Why has no Pakistani spinner ever taken 300 Test wickets?

[JibranAnsari]

At one time it looked like Yasir Shah would go on to take 300 wickets but looks like it won't be materialised. Pakistani spinners just run out of gas once they pass 200 mark. Saqlain mushtaq looked good for a lot more wickets but lost his zip and effectiveness post 2003 , relied heavily on his doosra and lost his stock ball. Kaneria probably lost 40 wickets to the catches dropped by Kamran akmal and others.

 

[Mamoon]

They are older than their official ages. Yasir is probably 36-37 not 33.

 

[King_Kohli]

Saqlain Mushtaq retired early, he would have continue few more years

 

[Mercurial]

Shadab has the potential to be the first one provided he is given a consistent run. I think this should be last series for Yasir Shah.

 

[in_cutter]

Shadab has the potential to be the first one provided he is given a consistent run. I think this should be last series for Yasir Shah.

Shadab is nowhere near the bowler he was when he first came on the scene. Lacks variations.

 

[Mamoon]

Shadab has the potential to be the first one provided he is given a consistent run. I think this should be last series for Yasir Shah.

I agree, he will take 300 Test wickets after playing 200 Test matches.

 

[Ab Fan]

They get exposed after a certain period of time.

Hence also the reason why I rate Kumble superior to Qadir, Saqlain, Yasir or anyone.

 

[AFM]

Old age + Few Tests.

The only Pakistani bowlers to have got 300+ Test wickets have been ATG's - Imran, Wasim & Waqar.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

They get exposed after a certain period of time.

Hence also the reason why I rate Kumble superior to Qadir, Saqlain, Yasir or anyone.

Lol what a joke. Rating Kumble higher than Saqlain or Yasir is understandable but calling him superior to Qadir is absolutely hilarious. Qadir inspired a generation of leg-spinners including Shane Warne. He was a magician and no amount of stats or wickets need to quantify that. By comparison, Kumble (barely a spinner in the first place) thrived on discipline and was far from a magician. He was a great bowler no doubt but comparing him to Qadir is simply a joke.

 

[shortbread]

Both the captain and keeper play a big role in a spinners success. The team has always struggled with the former, latter - less said the better!

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Pakistani spinners become obsessed with speed and variations and it affects their bowling. They try to bowl like fast bowlers an lose their fundamentals - stock ball, flight, accuracy etc.

 

[Sir-fraz]

They are older than their official ages. Yasir is probably 36-37 not 33.

Yea it clearly shows. His decline has been massive. Real ages need to be made mandatory by PCB. If a fake age is entered they should be banned for life to set a precedent.

 

[Hitman]

It's an absolute shame that someone like Saqlain didn't play cricket after the age of 29.

 

[Titan24]

It's an absolute shame that someone like Saqlain didn't play cricket after the age of 29.

Shoulder problems troubled him most of his career and post 29 it wasnt manageable for him.

 

[Titan24]

I think in modern cricket all the highest wicket takers have been finger spinners in tests Yasir was an exception but excelled on limited type of conditions.

Pak needs to find a young finger spinner or someone who can provide something with the bat as well as controlled, economical bowling with some value with bat can provide consistent selection across the countries and a longer career.

 

[Sidilicious]

Too much of mystery and doosra nonsense.

Spin + drift + dip + outthinking the batsman is all you need. Graeme Swann is a perfect example of sticking to the basics by doing the above.

Kumble didn’t spin the ball enough, but had all 3 above + skid the ball and outfoxed them.

 

[Rana]

They draft them in too late. It’s like a Pakistani spinner has to toil 10-13 years in domestics before he is considered for the country.

Chuck this Umer Khan guy in and just make him bowl one line and length all day. He will take 5-7 wickets per match and by the age of 35 he would have 350 test wickets

 

[Mamoon]

It's an absolute shame that someone like Saqlain didn't play cricket after the age of 29.

He wasn’t 29. He was at least 32-33 in 2004.

Saqlain, Waqar and Razzaq were all massive age-fudgers.

