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Why have no Pakistani spinners reached 300 Test wickets?

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Abdullah719

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List of spinners who reached 300 Test wickets including 3 Indians.

[table=class:grid][tr][td]Player[/td][td]Mat[/td][td]Wkts[/td][td]BBI[/td][td]BBM[/td][td]Ave[/td][td]Econ[/td][td]SR[/td][td]5[/td][td]10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]M Muralitharan[/td][td]133[/td][td]800[/td][td]9/51[/td][td]16/220[/td][td]22.72[/td][td]2.47[/td][td]55.0[/td][td]67[/td][td]22[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SK Warne[/td][td]145[/td][td]708[/td][td]8/71[/td][td]12/128[/td][td]25.41[/td][td]2.65[/td][td]57.4[/td][td]37[/td][td]10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]A Kumble[/td][td]132[/td][td]619[/td][td]10/74[/td][td]14/149[/td][td]29.65[/td][td]2.69[/td][td]65.9[/td][td]35[/td][td]8[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HMRKB Herath[/td][td]93[/td][td]433[/td][td]9/127[/td][td]14/184[/td][td]28.07[/td][td]2.80[/td][td]60.0[/td][td]34[/td][td]9[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Harbhajan Singh[/td][td]103[/td][td]417[/td][td]8/84[/td][td]15/217[/td][td]32.46[/td][td]2.84[/td][td]68.5[/td][td]25[/td][td]5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]NM Lyon[/td][td]96[/td][td]390[/td][td]8/50[/td][td]13/154[/td][td]31.58[/td][td]3.00[/td][td]62.9[/td][td]18[/td][td]3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Ashwin[/td][td]71[/td][td]365[/td][td]7/59[/td][td]13/140[/td][td]25.43[/td][td]2.84[/td][td]53.6[/td][td]27[/td][td]7[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DL Vettori[/td][td]113[/td][td]362[/td][td]7/87[/td][td]12/149[/td][td]34.36[/td][td]2.59[/td][td]79.5[/td][td]20[/td][td]3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]LR Gibbs[/td][td]79[/td][td]309[/td][td]8/38[/td][td]11/157[/td][td]29.09[/td][td]1.98[/td][td]87.7[/td][td]18[/td][td]2[/td][/tr][/table]

Pakistan's top wicket-taking spinners:

[table=class:grid][tr][td]Player[/td][td]Mat[/td][td]Wkts[/td][td]BBI[/td][td]BBM[/td][td]Ave[/td][td]Econ[/td][td]SR[/td][td]5[/td][td]10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Danish Kaneria[/td][td]61[/td][td]261[/td][td]7/77[/td][td]12/94[/td][td]34.79[/td][td]3.07[/td][td]67.8[/td][td]15[/td][td]2[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Abdul Qadir[/td][td]67[/td][td]236[/td][td]9/56[/td][td]13/101[/td][td]32.80[/td][td]2.71[/td][td]72.5[/td][td]15[/td][td]5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Yasir Shah[/td][td]39[/td][td]213[/td][td]8/41[/td][td]14/184[/td][td]30.52[/td][td]3.19[/td][td]57.3[/td][td]16[/td][td]3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saqlain Mushtaq[/td][td]49[/td][td]208[/td][td]8/164[/td][td]10/155[/td][td]29.83[/td][td]2.64[/td][td]67.6[/td][td]13[/td][td]3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mushtaq Ahmed[/td][td]52[/td][td]185[/td][td]7/56[/td][td]10/106[/td][td]32.97[/td][td]2.92[/td][td]67.7[/td][td]10[/td][td]3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saeed Ajmal[/td][td]35[/td][td]178[/td][td]7/55[/td][td]11/111[/td][td]28.10[/td][td]2.58[/td][td]65.1[/td][td]10[/td][td]4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Iqbal Qasim[/td][td]50[/td][td]171[/td][td]7/49[/td][td]11/118[/td][td]28.11[/td][td]2.21[/td][td]76.1[/td][td]8[/td][td]2[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Intikhab Alam[/td][td]47[/td][td]125[/td][td]7/52[/td][td]11/130[/td][td]35.95[/td][td]2.57[/td][td]83.7[/td][td]5[/td][td]2[/td][/tr][/table]
 
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None of them have been good enough;
Sqlain got figured out
Qadir doesn’t take wickets overseas
Mushtaq was decent but not great
Shah gets smashed in unfavourable conditions
Ajmal got 178 run outs
 
Its obvious they never played enough matches,either through fitness or dubious selections.
 
You have to be good enough for a long period to pick 300 wickets.None of them were good enough for long period.

However, Saqlain at its best was Warne-Murali level bowler but unfortunately he had knee injury and because his fitness level was poor, he never really regained back his fitness.

