themselves. You can't possibly comment every time a thread is made or when people are commenting. Can you really stop millions of fans?
iniqbal223
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I don't know why people now start to blame IK suddenly. The same people who touted Misbah as some sort of Messiah when he was given dual role..Misbah was highly influential and powerful even before IK came to the power. Don't know what he did with PCB chairmans of the past. Go back and read what previous chairmen from 2010 onwards said about Misbah..Perhaps they found him easy to work with, manageable, and someone PCB elites never had any threat of..Similarly, they saw Azhar Ali in the same lines...
The fact which we don't understand is, problem lies with our culture in particular.. We are not hard working, our media gets excited too early and hype up any new player based on 1/2 performances..
People in power make decisions, sometimes decision go right or they fail.. But the main thing is if they realize when to make the change if something is not working..Mani and Wasim Khan job was to promote Pakistan cricket and bring teams back in Pakistan... That is why they have given full responsibilities to Misbah and Waqar.. What they would do if these 2 leeches are corrupt and incompetent as coaches
We fans also have short term memory, after few years when Waqar would return again, we will become excited again...
The fact which we don't understand is, problem lies with our culture in particular.. We are not hard working, our media gets excited too early and hype up any new player based on 1/2 performances..
People in power make decisions, sometimes decision go right or they fail.. But the main thing is if they realize when to make the change if something is not working..Mani and Wasim Khan job was to promote Pakistan cricket and bring teams back in Pakistan... That is why they have given full responsibilities to Misbah and Waqar.. What they would do if these 2 leeches are corrupt and incompetent as coaches
We fans also have short term memory, after few years when Waqar would return again, we will become excited again...
18 years of war on Terror is the reason of decline in our cricket
Pakistan cricket was never in this dire situation as it is today. War on terror led to daily blasts, huge exodus in the form of legal/ illegal talent immigration, poverty and disruption in daily lives. With so much chaos superimposed with corrupt positioning of the most inept people, biased selection and no investment on domestic players or ground led to where our cricket is today. You can't blame one or two factors but problem was and is multifactorial.
How our Pm takes cricket out of this hole is yet to be seen.
Pakistan cricket was never in this dire situation as it is today. War on terror led to daily blasts, huge exodus in the form of legal/ illegal talent immigration, poverty and disruption in daily lives. With so much chaos superimposed with corrupt positioning of the most inept people, biased selection and no investment on domestic players or ground led to where our cricket is today. You can't blame one or two factors but problem was and is multifactorial.
How our Pm takes cricket out of this hole is yet to be seen.
Manunited18
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Also ten years of playing in uae has been a massive factor for pakistan
praveen
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Not playing at home is a big blow but they recovered to being #1 . Quite a fall since and I’m puzzled how the bowling stocks became so barren.
Thunderbolt14
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I don’t know about Sri Lanka and appreciate that their institutions remained intact despite the civil war.
But kids were afraid to play on the streets of Karachi, Peshawar, and Lahore due to terrorism and street crime for the better part of 15 years
Our institutions eroded, from schools to clubs, to cricketing academies and to the money that comes into the system. Economy collapsed more than it has ever done before - this in turn affected everything in Pakistan.
This is just the age group impact I’m talking about. The shift to UAE is also worth considering.
But kids were afraid to play on the streets of Karachi, Peshawar, and Lahore due to terrorism and street crime for the better part of 15 years
Our institutions eroded, from schools to clubs, to cricketing academies and to the money that comes into the system. Economy collapsed more than it has ever done before - this in turn affected everything in Pakistan.
This is just the age group impact I’m talking about. The shift to UAE is also worth considering.
I have a number of factors
1) t-20 cricket destroyed techniques and increase greed! Why do you want to kill yourself playing 4-5 days when your can play a short t-20. PCB really need to look into a better financial incentive for the longer format of the game, I personally think to get an A contract you must be playing test cricket and massively increasing match fees for test match and 4 day domestic games.
2) lack of merit though the system , it’s easy just to talk about national team but we as memebrrs of this forum have seen countless kids playing under 19 cricket who are top performers either not being picked at all or ignored by national selectors.
3) lack of club cricket is killing us , your onky going to improve the make you play
4) we can not seem to groom bowlers or batsman , how comes bowlers are fantastic when they first come on to the scen but then some how fizzle out ? Batsman come in make runs get found and never fix the technical issues?
5) death of reverse swing ,,,, ok I understand with covid protocols we can’t achieve this now , but I can’t remember in last 5 years were I saw someone really reversing it ?