 

[Rana]

Fitness is key as well. Looking at the physical form, fielding and match awareness of some reputable Pakistan spinners recently...

Danish Kaneria
Saeed Ajmal
Zulfiqar Babar
Yasir Shah
Going a bit further back,
Mushtaq Ahmed

These are good spinners and are 400+ wicket calibre but they all look like they work in Kebab shops with their fitness standard, height and mannerisms. I’m being quite blunt and rude here but I can’t remember the last time Pakistan actually had a proper, lean spinner. Surely a person who cares about his athleticism is much more likely to play a longer career than a guy who’s going to drop the odd catch and just gets injured every now and then, but is apparently a deadly spinner.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Poor fitness, complacency, not improving as bowlers once they have been playing all teams regularly.

All pakistan spinners have had short shelf lifes as they stopped improving a point where it was required for them to step up their game.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Leg spin is hard work. You are more likely to hurt your shoulders with leg spin than finger spin. Kuldeep is going through that exactly. Shane warne had his share of shoulder injury. Kumble was a unique bowler. Not a side spinner. That is why he lasted longer. Even 16 year old leg spinner can trouble world no.1 batsman if he lands the ball right and spins. India's under-19 Bishnoi lands better than Yasir Shah.

 

[Buffet]

Lol what a joke. Rating Kumble higher than Saqlain or Yasir is understandable but calling him superior to Qadir is absolutely hilarious. Qadir inspired a generation of leg-spinners including Shane Warne. He was a magician and no amount of stats or wickets need to quantify that. By comparison, Kumble (barely a spinner in the first place) thrived on discipline and was far from a magician. He was a great bowler no doubt but comparing him to Qadir is simply a joke.

Many average performers have inspired younger players, but that hardly makes them top performers.

Qadir has 68 wickets in 43 innings at average of 47-48 when not playing in Pakistan. That's a horrible performance by any account. His perfoance was very good when playing at home.

 

[Buffet]

How many spinners have taken 300 wickets?

I think most spinners with 300+ wickets will be from SC, but Pakistani tracks are least turning among all Asian tracks. That could be one reason for no Pakistani spinners to get to 300+ wickets otherwise Pakistan has produced many gun spinners.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Many average performers have inspired younger players, but that hardly makes them top performers.

Qadir has 68 wickets in 43 innings at average of 47-48 when not playing in Pakistan. That's a horrible performance by any account. His perfoance was very good when playing at home.

He is one guy i don't rate much. Poor bowler against most of the sides.

 

[Bhaijaan]

They haven't been good enough.

In order to take 300+ test wickets as a spinner you to be really great. As good as Kumble, Harbhajan, Ashwin etc

 

[Bullet Drive]

Usama Mir.

Best spinner in Pakistan.

 

[jnaveen1980]

This guy doesn't even play in the IPL or limited overs to lose rhythm. You could say that about Ashwin who played in every goddamn format including IPL. Last season he even captained the IPL side. This is definitely a free fall for him.

 

[Bullet Drive]

Usama is definitely the best.

 

[Ab Fan]

Lol what a joke. Rating Kumble higher than Saqlain or Yasir is understandable but calling him superior to Qadir is absolutely hilarious. Qadir inspired a generation of leg-spinners including Shane Warne. He was a magician and no amount of stats or wickets need to quantify that. By comparison, Kumble (barely a spinner in the first place) thrived on discipline and was far from a magician. He was a great bowler no doubt but comparing him to Qadir is simply a joke.

The usual non sense stuff, lol. Ashwin has more variations than Kumble, doesnt make Ashwin better than Kumble.

de Villiers has more wide array of shots, doesn't make him better than Kallis.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

The usual non sense stuff, lol. Ashwin has more variations than Kumble, doesnt make Ashwin better than Kumble.

de Villiers has more wide array of shots, doesn't make him better than Kallis.

and why exactly is kumble better than ashwin.
better away record -ashwin
better home record-ashwin
better average
better str rate
etc etc etc.
Longevity is the only thing in kumbles favour.

 

[Saj]

Saqlain, burnout due to County cricket.

Kaneria, involved in extra-curricular activities.

