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Why isn't Pakistan producing pace-bowling all-rounders?

Saj

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I am referring to genuine Test quality all-rounders who can win you a Test match with either bat or ball.

An Abdul Razzaq, Wasim Akram, Imran Khan type cricketer. Where are these types of cricketers and why isn't Pakistan producing them any more?
 
Perhaps coaches are encouraging youngsters to specialise either as a batsman or bowler too early.

We desperately need to develop a seam bowling all-rounder to add balance when we tour outside Asia.
 
Pakistan haven't had a proper pace-bowling all-rounder since Abdul Razzaq.

Faheem Ashraf and Asif Ali can fill up the void but they have been inconsistent.
 
Pakistan produced them through sheer genuine talent.

Now, you need a better cricket setup if you want to develop young cricketers into great ones which Pakistan cricket setup ain't. Hence, the results are Faheem Ashraf.
 
Because we don't have the talent.
PCB don't know how to develop some decent players who can play for 10 years on merit.
 
We are unable to produce pace bowling All-rounder, so why not develop a spin bowling All-rounder i-e Zafar Gohar.

He can be handy in AUS,NZ,SA with some tight overs unlike Yasir Shah. Zafar Gohar is an exceptional talent.
 
Mohammed Amir should develop his batting. He can become a bowling all-rounder like Wasim Akram.

He has shown his capability with the bat before.
 
The other worrying thing is there doesn't seem to be any coming through.

Amir Yamin and Ammad Butt - I don't think they are Test quality all-rounders.

Faheem Ashraf, I'm yet to be convinced by him.
 
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The problem is mainly with the batting. We have seen many decent bowlers who have batting potential over the past few years such as Wahab, Hassan, Faheem, Amir. Even the likes of Gul before them.

However none of them ever took their batting seriously or improved to a level where they could be considered all round players.

Part of the blame should go to PCB. When they identify someone who has talent, they should force domestic teams to give them ample chances to practise the skills. For example the top 2 or 3 fast bowling all rounders should be asked to bat in the top 4 in domestic cricket.
 
Mohammed Amir should develop his batting. He can become a bowling all-rounder like Wasim Akram.

He has shown his capability with the bat before.

I was thinking the same.

After Imran, we have Wasim Akram then later on Abdur Razzaq, Razzaq was playing when we found one in M Amir, But unfortunately he lost his 5 years and so he didn't developed into a decent All-rounder.

We may found someone in U19 in future, but now there is no one in domestics.
 
The problem is mainly with the batting. We have seen many decent bowlers who have batting potential over the past few years such as Wahab, Hassan, Faheem, Amir. Even the likes of Gul before them.

However none of them ever took their batting seriously or improved to a level where they could be considered all round players.

Part of the blame should go to PCB. When they identify someone who has talent, they should force domestic teams to give them ample chances to practise the skills. For example the top 2 or 3 fast bowling all rounders should be asked to bat in the top 4 in domestic cricket.

Yes Wahab Riaz was decent in 2010 ODI series again SA in UAE but PCB didn't developed him into a decent all rounder.
 
I was thinking the same.

After Imran, we have Wasim Akram then later on Abdur Razzaq, Razzaq was playing when we found one in M Amir, But unfortunately he lost his 5 years and so he didn't developed into a decent All-rounder.

We may found someone in U19 in future, but now there is no one in domestics.

Amir is still quite young. He is only 28. He should have at least another 8 years of LOI career.

He still can develop his batting.
 
Why not have talent hunting camps with former all rounders like Abdul Razzaq and Azher Mehmood as the ones leading them? We regularly get many for pace bowlers why not try the same for all rounders.

Or why not use the six regional coaches and management to find pace bowling all rounders for their teams by conducting trials? Surely the purpose of domestic cricket is to provide talent for national team and now with everything under PCB they can request each regional team that this is required in the national team please conduct trials and camps so we can have the best pace bowling all rounders available to work upon.

Thing is we aren’t seeing many even at junior level since maybe Hammad Azam who didnt become what he was expected to. To be honest a bit surprising that we Pak has been without a decent pace bowling all rounder for almost a decade now.
 
t20 cricket, doesnt allow enough time for bowlers with batting talent to develop a mental game, just a slogging game. batters with bowling talent dont get a go in t20 cos one bad over costs too much.
 
Because the selectors hate them.
Amir Yamin is still the best all rounder in the country, but he is never considered.
Fahim klusner is seen as more of a bowler than an all rounder
Hammad azam was also a promising all rounder.