6) hiring coaches just because what they did as players , being a great player does not make you a great coach , any coach before be hired for Pakistan or domestic side should have a certain amount of experience and prove himself at the junior levels.
7) lack of sports science , it’s massive in the workd of sports but we seem to be stuck in the 90’s, the whole world is moving forward and we are going nowhere , it’s actually an unfair fight , I never thought would see the day Indian pacers were bowling faster then Pakistani bowlers . But India have adopted sports science and analytics we are a decade behind most the teams in the world
1) t-20 cricket destroyed techniques and increase greed! Why do you want to kill yourself playing 4-5 days when your can play a short t-20. PCB really need to look into a better financial incentive for the longer format of the game, I personally think to get an A contract you must be playing test cricket and massively increasing match fees for test match and 4 day domestic games.
2) lack of merit though the system , it’s easy just to talk about national team but we as memebrrs of this forum have seen countless kids playing under 19 cricket who are top performers either not being picked at all or ignored by national selectors.
3) lack of club cricket is killing us , your onky going to improve the make you play
4) we can not seem to groom bowlers or batsman , how comes bowlers are fantastic when they first come on to the scen but then some how fizzle out ? Batsman come in make runs get found and never fix the technical issues?
5) death of reverse swing ,,,, ok I understand with covid protocols we can’t achieve this now , but I can’t remember in last 5 years were I saw someone really reversing it ?
6) hiring coaches just because what they did as players , being a great player does not make you a great coach , any coach before be hired for Pakistan or domestic side should have a certain amount of experience and prove himself at the junior levels.
7) lack of sports science , it’s massive in the workd of sports but we seem to be stuck in the 90’s, the whole world is moving forward and we are going nowhere , it’s actually an unfair fight , I never thought would see the day Indian pacers were bowling faster then Pakistani bowlers . But India have adopted sports science and analytics we are a decade behind most the teams in the world
Mamoon
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The decline started in the mid 90s. Pakistan was a poor Test team and lost 4 Test series at home.
Great teams don’t lose at home.
Great teams don’t lose at home.
Heisenberg111
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Still, the 3rd best team of the 90's behind only Australia and South Africa, both of whom were great sides.
Mamoon
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Most other sides were weak too. England were awful, India were poor and New Zealand was weak as well.
Heisenberg111
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India were far from poor. Strongest home team after Australia in the 90's.
Mamoon
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India of 2000s and 2010s were much stronger than 90s India and Pakistan.
Heisenberg111
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India of 2010's maybe they have a better W/L ratio (1.9) than 90's Pakistan (W/L ratio of 1.53). 2000's India has an inferior W/L ratio though than Pak of 90's.
Mamoon
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2000’s India was the only side that stood up to the legendary Australians. 90’s Pakistan couldn’t even beat 1998 version of Australia, the same team that lost in India and Sri Lanka in 1996-1997.
Pakistan couldn’t even capitalize on the extremely biased home umpiring. That series was one of the major reasons why ICC pushed towards two neutral umpires in Test cricket instead of one.
shah_1
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Pakistan and India in 2000s test matches record 3-3 with Danish Kaneria as a spinner, imagine peak Saqlain bowling to them
If they couldn't beat 2000s Pakistan comprehensively then they wouldn't beat 90s Pakistan.
JibranAnsari
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That God pakistan didnt play india in the last decade in test matches , there would been a lot of whitewashes.
ishtiaq_ctg
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Ball tempering helped 90's Pakistan massively. Apart from Wasim, Pakistan had no good new ball bowler throughout the 90's(Shoaib emerged late in the decade). Waqar waited for the ball to get old and start doing his magic. They also had a fragile batting lineup unlike the 80's. 90's was the decade where Pakistan started to fall behind others. Ball tempering and chucking actually are culprits of Pakistani cricket. Because of these two factors Pakistan couldn't realize their shortcomings and by the time tempering & chucking went out of the game, Pakistan where left behind by the rest of the world.
Mamoon
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Pakistan’s 2000s team is actually very underrated because everyone is in love with the the 90’s bowling attack.
The 2000s middle-order of Younis, Yousuf and Inzamam was far superior than the 90s batting lineup with Ijaz, Inzamam and a past his prime Saleem Malik.
Our middle-order from 2005 to 2007 was probably our strongest ever.
Kamran in the 2000s was a much better batsman than Moin and Latif.