Also, many Pakistani spinners don't come into Test cricket until later stages of their career.

 

[jnaveen1980]

and why exactly is kumble better than ashwin.
better away record -ashwin
better home record-ashwin
better average
better str rate
etc etc etc.
Longevity is the only thing in kumbles favour.

Exactly lol Between 1992 and 1996 Indian think tank comprising of Azharuddin and Wadekar nfluenced curators to come up with horrible dust bowls. Kumble had the huge advantage of playing against horrible England, Zimbabwe, Srilanka. Ashwin's wickets mostly came on good cricketing wickets.

 

[sindhiboy]

because pakistan ignore spinners like mohammad asghar, zafar gohar

 

[pratiktc]

Fitness is key as well. Looking at the physical form, fielding and match awareness of some reputable Pakistan spinners recently...

Danish Kaneria
Saeed Ajmal
Zulfiqar Babar
Yasir Shah
Going a bit further back,
Mushtaq Ahmed

These are good spinners and are 400+ wicket calibre but they all look like they work in Kebab shops with their fitness standard, height and mannerisms. I’m being quite blunt and rude here but I can’t remember the last time Pakistan actually had a proper, lean spinner. Surely a person who cares about his athleticism is much more likely to play a longer career than a guy who’s going to drop the odd catch and just gets injured every now and then, but is apparently a deadly spinner.

Fittest Pak spinners have been Malik sahib and Hafeez sahib!

 

[troodon]

Pak spinners are just fillers. The lion share of wickets are shared by

 

[Ab Fan]

and why exactly is kumble better than ashwin.
better away record -ashwin
better home record-ashwin
better average
better str rate
etc etc etc.
Longevity is the only thing in kumbles favour.

1) Ashwin had luxury of playing on a lot more rank turners than Kumble.
2) Ashwin in SENA doesn't make it to Indian team ahead of the darter Jadeja while Kumble was always the first pick, he had several quality performances in SENA country. Ashwin had a great chance to win his team a match in England on a dry wicket but he bowled terribly that day which eventually led to India costing a game.
3) Ashwin has better average because he is playing in a very weak spin playing era. Sri Lanka of 2000s were so far ahead of 10s that it's not even funny.

Kumble is a better test bowler without any shadow of doubt. No stats or home bashing will change that.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

1) Ashwin had luxury of playing on a lot more rank turners than Kumble.
No you are wrong here,during 90s indian pitches used to be dustbowls and kumble benefitted heavily
2) Ashwin in SENA doesn't make it to Indian team ahead of the darter Jadeja while Kumble was always the first pick, he had several quality performances in SENA country. Ashwin had a great chance to win his team a match in England on a dry wicket but he bowled terribly that day which eventually led to India costing a game.
Kumble has very ordinary figures in SENA and even though ashwin's stats arent great they are better than kumble,Secondly Ashwin won us the first match at adelaide in 2018 tour of aus,so its not like he has no memorable performances.Ashwin is our first choice spinner in SENA not jadeja ,jadeja only plays if ashwin is not fit.Secondly Jadeja is not some gully mohallah level player he is also a world class allrounder and india had no one like him when kumble played.

3) Ashwin has better average because he is playing in a very weak spin playing era. Sri Lanka of 2000s were so far ahead of 10s that it's not even funny.
Please check kumble's average in srilanka,let alone SENA kumble has mediocre stats even in srilanka and pakistan ,so its not like he wrecked havoc against that srilankan team.He was average against teams having good players of spin

Kumble is a better test bowler without any shadow of doubt. No stats or home bashing will change that.
Kumble was a bigger home basher than ashwin .Ashwin is a better bowler than kumble,no amount of nostalgia will change that.

.

 

[Ab Fan]

.

Nope..Kumble is a better bowler than Ashwin and it was proven long back when Ashwin was pivotal in losing games in SENA. We can agree to disagree but I have seen enough of Ashwin in SENA to conclude this. Not even 1 fifer in SENA tells us all we have to know.

 

[Mobashir]

He wasn’t 29. He was at least 32-33 in 2004.

