Would Virat Kohli's average be worse with a worse batting order?

[akmalfamilyfan]

There is no doubt in my mind that Kohli is an ATG.

Saying that, to me it seems like in most of his career, he has had an absolute monster batting order to back him up. Say if your openers manage to consistently put up century stands at high strike rates or etc. it is much easier to bat. On top of that, when Kohli is out in the middle his partners are usually very good or aggressive batsmen eg. Sharma, Dhoni. Using these resources around him I have seen Kohli many times take the anchor role and avoid risks. After he has built up confidence and got his eye in, he goes out and hits the ball. What would Kohli's average and reputation be if he was to, say bat with the Pakistani or Sri Lankan order.

This is not to take away from his batting skill or record. He's an impeccable player in every regard. I just think this conversation will be very interesting from minds that are much more knowledgable than me in cricket.

(Kohli's partner in batting skill and looks)

 

[Mamoon]

We need to talk about your username.

 

[Buffet]

Indian batting hasn't really been monster when he has started scoring runs in the last few years. Otherwise Indians may have won series in SA and Eng.

 

[cricketindiafan]

Check stats of what happened on our last tours of Aus, SA and Eng.

 

[Sam99]

I guess you are talking about odis and ofcourse if you send kohli in current Australian side then his avg will fall and more imp he won't be able to win as much match as he does for india. His 120-130 helps when there is someone else to play attacking role for most time.

 

[akmalfamilyfan]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

Lol, I understand all 3 of the brothers are not great cricketers in any regard. I am just a very big fan of them, even the youngest Adnan. My favorite being the oldest in Kami Akmal, his drives were made of silk even though I probably am a better wicket keeper. Just have a lot of fun watching all of them play.

 

[akmalfamilyfan]

[MENTION=145370]Sam99[/MENTION]

Yes, sorry I meant to mention this was mostly regarding the ODI format. Why would his average fall if he was in the Aus team? (I am not doubting it just genuinely don't know why). Aus batting +Warnie and S. Smith, I think would let Kohli still score at a similar rate to what he does now.

But for example if he played in the Pakistan team I think his ODI hundreds would drop by a good margin and his average might be 55ish (Or even lower). Hundreds would be hard to come by with every wicket falling around him like dominos and the bowling restricting other teams to smaller outcomes.

Although this is all conjecture and may be way off lol.

 

[Ab Fan]

[MENTION=145370]Sam99[/MENTION]

Yes, sorry I meant to mention this was mostly regarding the ODI format. Why would his average fall if he was in the Aus team? (I am not doubting it just genuinely don't know why). Aus batting +Warnie and S. Smith, I think would let Kohli still score at a similar rate to what he does now.

But for example if he played in the Pakistan team I think his ODI hundreds would drop by a good margin and his average might be 55ish (Or even lower). Hundreds would be hard to come by with every wicket falling around him like dominos and the bowling restricting other teams to smaller outcomes.

Although this is all conjecture and may be way off lol.

Since, you are talking about ODI, you also have to look into how Kohli carried the Indian ODI team during that 2012-2014 phase back when Sehwag, Tendulkar, Yuvraj were done as players and they were replaced by Shikhar, Sharmaji and Rahane. His innings in Asia Cup, Hobart one and quite a few other run-chases, like the one in which India were 4 down and he went on to chase 350 or something were phenomenal.

Now, he has Rohit and Dhawan but outside the top 3, it is again all doom.

 

[Sam99]

Since, you are talking about ODI, you also have to look into how Kohli carried the Indian ODI team during that 2012-2014 phase back when Sehwag, Tendulkar, Yuvraj were done as players and they were replaced by Shikhar, Sharmaji and Rahane. His innings in Asia Cup, Hobart one and quite a few other run-chases, like the one in which India were 4 down and he went on to chase 350 or something were phenomenal.

Now, he has Rohit and Dhawan but outside the top 3, it is again all doom.

In 2013 both Dhawan & Rohit had more runs than kohli and played imp role too in ct but my point was not just kohli any player would struggle with wickets going quickly from other end. In current indian side there there is always someone who supports kohli.

 

[akmalfamilyfan]

[MENTION=139595]Ab Fan[/MENTION]

I have never doubted Kohli's overall talent or skill as a player, even saying he's a shoe in ATG. But I mean to talk specifically about these times in which he is spoilt for choice and talent in the line up. From his debut to 2012 he averaged a good 51, and now since 2016 he has been averaging 94. This average since 2016 is not even human whatsoever. Don Bradman averaged that in test matches forget ODI's. But I don't think this average at such a big strike rate of around 100 would be possible with worse batting line ups. I think in this period if he played for Pakistan he may have averaged 60s or 70s, which is still phenomenal by any regard. But it would still be considerably lower than his current. I think it is nearly impossible to argue his stats would not be worse with a Pak batting line up.

