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Why is there a gap between sehri - fajr and sunrise?

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Legal Eye

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A question I have every year, hoping PP can help me find an answer.

In England today for example, on the time table I follow, sehri was at 3.08am, fajr at 3.28am and sunrise at 5.25am

I have looked on a few UK timetables and it is the same arrangement.

Why do we have these gaps? Shouldn't sehri end and fajr happen at the same time? Why is fajr 2 hours before sunrise? Religious or scientific reasons?
 
Legal Eye said:
A question I have every year, hoping PP can help me find an answer.

In England today for example, on the time table I follow, sehri was at 3.08am, fajr at 3.28am and sunrise at 5.25am

I have looked on a few UK timetables and it is the same arrangement.

Why do we have these gaps? Shouldn't sehri end and fajr happen at the same time? Why is fajr 2 hours before sunrise? Religious or scientific reasons?
Click to expand...

I know!

It is absurd.
 
I'm not an expert on this issue but as per my knowledge it is banned in Islam to pray at the times of zawwal. There are 3 instances where this occurs:

1) Sunrise

2) When sun is at its highest peak (midday)

3) Sunset

The reason being that it becomes similar to sun worshipping. Also during summer times there are lot of confusion about Fajr times due to a phenomenon called persistent twillight (youtube the video). You may have noticed that during the night there is always some light in the sky, this is what makes the accurate prediction of Fajr times a difficulty, as Fajr time is classifed as when a volume of light starts to spread across the sky.
 
Our Fajr and Sehri (ending of sehri) times are the same here.
 
Just a guess.....

Maybe the gap is for people to finish the Sehri and have the time to go the mosque for Jamaat. Afterall we are strongly encouraged to pray in Jamaat.
 
The Jamaat times are a 4th column on the timetables - for instance:

Sehri - 3.06
Fajr - 3.26
Fajr Jamaat - 4.30
Sunrise - 5.26

It's madness!
 
Sehri and Fajr times are same, where I live at least.
 
Thank you - Finally someone asking this question.

I have always asked a similiar question since I was a little lad and no imams or anyone else has given a satisfactory answer to why we (in the UK) do not start fasting from the start of Fajr or indeed Sunrise itself.

I can understand all the exceptional cases of this and that and the twilight issue etc etc.

But if you rely on Astronomy and Meteorology to calculate the exact time of sunset to open iftar, which is the start of the Maghrib prayer, then why do we not start fasting (Stop eating) at the very least at the time of Fajr?

sun worshipping
Click to expand...

By that definition the entire concept of Time in the world and the International calendar is by definition, sun worshipping heresy?

So:

Sehri = Eat before Fajr.

Fajr = Stop eating and go and Pray.

Sunrise

Iftar = Maghrib = Break your fast.

Simples.

-

If I'm mistaken I apologise in advance.
 
Our sehri time is around 2.50 ish and Fajr is around 4 :|
 
That is actually a very good question. I did think about it in the beginning but then thought the Maulvi's surely know what they're talking about and let it slide. So, where are our resident experts when you need them eh? :moyo
 
Some mosques in UK do it, the mosque I go to doesnt have such a gap. No need for it so feel free to keep eating till 3.26.
 
Hmmm interesting I don't know what's going on I would ask the timetable maker.
By me the end of sehri and start of Fajr prayer is at the same time.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Some mosques in UK do it, the mosque I go to doesnt have such a gap. No need for it so feel free to keep eating till 3.26.
Click to expand...

It does seem like a redundant exercise to be fair. But there must be some logic, right or wrong, behind it surely.
 
As far as I know, and Allah knows best, the first time you are seeing, 3:08, is known as IMSAK. This is meant to say stop eating.

It is followed in some cultures/some sects. It's a concept created and I do not know of any historical evidence behind this as I've always heard the sunnah is to eat until Fajr and break your fast as soon as you hear the Azan for Maghrib. In fact, it's even said that if you are eating and you hear the sound of Fajr azan, finish what's in your mouth.
 
Checked a timetable for a local masjid and there is a 10 minute gap between Fajr and sehri in every roza. Quite obviously its some man made thing because its a perfect 10 minutes every day.
 
For me its: Fajar Start time-4:28 am.....Iqamah-5:30 am.....sunrise-6:08 am


there is no specific 'sehri time'..I can eat until 4:28 am :)
 
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DeadlyVenom said:
Checked a timetable for a local masjid and there is a 10 minute gap between Fajr and sehri in every roza. Quite obviously its some man made thing because its a perfect 10 minutes every day.
Click to expand...