Saqlain, Waqar and Razzaq were all massive age-fudgers.

32-33 isn't too much for an offie so there is no point repeating the same thing again and again! Saqlain's career was cut short for no other reason than injuries.
But even then he is probably the best ever ODI spinner.

 

[Mamoon]

32-33 isn't too much for an offie so there is no point repeating the same thing again and again! Saqlain's career was cut short for no other reason than injuries.
But even then he is probably the best ever ODI spinner.

His career was cut short because of injuries but he wasn’t young enough to recover. When you get serious injuries at 32-33, your career is pretty much over.

 

[Mercurial]

The other spinner we should invest in is Sajid Khan. He is an off-spinner, had an impressive 2019 FC season, can bat too. It would be unfair not to give him a go.

 

[Savak]

Saqlain, burnout due to County cricket.

Kaneria, involved in extra-curricular activities.

Also, many Pakistani spinners don't come into Test cricket until later stages of their career.

Saqi didn't develop new tricks, batsmen eventually got used to him and began to understand and pick easily when he would bowl a doosra and when his regular off spinner, batsmen were able to figure out he couldn't bowl his Doosra as fast as his regular offspinner, also his knee injuries which he chose to ignore via pain killing injections meant that his ability to get massive spin, loop, flight on the ball suffered. Murlitharan on the other hand kept developing new skills which is why he ended up lasting longer and picking 400 more wickets.

It is even more vital for spinners to keep developing new skills, tactics, variations, field placements because batsmen via video analysis eventually figure you out. Nathan Lyon is very intelligent in this regard, he doesn't have a doosra but he has a brain, he knows how much turn he gets on the ball, he has developed the around the wicket tactic of stacking the leg side field with a leg slip, bat pad, fielders on the off side and is relentlessly targetting the right hander for an lbw from around the wicket or a catch at bat pad and leg slip and eventually the batsmen will make a mistake. These are the skills which Saqlain needed to develop, he had much more talent than Nathan Lyon but unfortunately as is very common amongst our cricketing fraternity, they just blindly rely on their natural gifts and don't really apply a scientific approach to the game which will ensure long term success.

 

[Bewal Express]

Saqlain, burnout due to County cricket.

Kaneria, involved in extra-curricular activities.

Also, many Pakistani spinners don't come into Test cricket until later stages of their career.

I saw Saqlain at a cricketing promotions event in 2002 and I spoke to him about his Doosra and as he was showing how he bowled it, I noticed his spinning finger, and it looked like it had been crushed in the door. He told me that he had bowled 50 overs in a county game against Warwickshire in the previous game.

 

[Junaids]

Saqlain Mushtaq retired early, he would have continue few more years

Do you really believe his age? Or Yasir Shah's?

Supposedly Saqlain Mushtaq debuted at the age of 18 (ROFL) and played 49 Tests, finishing up at the age of 27 years and 3 months.

It's so ludicrous that it truly defies belief.

If you believe that, his incident at Club 69 in Johannesburg which forced a Test match to be delayed by a day occurred when he was just 21 years and 1 month old.

It's possible to believe in the Tooth Fairy. It's possible to believe that Nigerian and Ghanaian footballers are all world class at 16, peak at 20 and are in decline by 23 and retired by the age of 27 (See Messrs Babayaro, Amokachi, Lamptey et al).

By the same token, players like Aaqib Javed and Waqar Younis and Saqlain Mushtaq aren't age cheats, they just prematurely go into age-related decline by the age of 24 or 25.

I know what I think.

I suspect that Saqlain Mushtaq was at least 23 when he emerged at the age of "18" in mid-1995.

He was a great ODI bowler, but in Tests he was completely dependent upon the rough created outside the right-handers' off-stump by Wasim Akram bowling over the wicket.

By the year 2000, Wasim Akram was semi-retired and in his mid-30's. And Saqlain Mushtaq was officially 23 but presumably closer to 30.

Suddenly there was no rough to bowl into, and Saqlain only took a total of 74 more Test wickets after the official age of 24.

 

[MenInG]

Does Yasir Shah have that chance?

