Would Imran Khan and Richard Hadlee together make a stronger all-time Test XI?

[Harsh Thakor]

Here I wish to discuss whether in an all-time xi the inclusion of Richard Hadlee and Imran Khan together instead of other names like Marshall,Mcgrath,Akram ,Lillee etc would make it a stronger team.




Gavaskar/Barry Richards
Hobbs
Bradman
Viv Richards
Tendulkar/Lara
Sobers
Gilchrist
Wasim
Warne
Marshall /Imran
Lillee/Mcgrath/Hadlee

If I included Hadlee and Imran I would remove Lillee or Mcgrath and Marshall.I would retain Wasim for his left-arm variety.This team would have better bating with Imran at 6 and Hadlee at 7 and combine the control and accuracy of Hadlee with the pace and movement of Imran and Wasim.Alternatively if Marshall was included and Wasim excluded it would have a paceman bestowing every quality needed for the complete paceman.

In the end would a team with Hadlee,Imran and Wasim overpower one with Lillee,Marshall and Mcgrath?The batting skills of the former may come to the fore.Or would a team with Marshal,Imran and Hadlee overpower one with Wasim,Lillee and Mcgrath?

 

[Robert]

Take out Wasim, push Imran up to #8.

Hadley had a mental weakness in that when the ball was getting smashed, he would go into his shell. Then again, he would get you regular fast fifties and seventies.

But with a top seven like that do you really need lower order runs?

 

[Justcrazy]

To be honest Akram does not deserve to be in the all time XI

I would have Imran , Marshall , Donald plus Warner.

 

[Chrish]

Gavaskar
Barry Richards
Bradman
Sachin
Viv
Sobers
Gilchrist
Warne
Marshall
Steyn
McGrath

 

[Chrish]

In fact I would drop Gilchrist and replace with Knott. With the batting talent available to be, I can afford to play the best specialist keeper.

 

[The Googly]

Bradman
Greenidge
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Imran
Gilchrist
Wasim
Marshall
Warne
Holding

 

[The Googly]

2nd X1

Gavaskar
Haynes
Tendulkar
G chappel
Miandad
Sangakarra
Hadlee
Lillee
Waqar
Murali
Saqlain

 

[Chrish]

Greenidge or Haynes have no place in all time test Xi..

 

[PakLFC]

IK and Richard can't both play in the same team as they occupy the same spot. It depends on conditions as to who would be in my team.

 

[Justcrazy]

People picking Wasim just because he was left armer are not doing justice. You need to pick the best in business instead of left or right.

The fast bowlers in history who are ahead of Wasim are

Imran , Lilliee , Donald, Holding, macGrath , Styen , marshall

 

[The_Odd_One]

Miller and Imran will be a better combination than Imran and Hadlee.

1. Hobbs
2. Gavaskar
3. Bradman
4. Tendulkar
5. Sobers
6. Gilchrist
7. Miller
8. Imran
9. Marshall
10. Warne
11. Lillee

I don't think any team can beat this one.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Miller and Imran will be a better combination than Imran and Hadlee.

1. Hobbs
2. Gavaskar
3. Bradman
4. Tendulkar
5. Sobers
6. Gilchrist
7. Miller
8. Imran
9. Marshall
10. Warne
11. Lillee

I don't think any team can beat this one.

Great team.I admire your selection but would still prefer including Wasim for variety instead of Miller or Imran.Congragulate you for selecting Lillee unlike many pakpassion members who virtually have boycotted him.Lille to me was an equal at least of Marshall and the most complete right arm seamer ever.In a test team may replace Tendulkar with Lara.Why not Viv Richards?Appreciate your choices again .

 

[Junaids]

How about:

1 Barry Richards
2 Sunil Gavaskar
3 Sir Don Bradman
4 Sir Viv Richards
5 Sir Garry Sobers
6 Kumar Sangakkara (wk)
7 Imran Khan (c)
8 Malcolm Marshall
9 Alan Davidson
10 Shane Warne
11 Dennis Lillee

 

[Hawkeye]

People picking Wasim just because he was left armer are not doing justice. You need to pick the best in business instead of left or right.

The fast bowlers in history who are ahead of Wasim are

Imran , Lilliee , Donald, Holding, macGrath , Styen , marshall

Which he was.

Clearly shows your lack of knowledge on bowling.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

How about:

1 Barry Richards
2 Sunil Gavaskar
3 Sir Don Bradman
4 Sir Viv Richards
5 Sir Garry Sobers
6 Kumar Sangakkara (wk)
7 Imran Khan (c)
8 Malcolm Marshall
9 Alan Davidson
10 Shane Warne
11 Dennis Lillee

Can't believe Davidson instead of Akram?Wasim greatest left arm paceman of all.Otherwise great team.I would prefer Lara in test team with his phenomenally ability to single handedly carry matches on his shoulders and register mammoth scores.See Lara's average percentage scored out of team's total,Tendulkar had more longevity but Viv could turn the complexion of a game more than any batsmen ever.Still not completely tested in a crisis as Lara.Good selection of Sunny Gavaskar ,Lillee and Barry yRichards.
Please reply on merits of Lara or Tendulkar and why Akram excluded.Again Great team generally.