But he is the only bowler to have attained the pedigree of dominating three of the greatest spin playing nations of all-time- India of late 90s-early 00s, Australia and Sri Lanka during same period.

In last 50 years,

1.Warne
2.Murali
3.Gap
4.Kumble, Saqlain
5.Bedi, Chandra, Underwood
6.Swann, MacGill
7.Herath, Ashwin
 
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Pakistan played less matches than other countries even before terroism and India stopped playing Pakistand forpolitic reasons. Pakstani ayers been deprived of home test matches for long time throughout their careers.
Danish K, Mushtaq M, Saeed A, Abdual Q, Yasir S all were capable for 300 wickets but as I said either through dubious selction,fitness and due to number ofmatches Pak played did notachieve their full potentials at their peak.
 
Pitches.

Pakistani pitches, the ones i saw through 1990s and 2000s weren't good for spin bowlers at all. Couple of tours to Pakistan has already dented career bowling averages of many Indian spinners.

Anyone who says Pakistani spinners were not good enough to take 300 test wickets has not analyzed this deeply enough or hasn't seen many Pakistani spinners. It is true India is ahead, but Pakistan is arguably the 2nd greatest spin bowling nation, ever. Should respect that.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
Pitches.

Pakistani pitches, the ones i saw through 1990s and 2000s weren't good for spin bowlers at all. Couple of tours to Pakistan has already dented career bowling averages of many Indian spinners.

Anyone who says Pakistani spinners were not good enough to take 300 test wickets has not analyzed this deeply enough or hasn't seen many Pakistani spinners. It is true India is ahead, but Pakistan is arguably the 2nd greatest spin bowling nation, ever. Should respect that.
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Factor #2,

Pakistan's obsession with fast bowling always meant spinners were reduced to scavengers rather than predators. Pakistani pacers dominated the wickets column with the new and the old reverse swinging ball.
 
If we look at their spinners, they have produced nobody of the quality of India, with Kumble, Bedi, Chandra, Ashwin, Prasanna etc and Aus, with Warne, O'Reilly, Grimmett, Benaud etc. These nations have produced the best spinners, followed by daylight, and no Pak spinner is greater than these 9 bowlers
 
therealAB said:
If we look at their spinners, they have produced nobody of the quality of India, with Kumble, Bedi, Chandra, Ashwin, Prasanna etc and Aus, with Warne, O'Reilly, Grimmett, Benaud etc. These nations have produced the best spinners, followed by daylight, and no Pak spinner is greater than these 9 bowlers
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Nathan Lyon is also right up there now.

He is one of the finest spinners of this generation.
 
therealAB said:
How did I miss him. shocking
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How can you include Lyon,Kumble, Ashwin( cant comment most others as they were before my viewing time except Warne and Murli) and leave out Qadir,Saqlain and Mushtaq. They may not have many wickets due to low test matches played but they were equally skillful.
 
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PakPremi said:
How can you include Lyon,Kumble, Ashwin( cant comment most others as they were before my viewing time except Warne and Murli) and leave out Qadir,Saqlain and Mushtaq. They may not have many wickets due to low test matches played but they were equally skillful.
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Mushtaq averaged 33, Qadir averaged 47 outside of Asia (most overrated bowler of all time) and Saqlain got completely found out, he didn't have the necessary skills to succeed past that.
Lyon has been the best spinner in the world in Australian conditions that all bowlers struggle on. While Kumble and Ashwin have generally been poor outside of home, their home records are just so dominant and they are generally able to at least keep it tight away from home unlike people like Qadir
 
freelance_cricketer said:
Factor #2,

Pakistan's obsession with fast bowling always meant spinners were reduced to scavengers rather than predators. Pakistani pacers dominated the wickets column with the new and the old reverse swinging ball.
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Is this true though?


Pakistan has had three spinners in the last 25 years to have 200+ wickets though.

No Pakistani fast bowler that has debuted since 1990 has taken 200+ wickets.
 
Indiafan said:
Is this true though?


Pakistan has had three spinners in the last 25 years to have 200+ wickets though.

No Pakistani fast bowler that has debuted since 1990 has taken 200+ wickets.
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Pakistani fast bowlers are a victim of drugs, boobytraps and honeytraps. Hence no longevity
 
Indiafan said:
Is this true though?


Pakistan has had three spinners in the last 25 years to have 200+ wickets though.

No Pakistani fast bowler that has debuted since 1990 has taken 200+ wickets.
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Pak has an obsession with fast bowlers. Is doesn't mean they necessarily produce many good ones
 
No spinner played for Pakistan long enough. That's the main reason.

Saqlain should have had 500 wickets.
 
No players played as many matches.

Saqlain could have had legendary figures but got injured and retired prematurely at a young age.

Kaneria- well we know what happened there.
 