Our local Masjid has a 10 minute gap every day between Sehri and Fajr

Sehri today was 3:55 and Fajr at 4:05, Fajr Jamaat at 4:30
 
Right, I have just come across this which might help understand the gap:

The best time for suhoor
It was narrated that Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “We ate suhoor with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) then he went to pray.” I [the narrator] asked, “How long was there between the adhaan and suhoor?” He said, “As long as it takes to recite fifty verses.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1921; Muslim, 1097.

This hadeeth indicates that it is mustahabb to delay suhoor until just before Fajr. Between the time when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him) finished their suhoor and started to pray was the amount of time it took to recite fifty verses of the Qur’aan at a moderate pace, neither fast nor slow. This indicates that the time for prayer is close to the time of stopping eating and drinking.

What is meant by the adhaan here is the iqaamah, which is called adhaan because it is an announcement that the prayer is about to begin. It was narrated in Saheeh al-Bukhaari (576) that it was said to Anas – the narrator of the hadeeth – “How much time was there between their finishing their suhoor and starting to pray?” He said: “As long as it takes for a man to recite fifty verses.” Hastening to eat suhoor halfway through the night is permissible, but it is contrary to the Sunnah. Suhoor is so called because it happens at the time of sahr, which is the end of the night.
Click to expand...
 
Fajr Adhaan time is when you stop eating. I have heard of people applying this concept of 'Imsaak', but is there any basis of this from the Sunnah?


And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Bilaal gives the adhaan at night, so eat and drink until you hear the adhaan of Ibn Umm Maktoom, for he does not give the adhaan until dawn comes.” This imsaak which some of the people do is an addition to that which Allaah has enjoined, so it is false. It is a kind of extremism in religion, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Those who go to extremes are doomed, those who go to extremes are doomed, those who go to extremes are doomed.”

Narrated by Muslim

More on this : http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/12602
 
I too have never heard of this whole imsaak thing until this ramzan

Im sure this whole.. end 10 minutes before is a precautionary thing but now people have made it a real thing?
 
Eagle_Eye said:
Dont you have 24hr of sunlight in Norway right now? :)
Click to expand...

That is in the northern parts of the country. I live in Oslo in the southern part.

Sehri time today was 03:58 AM while Maghrib is 21-48.

Abut 30 minutes to Iftaar now :)
 
Forget the time gap between fajr and sehri, how on earth do you explain the massive gap between sehri times for all those living in the UK? Sehri where I live is 2.25am, and yet a friend living an hour away has Sehri at 3.25am. The same story occurs at Iftari. It's absurd. The difference in daylight hours should be minutes, not an entire hour.
 
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Usman said:
Forget the time gap between fajr and sehri, how on earth do you explain the massive gap between sehri times for all those living in the UK? Sehri where I live is 2.25am, and yet a friend living an hour away has Sehri at 3.25am. The same story occurs at Iftari. It's absurd. The difference in daylight hours should be minutes, not an entire hour.
Click to expand...
Perhaps its a different method being used to calculate the start of sehri.

In my city iv seen three timetables one was 1.34 the others 2.55 and 4.01!
 
Oddly enough, sunrise radio changed their sehri time yesterday from 3.06 and 3.08 in the first two days to 3.42. The presenter also then explained that there would be no gap between sehri and fajr

Wonder what happened? Maybe she read PP!!!!
 
Is there any correct or wrong time considered in closing of a sehri??. The mosque that I am following is making people close sehri at 2:41 (jamaat at 3:10am) which according to them is astronomical twilight time(beginning of sadiq) and according to them that is the right time for fajr. Where as other mosque in my area closing sehri at 3:40am and holding jamaat at 4:04am. It is so weird because I have never faced these issues even in Pakistan or Qatar where I was before. Can anybody explain to me why there is no one time for sehri here in Uk??
 
so you have to be up for an hour doing nothing after sehri before you say fajr prayers in UK?

Madness!
 
Thank you everyone - Right, so we in the UK questioning this absurd practice in this day and age are not kaafir's or going mad!

-

I think its due to the immense multi-cultural Muslim Communities in the UK; Which I love having but in this case, of times and rulings etc, such variety can cause power conflicts.

Power Politics and Ego's - Thats all it is and the inablity to compromise in the face of common sense.

Every Mosque has to be shown to be "Different" as only They are "Right" - Follow them, otherwise you are "Wrong".

As Umar SHarif said: "Banao apnee dehr dehr eetohn ki Masjid" (Build your 2 and half bricks worth of Mosques...) - i.e.

"Thats Their Mosque with Their Sehri Rules and Calculations"

"This is OUR Mosque with OUR rules etc"

People are going to absolutely slaughter me for this, but the South Asian Mosques have a lot to answer for for instigating much of the divisive politics in Religious matters in the UK (Probably as they are the largest Muslim Immigrant community in the UK)...
 