Pcb just chucked both of their careers out.

An all rounder is a must for successful teams. New Zealand have colin de grandhomme, aus have mitch marsh (he took a 5 Fer in the ashes). India have pandya, pak is the only team obsessed with over burdening 4 bowlers the responsibility.
 
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Ijaz Ahmed was developing a fast bowling all rounder opener during the U19 world cup. Let’s see how he develops.
 
What happened to Hammad Azam? I remember he was starting to become regular a while ago.
 
There are hardly any genuine ARs in Cricket anyway. Most ARs are literally bowlers who can bat/slog a bit or batsmen who can bowl some decent part time soon bowling.
 
Amir is still quite young. He is only 28. He should have at least another 8 years of LOI career.

He still can develop his batting.

He's never been an all-rounder and never will be.

The occasional innings isn't the mark of an all-rounder.
 
I blame the local coaches who actively discourage kids > a bowler to develop his batting and a batsman to develop their bowling.... PCB should sack these coaches .... they are a cancer in our cricket setup....
 
What happened to Hammad Azam? I remember he was starting to become regular a while ago.

He was rated pretty highly during his U19 days and got Pakistan call pretty early as well however, he never stepped up from there. When he was in his U19 days everyone including him knew that he was gonna play for Pak and fill the spot which Razzaq had in Pakistani team but, maybe became contended as he never really developed into what was expected of him.

His domestic stats have definitely improved in last few years where he averages 33 with the bat and 22 with the ball. Did pretty decently for Northern region which played the QAE 2019 final. His pace has improved to early-mid 130s. However, once you are discarded from Pak team at a young age then you have to deliver something exceptional to come into limelight. Assuming he comes into eyes once again, I dont think he can be the 5th bowler in LOIs atleast without having a 6th option with his current variations but, can be a used in tests at no 6 or 7 if who can ball 10-15 overs per innings at 130-134 kph.
 
Worth adding to my previous post that Hamad's bowling average of 22 is inflated by the pre 2019 QAE trophies with green tops.
 
He was rated pretty highly during his U19 days and got Pakistan call pretty early as well however, he never stepped up from there. When he was in his U19 days everyone including him knew that he was gonna play for Pak and fill the spot which Razzaq had in Pakistani team but, maybe became contended as he never really developed into what was expected of him.

His domestic stats have definitely improved in last few years where he averages 33 with the bat and 22 with the ball. Did pretty decently for Northern region which played the QAE 2019 final. His pace has improved to early-mid 130s. However, once you are discarded from Pak team at a young age then you have to deliver something exceptional to come into limelight. Assuming he comes into eyes once again, I dont think he can be the 5th bowler in LOIs atleast without having a 6th option with his current variations but, can be a used in tests at no 6 or 7 if who can ball 10-15 overs per innings at 130-134 kph.

I see. I remember him from Asia Cup 2012. I thought he would be regular.

He has a FC bowling average of around 22 which is pretty impressive. His FC batting average is 33.

Was he discarded from national team too early?
 
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Was he discarded from national team too early?

Tough question to answer. He was given 11 ODIs in which he averaged 16 with the bat however only bowled around 30 overs as his bowling probably wasnt considered good enough at that time but then if you want to develop an all rounder you have to swallow some bitter pills. He was around 6ft 1 and 6ft 2 so had that bit of natural bounce from the wicket as well. Played 5 T20s as well with no impact. I would say these were pretty reasonable chances to show atleast something but unfortunately he didnt produce anything and also didnt look like he was progressing or getting better with each game at international level.

One can argue that when you select a 20-21 year old guy who was playing U-19 not too long ago then you should try to develop him as much as you can otherwise you shouldnt select him to disrupt the natural progression through FC cricket. Its pretty subjective to say how many opportunities are enough or not, I think maybe he could have been given more matches to develop especially considering how highly he was rated from his younger days so he must have had something in him and there was literally no other pace bowling all rounder available at that time.
 
Most fast bowling AR's are sloggers with good hand eye co-ordination. I feel that's really talent which can't be taught.
 
Amir Yamin is the best.

Amad Butt is very good for limited overs.

Hussain Talat is another.

Ali Khan is very good from Sialkot
 
Razzaq and Imran Khan type of all-rounders are once in a generation, so its not surprising that they're not coming by everyday.