It is to be noted that at his peak Danish Kaneria did outperform both Shane Warne (Warnie) and Anil Kumble (Brother Jumbo).
 
Injuries, sometimes debut too late in their career, controversies, fitness issues.

Just some of the reasons why no Pakistani spinner has 300 Test wickets.
 
therealAB said:
Mushtaq averaged 33, Qadir averaged 47 outside of Asia (most overrated bowler of all time) and Saqlain got completely found out, he didn't have the necessary skills to succeed past that.
Lyon has been the best spinner in the world in Australian conditions that all bowlers struggle on. While Kumble and Ashwin have generally been poor outside of home, their home records are just so dominant and they are generally able to at least keep it tight away from home unlike people like Qadir
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Lyon averaged almost 32 so hardly any difference in between the averages of two?
Saqlain was seriously injured amd played many tests u fit,he was badly treated by PCB.
Pak spinners did notbowl onrank turners like Indian spinners.
The only great spinners in my viewing time were Murli and Warne, others were all the same quality.
 
therealAB said:
got found out. Wouldn't have taken another 100 without injuries
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What rubbish Found out? What does that even mean

If it wasnt for injuries saqi wouldve easily got to 300 no problem
 
Maybe if pakistan played more tests and on rank turners like they do in india thered be 2-3 that wouldve broke 300
 
Because we play like no test matches it's a shame tbh, we should be playing a minimum of 10 tests a year imo. Add to that the fact that Pakistan's selection isn't always consistent, so we've never had a spinner play more than 67 test matches.

However, at the pace Yasir is going 213 wickets in only 39 matches I believe he will get there by about the 55 match landmark.

Remember when Yasir first debuted Shane Warne said he'll end up with 200+ Test Wickets, now at 34 I think being a spinner he's got a few more years in him and he'll end up with 300+ for sure.
 
ARK Rafay said:
Yasir Shah might reach it if he continues to play for the next 5 years
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5 years to pick up 87 wickets? Are you kidding me he's picked up 213 in the last 5 years and your saying he'll barely pick up 87 wickets in the next 5 years?
 
Zaz said:
Maybe if pakistan played more tests and on rank turners like they do in india thered be 2-3 that wouldve broke 300
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Oh for sure we'd have a couple spinners at 300+ if we played on those rank turners even with the low volume of test matches we play.
 
Saj said:
Injuries, sometimes debut too late in their career, controversies, fitness issues.

Just some of the reasons why no Pakistani spinner has 300 Test wickets.
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Saj you missed another thing that happens all the time with Pakistani cricketers..... age fudging to show how young they are when in reality they are not.... then in later age they cannot keep up their fitness but in reality 5 to 6 years older than their doctored age ......
 
There's many reasons from the lack of Test cricket compared to other nations, poor fitness leading to a lack of longevity, controversies, and in Saeed Ajmal's case having his very bowling action reported.

However I feel one of the biggest reasons is Pakistani spinners have forgotten the main skill all spinners ought to have - complete mastery of their stock ball. Saqlain for example became too reliant on the doosra which he overexposed playing so much white ball and county cricket. Batsmen played him like a legspinner. Saqlain's knees also eventually gave out.

Same goes for Mushtaq with his googly. Meanwhile Shane Warne never possessed a great googly but he always had that big turning legbreak that he could land on a penny around off-stump. Yes Warne had other variations but he always could fall back on his stock delivery, and was brilliant at setting up a batsman as opposed to showing off six different deliveries in an over.

Now with the advent of T20 cricket which while has given a new lease of life to spinners, has caused Pakistani spinners to basically replicate Imad Wasim. When you have 4 overs to bowl on a flat pitch against big hitting batsman, your primary objective is to not get hit so you'll see Pakistani spinners bowling wicket-to-wicket darts with no flight, loop or spin. Close-in fielders are reduced to spectators. If you're lucky you'll get a bowled or LBW.

This has also hurt our batsmen's ability to play spin. They were clueless against Afghanistan's spinners last year in the World Cup. They grow up on domestic wickets in Pakistan and UAE that don't break, don't spin and therefore never develop the footwork, technique or strokeplay to master spin.
 
No pacers with 200+ wickets.

No spinnerrs with 300+ wickets.

Lower number of tests played by Pakistan and relatively shorter career of bowlers seems like the main reason otherwise there have been many good enough bowlers.
 
This leads into the discussion of the standard of spinners currently in Pakistan.

If the truth be told, the cupboard is rather bare, hardly any unorthodox spinners either coming through.

Standard off-spinners with a few leggies these days.
 