 

[umerz]

Saqlain, Kaneria and Ajmal could have crossed this mark however all of them came to an abrupt end due to varying reasons. Yasir Shah should be able to cross it

 

[umerz]

Does Yasir Shah have that chance?

If he plays for 2-3 years he should be able to cross it. It is unfortunate that Pakistan plays such low number of test matches since forever otherwise Javed Mianded, Inzamam, Wasim and Waqar would have been much higher on overall stats

 

[Ab Fan]

Lol what a joke. Rating Kumble higher than Saqlain or Yasir is understandable but calling him superior to Qadir is absolutely hilarious. Qadir inspired a generation of leg-spinners including Shane Warne. He was a magician and no amount of stats or wickets need to quantify that. By comparison, Kumble (barely a spinner in the first place) thrived on discipline and was far from a magician. He was a great bowler no doubt but comparing him to Qadir is simply a joke.

Qadir is a joke with an away average of 50. Saqlain is the best Pak spinner ever and at its peak by a landslide. Comparing Saqlain to Kumble makes a lot more sense than comparing with Qadir.

Say it nostalgia or whatever, in last 50 years, the four best spinners are from same generation.

Warne
Murali
Kumble
Saqlain

 

[Major]

Pakistan has had spin talent. In the past, as one spinner would get to play, many would have to wait for their chance.
Thus, as soon as a one spinner has a bad series or two, he gets dropped and replaced by another equally good spinner.

Danish Kaneria got replaced by a better spinner who was Ajmal. Danish kaneria maybe would had gotten 300 later on if he was not banned.

With Danish's ban, another spinners spot opened up and Abdur Rehman got the chance.

Now, at one point in their careers, Rehman was bowling better than Ajmal. Misbah had droped ajmal for rehman in some games.

Anyways, Ajmal got better.

When ICC decided to take action against chuckers, Ajmal's career stopped. He was clearly chucking.

Abdur Rehman was taking drugs and that ruined his fitness.

Zulfiqar babar came into the show very late, and he was going through the same patch that Yasir was going. Not being able to take wickets. Evetually he was also dropped too.

Yasir Shah isn't far behind. I think [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION] posted a stat where he is the highest wicket taaker after 40 games. You have to be realistic and see where other stood after that many games.
Yasir hasn't dipped in wicket taking, he is going well. He might get to 300 in a year or two

 

[MenInG]

Yasir is on 217 wickets at the moment - so 83 more to get...

 

[ChTab]

Yasir had the potential. I think he played his 1st test for Pakistan at the age of 30. He should've been in the side after kaneria fixing. I know ajmal was there but during that time Pakistan played 2 spinners. Ajmal & Yasir 2 quality spinners. Yasir could've gotten 400 wickets.

 

[shady]

Qadir is a joke with an away average of 50. Saqlain is the best Pak spinner ever and at its peak by a landslide. Comparing Saqlain to Kumble makes a lot more sense than comparing with Qadir.

Say it nostalgia or whatever, in last 50 years, the four best spinners are from same generation.

Warne
Murali
Kumble
Saqlain

Everyone who played with and against Qadir and those who watched him all say he was a genius leg spinner. Richie Benaud rated him higher than any leg spinner bar Warne. His numbers might not be breathtaking but reducing sports to just numbers is a shame, there's a lot that you miss out on. Not to mention things like aesthetics and his sheer variety of deliveries. In terms of skill as a leg spinner he blows someone like Kumble away who didn't have nearly the same skill level. That Kumble has 600 wickets is a testament to him but that doesn't make him a better or more talented bowler than Qadir.

 

[Zaz]

Qadir is a joke with an away average of 50. Saqlain is the best Pak spinner ever and at its peak by a landslide. Comparing Saqlain to Kumble makes a lot more sense than comparing with Qadir.

Say it nostalgia or whatever, in last 50 years, the four best spinners are from same generation.

Warne
Murali
Kumble
Saqlain

Just a word of advice Dont judge everyone n everything by stats Stats dont provide the whole story Most old pros rate qadir as one of the best spinners ever So you saying qadir wasnt great is doing a great diservice to him