Why have all Asian teams won series in England but never in Australia and South Africa?

[hafeezrocks]

All Asian teams ( except Bangladesh )have won and drawn multiple series' in England, won many Tests in England to an extent where it is not considered a miraculous achievement however winning even a Single Test in Australia is considered a Miracle and winning a test series in either Australia and SA an impossible task for Asian Teams.

Sri Lanka has never won a Test in Australia.
Pakistan has never won a series in Australia and have lost the last 10+ Tests in Australia, not even able to secure a draw.
India has never won a series in Australia and secured a draw in 2003 followed by 3 Series defeats .

Even at times when the Australian team had relatively weaker players, Asian team are never able to take advantage and win in Australia. Australia can field A players and still win against Asian teams in Australia.

When can we expect an Asian team to finally conquer the last frontier in either SA or Australia ?

 

[AssassinatedDevil]

All of that can change now. Australia is without Warner and Smith, two of their most important players. SA just lost AB, arguably their greatest cricketer ever. Massive shoes to fill for the youngsters that replace these players.

 

[asifp]

Historically I think

1) We had a lot more players playing county cricket from the days of Miandad all the way to now (Abbas). This means the team is a lot more used to the conditions. I don't think any player in the cricket team has much experience playing domesitc cricket in SA or Aus

2) Our boys generally tend to me spending more time in the UK, so they might not find it as much of an away tour as Australia. I went to Sydney for a few months and I felt like I was on a different planet. UK is filled with desis, so the atmosphere almost makes them feel like they are at home

3) Support. Linked to point (2). The team gets a lot more support here as compared to the other two places. Don't forget the Aussie crowds can be a lot more aggressive as well

The last two tours specifically
Main reason is preparation. We played four first class games this tour. Last time in the UK, we were there for 6 weeks.

Given our poor record in Aus/RSA, we should be there atleast 4 weeks before a tour and play atelast 3-4 first class games. These are tough tours and 1 first class game is not enough. Before we know it we are getting blown away in a Test Match. I really hope for our next tour PCB arranges for us to play 4 first class games before hand

 

[austerlitz]

One word : Bounce.

 

[Markhor]

English pitches suit the strengths of Asian teams. The pitches aren't as fast or bouncy as they are in Australia and South Africa, and with the new drainage systems at each ground you see drier and flatter pitches.

This helps not only our batsmen but also our spinners and our pacers with reverse swing. Then you have the Dukes ball which swings for longer and has a more pronounced seam, keeping our seamers in the game. Infact even spinners prefer bowling with the Dukes.

In Australia you hardly get any lateral movement after the first 20 overs with the Kookaburra. On those hard, flat pitches you need tall bowlers who can hit 140-145kph which Asian teams haven't produced too many of recently so have conceded 500+ totals on every tour.

Also Australia and SA have historically been better teams whereas England always give you a chance as they lack the same ruthlessness.

 

[Junaids]

One word : Bounce.

Exactly.

Asian batsmen struggle with lift from a full length. They all nick off to slip.

Asian bowlers get excited when they see the lift and pitch too short.

One other factor: the Kookaburra ball does nothing from overs 20-80. You need middle and lower-middle order runs.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Exactly.

Asian batsmen struggle with lift from a full length. They all nick off to slip.

Asian bowlers get excited when they see the lift and pitch too short.

One other factor: the Kookaburra ball does nothing from overs 20-80. You need middle and lower-middle order runs.

^ This is what you wrote.

They don't have 4 extremely fast bowlers over 6 foot. They don't have 3 super talented batsmen under 5 foot. They don't have an all-rounder named Sir Garfield Sobers.

^ This is what i read.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I don't think Asian batsmen struggle against bounce as much as claimed. On the other hand I do think Markhor is right. As even Steyn has claimed in the past, Australia is the hardest place for bowlers simply because there's very little margin for error. You need tall, hit the deck bowlers and a batting lineup capable of scoring heavily and at a good clip. You simply can't bowl dry and keep the runs down to the extent you can anywhere else including the UAE/SC.