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Spinners need to continuously reinvent themselves. The ones who re-invent & keep innovating new tactics have long careers

Murali in 90s was very different bowler to the Murali of 2000s. Same with Warne & Kumble. Thats why they kept playing so long & too 600-800 wickets

In contrast u have Monty Panesar who as Warne said " did not play 33 tests , but played the same test 33 times " . Thats the issue with Pakistani spinners. They start off well but after 2-3 years fail to innovate & become predictable. A spinner's biggest strength is his unpredictability & novelty factor - once he loses that , he will struggle to take wickets except in very favorable conditions like square turners. Look at Saqlain. He set the world on fire with his doosra in 1997 but by 2001 his doosra became very predictable and his career petered out after 2001

Same with Saeed Ajmal - he was no longer as effective in 2014 as he was in 2009-12 bcoz he became very predictable ( the loss of effectiveness probably forced him to flex so much that it became way too obvious & forced ICC to launch the crackdown on chucking )
 
Off-spinners without the doosra in general do not last long. That isn't the case with wrist spinners who even if they go for a few runs always get wickets here and there. Leg spinners in general are more threatening.

Danish Kaneria was thought to be the improved Abdul Qadir for Pakistan, but couldn't survive Saeed Ajmal. Also his fixing issues meant that we could never see Ajmal and Kaneria bowling together in the UAE which is a pity. Abdur Rehman was decent, but a leggie is a leggie.

Yasir Shah just debuted too late so won't get more than 300. Even that looks hard these days.
 
Rangana Herath really is something

4th highest wicket taking spinner in history despite becoming a regular only at the age of 32.

Why didn't Sri Lanka play Murali and him together as a tandem more in home matches and in places like India? Its not like they had other great options who were keeping Herath out in spinning conditions
 
Slog said:
Rangana Herath really is something

4th highest wicket taking spinner in history despite becoming a regular only at the age of 32.

Why didn't Sri Lanka play Murali and him together as a tandem more in home matches and in places like India? Its not like they had other great options who were keeping Herath out in spinning conditions
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First decade he played around 20-22 tests with avg around 36

Next decade he played 70 odd tests with avg around 26.

Despite playing only 20 odd tests, he was the top 2-3 wicket takers among all spinners from SL. I suspect if he had given chance to settle down then SL would have benefitted. Only after Murali was gone, he became the main spinner and played regularly. Herath could have gotten 600-700 wickets.
 
Not playing enough tests as well as Pakistani pitches. Pakistani pitches have never favoured spin even closely to the extent that Indian and Sri Lankan pitches have. It's only in the last 10 years, where we played in the UAE, that spinners were taking heaps of wickets in our games.
 
PakPremi said:
Lyon averaged almost 32 so hardly any difference in between the averages of two?
Saqlain was seriously injured amd played many tests u fit,he was badly treated by PCB.
Pak spinners did notbowl onrank turners like Indian spinners.
The only great spinners in my viewing time were Murli and Warne, others were all the same quality.
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Lyon plays in Aus. No other recent Spinner has done anywhere near what he has done in Aus
Saqlaon was injured but he lacked the necessary skills to take wickets without magic balls
Pak have no spinners on the tier of Bedi, Chandra, O’reilly, Grimmett. These bowlers did well away from home with no dust bowls
 
Zaz said:
What rubbish Found out? What does that even mean

If it wasnt for injuries saqi wouldve easily got to 300 no problem
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Relied on magic balls rather than variation of flight and turn, as well as accuracy
 
I would say it was down to 4 factors:

1. Clueless local groundsmen. They had no idea how to prepare tracks which spin on day 4/5.
2. Politics. I remember Ajmal started very late. Arshad Khan had the potential but was not given enough chances.
3. Fitness. Qadir/Mushy/Saqi all had downfall due to injuries and fitness issues. Perhaps they didnt look after their bodies as well as they should have.
4. County cricket. Saqi and Mushy murdered themselves by bowling a gazillion overs in county cricket.
 
Its not just spinners, Pakistani bowlers in general don't seem to have longevity. Other than Wasim, Waqar, and Imran (who are all time great / legends) - no other Pakistani bowler has even played 65 matches.

Other than the spinners, really promising & talented bowlers like Shoaib Akhtar, M Asif, Sarfraz Nawaz, Umar Gul, Aaqib Javed, M Amir, M Sami, Junaid Khan, etc etc. None of them reached their potential

Pak management just doesn't know how to manage bowlers. Other than the 3 icons, I'm can't even name a Pakistani fast bowler who was still a regular part of the team after age 32
 
Zaz said:
Maybe if pakistan played more tests and on rank turners like they do in india thered be 2-3 that wouldve broke 300
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Currently on Indian pitches pace bowlers take way more wickets than spinners. Yet we still ahev Ashwin and Jadeja
 
Non sense.

The only reason is not playing enough tests.

And that has nothing to do with skills or being found out. Pakistan has produced some amazing spinners who have won them tests worldwide.

