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Will Ravichandran Ashwin overtake Anil Kumble to become India's best ever spin bowler?

What I meant is Average about 30 there in the future and not overall. Two overseas tours and his average has taken a beating beyond repair.
The reason why lyon does well in Aus and not Asia is he bowls the same way in Asia as he does in Australia.
In places like Australia flight and bounce are paramount to your success whereas in Asia turn and accuracy will do the trick.
I think for Asia he flights the ball too much and gets carted around as a result. Also he doesn't have a carrom ball or a ball that goes the other way. In Asia variations are important. Case in point Ashwin's dismissal of devilliers in the 2nd innings at Nagpur.
Also Aussie pacers are ineffective in Asia which adds to the pressure. In Australia he plays the role of a support bowler whereas in Asia he has to play the role of their main bowler, it involves a complete change of mindset.

Yeah makes sense. Great post. He just needs a bit of tweaks. He has done the hardwork of learning to flight and turn it. He now has to know how to adjust his flight-turn-speed combo for different situations and think of himself as the main guy in SC conditions.

Whenever I look at him, I see no logic in him failing in SC. If he really wants, he can turn it around cos he has got the tools. He may not average incredible in SC without a good support spinner or great pacers who do well in SC but he will likely do way better.
 
It really isn't easy. I expect him to do better in India next time if he tours.
He would have to change his bowling style in Asia and draw his experiences from the previous tours.

I would hope he improves, but I have hoped all our players would improve in Asia and really since Ponting's generation nobody has improved in Asia from tour to tour. Same mistakes, same mindset, no learning.
 
I would hope he improves, but I have hoped all our players would improve in Asia and really since Ponting's generation nobody has improved in Asia from tour to tour. Same mistakes, same mindset, no learning.
TBH except Alan Davidson and co. in 50s 60s and Mcgrath in last era even Aussie legends have either skipped India or struggled here.

One of the reasons i hold Davidson in very high regard.Higher than Lillee.
 
Ashwin's stats in Australia is often brought up to highlight his inadequacies. Granted, he didn't set the stage alight in Australia. He has been ordinary there. But so has each and everyone who has toured Aus in the recent period.

If you look at the records for spin bowlers in Aus in the last 5 years, they paint a sorry picture. Australia is literally the graveyard for spinners. Either that is due to the lack of quality spinners or the nature of the drop in pitches is debatable.

Ashwin is the leading wicket taker for the last 5 years in Aus (excluding Aus). He has taken 21 wickets in the specified time period. But he averages around 50 from 6 matches.

Swann during the same period averages 64 from the same 6 matches but has taken just 13 wickets.

Dan Vettori averages 42 from the single match he played and took 2 wickets in that match.

Mark Craig averages 64 from 3 matches.

Herath is the only one who has a decent record, averaging 34 from 3 matches.

So Ashwin hasn't been alone in having ordinary stats in Aus. The likes of Swann have got demolished in Aus.

Also, Ashwin has transformed into a totally different bowler since his last tour from Aus. Previously he was trying too much variations like t20 cricket and it didn't end up well for him. He has since then learnt to bowl slow and stick to his stock delivery and concentrates more on flight and drift while using his variations like the carrom ball sparingly. And the change was evident in the world cup in Aus.

He averaged 21 from 6 matches at an economy of 3.80 per over. Obviously these are different formats, but still that is a very good performance on the Australian tracks.

And in tests, he has phenomenal stats since the WC. He had an excellent tour in SL and Bangladesh.

I won't be surprised if he improves greatly his performances when he tours overseas next time.
 
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Ashwin's stats in Australia is often brought up to highlight his inadequacies. Granted, he didn't set the stage alight in Australia. He has been ordinary there. But so has each and everyone who has toured Aus in the recent period.

If you look at the records for spin bowlers in Aus in the last 5 years, they paint a sorry picture. Australia is literally the graveyard for spinners. Either that is due to the lack of quality spinners or the nature of the drop in pitches is debatable.

Ashwin is the leading wicket taker for the last 5 years in Aus (excluding Aus). He has taken 21 wickets in the specified time period. But he averages around 50 from 6 matches.

Swann during the same period averages 64 from the same 6 matches but has taken just 13 wickets.

Dan Vettori averages 42 from the single match he played and took 2 wickets in that match.

Mark Craig averages 64 from 3 matches.

Herath is the only one who has a decent record, averaging 34 from 3 matches.