 

[Buffet]

Extra bounce makes it harder for batsmen not used to it. Also, Asian bowlers need to bowl fuller length, but I often see them bowling short in Aus. To add one last point, Aus/SA have been stronger than Eng in general.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Both India and Pakistan have been denied a few series wins in Australia because of poor umpiring. In the era of home umpires Australia had the most biased umpires in the world, English ones were more neutral. Even when the Aussie team was at its pomp post 1995, I have seen even neutral umpires favoring their side a lot eg Pak 1999/00, India 2003/04, 2007/08.

 

[Cozyrensetter]

In addition to bouncy pitches ,its also the manner Aussies play cricket.They deflate the opposition with 4 RPO scoring over 300 on 1 st day and sledging .This demoralizes the opposition and they never recover.
This happened in 2011-12 tour of India when I saw Viinay Kumar going Over 6 RPO against Warner

 

[babajee]

Extra bounce makes it harder for batsmen not used to it. Also, Asian bowlers need to bowl fuller length, but I often see them bowling short in Aus. To add one last point, Aus/SA have been stronger than Eng in general.

I’m shocked you haven’t used rankings in this post

 

[The_Odd_One]

Some very good posts already so I will just add one more point from a different aspect. Australia is the mentally toughest team in the world. Asian teams often lose tests in Australia which they could have easily won or drawn.

Regarding SA, it's the combo of bowler friendly pitches and an army of world class fast bowlers from SA.

 

[Rayyman]

It really sucks how we get unlucky with Aus and SA tours. Couple of years back SA were weak when Eng beat them. Now they are looking a lot stronger. And Pak tour is this year. And then Aus, their best players just got banned and our worst batsmen (YK, Misbah) just retired right after the tour. Now we won't play them again until 2021 when they will be done rebuilding.

 

[shujaatraza]

In England teams tend to come really early as well to get used to the conditions.. In Australia they land maximum 2 weeks before the test.

 

[Buffet]

I’m shocked you haven’t used rankings in this post

Irrelevent post in this thread, but why do you take offence with ranking when evaluating performance? If it doesn't suit your narrative then it doesn't mean that objective rankings should be ignored.

Also stick to topic , otherwise forum becomes like a you tube or yahoo message board in quality.

 

[Thejedi]

I remember India and Pakistan being in decent positions to win tests in RSA and Australia and they choked. It is not just talent but also mental.

 

[Thejedi]

I’m shocked you haven’t used rankings in this post

Not needed when it is very clear that SA and Australia have been the best 2 teams for the most part of the last 2 decades.

 

[Buffet]

I remember India and Pakistan being in decent positions to win tests in RSA and Australia and they choked. It is not just talent but also mental.

I think SA is easier to win than Aus for SC teams. SA does provide different pitches. In Aus it's pretty much suited for the way Aus plays and it's harder for teams not used to it.

 

[amax]

another thing I have noticed is that Pakistani/India cant capitalize on advantages in Australia , there have been times when they were in top but give advantage away because of lack of discipline. With new influx of professionalism in Pakistani/Indian teams in recent times we might see some different results.

 

[hur rizvi]

Bounce is the issue

 

[hayder ali]

It really sucks how we get unlucky with Aus and SA tours. Couple of years back SA were weak when Eng beat them. Now they are looking a lot stronger. And Pak tour is this year. And then Aus, their best players just got banned and our worst batsmen (YK, Misbah) just retired right after the tour. Now we won't play them again until 2021 when they will be done rebuilding.

We are playing in Aus in October 2019 for 3 tests

 

[Savage]

Bowlers have struggled badly in Australia.And taking 20 wickets against Asian side on bouncy pitches isn't that much of a problem for Australia.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Bowlers have failed more-so than the batters in Aus/SA. Even India let SA get away a few times in the recent test series, which lead to them losing the series. Australia is hell for any team without bowlers with raw pace or decent height.