Many reasons for fewer tests, biggest one being - Pakistan plays far far fewer tests than India, Australia and England so a guy iike Panesar will have played 20 tests before Pakistan spinner will have played 5 and has to prove himself in those 5. But other factors as well - an over-reliance on fast bowlers who were sometimes mediocre, poor home pitches for spinners. Plus all other factors like captains likes/dislikes, injustice, injury etc.

When did you last see a dust bowl or a proper spinning pitch in Pakistan?

None of these are about skills or being found out. They just didn't get enough tests.
 
Since Yasir Shah's debut, Pakistan has played 46 tests, India 59, Australia 63 and England 73.

Going by current rate, Yasir would have been way over 300 wickets by now if he had played the same number of tests as India with a good 3-4 years to go in his career. Not even considering what he would have done if he were in England or Australia.
 
So conclusion is as I pointed out early on that Pak play fewer tests, fitness issues and political issues in selections,added with non supportove pitches. When Pak started playing in remotely supportive pitches like UAE the spinners started taking plenty of wickets,Yasir and Saeed Ajmal returns point to that.
 
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Corridor of Uncertainty said:
Since Yasir Shah's debut, Pakistan has played 46 tests, India 59, Australia 63 and England 73.

Going by current rate, Yasir would have been way over 300 wickets by now if he had played the same number of tests as India with a good 3-4 years to go in his career. Not even considering what he would have done if he were in England or Australia.
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The issue with that is that for India he wouldn’t have got a game, in Aus he would’ve averaged 70 and in eng he wouldn’t be much better
 
therealAB said:
Lyon plays in Aus. No other recent Spinner has done anywhere near what he has done in Aus
Saqlaon was injured but he lacked the necessary skills to take wickets without magic balls
Pak have no spinners on the tier of Bedi, Chandra, O’reilly, Grimmett. These bowlers did well away from home with no dust bowls
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Lyon average is stillonly 1 better than Mushi and Pak pitches are no more supportive than Aussies for spinners.
 
PakPremi said:
Lyon average is stillonly 1 better than Mushi and Pak pitches are no more supportive than Aussies for spinners.
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A lot of great spinners have succeeded in Pak, basically none in Aus.
Aus is the hardest for spinners
 
PakPremi said:
On Indian pitches Yasir would have been sensational.
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Problem for Yasir is his control. For the last couple of years he's been bowling at least one bad ball an over.

On lifeless UAE pitches where the ball doesn't come easily onto the bat Yasir can get away with it, but on truer surfaces he's been punished.
 
Danish Kaneria's toll would have been a lot higher than 261 had Kamran Akmal taken more and dropped less. He wasn't called 'Dropmal' without reason.

Still I'm surprised Kaneria is the top wicket taker among Pakistani spinners.
 
gani999 said:
Danish Kaneria's toll would have been a lot higher than 261 had Kamran Akmal taken more and dropped less. He wasn't called 'Dropmal' without reason.

Still I'm surprised Kaneria is the top wicket taker among Pakistani spinners.
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Actuually wasn't a bad test match spinner. Played on very unforgiving pitches for even Asian standards. Was an aggressive wicket taker and had developed a good googlie. He did scare me but he seemed to lack confidence , a sense of security in that group which is a case study now up for debate. India would have used him a lot better.

Except Kumble, Chandra we don't have a leg spinner as good as Danish.

I will take Danish over Mushy.
 
The likes of Qadir, Saqlain, Mushtaq Ahmed and Saeed Ajmal were in terms of talent and skill second to none as spin bowlers in their eras - but the key to performance over a longer period is both physical fitness and motivation, that’s where they were lacking.

In fact you could say the same about most Pakistani cricketers , even a wonderful batsman like Saeed Anwar could not do justice to himself in terms of his record again due to question marks over his fitness throughout his career and motivation to his profession which he clearly didn’t have for long enough to achieve great landmarks that he was capable of.
 
Our bowling history is so overrated by pundits. We haven't had a test match fast bowler get 200 wickets for years and no spinner ever get 300 test match wickets.

Our bowling attack has been average since Waqar and Wasim retired. That's approaching nearly 20 years of mediocrity. How can you consider a nation to be great in aspect that they have been average in for nearly 20 years?

Shaheen is a great talent but other than that I don't see another Pakistani bowler who I can say for certain will be great. Naseem has a lot to prove but he does have time and needs experience.
 
Hasan123 said:
Our bowling history is so overrated by pundits. We haven't had a test match fast bowler get 200 wickets for years and no spinner ever get 300 test match wickets.

Our bowling attack has been average since Waqar and Wasim retired. That's approaching nearly 20 years of mediocrity. How can you consider a nation to be great in aspect that they have been average in for nearly 20 years?