Pace attack was weaker though, but Asif was brilliant and a better Test bowler than Waqar unless the latter was bowling with balls tampered with bottle caps.
90s Pakistan would not have matched 2000s Pakistan’s performance against India in the 2005 and 2006 Test series.
2000's India would be thrashed in their own den by 90's Pakistan just like they got thrashed in 99.
Mamoon
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Yeah sure.
Heisenberg111
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2000's Pak had a better middle order, but 90's Pak had better openers (Anwar and Sohail), better spinners ( Saqi and Mushi) and better fast bowlers(Wasim, Waqar). So overall there is no doubt that 90's Pak is much superior to 2000's Pak.
There’s no need for speculation of what the pak 90s team would have done to 2000s India. They did it in 99.
The 2000s Indian team was no better than the Indian 99 team. They had Tendi at his best (just he choked, but that was his hallmark throughout his career), ganguly, Dravid, Laxman. India also had a much better bowling attack in the 90s with srinath and the fast spinners (kumble and prasad)
Pakistan themselves were not at full strength in the first couple of tests in 99. Waqar well past it, and as good as saqi was, mushy as test bowler was even better in his prime years in the early/mid 90s.
And even then Pakistan beat them easily in the only test series and constantly smashed them in ODIs
The 2000s Indian team was no better than the Indian 99 team. They had Tendi at his best (just he choked, but that was his hallmark throughout his career), ganguly, Dravid, Laxman. India also had a much better bowling attack in the 90s with srinath and the fast spinners (kumble and prasad)
Pakistan themselves were not at full strength in the first couple of tests in 99. Waqar well past it, and as good as saqi was, mushy as test bowler was even better in his prime years in the early/mid 90s.
And even then Pakistan beat them easily in the only test series and constantly smashed them in ODIs
Mamoon
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Asif > Waqar
Aamer Sohail was average. He only scored 5 tons in Test career and was mostly carried by Saeed Anwar. Without Saeed Anwar, Sohail would have had a short career. He is the most overrated 90s Pakistani Test cricketer. He played some quality knocks every now and then but was too inconsistent to be considered a quality opener.
Not to mention he lost a home series to Zimbabwe with his terrible captaincy.
Saqlain as a Test spinner was not much better than Kaneria, who is actually very underrated on this forum and doesn’t get the credit he deserves for taking more Test wickets than anyone not named Wasim, Waqar and Imran. He certainly travelled better than Saqlain.
Saqlain was really good against India and Mushtaq Ahmed was better than Kaneria, but Kaneria would have much better figures if he was bowling to a keeper like Latif.
Saeed and Wasim are basically the only two players from the mid to late 90s Pakistan that are massive upgrades on their counterparts from the Inzamam-Woolmer era.
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Last Monetarist
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They only managed to draw the test series.
Heisenberg111
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Saqlain actually has a very good record outside Asia. Troubled the Aussies in the 1999 series in Aus. Won Pakistan the Old Trafford test in 2001. And Mushi was a beast outside Asia too, he literally won Pakistan matches everywhere in Sydney in 95, Christchurch 95, Oval 96, Durban 98. Kaneria is much inferior to both these spinners.
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Heisenberg111
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Maybe he is including the 3rd test in Calcutta which was part of the Asian test championship.
Everyone saw the decider of that series as the Calcutta test in ATC where pak thrashed India much to the dismay of their fans who (not for the first time in that decade) disrupted the game and were thrown out.
Yup, it was the second instance of crowd trouble in Kolkata after the 1996 WC semi final.
Exactly!!! Waqar crumbled under pressure (A bowling machine with pre-defined intellect) where Asif knew how to come back after a bad spell.
Both Ajmal and Saqlain were thinking type of bowlers.
What we meant that Waqar is like a per-programmed bowling machine.He is very good when weather/pitch supported him or batsmen scared of him. He failed miserably when either pitch/weather not-friendly or batsmen are attacking. He couldn't adjust his bowling according to the situation.
To suggest Waqar was only successful in the 90s due to bottle tops is a joke.
He was still bowling inswinging yorkers in the early 2000s and taking wickets with them. Obviously not as effective at 82-84mph than 95mph, but you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. I try not to state the obvious when possible, but it seems it’s required for amateur minds - Waqar was not as destructive because he lost his extreme pace!
And even in the early 90s he had many spells where he got wickets before the ball got old - e.g the 5fer he got at the Oval 92. 4 of those wickets where he ripped out the top order, had nothing to do with reverse swing and inswinging yorkers. He also bowled spells vs the powerful West Indies lineup in the 1993 test series where he got lots of wickets before the ball started reversing
We may have issues with Waqar the coach who is useless, but let’s not try to rewrite history about him as a player.