 

[Itachi]

Because England has been a rubbish team through out the history while Australia and RSA was one of the strongest.

 

[ManFan]

It was the bowling that let PAK and IND down the last times they toured which led to whitewashes on both sides.

AUS is no longer the fast and bouncy Down Under of yesteryear.

It’s a bunch of flat wickets with no life in them.

So to win you need an express pace bowler (Starc), a tall bowler who can extract variable bounce (Hazelwood), a spinner who can maintain pressure and obtain wickets in the lower order (Lyon) and a complete fast bowler who can reverse and use bouncers well (Cummins).

A lot of people have a go at [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] for his height theory but it is NEEDED to WIN in Australia.

 

[Hasan123]

Due to the bounce . Also conditions suit Australia perfectly. Allows their batsmen to play on the back foot and the longer they bat the more the run rate increase. Australian bowlers also have the extra height to get the bounce and they are also able to pitch the ball up.

 

[Noman]

Both India and Pakistan have been denied a few series wins in Australia because of poor umpiring. In the era of home umpires Australia had the most biased umpires in the world, English ones were more neutral. Even when the Aussie team was at its pomp post 1995, I have seen even neutral umpires favoring their side a lot eg Pak 1999/00, India 2003/04, 2007/08.

Couldnt agree more. Umpiring in aus has been the worse seen, If we count odi matches it has been disgracefull. Remember pak series 2005

 

[Savak]

The one time we prepared our backsides off for a tour to Australia and had arrived 5-6 weeks in advance under the leadership of IK and played 5-6 practice games and conducted multiple net sessions, Pakistan ended up winning the 1992 WC.

Preperation is key. We have never given our selves the best chance of winning in Australia and South Africa.

 

[Savak]

It was the bowling that let PAK and IND down the last times they toured which led to whitewashes on both sides.

AUS is no longer the fast and bouncy Down Under of yesteryear.

It’s a bunch of flat wickets with no life in them.

So to win you need an express pace bowler (Starc), a tall bowler who can extract variable bounce (Hazelwood), a spinner who can maintain pressure and obtain wickets in the lower order (Lyon) and a complete fast bowler who can reverse and use bouncers well (Cummins).

A lot of people have a go at [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] for his height theory but it is NEEDED to WIN in Australia.

Wahab was our best pacer in Australia, he was let down by an under performing Amir and ineffective support bowlers and also Yasir having a bad series.

 

[Suleiman]

Bounce is the hardest thing to adjust to after you’ve played a certain way most of your life. Couple with that most Saffer/Aussie pacers are generally faster than other countries’ bowlers and you are asking these guys to do something they’re not used to with insanely small reaction time.

Ofc if you want to be world class you have to master this..

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Pace+Bounce and the fact that Aussie / SA fast bowling is tougher.

In Pakistan the paciest and bounciest wicket is of Diamond cricket ground Islamabad and Haris has an average of over 50 in that ground. Expecting him to come good against these sides in their backyard.

 

[Ab Fan]

Aus and SA had the better and stronger pace bowlers and even batsmen in past and has the ruthlessness in them which England lacks.

England preparations aren't up to mark for SC teams as it is for Australia and to extent South Africa at home.

 

[ManFan]

Wahab was our best pacer in Australia, he was let down by an under performing Amir and ineffective support bowlers and also Yasir having a bad series.

That is true but he also bowled a lot of no-balls and if I rememebr correctly, one time, he bowled Warner on one who than went on to score a century.

We should move past him since he is 30+ and a liability with the bat.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

In Australia you hardly get any lateral movement after the first 20 overs with the Kookaburra. On those hard, flat pitches you need tall bowlers who can hit 140-145kph which Asian teams haven't produced too many of recently so have conceded 500+ totals on every tour.