Shaheen is a great talent but other than that I don't see another Pakistani bowler who I can say for certain will be great. Naseem has a lot to prove but he does have time and needs experience.
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No one is saying Pak bowling is great since wasim, waqar, shoaib, saqi, and mushi days.
We had some potentially great individual bowlers since then but they fell out for various reasons, Asif, Amir, Ajmal to name few.
Also as mentioned before Pak play very fewtest matches,and hardly any at home recently.
 
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Majid Khan said:
The likes of Qadir, Saqlain, Mushtaq Ahmed and Saeed Ajmal were in terms of talent and skill second to none as spin bowlers in their eras - but the key to performance over a longer period is both physical fitness and motivation, that’s where they were lacking.

In fact you could say the same about most Pakistani cricketers , even a wonderful batsman like Saeed Anwar could not do justice to himself in terms of his record again due to question marks over his fitness throughout his career and motivation to his profession which he clearly didn’t have for long enough to achieve great landmarks that he was capable of.
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Exactly right.
 
This is a good thread and quite an eye-opener. Some of the "real" reasons on this thread are as follows:

1. Number of matches being played - This equation really comes into play from 2000 onwards, pre-2000s the number of matches were low across all countries. For example, people on here rate Bedi, Underwood or Chandra over Qadir but none of them have taken 300 wickets, not because they were not good enough but because before 2000s the number of matches played around the world were lower.

Post 2000s, there was a cricket boom due to television and as cricket started making more money more matches were being played by each country. As cricket was booming, Pakistan cricket hit a low due to 2008 incident. Pakistan was barred from hosting international cricket and for the next decade Pakistan was simply plugging gaps in international calendar. This resulted in low number of matches played especially by Pakistan in past 2 decades.

To put things into perspective here, we can see Yasir Shah has played 39 test matches. Yasir started playing 2014 onwards and has been a regular in Pakistan test team. If we compare Yasir to Kusal Mendis of Sri Lanka who started playing in 2015 and was not always a regular in Sri Lankan team then Kusal has already played 44 matches in this time. The point being Pakistan plays less test matches than compared to even Sri Lanka and if we take this comparison with Ashwin (50 test matches) or Lyon (63 test matches) then you would see a bigger gap in number of matches being played since Yasir's debut (although Ashwin is not a regular in SENA matches).

2. Dependence on fast bowling - Historically before 2000s Pakistan's fast bowling has been super strong which meant that the bulk of wickets were taken by fast bowlers as evident in records of Imran, Wasim or Waqar. The spinners in this era were basically scavenging for any left overs rather than being an attacking threat to opposition, so spinners in this era have a low number in wickets tally.

3. Fitness / longevity of players - In most countries an ace spinner usually lasts for a decade if not more in test arena. However, in Pakistan their ace spinners have not lasted long enough and this is due to a number of different reasons. The likes of Mushtaq, Saqlain, Kaneria, Ajmal and now Yasir will eventually end up playing less than 70 test matches and their careers are curtailed due to various reasons like controversies, fitness, injury or disinterest in game. As there has been no longevity there has been no spinner with over 300 wickets in Pakistan cricket.

Having said the above, its a bit surprising that a Pakistani spinner hasn't bagged 300 test wickets yet. Perhaps with induction of home cricket now together with increased focus on fitness we may find a spinner that would serve Pakistan cricket fruitfully in the next decade.
 
I can only think of Danish Kaneria as a bowler who played enough for Pakistan since the turn of millennium. Rest just came, something happened and then went away.
 
PakPremi said:
No one is saying Pak bowling is great since wasim, waqar, shoaib, saqi, and mushi days.
We had some potentially great individual bowlers since then but they fell out for various reasons, Asif, Amir, Ajmal to name few.
Also as mentioned before Pak play very fewtest matches,and hardly any at home recently.
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All I hear from pundits is be wary of Pakistan bowling and it's dangerous. It's been average for years.

Btw none of Amir,Asif, and Ajmal are greats. They are just good bowlers.
 
therealAB said:
Relied on magic balls rather than variation of flight and turn, as well as accuracy
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He never got found out just got too old and had many injuries due to poor diet and not looking after his body. He played long enough and he out performed every Indian spinner almost every time he played against them.

Not sure what you mean by magic bowls that must be the best compliment ever. If he was able to bowl magic bowls that often wondered how batsmen manged to not give there wicket to magic bowls suddenly lol.
 
Ab Fan said:
I can only think of Danish Kaneria as a bowler who played enough for Pakistan since the turn of millennium. Rest just came, something happened and then went away.
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This is exactly what happened nobody played long enough. They were not greedy enough for long careers. Pakistan also dont play as many test matches as other nations with spinners taking more wickets. They also dont play in as many spin friendly wickets.
 
How many spinners play at least 75 matches? None!!!! Its not very easy to get 5 wickets/per match.
 