But I think 3 reasons why there has been an all-around lack of all rounders:

1) PCB hasn't invested in of all-rounders the way they have in fast bowlers, or batsmen - there are no all-rounders camps, clinics, etc

2) Amir Yamin, Hammad Azam, Faheem Ashraf, et al all have faults, but PCB has done very little to develop them beyond just letting them rot in domestic or play them in a few random LOI's

3) For the last decade, with Hafeez, Malik, Afridi, Pakistan have had some flexibility, so the hunger to find a more genuine all-rounder hasn't really been there. Thats one of the reasons Hafeez has been such a critical part of the team in the 2010's
 
I am referring to genuine Test quality all-rounders who can win you a Test match with either bat or ball.

An Abdul Razzaq, Wasim Akram, Imran Khan type cricketer. Where are these types of cricketers and why isn't Pakistan producing them any more?
The answer, to be honest, is a decade worth of Misbah-ul-Haq controlling the national team, with just 2 years from June 2017 to July 2019 when he was not calling the shots.

I'm always clear that there are three types of all-rounder:

1. A Batting all-rounder like Kallis or Stokes, who is a genuine Top Six batsman who can be the fourth seamer.
2. A Bowling all-rounder like Hadlee or Wasim Akram or Johnson who is apace spearhead but sometimes scores runs.
3. A Balanced all-rounder like Imran Khan who can bat at 7 and is at least 3/4 of a batsman and 3/4 of a bowler. Jason Holder is a good example of this: he balances the team but isn't quite as good as the specialist batsmen or bowlers - but the sum of the parts is better than both.

Unfortunately Misbah has made clear all along that an all-rounder must be either good enough to be in the team as a specialist batsman or bowler.

If you look at the likes of Imran Khan, Andrew Flintoff, Jason Holder or Kapil Dev, when they got into the team they didn't meet Misbah's condition of being good enough to be selected as a specialist bowler or batsman. They developed after they were selected, but were first selected when other older options were still better at the specialist roles.

Misbah would not have picked Jason Holder instead of Darren Sammy, and he wouldn't have picked either ahead of Tino Best or Kemar Roach. He wouldn't have picked Kapil Dev ahead of Karsan Ghavri.

Like you, I doubt that Amad Butt is good enough. But I just don't see why he couldn't be in a 29 man squad to England to see how he develops with 8 weeks in the nets against the best players. But Misbah on principle won't pick him unless he's either a better bowler than Sohail Khan or a better batsman than Fawad Alam - and so no young pace bowling all-rounder can emerge.

In the absence of a pace bowling all-rounder at Number 7, and with Mohammad Rizwan clearly good enough to bat at Number 6, I would automatically go for s spin-bowling all-rounder at Number 7 - either Shadab Khan or Imad Wasim. But again, Misbah argues that Shadab isn't a better batsman than Fawad, and that Yasir Shah is a better bowler than Shadab, so we end up stuck with 6 batsmen, Rizwan at 7 and just 4 bowlers and only 3 quicks, all of whom are quickly exhausted and down on pace.

So Misbah keeps picking teams with too many specialists, fails to notice that he has four Number 11's, and presides over endless collapses in SENA.

I look att her current squad and can't see how you can avoid picking Shadab at 7 and Faheem at 8. But I also don't see how you can pick Abbas AND Shaheen AND Naseem, because if you do, 7 out is all out!
 
Quality allrounders are very rare in general not only for Pakistan but for all teams.

Since I started watching cricket since 1990, i have only seen Akram, Razzaq, Mehmood, Afridi & Imad

That is like 5 allrounders in 30 odd years, meaning on average you have to wait 6 years till the next one is produced. The next one is due now. I did see some shades in Shadab but he has gone downhill
 
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I was thinking the same.

After Imran, we have Wasim Akram then later on Abdur Razzaq, Razzaq was playing when we found one in M Amir, But unfortunately he lost his 5 years and so he didn't developed into a decent All-rounder.

We may found someone in U19 in future, but now there is no one in domestics.

Shows your knowledge about our domestic cricket. Ever heard of Hasan Mohsin, Aamer Yamin, Amad Butt, Ali Imran? The problem id Misbah. He will always choose Faheem Ashraf
 
Good bowling all rounders are rare . You need bold captain to bring out batting potential of a bowler , you need to give them opportunity by pushing them up the order sometimes .
 
The names being mentioned as current pace-bowling all-rounders are nowhere near international class.