Asif was a better new ball bowler, we all know that - again not earth shattering news. And yes he was a more intelligent bowler, but he needed to be at his pace. Every bowler has different strengths and weaknesses
He was still bowling inswinging yorkers in the early 2000s and taking wickets with them. Obviously not as effective at 82-84mph than 95mph, but you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. I try not to state the obvious when possible, but it seems it’s required for amateur minds - Waqar was not as destructive because he lost his extreme pace!
And even in the early 90s he had many spells where he got wickets before the ball got old - e.g the 5fer he got at the Oval 92. 4 of those wickets where he ripped out the top order, had nothing to do with reverse swing and inswinging yorkers. He also bowled spells vs the powerful West Indies lineup in the 1993 test series where he got lots of wickets before the ball started reversing
We may have issues with Waqar the coach who is useless, but let’s not try to rewrite history about him as a player.
Asif was a better new ball bowler, we all know that - again not earth shattering news. And yes he was a more intelligent bowler, but he needed to be at his pace. Every bowler has different strengths and weaknesses
Asif lived for three years, therefore he didn’t face the decline. If it take WYs first (best) 5 years - he reached 170+’ wickets in around 35 Tests (or may be earlier with few washed out Tests included), at <20 average, <38 SR and a mind blowing 18-19 5fors. At times, he & Syd Barnes were only fast bowlers to have a better than 2:1 5for:Test ratio for 25+ Tests.
Absolutely irresistible bowler who could clean a top order in one spell (& no, not only with old ball - he was unplayable with old ball, but MUCH better than this guy Naseem with new ball as well, much, much better). It’s unfortunate that injury & age cheating limited his durability and 1997-8 was his last peak, but between 1990-1993, he was the most devastating fast bowler one could imagine.
Absolutely irresistible bowler who could clean a top order in one spell (& no, not only with old ball - he was unplayable with old ball, but MUCH better than this guy Naseem with new ball as well, much, much better). It’s unfortunate that injury & age cheating limited his durability and 1997-8 was his last peak, but between 1990-1993, he was the most devastating fast bowler one could imagine.
India was ranked #1 in Test cricket for over a year back in 1973/74.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICC_Test_Championship#Historical_rankings
iniqbal223
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Misbah supporters will curse me :
But as Pakistan-American , and following cricket for more than 3 decades; Never in my lifetime , I have seen Pakistan team as useless , boring, NO -result when Misbah (captain/coach) and Waqar are around.. Have a look from 2007 WC exit onwards
1) 2007 WT20 Final
2) 2009 Champion
3) 2009 CT SF
4) 2011 WC SF
-- When Misbah Became captain, in some instances when Waqar was coach
5) 2012 T20 WC (Misbah was not there)
6) 2013 CT (1st round exit)
7) 2014 Second round exit (though Misbah was not there)
8) 2015 WC (some how reached QF and exit)
9) 2016 WT20 (1st round exit, thanks to Waqar)
---
And as soon as Misbah left, we became exciting team in 2017-2019 (though we missed 2019 SF WC by a little margin , a point we lost to SL as a draw)
-------
Domestic system revamp is broader plan and should be judged after years.. But same argument can not be said for coaches / selectors (ok one need 2/3 series to get adjusted , but here for Misbah & Waqar who knew everything in and out as they were with the team before,,, if we are still losing that means their strategies, planning, and coaching is all useless)
Misbahs UAE achievements were mostly eyewash because of Ajmal's action & Younis Khan's (heroic series vs Australia in UAE) & Nasir Jamshed's batting vs India
Apart from here three key players, what Misbah's tenure achieved....ghiven he was leading the team for 6+ years
I might not blame PCB here, they wanted to introduce Coach + Selector role for an individual, but MISBAH threw that opportunity away because of incompetence
ishtiaq_ctg
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When did the winning mergin of 10 & 20 runs became a thrashing?
ishtiaq_ctg
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Even during his peak, He failed against West Indies and Australia; the two best side of his peak.
ishtiaq_ctg
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2000's Pakistan had a superior batting compared to the 90's. the greatest Pakistani middle order along with the goat pakistani keeper batsman. Salman Butt would also be picked ahead of sohail who was bang average.