One of the reasons is that they didn't played enough. Maybe because of the competition we had between the spinners and always a new very good one coming.

I don't see any other country producing some many good/very good spinners since the 80's.

Abdul Qadir, Mushtaq Ahmed, Saqlain Mushtaq, Danish Kaneria, Saeed Ajmal, Yasir Shah.

It's pretty incredible to have 4 leg spinners who have 200 or more wickets. Ad to that 2 doosra bowlers and it's really a great lot of spinners.
 
We haven't had a constant spinner for 10 years in our lineup since forever. Saqlain played 40+ matches, Kaneria was the only one who played enough. Saeed replaced a worn out Kaneria, Ajmal got banned for chucking. Yasir then debuted at 28.

I really really hope Yasir overtakes Kaneria. Hard for me to see the corrupt (and proud about it) Kaneria at the top of the list. Yasir is lovely fellow.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
We haven't had a constant spinner for 10 years in our lineup since forever. Saqlain played 40+ matches, Kaneria was the only one who played enough. Saeed replaced a worn out Kaneria, Ajmal got banned for chucking. Yasir then debuted at 28.

I really really hope Yasir overtakes Kaneria. Hard for me to see the corrupt (and proud about it) Kaneria at the top of the list. Yasir is lovely fellow.
Click to expand...
It’s a disgrace seeing a top 3 of Wasim, Waqar and Imran followed by Danish Kaneria.

Yasir is the better leggie and deserves to be 4th All time.

After all, he led Pakistan’s attack when they were #1 in the rankings.
 
We rarely tried to support our spinners through pitches through delusions that our pacers were exceptionally good.

Yasir is a really, reallly good bowler when the conditions favor him, he can turn a game on its heels like he did today.

Should take a 5fer or more, maybe even 10 in the match if he gets to bowl at the tail.
 
Abdullah719 said:
List of spinners who reached 300 Test wickets including 3 Indians.

[table=class:grid][tr][td]Player[/td][td]Mat[/td][td]Wkts[/td][td]BBI[/td][td]BBM[/td][td]Ave[/td][td]Econ[/td][td]SR[/td][td]5[/td][td]10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]M Muralitharan[/td][td]133[/td][td]800[/td][td]9/51[/td][td]16/220[/td][td]22.72[/td][td]2.47[/td][td]55.0[/td][td]67[/td][td]22[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SK Warne[/td][td]145[/td][td]708[/td][td]8/71[/td][td]12/128[/td][td]25.41[/td][td]2.65[/td][td]57.4[/td][td]37[/td][td]10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]A Kumble[/td][td]132[/td][td]619[/td][td]10/74[/td][td]14/149[/td][td]29.65[/td][td]2.69[/td][td]65.9[/td][td]35[/td][td]8[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HMRKB Herath[/td][td]93[/td][td]433[/td][td]9/127[/td][td]14/184[/td][td]28.07[/td][td]2.80[/td][td]60.0[/td][td]34[/td][td]9[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Harbhajan Singh[/td][td]103[/td][td]417[/td][td]8/84[/td][td]15/217[/td][td]32.46[/td][td]2.84[/td][td]68.5[/td][td]25[/td][td]5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]NM Lyon[/td][td]96[/td][td]390[/td][td]8/50[/td][td]13/154[/td][td]31.58[/td][td]3.00[/td][td]62.9[/td][td]18[/td][td]3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Ashwin[/td][td]71[/td][td]365[/td][td]7/59[/td][td]13/140[/td][td]25.43[/td][td]2.84[/td][td]53.6[/td][td]27[/td][td]7[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DL Vettori[/td][td]113[/td][td]362[/td][td]7/87[/td][td]12/149[/td][td]34.36[/td][td]2.59[/td][td]79.5[/td][td]20[/td][td]3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]LR Gibbs[/td][td]79[/td][td]309[/td][td]8/38[/td][td]11/157[/td][td]29.09[/td][td]1.98[/td][td]87.7[/td][td]18[/td][td]2[/td][/tr][/table]

Pakistan's top wicket-taking spinners:

[table=class:grid][tr][td]Player[/td][td]Mat[/td][td]Wkts[/td][td]BBI[/td][td]BBM[/td][td]Ave[/td][td]Econ[/td][td]SR[/td][td]5[/td][td]10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Danish Kaneria[/td][td]61[/td][td]261[/td][td]7/77[/td][td]12/94[/td][td]34.79[/td][td]3.07[/td][td]67.8[/td][td]15[/td][td]2[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Abdul Qadir[/td][td]67[/td][td]236[/td][td]9/56[/td][td]13/101[/td][td]32.80[/td][td]2.71[/td][td]72.5[/td][td]15[/td][td]5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Yasir Shah[/td][td]39[/td][td]213[/td][td]8/41[/td][td]14/184[/td][td]30.52[/td][td]3.19[/td][td]57.3[/td][td]16[/td][td]3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saqlain Mushtaq[/td][td]49[/td][td]208[/td][td]8/164[/td][td]10/155[/td][td]29.83[/td][td]2.64[/td][td]67.6[/td][td]13[/td][td]3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mushtaq Ahmed[/td][td]52[/td][td]185[/td][td]7/56[/td][td]10/106[/td][td]32.97[/td][td]2.92[/td][td]67.7[/td][td]10[/td][td]3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saeed Ajmal[/td][td]35[/td][td]178[/td][td]7/55[/td][td]11/111[/td][td]28.10[/td][td]2.58[/td][td]65.1[/td][td]10[/td][td]4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Iqbal Qasim[/td][td]50[/td][td]171[/td][td]7/49[/td][td]11/118[/td][td]28.11[/td][td]2.21[/td][td]76.1[/td][td]8[/td][td]2[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Intikhab Alam[/td][td]47[/td][td]125[/td][td]7/52[/td][td]11/130[/td][td]35.95[/td][td]2.57[/td][td]83.7[/td][td]5[/td][td]2[/td][/tr][/table]
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Nonsense about not being good overseas etc. Every bowler has good and bad surfaces. Also nonsense about Saqlain being found out. All bowlers need to constantly evolve, sometimes mid career - Saqlain never got to play enough tests young enough to have a chance to do this work, like others do.

Just look at the data.

Simple reason: Pakistani spinners have just not played enough tests.

Their averages are comparable and so are the strike rates (except if compared to the very best such as Warne, Murali and Ashwin.) They are all very, very good spinners. Tier 1, right under the elite. They just didn't play enough tests.

Same for Pakistani fast bowlers. They will never compete in terms of number of wickets. Imran, Wasim, Waqar have got this many wickets from so few tests only because they were supermen.
 
Pakistan just doesnt play enough tests including home tests
If im right in the 90s they played more away tests than home

as well as the fact that pakistan wickets arent raging turner like india or sri lanka

Also We had pacers doing the job in the past so there wasnt a over reliance on them like there was in india or sri lanka

Nothing to do with the lack of quality Qadir, Mustaq, Saqlain, Kaneria Ajmal Shah are all excellent top class spinners
 
If it wasn’t for his love of match fixing Kaneria would have easily got there - played his last test at the age of 30 before he was sent packing by the management in the middle of an England tour.
 
Rayyman said:
It’s a disgrace seeing a top 3 of Wasim, Waqar and Imran followed by Danish Kaneria.

Yasir is the better leggie and deserves to be 4th All time.

After all, he led Pakistan’s attack when they were #1 in the rankings.
Click to expand...

It's not about ICC rankings but just that Yasir has given his all to Pak and has possibly won us more matches than any other spinner. Most of our wins since 2014 have been due to Yasir. And to see a cheat as a top 4 is disgusting.
 
Gabbar Singh said:
If it wasn’t for his love of match fixing Kaneria would have easily got there - played his last test at the age of 30 before he was sent packing by the management in the middle of an England tour.
Click to expand...

Even if he hadn't sold out, Ajmal had effectively taken over him by 2011.
 
therealAB said:
Mushtaq averaged 33, Qadir averaged 47 outside of Asia (most overrated bowler of all time) and Saqlain got completely found out, he didn't have the necessary skills to succeed past that.
Lyon has been the best spinner in the world in Australian conditions that all bowlers struggle on. While Kumble and Ashwin have generally been poor outside of home, their home records are just so dominant and they are generally able to at least keep it tight away from home unlike people like Qadir
Click to expand...


Rubbish post Qadir was a genuine attacking leggie Its comparitively more difficult to keep the runs down than kumble more medium pacer and ashwin an offie You also have to factor in away umpires n their biases in giving wickets hence why many spinners records were lop sided in that era

Also what rubbish is saqlain got found out? This has nothing to do with the fact His knees were shot n he just wasnt fit enough anymore to play at the highest level rather than being found out
 
Last edited:
sshakir411 said:
Which Pakistan spinner has played more than 70 tests?
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yeah very true but again some of the blame has to rest with the bowlers as well. None of them consistently performed for a long time. They either lost their edge or got booted out for non cricketing reasons. The same reason why none of the Pakistan pacers haven't reached 200 Test wickets since the retirement of Imran and the 2 W's. I don't believe for a minute that if a spinner is good, Pakistan will just drop them just to give some rookie spinner the chance. competition is not the only reason.

Yasir for all his frailties has been the only spinner who has done well consistently for a period of time and will most likely be the first Pakistan spinner to reach 300+ Test wickets and deservedly so. Saqlain lost his edge by the age of 28 when he got smashed in the 2003/04 series against India. Injury or no injury he never made a comeback.
 
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