Tapori said:
People are going to absolutely slaughter me for this, but the South Asian Mosques have a lot to answer for for instigating much of the divisive politics in Religious matters in the UK (Probably as they are the largest Muslim Immigrant community in the UK)...
Click to expand...

Spot on Brother!
 
As far as I know, calculating the exact time for Dawn is hard (especially for places far away from he equator). Hence, as a precaution, one is recomended to start fasting 10 min before the Fajr time (ie. dawn) and this time is known as imsak. I have no idea about gaps being more than 10 minutes.

As for people saying sehri time is different in same country, well, it all depends on what time the dawn is at that place. If dawn is the same everywhere or at close, but sehri times are way off, then I really don't know what the reason is for that.

And as for fajr and sunrise being different, that's obvious. Fajr starts at dawn and ends at sunrise. And dawn and sunrise are not the same thing.
 
Tapori said:
Thank you everyone - Right, so we in the UK questioning this absurd practice in this day and age are not kaafir's or going mad!

-

I think its due to the immense multi-cultural Muslim Communities in the UK; Which I love having but in this case, of times and rulings etc, such variety can cause power conflicts.

Power Politics and Ego's - Thats all it is and the inablity to compromise in the face of common sense.

Every Mosque has to be shown to be "Different" as only They are "Right" - Follow them, otherwise you are "Wrong".

As Umar SHarif said: "Banao apnee dehr dehr eetohn ki Masjid" (Build your 2 and half bricks worth of Mosques...) - i.e.

"Thats Their Mosque with Their Sehri Rules and Calculations"

"This is OUR Mosque with OUR rules etc"

People are going to absolutely slaughter me for this, but the South Asian Mosques have a lot to answer for for instigating much of the divisive politics in Religious matters in the UK (Probably as they are the largest Muslim Immigrant community in the UK)...
Click to expand...


TOP POST.......So far what I have observed is that every1 trying to prove a point here......It really is embarrassing tbh......
 
I don't live in the UK but what I'm reading isn't making me happy because this shouldn't be a matter of confusion or something to take lightly.

The sehri time ends with dawn which is the beginning of Fajr prayer so the end of sehir time must be the same as the start of Fajr. If you have doubt whether your timetable is correct or not then I suggest you use our own eyes.

When your timetable says it's end of sehri you go outside and see if you can distinguish the dark of the night from the white of the morning. I have done this myself too. If it's end of sehri time then you will observe a dark blueish sky from the side where the sunrises and a dark sky on the other side. With this you get an idea how accurate your timetable is.

And also here is the Quranic verse that allows us to eat till as long we can't distinguish the white thread from the dark one.

Holy Quran Surah Al-Baqrah 2:187 said:
...and eat and drink until the white thread (light) of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread (darkness of night)...
Click to expand...
 
^^^^ Top post bro that's what me and my bro do.

Worst thing is that iftar time is wrong too so people are opening their fast too early!
For example yesterday iftar was at 8:51 here but it was clearly not time to pray Mahgrib yet so we waited until 8:57 when it appeared that Mahgrib had kicked in
 
Thanks - Still awaiting the "You self-hating BBCD" comments though...

Abdullah22 - Thats very informative; I just wish with the technology at our disposal, in the UK you could easily standardize what constitutes the separation of Night and the beginning of morning. Mentioned earlier too is the confusing phemonenon of areas in the world where such seperation is hard to physically distinguish with your eyes in the Summer.

I admit I do not know what constitutes the requirements of Fajr in relation to sunrise.

What we do know is when Sunrise occurs in the UK;

Even if the UK Mosque-Waalas don't agree on what those "Kaafir Astronomers + Meteorologists" define "Sunrise"as, they could at least come up with some logical standards between themsleves - At least it would make some sense!

After all this is the same Religion that furthered the Scientific method... We ignore it to our own detriment.

Much respect to the UK people trying to make sense to this + The enlightening responses by non-UK residents, understandably thinking "WhatTheHell?".
 
Sehri timings confusion

Fajr is at 4:38 am and sun rise is at 6:03 am, when does sehri stops ? 4:38 or 6:03 ? :(
 
@mnoman: Fajr means both Fajr Azan and starting the fast. Therefore, sehri ends at 4:38 am, not when the sun rises.
 
Sehri should be finished before Azzan of Fajr , timing on time table a bit early because, otherwise ppl say, oh still 15 mins to go and continue to eat. back in Pakistan, ppl finished eating when they hear Azaan, but in UK/Europe/USA and other countries, u dont hear Azaan in ur home so better follow time tables

As for Fajr prayers, some mosques offer prayers like 15 mins after Azaan, and some mosques offer prayers 15 mins before sunrise as ther is like one hour gap between azzan and sun rise
 
mnoman15 said:
Fajr is at 4:38 am and sun rise is at 6:03 am, when does sehri stops ? 4:38 or 6:03 ? :(
Click to expand...

if Fajr Azzan is at 4:38am, stop eating at like 4:28
Sehri finishes with Azzan of Fajr and NOT with sunrise
 
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So according to my understanding of this thread so far, Sehri time is a self-imposed pre-Fajr time-limit by man in order to ensure no lapse occurs in relation Fajr Azaan.
 