Also Australia and SA have historically been better teams whereas England always give you a chance as they lack the same ruthlessness.

Current England team is pretty poor. They've lost to the West Indies at home for crying out loud. They have hacks like Vince, Stoneman, Ballance getting series after series whereas promising youngsters like Haseeb Hameed have been overlooked. Aussies doing the same thing with Renshaw. I don't care if their domestic form has dropped...these kids proved they can play Test cricket in places like India. You play those kids no matter what.

But good point about the bowlers. Aussies don't even have any quicks shorter than 6'2" and the Saffers always have a tall quick as well. Its much harder for a shorter bowler to get the same effect. Who has been the tallest genuine quick from India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka in the recent past? Mohammad Irfan and Ishant Sharma are the only guys I can think of, and neither are even half as good as a Mitchell Johnson or Josh Hazelwood.

 

[ArsenalFC]

As well as the pace and bounce the height difference between English and Aussie bowlers is significant.

For e.g. for ease of comparison if we take the current height of Aussie bowlers, they average 6 ft 5 between Cummins (6 ft 4), Hazlewood (6 ft 6) and Starc (6 ft 5). Now compare this with Amir (under 6 ft), Hasan Ali (5 ft 7 - very short!) and Abbas (looks around 5 ft 11 - 6ft). The average height of the trio Pakistanis is well below 6ft.

So in domestic cricket when you're facing shorter bowlers on slower pitches then the batsmen don't have this exposure playing at home and at domestic level.

 

[AZulfi]

Bounce is partly the reason for sure

The ball tends to swing (movement in the air) and seam (movement off the pitch) more in England and New Zealand but bounce more in Australia and South Africa

However bounce is not the only issue imo. Our normally penetrative bowling attack (in English conditions) is less effective in Australia for some reason. Even Wasim and Waqar had more success in England than Australia

 

[AZulfi]

That famous 1982 win at Lord’s (Mohsin’s 200, Mudassar’s golden arm) was Pakistan’s only second test win against England. At one point in the 80s, our win-loss stat against England in tests was 2-13.

Now the gap has narrowed considerably (21-24) I.e Pakistan have won more tests against England during the past 3 decades.

By contrast we trail Australia 14-31. Pak has lost 12 consecutive tests in Australia, an embarrassing stat..

 

[munirnadeem]

Also it is important to note conditions in Australia and newzeland are more different then england. Just like plants you get more conniferace plants in colder climates vs rainforest in warmer climates. Soil and conditions play a big role.

From my understand the pitches in England are easier to prepare for as englands condition are more easily replicable then austrialia.

 

[AZulfi]

Speaking of bounce, pitches in NZ are bouncy too but Pak have won many test series over there. I think with Australia it is partly psychological as well (we have squandered quite a few winning positions during the past two decades) knowing that we have not tasted much success in tests on their shores

 

[Rahul1]

We had the perfect opportunity to win in SA earlier this year but our bonehead captain decides to play the certified test failure Rohit ahead of Rahane.

 

[Toaster]

You are missing the point that Rahane was himself to blame for his pathetic display in the home series vs Sri Lanka, averaging in single digits in 5 innings. Had he performed well in that series, Rohit would never have been picked for the tests in South Africa. Kohli was going by the recent form of both the batsman. Should Rahane expect Kohli to pick him for his overseas form a couple of years back ignoring the recent performance of other batsman notwithstanding Rahanes fabled superior technique.

 

[Rahul1]

You are missing the point that Rahane was himself to blame for his pathetic display in the home series vs Sri Lanka, averaging in single digits in 5 innings. Had he performed well in that series, Rohit would never have been picked for the tests in South Africa. Kohli was going by the recent form of both the batsman. Should Rahane expect Kohli to pick him for his overseas form a couple of years back ignoring the recent performance of other batsman notwithstanding Rahanes fabled superior technique.

If he selected Rohit based on his form, why did he dropped Bhuvi from the second test considering he was India's best bowler in the first test without the shadow of a doubt?

