Why haven't South Africa been able to produce any above average spinner?

[KP From India]

Even in their heydays, they had likes of Symcox, Boje, Tahir
etc. who were servicable at best.
SA board is professional enough to know the importance of spinners while touring away or even on few home wickets like Durban.
India or Sl have produced good pacers albeit in patches, where did SA board lacked? Or simply they dont have decent quality in spin leave alone to the level of Warne or Murali?

 

[MenInG]

Maharaj doing well - isnt he?

 

[Ab Fan]

Hillcrest Trayfield was one of all-time great SA spinners for many many generation but after that, SA have not been able to produce any spinner of top quality.

Maharaj certainly will end up as SA's leading wicket taker and can also take 300 test wickets by the time he retires. That will put him in " very good " category and that will be SA's best spinner in last 50-60 years.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Pretty obvious really they play in home conditions were spinners are there to just hold up an end and very rarely get assistance from wickets so dont develope.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Because they were busy making pace bowlers. they were able to produce 8 pacers who can take 200+ test wickets in the last 25 years where Pak managed to produce 0 pacers who took 200+ wickets.

The last Pak pace bowler to take 200+ wickets was Waqar Younis lol.

 

[Shoaibbtt]

Maharaj doing well - isnt he?

Innocuous ball get out Azhar, however I’ll give credit to the Imran dismissal.

I rate him as a containment bowler as oppose to wicket taker.

 

[James]

Because spin bowlers are a running joke in South African cricket. It is certainly very rare to see White Afrikaners bowling spin. Slow dobbly bowling is not contingent with the idealised masculine image in Afrikaner culture. They say that if you train as a spin bowler in South Africa, the pinnacle of your career will be coming on before lunch in a Test match, just to bowl one over of harmless balls so everyone else can take a break.

 

[majiz]

harmer is at least as good as swann but they ditched him for the garbage that is maharaj

 

[majiz]

Maharaj doing well - isnt he?

average of about 35 now i believe so not really

 

[Ab Fan]

average of about 35 now i believe so not really

For a South African, it is pretty good. Aussies rate Lyon as great, he averages 32. Ofcourse, Maharaj has to do it over a longer run but 34 is not bad for some one playing for South Africa. He did well in SL.

 

[Ahson8]

harmer is at least as good as swann but they ditched him for the garbage that is maharaj

Maharaj garbage ? You okay bro.

 

[Heisenberg111]

For a South African, it is pretty good. Aussies rate Lyon as great, he averages 32. Ofcourse, Maharaj has to do it over a longer run but 34 is not bad for some one playing for South Africa. He did well in SL.

Then Abdul Qadir, Kaneria are great spinners too.

 

[Ab Fan]

Then Abdul Qadir, Kaneria are great spinners too.

Not really. But pacers deserve few brownie points compared to SENA teams in my opinion because in subcontinent, spinners play the lead role. The WPM of Asian pacers will be lower than SENA because of spinnerd taking higher % of the wickets in Asia.

Also, if you look at record of some of the SENA pacers like Philander, Johnson, Broad and to an extent Rabada, it's awful.

Philander has 16 test wickets in 10 tests in Asia. That is Kallis level performance.

 

[Hyperion66]

Pretty obvious really they play in home conditions were spinners are there to just hold up an end and very rarely get assistance from wickets so dont develope.

This.

Also the kind of pace bowlers that they produced and still producing is mighty impressive to say the least, didn't even require spinners for most parts. Donald, Pollack, Steyn were all GOAT materials, even the likes Ntini, Morkel, Philander would have walked into most teams in their prime.

 

[CanadianG00se]

For a South African, it is pretty good. Aussies rate Lyon as great, he averages 32. Ofcourse, Maharaj has to do it over a longer run but 34 is not bad for some one playing for South Africa. He did well in SL.

His as harmless as it gets. In India, he was carted around like some part timers and never look threatnening to take a wicket. He would struggle to get into domestic XI in India. SA will never be able to beat any Asian side(including BD) with spinners like Maharaj.