Do you stop eating at imsaak or fajr

simple question boys, when does your fast start
 
what's imsaak? can't believe sehri is 3:30 am here when sun comes out around 5. complete sorcery!
 
venomousx said:
what's imsaak? can't believe sehri is 3:30 am here when sun comes out around 5. complete sorcery!
Click to expand...

Imsaak (if I'm not mistaken) is the act of closing the roza around 10 minutes before the Fajr beginning time. It is regarded by bidah (innovation) by some.

Regarding your second point, what's so surprising about that? Fajr begins about 1.5 hours before sunrise, so that shouldn't be surprising.
 
Well what I do is follow the fajr beginning time. Plus or minus 5 mins is okay because not every watch gives same time. So say it is 3:30 am , if you are eating something .. finish it ...... may be it takes another 5 mins . Allah ( swt ) knows your intention.
 
Good question and I have been frustrated for the last few years as we always seem to start fasting way before fajr. Here we are starting our fast at about 245 even though fajr is about an hour later.

Now I've come across these sites which give me different times for fajr for the same place!! Can anyone enlighten me to which is correct?? The only difference I can see is the "angle rule" and the "1/7th rule"........what are these? I've added a few links, can anyone help??? I personally think the correct time is the later fajr time.....

blackburn prayer times version 1

blackburn prayer times version 2

difference between rules

seems this is only the UK....why do we make things difficult here??
 
Prophet Muhammad ( pbuh ) told not to make religion too tough. In those days people used to judge Fajr Time with naked eyes.
 
Bump! More confusion in my household about this! Big gap per our timetable between sehri ending and sunrise!

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
 
It's pretty big in NYC too. I will wake up at 3am for Sehri, fajr time is 3:46. Then meghrib is around 8:24. So that's almost 16 hours. But Inshallah I will keep all the Rozay.
 
Isn't Fajr at dawn, which is different from sunrise?
 
For those who have a trouble understanding:

1800px-Momentsdelajournee.svg.png


The blue area on the left is basically fajr time. The black area is when you can eat. And the light blue area is the day.
 
Suhoor(Sehri) ends when sunlight appears across the full width of the horizon.

fajr1.jpg


That's when Fajr starts. Fajr ends when top of the sun's disk appears above the horizon. That's your sunrise.

11766423-standard.jpg
 
here in pakistan gujrat sehri time would be 3 20 and fajr at 4 10 so hour difference .Sehri must end at 3 55 or 4 just 10 mins before. Here temp goes to 45 in day time so it is very difficult to keep roza for 16 hours it can be reduced to 15 by doing so but i doubt molvis will ever think of it
 
Shayan said:
Bump! More confusion in my household about this! Big gap per our timetable between sehri ending and sunrise!

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

read the difference between Dawn and Sunrise. this is basic stuff
 
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Chief Destroyer said:
Suhoor(Sehri) ends when sunlight appears across the full width of the horizon.

fajr1.jpg


That's when Fajr starts. Fajr ends when top of the sun's disk appears above the horizon. That's your sunrise.

11766423-standard.jpg
Click to expand...

awesome reply :14:
 
srh said:
read the difference between Dawn and Sunrise. this is basic stuff
Click to expand...

I understand the difference. However, there's a 3 hour gap on some calendars here between sehri ends and fajar which is probably where the confusion lies
 
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The further North one goes during the summer, the longer the 'dawn' (time between the sky starting to get lighter, and the first rays of the rising Sun), and the longer the 'dusk', between the last rays of the setting Sun and darkness). And this is further compounded by weather, ie Cloudy or clear skies.

Similar for the Southern summer months. Hence, other than mathematical calculations as to the exact position of the Sun, there is no clear cut dividing line between "day" and "night".

Whereas, closer to the equator, the gap between total darkness and full daylight/sunrise is short. Similar for dusk, ie as soon as the last rays of the Sun disappear, darkness ocurrs.

Those of you currently living in the North will understand what I mean. Whereas, on the western side of the Arabian Peninsula (ie Medina and Mecca), there would not have been any notion of this 1500+ years ago.

Hence the confusion between sehri time, fajr time and sunrise for those in the North.
 
In reality sehri does end with fair time starting. Some people have a 10-20 minute gap as precautionary.
Sunrise has nothing to do with the first starting
 
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