So Ashwin hasn't been alone in having ordinary stats in Aus. The likes of Swann have got demolished in Aus.

Also, Ashwin has transformed into a totally different bowler since his last tour from Aus. Previously he was trying too much variations like t20 cricket and it didn't end up well for him. He has since then learnt to bowl slow and stick to his stock delivery and concentrates more on flight and drift while using his variations like the carrom ball sparingly. And the change was evident in the world cup in Aus.

He averaged 21 from 6 matches at an economy of 3.80 per over. Obviously these are different formats, but still that is a very good performance on the Australian tracks.

And in tests, he has phenomenal stats since the WC. He had an excellent tour in SL and Bangladesh.

I won't be surprised if he improves greatly his performances when he tours overseas next time.

Very good post. Someone like Ajmal for example averaged 111 and 60 in Aus and NZ. These are some of the worst conditions for spin bowlers and people seem to be judging Ashwin based on that.
 
Yeah makes sense. Great post. He just needs a bit of tweaks. He has done the hardwork of learning to flight and turn it. He now has to know how to adjust his flight-turn-speed combo for different situations and think of himself as the main guy in SC conditions.

Whenever I look at him, I see no logic in him failing in SC. If he really wants, he can turn it around cos he has got the tools. He may not average incredible in SC without a good support spinner or great pacers who do well in SC but he will likely do way better.

Yeah needs to anaylze his game and learn from previous tours. No reason why he can't do well.
Also India aren't good against spin these days, so you can expect a much better performance next time.
 
Kumble 619 @29
Ashwin 401 @25

Ashwin is starting to get ahead now. Ashwin still has 2 good test years in him. If he can maintain form , soon there won't be an question on who better of the 2.
 
Ravichandra Ashwin vs Anil Kumble - Who is India's Greatest Spinner

No doubt Ashwin given his batting record is overall a better cricketer. But who would you pick as spinner.

Both of them are very dangerous in home conditions, Ashwin perhaps more deadly, while Kumble has a moderately better away record.

Who would you pick?
 
Bishen Singh Bedi is India's greatest spinner ever

Statistically speaking it is is Chandrasekhar

My personal favorite however is Erapali Prasanna spinner

All 3 of the above bowler together at one point. It was the golden era of spin bowling
 
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Anil Kumble.

His 8-fer Vs GOAT Australian batting lineup of all-time on a flat wicket away from home is the best performance by a spinner away from home followed by Chandra's performance in England in 1971.

Moreover, Kumble has 600+ test wickets and hence shouldn't be compared with other guys who have about 200 wickets but at similar average.
 
Bishen Singh Bedi is India's greatest spinner ever

Statistically speaking it is is Chandrasekhar

My personal favorite however is Erapali Prasanna spinner

All 3 of the above bowler together at one point. It was the golden era of spin bowling

All are great spinners but frankly none of them even got 300 wickets, which you would consider a sort of benchmark of longevity when assessing quality, especially compared to spinners who got over 500 and 400 respectively.
 
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All are great spinners but frankly none of them even got 300 wickets, which you would consider a sort of benchmark of longevity when assessing quality, especially compared to spinners who got over 500 and 400 respectively.

Not really fair on that generation of spinners who debuted in 60s and had their career done by the end of 70s. India didn't play enough matches then. Those three spinners kept their consistency right till the end of their careers which is the better metric. If they played enough matches they'd have comfortably ended with a wicket tally close to 350-400. Their legacy lies in the fact India occupied the number 1 rank for the first time in 70s and had their best decade in tests.
 
Kumble is still the number one spinner once you normalize for the bowling attack India fielded and the pitches they played on - particularly the decade of 2000, flat pitches everywhere.

OTOH, Ashwin isn't done yet. He can go on for 3 more years and if he ends with 550+ wickets and contributes meaningfully to overseas success then he would comfortably be the greatest spinner after Murali and Warne.
 
Not really fair on that generation of spinners who debuted in 60s and had their career done by the end of 70s. India didn't play enough matches then. Those three spinners kept their consistency right till the end of their careers which is the better metric. If they played enough matches they'd have comfortably ended with a wicket tally close to 350-400. Their legacy lies in the fact India occupied the number 1 rank for the first time in 70s and had their best decade in tests.

It may not be fair but at the end of the day we assess cricketers for what they actually achieved. Unless their record was markedly superior to Kumble's and Ashwin's, enough to disregard the actual disparity in their total wickets.
 