Yes of course vs West Indies his record in his peak years - 6 tests, 35 wickets, 3 5fers, Ave 19.42 and S/R 32.2
What a failure!
Imran can't stand over the people running Pakistan cricket and those that they employ.
Despite the supposed professionalism being brought in at the PCB, there are still many people who are doing nothing or very little.
In fact just yesterday I was speaking with someone brought in by the PCB recently and he has been shocked at the lack of professionalism and responsibility within PCB.
Despite the supposed professionalism being brought in at the PCB, there are still many people who are doing nothing or very little.
In fact just yesterday I was speaking with someone brought in by the PCB recently and he has been shocked at the lack of professionalism and responsibility within PCB.
jupiter2007
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Current Cricket setup is much better than before and it will take times to fix issues.
Quaid-e-Azam Trophy (SIX association, Six Teams, first-class, four-day matches)
Quaid-e-Azam Trophy (2nd XI, three-day matches
National T20 Cup ( Six Teams, both first and second XIs will play at the same time
Pakistan Cup One-Day Tournament (SiX Teams, both first and second XIs will play simultaneousl
National U-19 tournament (three-day and one-day tournament)
Its not just six teams, there are Six associations and 12 teams. Whole point is to make domestic cricket more competitive. Whats missing is club cricket and school/college cricket competitions. Once we have it with proper coaches and training stuff, it will improve our cricket significantly.
Savak
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Habib Bank Limited was a govt run bank for a good 30 years before Agha Khan foundation acquired a 51% stake in it in 2004. Even then the new private sector management could not undo the culture of corruption, nepotism, political interference which existed in the organization for a good 30 years and neither could they do a bloodbath where they wiped out all the old bankers because inspite of their old style philosophy, govt job attitudes, lack of innovation, some of them still had very useful, important experience which could not be shoved aside and the new generation of bankers could not replicate immediately.
The private sector management decided to adopt a patient gradual approach where the important old banking employees would be phased out after retirement and now in 2020 vast majority of old bankers have gone and replaced by new generations of more hungrier, innovative, out of the box thinking managers and you have a more performance driven work environment where if you don't perform you make way for someone else who does. The old culture where you will keep your job for a good ten twenty years regardless of performance or performance appraisal no longer exists.
I believe that a similar thing will happen at the PCB. The likes of Ehsan Mani, Wasim Khan are taking a more patient, gradual approach to things where they have bought in new people, where they are keeping some old people but they are not committing a mass bloodbath to spread panic either
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Shoaib Malik asked the same question:
"When Imran Khan became the PM, the country was in a state where there were other pressing problems apart from what was happening in sports; A lot of people felt that as an athlete, Imran Khan will come to power and improve the area of sports immediately - this is how a common man would think but in my view, there are bigger issues to resolve than just sports in Pakistan"
"PM Imran Khan did take some good decisions though, as he brought in Wasim Khan to improve Pakistan cricket; This was a very good decision and I feel that better things can happen if he is given full authority to do as he wishes"
"When Imran Khan became the PM, the country was in a state where there were other pressing problems apart from what was happening in sports; A lot of people felt that as an athlete, Imran Khan will come to power and improve the area of sports immediately - this is how a common man would think but in my view, there are bigger issues to resolve than just sports in Pakistan"
"PM Imran Khan did take some good decisions though, as he brought in Wasim Khan to improve Pakistan cricket; This was a very good decision and I feel that better things can happen if he is given full authority to do as he wishes"
OMB
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After PM Imran Khans talk with PM Arden, there have been strangely no news from his office on this subject.
I would think that the PM office should be visible in exerting pressure on New Zealand or England to tour Pakistan if nothing else than to gain electorally.
I would think that the PM office should be visible in exerting pressure on New Zealand or England to tour Pakistan if nothing else than to gain electorally.
iniqbal223
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IK trusted Wasim Akram & Misbah in and out
Both messed up our cricket in last 2 years..
Both messed up our cricket in last 2 years..
Cric_lover4487
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I am an Indian so please don't take me in wrong way but is it a good idea to follow Australian system? Australia is a major sporting nation who is always among top 6 in Olympics. Cricket is not even the most popular sport there. I am not even comparing the massive population difference. Kids have tons of options to choose in Australia if they want to pursue a career in sports. Tell me if a teenager doesn't get selected to play in these 6 teams what are the options for him in Pakistan? Pack you bags, go back, study and become doctor/engineer. Shouldn't Pak govt. aspire to provide sporting opportunities for maximum percentage of population rather than limiting it to few privileged people?
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