 

[Justcrazy]

Which he was.

Clearly shows your lack of knowledge on bowling.

How was Wasim better in test matches than Lillie , marshal , styen , Donald , MaGrath in Test ?

 

[The_Odd_One]

Great team.I admire your selection but would still prefer including Wasim for variety instead of Miller or Imran.Congragulate you for selecting Lillee unlike many pakpassion members who virtually have boycotted him.Lille to me was an equal at least of Marshall and the most complete right arm seamer ever.In a test team may replace Tendulkar with Lara.Why not Viv Richards?Appreciate your choices again .

There was a place for one of Viv and Lara, though I would have picked Lara over Viv in tests as he was a better player of spin bowling. Sobers and Gilchrist are already dynamic batsmen who can take the game away from the opposition in a few overs, so Viv's selection would be redundant.

Tendulkar got selected because he was a runs-machine and the safest option to go with regardless of the pitch conditions. Lara played better knocks but he was highly inconsistent.

I selected Miller because his stats look similar to Imran's but he was actually a much better batsman, though Imran was a much superior bowler. This combination does not compromise on batting strength and it gives you a reliable 5th bowling option. I will not use Sobers as medium pacer, he is more useful as a second spinner if need arises.

Long story short, you can't really go wrong with any of the top tier ATGs.

 

[Ted123]

@Buffet , what’s your take on this?

Hadlee is rated so high as an ATG fast bowler but during his era, the top two teams were Windies and Pakistan.

His record there,

In WI - Avg 27
In Pak - Avg 44

Since we are giving more value to away performance vs top teams, how can Hadlee be rated among top 5 fast bowlers of all time with mediocre and poor returns in two top countries during his era?

 

[anikrc1]

27 against that west indies team. Is. Very good.

 

[Buffet]

WI is a good one
Pak is poor.

But it's always better to take an aggregate top 5 sides to make a judgement. Think about it for a minute, you can do poor against one side then you have to do drastically better against other sides to make up to get the same low bowling avg. You can't count only negative, you have to count positives as well. So when you take top 5 tests sides, it allows for a much larger sample size and also all kinds of oppositions and pitches and all that.

Taking just 1 or 2 can skew differently due to some one just doing better against one team and not doing that well against other top teams. Or some one having played very little against one team and so on. Dev averages 23 in WI, but hardly means that it will be seen in isolation to judge his greatness. He is rightly not seen as ATG pacer. If he is supposed to be that great against one then what happened to him when he faced other top teams. Clearly, you have to judge with 4-5 teams otherwise you get noise when judging quality in negative and positive both directions.


Top 5 test sides during his career:


Pacers away record in tests involving top 5 sides in same period: sorted by Avg


Pacers away record in tests involving top 5 sides in same period: sorted by 5-fers



5-fers in away win in test involving top 5 sides:



Hadlee teams had W/L of only 0.6. That's poor team and not a very strong team. Something like current era SL/Pak. So he had no support and yet in away against top sides his record is,

Avg 23 , 172 wickets , 17 5-fers, 5 5-fers in win

How high will you rate some one from SL/Pak right now having similar record. Safe to say among the best and near the top in history.

Lone warrior has advanatge and disadvantage both. Lone warrior can pick more wickets, but avg and SR is likely to go down because opposition will plan to see you off and not take risk against you. Contrast will be WI bowling unit at that time. You can't just see off anyone, that won't work if you have great support.

Record against WI is a good one. Not bad. For pakistan it is a poor record with 3 tests, but as I said if you can still have a brilliant over all away record against good teams then you do have to do far far better than others to compensate against other teams due to goofing it up against one team. If you get penalized for one then you should get credit for being outstanding against others as well. So it balances out when you take the top 5 teams together. That reflects good and bad both against top sides.

I have never pointed out against one country to define greatness. You got to take aggregage against top sides. If you fail there then you do go a tier lower due to sample size being large vaiety and size.

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Most pacers have some flaws if you start looking small slices. For example, McGrath for all his reputation has just 1, yes just 1, 5-fer in Asia despite having such a long career. Imagine a Asian pacer or batsman with one 5-fer or 1 ton outside Asia. Yes, those players can have good avg, but will it go down well? I don't think it will go down well. Not taking 5-fers shows that bowler lacked the ability to run thorugh batting line up.

Having said that, you have to look at MCGrath's away record against top oppositions taken together and he rises to the top. Hard job is to do well against good team and it's even harder to do it in their den. It's hardest job for any test cricketer. But we shouldn't judge based on one country. We should take top 5 test nations to eliminate noise in both directions. Dev's noise was in positive direction due to donig well in WI and Hadlee noise is in negative direction due to doing poorly in Pak. But when we take top 5 sides together class difference is obvious.

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Looking at everything, Hadlee should belong among the top 5 pacers.