How our standards have dropped in recent times.
 
You see a young guy like Imad Wasim with such appalling fitness even though he is paid very well by the PCB and has access to all the facilities needed to have an athlete's fitness. Pakistani players don't have the work ethic of international players which is why they have fallen behind.
 
Aamer Yamin was discarded too early. His bowling was nothing to rave about, probably on the same level as Colin De Grandhomme, but his batting was actually pretty decent.
 
You see a young guy like Imad Wasim with such appalling fitness even though he is paid very well by the PCB and has access to all the facilities needed to have an athlete's fitness. Pakistani players don't have the work ethic of international players which is why they have fallen behind.

Well for starters, he’s not young at all. He will be turning 32 this December. Most players his age at supreme fitness would still not carry on too many years beyond this.

However, in the Pakistan team, he will be kept around for the 2023 world cup by which time he will be 34 and a half. I have posted in previous threads before that we need to develop another spinner in his stead. My fear is that he will coast by on above-par performances in limited overs, and bully average teams in subcontinental conditions, as well as on the idea that “Imad was a clutch player in the 2019 world cup especially against Afghanistan” (he was).

My fear is that he will show up with disappointing fitness, perform in a game or two, and hog a spot in the rest of the WC games, much like Hafeez or Shoaib Malik.

Pakistan subjects itself to an endless cycle. The time is now for a strong hand at the helm — by hook or by crook, Babar, Misbah, or dare I say Shadab — someone needs to make the tough call and do what Dhoni did between 2007-2011 to the Indian team, Ganguly between 2000-2003, or England between 2015-2019.

It is a tough call, no doubt. Imad is a team man, a well liked figure both in the dressing room and by fans, and perhaps well respected by the juniors in the dressing room. These aspects would have made him an excellent limited overs captain once upon a time, if he had put in the energy but also if his own seniors in Misbah, Azhar, and Sarfaraz hadn’t hogged up that role. Now, it is his turn to hog the spot (even if not as a captain, hogging a spot in the playing XI nonetheless).

And so the cycle continues.
 
Fahim Ashtaf to me is only a bowler who can slog once a while.
PCB must invest on someone else, maybe Amad Butt or anyone from u19.
 
Fahim Ashtaf to me is only a bowler who can slog once a while.
PCB must invest on someone else, maybe Amad Butt or anyone from u19.

Ammad butt would be good in odis and t20s but hes more batting all rounder were fahim is bowling all rounder
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Azhar Ali "we need to find an all-rounder at the number 7 position if we are to compete against teams outside of Asia" <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/EngvPak?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#EngvPak</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1292161566339735552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 8, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
The answer, to be honest, is a decade worth of Misbah-ul-Haq controlling the national team, with just 2 years from June 2017 to July 2019 when he was not calling the shots.

I'm always clear that there are three types of all-rounder:

1. A Batting all-rounder like Kallis or Stokes, who is a genuine Top Six batsman who can be the fourth seamer.
2. A Bowling all-rounder like Hadlee or Wasim Akram or Johnson who is apace spearhead but sometimes scores runs.
3. A Balanced all-rounder like Imran Khan who can bat at 7 and is at least 3/4 of a batsman and 3/4 of a bowler. Jason Holder is a good example of this: he balances the team but isn't quite as good as the specialist batsmen or bowlers - but the sum of the parts is better than both.

Unfortunately Misbah has made clear all along that an all-rounder must be either good enough to be in the team as a specialist batsman or bowler.

If you look at the likes of Imran Khan, Andrew Flintoff, Jason Holder or Kapil Dev, when they got into the team they didn't meet Misbah's condition of being good enough to be selected as a specialist bowler or batsman. They developed after they were selected, but were first selected when other older options were still better at the specialist roles.

Misbah would not have picked Jason Holder instead of Darren Sammy, and he wouldn't have picked either ahead of Tino Best or Kemar Roach. He wouldn't have picked Kapil Dev ahead of Karsan Ghavri.

Like you, I doubt that Amad Butt is good enough. But I just don't see why he couldn't be in a 29 man squad to England to see how he develops with 8 weeks in the nets against the best players. But Misbah on principle won't pick him unless he's either a better bowler than Sohail Khan or a better batsman than Fawad Alam - and so no young pace bowling all-rounder can emerge.