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

That famous 1982 win at Lord’s (Mohsin’s 200, Mudassar’s golden arm) was Pakistan’s only second test win against England. At one point in the 80s, our win-loss stat against England in tests was 2-13.

Now the gap has narrowed considerably (21-24) I.e Pakistan have won more tests against England during the past 3 decades.

By contrast we trail Australia 14-31. Pak has lost 12 consecutive tests in Australia, an embarrassing stat..

Mental block. One series win by India or Pakistan and floodgates will open.

 

[Hawkeye]

DO NOT believe in excuses like bounce, short pitch etc etc.

That does NOT matter and is not the reason. These batsmen will play even on cement blocks and do just fine.

It's just a mental block. Aus and SA have just been too ruthless at home.

Especially Aussies.

Teams give up under pressure. And sledging. They don't let you settle.

 

[sunnyside]

For Pakistan & India it is dropped catches and bad fielding. For Sri Lanka probably lacking enough quality fast bowling.

 

[big_gamer007]

1. Bounce
2. Quality of bowlers in SA and Australia have always been better
3. Batting also has been mostly better for Aussies and SA than thheir English counterparts
4. Unlucky sometimes


India have a golden opportunity this year if they can’t win this year in Australia without smith and warner then don’t know when will they ever win..

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Pakistan almost won in '99 against great Aussies in Hobart test, umpire didn't give out to a clear caught behind From that point, Aussies chased the target. That series was 90% Pakistani but bad umpiring lifted pressure off Aussies.

Also, a lot of Desi cricketers play in county cricket to polish their skills. That's why it's easier to win in England

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

1. Bounce
2. Quality of bowlers in SA and Australia have always been better
3. Batting also has been mostly better for Aussies and SA than thheir English counterparts
4. Unlucky sometimes


India have a golden opportunity this year if they can’t win this year in Australia without smith and warner then don’t know when will they ever win..

Likes of Khawaja will score 100s against Indians.
It's all about 20 wickets

 

[troodon]

Aus and SA always had much stronger teams than England for the most part. So it is easier to beat England.

Also, Subcontonent teams never had bowlers to succeed in Aus and SA where the ball can bounce awkwardly from good length. You need tall hit the deck, pacy bowlers to succeed there. India, Lanka had lot of trouble due to over reliance on spin which was useless in Aus/SA.

Pak had bowlers to take down Aus/SA. But their batting was mediocre.

 

[Savak]

Another thing people don't realize is that for an Australian tour, you have to be fit as hell. The grounds and outfield are so much different compared to the rest of the world, the Australians really make you grind in the field, they score runs at 4-5 runs per over. Bowlers have to bowl long spells and have to bowl at full capacity in all those spells. Spinners are not that effective in Australia which doubles the workload for the pacers.

 

[Syed1]

I might be wrong in this but Pakistan in recent times have not shown up to an Aussie or Saffer series as early or as prepared as they do for an England series.


From Amir's interview today he mentioned Arthur was having them playing with Dukes balls even before they had left Pakistan. The boys were in the UK acclimatizing to the conditions about a month before the first ball was bowled in the first test.

I'm sure if we prepare like this we might eek out a good result in Aus/SA. Also one thing to note is that in my humble opinion playing swing is relatively easier than playing bounce - specially for Asian batsmen, and we all know Aus pitches are the definition of extra bounce.

 

[big_gamer007]

Likes of Khawaja will score 100s against Indians.
It's all about 20 wickets

They might or might not score point I was making is this is the weakest Aussie team and a strong and settled Indian team who will face Australia this year.. If we can’t win still we might as well stop expecting to win ever..

 

[PakLFC]

The ball doesn't bounce half as much in England compared to South Africa and Australia. So many sub continental players having played country Cricket in England are well used to English conditions. Lastly, South African and Australian bowlers have historically been much better then the English boys