 

[Ab Fan]

His as harmless as it gets. In India, he was carted around like some part timers and never look threatnening to take a wicket. He would struggle to get into domestic XI in India. SA will never be able to beat any Asian side(including BD) with spinners like Maharaj.

He averages 24 in SL and 25 in Pak till now. That is enough to call him very good. In India, he bowled on pattas to a GOAT home team. Even Warne and Murali got smacked here.

 

[Hyperion66]

Perhaps a bit off topic but among all test nations I rate SA the most after Windies of course when it comes to producing fast bowlers. Unlike many overrated ATGs SA bowlers actually had the ability to take the condition out of the equation and performed tremendously in Asia. Donald averages a whooping 16 in India!! Pollack 27 in India and 23 in Pak and Steyn was a friggin legend everywhere. When you are this incredibly good at one subject may be you deserve some leeway if you are not being able to replicate the same performance in the other.

 

[CanadianG00se]

He averages 24 in SL and 25 in Pak till now. That is enough to call him very good. In India, he bowled on pattas to a GOAT home team. Even Warne and Murali got smacked here.

He bowled against weakest SL team i have ever seen, doesnt say much about it. His bowling has been complete toothless against PK and never looked like taking game away. You’re just picking stats without context.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Maharaj is far better than Boje, Symcox and Harris. SA's way of playing has always been to kill with pace and choke with spin. Harris did it to good effect. If Maharaj was playing in late 2000s and early 2010s, he would have been even better with a much stronger pace attack.

Simon Harmer and Dane Piedt are also very good and above average spinners but the home conditions, Kolpak and quota have hurt their cricket in last 10 years very very much.

 

[Hyperion66]

He bowled against weakest SL team i have ever seen, doesnt say much about it. His bowling has been complete toothless against PK and never looked like taking game away. You’re just picking stats without context.

I partially agree, although I don't think he is completely toothless. I do not rate him much but he is pretty decent spinner for a SENA team to have. Also the thing that goes against him is that he isn't exactly young so I am not sure how much scope he has to take his game to another level.

 

[Ab Fan]

He bowled against weakest SL team i have ever seen, doesnt say much about it. His bowling has been complete toothless against PK and never looked like taking game away. You’re just picking stats without context.

Nobody is calling him a great bowler. What I mean is from a South African standard, he is far better.

Ofcourse, he will have to do well in long run. But if he can maintain even this level of performance for 3-4 more years, I will put him in a good test spinner category. Maybe at Vettori level if not Swann and Lyon level. 200+ wickets will no longer mean, "those wickets were cheap wickets".

 

[Saj]

This made me look at Imran Tahir's Test record. I didn't realise how bad it was:

20 Tests, 57 wickets at an average of 40.24

 

[amit]

South Africa needs to look at sub-continental origin players for spinners. That's how they found Imran Tahir, Tabraiz Shamsi and Keshav Maharaj

Also South Africa always produces good pacers. Better to play to their strengths. 1 spinner is enough and when playing in South Africa, Australia or New Zealand, they can play with 4 pacers in their XI

 

[CanadianG00se]

I partially agree, although I don't think he is completely toothless. I do not rate him much but he is pretty decent spinner for a SENA team to have. Also the thing that goes against him is that he isn't exactly young so I am not sure how much scope he has to take his game to another level.

Agree. He was rated as best spinner on PP before he got thrashing of his lifetime in India. I have always maintained my opinion on him that, he is at best containing spinner. He will never win you matches like Ash, Jaddu, or Yasir even on helpful pitches. Perhaps it has to do with him bowling mostly in SA where spinners don’t get much respect. I do give him credit for what he has achieved despite odds stacked against him, but to rate him as best is nonsense. Also, I don’t think he is even at Vettori level. Daniel Vettori had lot of variations which made him a very good bowler. He was left handed version of Kumble, who tricked batsmen with speed variations. I don’t think Maharaj is even at Vettori level, not yet.