In the absence of a pace bowling all-rounder at Number 7, and with Mohammad Rizwan clearly good enough to bat at Number 6, I would automatically go for s spin-bowling all-rounder at Number 7 - either Shadab Khan or Imad Wasim. But again, Misbah argues that Shadab isn't a better batsman than Fawad, and that Yasir Shah is a better bowler than Shadab, so we end up stuck with 6 batsmen, Rizwan at 7 and just 4 bowlers and only 3 quicks, all of whom are quickly exhausted and down on pace.

So Misbah keeps picking teams with too many specialists, fails to notice that he has four Number 11's, and presides over endless collapses in SENA.

I look att her current squad and can't see how you can avoid picking Shadab at 7 and Faheem at 8. But I also don't see how you can pick Abbas AND Shaheen AND Naseem, because if you do, 7 out is all out!

I fully agree with this. junaids is spot on.
 
"Aamer Yamin and Amad Butt were included before as backups in an all-rounder role for Faheem Ashraf; I had said that before that we needed a bowling all-rounder; Both Amad's and Aamer's bowling form has not been that impressive at the moment" : Mohammad Wasim
 
Who are the upcoming all-rounders in the Pakistan setup? Has PSL unearthed any in the recent seasons?
 
What happened to Faheem Ashraf? Where is he these days?
BBL are picking him but some reason Pakistan aren't
 
You either have the ability to bat but bowl trundle pace

Or you either have the express pace and are a hit and miss batsman

Pakistan are struggling to find the guy who bowls 140+ and can bat in the top 6 on batting ability.
 
Because that's one of the rarest breed in Cricket and not easy to find.
Bits and pieces like stuart binny are dime a dozen, OTOH
 
I am referring to genuine Test quality all-rounders who can win you a Test match with either bat or ball.

An Abdul Razzaq, Wasim Akram, Imran Khan type cricketer. Where are these types of cricketers and why isn't Pakistan producing them any more?

I dont think any country around the world id producing these type of players, heavy schedules are one reason for it. I dont think its just a pakistan problem.
 
Muhammad shehzad is the only one who can be developed.
Big six hitter and bowls 135 kph. They need to work hard on him.
 
Pakistan don’t have the patience to wait when it comes to fast bowlers. They want a readymade Imran and Wasim. That’s my observation.

Only player they have done a good job grooming over the years is Shadab who is a spin-allrounder

Hassan Ali was the toast of the nation a few years back and it is Shaheen now and maybe Naseem tomorrow but one bad spell against India will all it take.

So their best bet is to find a pure batsman with bowling talent and groom him even if he bowls in the 130s early on rather than a 150+ bowler who can bat. They do have good bowling acumen to develop bowlers.
 
Well the upcoming pace "allrounders" are Mo Waseem and Abbas Afridi.

Hasan Ali is a better bat than both ☹️
So there's that...
 
Except Nz and Saf and to some extent Eng no country is producing top quality allrounders and even those mentioned countries half baked allrounders who can only play ODI and T20.
 
No pace bowling all round has been found dincev and Azhar Mahmood retired.Genuine allrounders are like gold dust but I will be happy if someone can bowls around 135kph and score 25+ runs in LOIs.
 
A fast bowling all rounder is what Pakistan needs..... stop talking about a spin all rounder .... its only fast bowler who can bat like Abdul Razzaq....
 
If we put simple filters of min 500 runs + 25 wkts and batting avg 20+ and bowling avg 40-

In full history of subcontinent test players only 15 players are there who meet cutoff

Pak - Imran, Wasim, Razzaq, Azhar, Mudassar, Asif Iqbal

India - Kapil, Irfan, Bhuvi, Prabhakar, Ghavri, Lala Amarnath, Binny

Sri Lanka - Vaas, Ratnayeke

Similiar filters on SENAWZ players reveal 67 players who qualify cutoff.

Our region is geared towards producing spin allrounders and not medium pace allrounders. Even the average ones that popup like Faheem, Thakur etc. are major outliers.
 
It comes down to willpower. There are players like Hassan Ali who if he had the will power and mentality could be a very useful and dependable lower order bat. If he wants it enough he could transition in to an all rounder in the mould if Razzi. But his approach is all wrong, he’s got ability but he still bats like a tailender.

Faheem is the closest thing we’ve got but he is a case 2 steps forward and 3 steps back. I thought he turned a corner in the kiwi series a couple of years ago but he’s gone backwards again.

But we do need to chance it with a few players like Amad Butt etc. see if they sink or swim
 
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