 

[gazza619]

Using your logic would raise so many question marks on greats who played in stronger teams.

But I wouldnt worry about it tbh. A great player is a player who has a great record and wins you matches.

I think if Kohli had played in a weaker team, he still would have averaged the same, the only difference is that India would have been more on the losing side. You can take Sachin’s record for example. He was on the top of his game in the 90s but India’s record wasnt great.

 

[Ab Fan]

In 2013 both Dhawan & Rohit had more runs than kohli and played imp role too in ct but my point was not just kohli any player would struggle with wickets going quickly from other end. In current indian side there there is always someone who supports kohli.

I checked and while there was not much difference, Kohli still scored more runs than either of two and they had similar avg for the year, Kohli and Rohit both 52 and Dhawan 50. Don't remember much from Rohit in 2013 CT, he averaged 35 there but yes in CT, Dhawan and Jadeja played more important roles than Kohli. However, overall, Kohli carried that lineup, during that phase before Rohit and Dhawan joined him.

 

[Ab Fan]

[MENTION=139595]Ab Fan[/MENTION]

I have never doubted Kohli's overall talent or skill as a player, even saying he's a shoe in ATG. But I mean to talk specifically about these times in which he is spoilt for choice and talent in the line up. From his debut to 2012 he averaged a good 51, and now since 2016 he has been averaging 94. This average since 2016 is not even human whatsoever. Don Bradman averaged that in test matches forget ODI's. But I don't think this average at such a big strike rate of around 100 would be possible with worse batting line ups. I think in this period if he played for Pakistan he may have averaged 60s or 70s, which is still phenomenal by any regard. But it would still be considerably lower than his current. I think it is nearly impossible to argue his stats would not be worse with a Pak batting line up.

Of course, that average might have hit if he was part of a worse batting lineup, no doubts on it. But it is pointless to debate on such small phases and the probable result if during that phase, he had a poor top order.

 

[Sam99]

I checked and while there was not much difference, Kohli still scored more runs than either of two and they had similar avg for the year, Kohli and Rohit both 52 and Dhawan 50. Don't remember much from Rohit in 2013 CT, he averaged 35 there but yes in CT, Dhawan and Jadeja played more important roles than Kohli. However, overall, Kohli carried that lineup, during that phase before Rohit and Dhawan joined him.

Rohit didn't do great like dhawan in ct but his partnership with shikhar was important in whole ct 2013.

 

[akmalfamilyfan]

[MENTION=131470]gazza619[/MENTION]

Yes there are just so many factors I think way beyond stats when discussing best players. So it is almost always impossible to judge ATGs that are close to each other. The only thing that can set them apart is their longevity and general consensus. But don't you think if Kohli was put into very very tough batting positions much more often, situations such as coming in the first 5-10 overs in ODI's consistently when the run rate is also very slow, would lower his average? He would have to take many more risks and handle all the pressure early on, to add to this his partners would be a walking circus (reference to Pak team). Even though he is one of the most brilliant batsmen in history, I think it is very hard to argue that his record wouldn't be as great. Right now I have seen him many times just rotate strike and hit the odd bad ball while Rohit/Shikhar take big risks and hit 6s till they get it. This post is mostly in reference to the past 3-4 years. Would like to know the opinion of a very experienced poster.

 

[Rayyman]

One thing I see about Kohli, is he is rated way above Root, KW and Smith in ODIs. His stats say he is way ahead, but as a player he is not. As OP has stated, he has the advantage of a strong batting lineup, to add to that, flat pitches galore and way more matches. People also say that Root, KW and Smith aren't world-class hitters, but neither is Kohli. They are all accumulators. This is why I rate ABD over Kohli. He is simply a more complete player.

 

[IAJ]

Kohli ki jaan chordh dou yaar, chotey chotey keedhe nikalney ka koi faiyda nahi jitni bhi koshish kar lou. He is the best batsman in the world, the end, full stop finale!

 

[kingusama92]

He'd put up the same numbers but they'd lose more.

 

[rhony]

Look at India's tests vs ODIs. India wins more in ODIs because Kohli has company. They lose tests abroad because he is alone. Cricket after all is a team game.

Would Viv Richards be great if he hadnt played for that ATG WI team? Would Ponting be any good if he played for the current Australian team? Would waqar be a great if he didn't have Wasim on the other end? Ditto with Warne and McGrath. There can be superstars that can win you matches in a team setup but they won't be scoring all the runs or take all 10 wickets.

 

[Hasan123]

He has been the main scorer in South Africa and England. Other batsmen haven't turned up and that has played a part in India not winning those series.

 

[topspin]

You could argue the opposite that perhaps his average would have been boosted by not outs. Less tons ofc but when it comes to a batsman as a top tier ATG that what he could easily achieve playing for a minnow.