 

[UzmanBeast]

It's tough being a spinner for a SENA country. Lyon is a great bowler, but you look at England, New Zealand, and South Africa, neither of whom have a great test match spinner.

Pitches in SAF are very conducive to fast bowling, so Maharaj doesn't really get a lot of assistance. Over there, it's mostly about keeping things tight and bowling some good lines. However, SAF could be a bit more prolific with how they use Maharaj, maybe keep some fielders close. Maharaj must also develop some variation off the pitch, so far from what I've seen, he has the off-break and the slider/arm ball. Should look to develop a few more variations which could be of more assistance, especially if he can get one to hug the ground or bounce more.

 

[CanadianG00se]

It's tough being a spinner for a SENA country. Lyon is a great bowler, but you look at England, New Zealand, and South Africa, neither of whom have a great test match spinner.

Pitches in SAF are very conducive to fast bowling, so Maharaj doesn't really get a lot of assistance. Over there, it's mostly about keeping things tight and bowling some good lines. However, SAF could be a bit more prolific with how they use Maharaj, maybe keep some fielders close. Maharaj must also develop some variation off the pitch, so far from what I've seen, he has the off-break and the slider/arm ball. Should look to develop a few more variations which could be of more assistance, especially if he can get one to hug the ground or bounce more.

That’s a poor excuse for not able to develop a spinner. Look at Asian sides, do we not see them developing quality seamers?

 

[UzmanBeast]

That’s a poor excuse for not able to develop a spinner. Look at Asian sides, do we not see them developing quality seamers?

You hardly see SAF give Maharaj a chance to bowl with protection and with an attacking field, so that's their problem right now. Need to put more trust on the spinner.

 

[Dark Magician]

harmer is at least as good as swann but they ditched him for the garbage that is maharaj

Do you watch cricket?

 

[Dark Magician]

South Africa have a cultural problem regarding spin. Spinners are not really taken seriously there. Look at the number of overs Maharaj bowled in the last series against SL. That tells you all you need to know about our spin culture. Spinners improve when they bowl lots and lots of overs. In South Africa that doesn't really happen. I also feel we're never gonna improve our performance in Asia until we have 2 or three serviceable wrist spinners. I was bitterly disappointed that Shamsi wasn't declared fit. Shaun Von Berg should have also made the side as the leg spinner who can bat a bit.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Clearly people here have forgotten about a world-class talent by the name of Paul Adams

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Do you watch cricket?

He's right. Harmer was very good but never got the chance to shine, and was dropped far too early despite averaging 29, which isn't bad at all for a spinner. Although Maharaj is not bad either...for a South African spinner. But Harmer was just better.

 

[Saj]

Clearly people here have forgotten about a world-class talent by the name of Paul Adams

Yes very interesting bowler. Crazy bowling action of course

134 wickets in 45 Tests at an average of 32.87.

 

[Hasan123]

Mahraj is a good spinner.

 

[James]

South Africa have a cultural problem regarding spin. Spinners are not really taken seriously there. Look at the number of overs Maharaj bowled in the last series against SL. That tells you all you need to know about our spin culture. Spinners improve when they bowl lots and lots of overs. In South Africa that doesn't really happen. I also feel we're never gonna improve our performance in Asia until we have 2 or three serviceable wrist spinners. I was bitterly disappointed that Shamsi wasn't declared fit. Shaun Von Berg should have also made the side as the leg spinner who can bat a bit.

Spot on.... huge cultural issue in SA, as I alluded to above.

 

[Ab Fan]

People who are rating Harmer highly are forgetting to understand that his average of 29 is only because of playing West Indies and the two games in India on absolute rank turners- Mohali and Nagpur.

The other two pitches in that series were balanced- Bangalore and Delhi but Mohali and Nagpur were basically square rank turner and Nagpur was even more horrible.

Maharaj is comfortably SA's best test spinner in last 60-70 years. Paul Adams is probably close but he is on verge of surpassing him.