It may not be fair but at the end of the day we assess cricketers for what they actually achieved. Unless their record was markedly superior to Kumble's and Ashwin's, enough to disregard the actual disparity in their total wickets.

Blatantly not true. For example, Len Hutton is still rated by the ENG fans and establishment as their finest opener despite scoring less than 7000 runs. Plenty of such examples.
 
Besides, it's not like Bedi or Prasanna didn't take enough wickets. One took 266 and the other 242...my guess is only trueman and lillee from that era took more wickets than them. So once again, cannot judge based on absolute figures at all.
 
Blatantly not true. For example, Len Hutton is still rated by the ENG fans and establishment as their finest opener despite scoring less than 7000 runs. Plenty of such examples.

Hutton played 79 matches and scored nearly 7000 runs, that is a considerable output to judge someone. Greg Chappell made around the same.

And Hutton and Jack Hobbs averaged nearly 57, far superior to any other English opener to come after them.
 
Besides, it's not like Bedi or Prasanna didn't take enough wickets. One took 266 and the other 242...my guess is only trueman and lillee from that era took more wickets than them. So once again, cannot judge based on absolute figures at all.

The problem is that we cannot judge them with the wickets they took, it is that Kumble and Ashwin have similar if not better records yet took over double the wickets they did. Surely that has to count for something.
 
The problem is that we cannot judge them with the wickets they took, it is that Kumble and Ashwin have similar if not better records yet took over double the wickets they did. Surely that has to count for something.

I'll choose Ashwin and Kumble ahead of them myself. But implying that they were in anyway less than these two doesn't sit well with me. Chandra, Bedi and Prasanna dominated the bowling scene in their era as comprehensively as Kumble and Ashwin have done in their own. The three of them were among the top 10 wicket takers in the decade of 60s and 70s. And hauled India to the top of rankings. Absolutely top tier for me.

But yes, if I am forced to choose among them, I'd go for Kumble and most likely Ashwin once he's done with his career. But only because they got more opportunities and hence boast of a bigger body of work.
 
Kumble is still the number one spinner once you normalize for the bowling attack India fielded and the pitches they played on - particularly the decade of 2000, flat pitches everywhere.

OTOH, Ashwin isn't done yet. He can go on for 3 more years and if he ends with 550+ wickets and contributes meaningfully to overseas success then he would comfortably be the greatest spinner after Murali and Warne.

Personally, I think even a spinner like Graeme Swann is superior to Ashwin though to be fair Ashwin will end up getting ranked higher. Swann was better in different conditions, and if he played as many matches in the subcontinent, he would have done very well also.
 
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Personally, I think even a spinner like Graeme Swann is superior to Ashwin though to be fair Ashwin will end up getting ranked higher. Swann was better in different conditions, and if he played as many matches in the subcontinent, he would have done very well also.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here talking up Swann with a measly 60 test and a wicket tally similar to Bedi and Chandra?

How can you not rate Chandra ahead of Ashwin and Kumble and then in the same breath talk Swann up?

Chandra has done better than Swann in most away conditions, has a similar average and a SR that is actually superior if you normalize for eras.

I actually rate Swann but he's not even present on Ashwin's rear view mirror. Daylight between them.
 
Kumble by a country mile, he also makes a great case for India’s best pacer to
 
Aren't you contradicting yourself here talking up Swann with a measly 60 test and a wicket tally similar to Bedi and Chandra?

How can you not rate Chandra ahead of Ashwin and Kumble and then in the same breath talk Swann up?

Chandra has done better than Swann in most away conditions, has a similar average and a SR that is actually superior if you normalize for eras.

I actually rate Swann but he's not even present on Ashwin's rear view mirror. Daylight between them.

Yes, I acknowledge that Ashwin has overtaken Swann.
 
Anil Kumble.

His 8-fer Vs GOAT Australian batting lineup of all-time on a flat wicket away from home is the best performance by a spinner away from home followed by Chandra's performance in England in 1971.

Moreover, Kumble has 600+ test wickets and hence shouldn't be compared with other guys who have about 200 wickets but at similar average.

This.

What are Ashwin's figures in SENA now?
 
Id say its chandra tbh He seems to have the most rounded stats when it comes to all the indian spinners Decent home and away and a spinner who was a strike bowler

The likes of ashwin and kumble are really poor away from home tbh
 
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