 

[Tusker]

Look at India's tests vs ODIs. India wins more in ODIs because Kohli has company. They lose tests abroad because he is alone. Cricket after all is a team game

The main reason is our bowlers still cannot take 20 Wkts cheaply. Viv rarely had that problem.

 

[rhony]

The main reason is our bowlers still cannot take 20 Wkts cheaply. Viv rarely had that problem.

If it's tests, India couldnt chase sub 200 scores in SA and Eng in a couple of tests. That's not the bowling's fault. As far as ODIs go, the bowlers are helpless in this era of flat pattas. Indian team can chase anything less than 280 more often than not. And yes, Viv had great batsmen and bowlers in his team.

 

[rhony]

He has been the main scorer in South Africa and England. Other batsmen haven't turned up and that has played a part in India not winning those series.

That should explain how his avg is not impacted by his team. He has high avg in both Tests and ODIs and has support in one and no support in another.

 

[Tusker]

If it's tests, India couldnt chase sub 200 scores in SA and Eng in a couple of tests. That's not the bowling's fault. As far as ODIs go, the bowlers are helpless in this era of flat pattas. Indian team can chase anything less than 280 more often than not. And yes, Viv had great batsmen and bowlers in his team.

200+ on very difficult pitches to bat. Those chases should not have been more than 125-150 runs on those pitches. We had Eng at 87/7 in the 1st Test and then the bowlers and fielders got complacent ..........

 

[Benchwarmer]

I actually read somewhere in the analysis that VK does far better when there is stability at the other end.So yeah he would have to up his scoring rate and won't be able operate in zero risk mode

 

[iPakistani]

He is a great player we have established that, answer the question now.

Of course his average would be lower, if Kohli came out to bat with Imam ul Haq having 3-4 dot balls an over it puts pressure on the other batsman. Or if Imam gets out and on the other end he has sarfraz it will make him struggle much more than when he has excellent batsmen around him.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I actually read somewhere in the analysis that VK does far better when there is stability at the other end.So yeah he would have to up his scoring rate and won't be able operate in zero risk mode

All batsmen need stability, it's that VK is exceptional and makes it count when there's stability. He's still great without stability, has bailed out plenty of times when top order failed in ODIs, and does every other overseas test match.

 

[ind_win]

We need to talk about your username.

I never knew you posted witty posts apart from serious ones....

 

[Raja111]

If he was in the current Aussie side, his avg would increase a lot more as he wouldn't have to face starc, Hazelwood, Cummins. and also could demolish the indian attack on the Aussie pitches.

 

[akmalfamilyfan]

Yes this definitely a very very theoretical and difficult question to answer. And this could be asked about any great player that is true, I believe it should. It is just a very interesting and subjective analysis on the player's skills and era. Such as the Wasim and Waqar conversation is also quite interesting. Although with those two they had both bowled so many completely unplayable deliveries. Who knows that they would have been without the other. But I don't think there is an argument that Kohli would have been still able to average 100 runs with a Pak line up. I believe it would certainly be less, but other people can argue other things.

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

Virat Kohli's statistics vs Australia in Australia.

 

[cricketworm]

You need to actually watch each games where he scored high scores and realize his importance. There is no big difference between playing with strong batting line up and weak. Because in ODis, successful batsmen must make partnerships to have big scores. Rather they make it with batsmen of top orders only, or they make scattered partnerships as your other players are weak and get out early. So, risks are taken usually in powerplays, then middle overs, every batsmen go on safe mode(that doesn't mean you stop scoring, Kohli still thrive to score at run a ball rate) then you start taking risks again in end overs. So weather you play with weak or strong team, it's the timing of the innings decides when you are going to take a risk.

And you look at the big chasing innings by Kohli, you can clearly see how Kohli dictates his inning. There was an interview when Kohli and Rohit scored 150+ runs, where they talked about how Kohli was attacking strike pace bowlers, while Rohit was targeting spinners. So, there is always a plan.

You need to remember that Kohli is playing in the sides with very strong top order, not middle order or low order. So, innings where he scored 100's he had to play around with weak middle and low orders, and it wasn't easy at all.

And in tests, it's there for you to see, how he is apart from other batsmen.

 

[rhony]

Virat Kohli's statistics vs Australia in Australia.

Legendary figures these!!! He is going to have a monster of a series this time around

 

[Canford Cliffs]

Would Bradman avgd 99 had he played in modern era with 3 formats in alien conditions? These hypothetical questions has no meaning.

 

[jnaveen1980]

We need to talk about your username.

 

[happydavy]

Well right now, Virat Kohli himself is the entire batting order, there is nothing before or after him. Pujara/Rahane have been there for good 6-8 years but they play like rookies and score once or twice in a 5 match test series.