Younis Khan's dismal record outside Asia is a matter of concern

[Slog]

India vs South Africa 1st test 2013-14.

India 1st innings 280 ao(Kohli 119, next highest score was 47 by Rahane)

South Africa 1st innings 244 ao

Pitch flattened out in 2nd innings and both scored 400 plus to end the game a draw. Kohli has a 96 even in 2nd innings but can be ignored as pitch was easy for both sides from day 3.

No one with a conscience will call that knock of 119 against Steyn, Morkel, Philander n Kallis as a flat track innings, I doubt if anyone has seen that match for first 2 days, it was banana swing.

I didn't call it flat now did I

I was just pointing to that posters convenient forgetting of the fact that YK came in at 33-4 but the ease with which he just disregarded that innings as being on a flat wicket is funny

And to top it off saying Adelaide innings was on a tough pitch when the scores were:
520,450,290 declared,350

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

I didn't call it flat now did I

I was just pointing to that posters convenient forgetting of the fact that YK came in at 33-4 but the ease with which he just disregarded that innings as being on a flat wicket is funny

And to top it off saying Adelaide innings was on a tough pitch when the scores were:
520,450,290 declared,350

Neither did I call YK a ftb, he is Pak best test batsman alongside Misbah, but was replying to a post where someone called that knock legendary to draw a series esp his overall outside sub continent record isn't exemplary, I pointed Yasir was the true hero in that series.

 

[Slog]

Neither did I call YK a ftb, he is Pak best test batsman alongside Misbah, but was replying to a post where someone called that knock legendary to draw a series esp his overall outside sub continent record isn't exemplary, I pointed Yasir was the true hero in that series.

I was replying to Mamoon there. I think we're on same page

He has some holes in his overseas record but has centuries everywhere apart from Australia where he had a decent record in one tour he made

 

[Ab Fan]

Younis record isn't dismal outside Asia.
Its decent enough just like other Pak greats like Inzy and Moyo.

However, Younis is a much bigger beast in Asia where he has delivered everywhere unlike Moyo who has failed in both Ind and SL.

Younis was also the highest scorer in his first tour to Aus where everyone had poor series and his record was still decent enough.

Not to forget he is a very clutch player and has shown ability of playing long innings.

I put Younis ahead of Moyo and perhaps Inzy too.

Failing vs ATGs like Ambrose/Walsh isn't shameful at the start of the career.

 

[New Yorker]

I am judging Younis - my all-time favourite Pakistan batsman - on his performances.

He has lost his consistency overseas, and he lost it YEARS ago.

He failed in 5 out of 6 innings in South Africa.

He failed in 6 out of 7 innings in England.

You just have to say goodbye at that point.

Not if "failing in 6 out 7 innings" = being the best batsman on the tour.

The tales of his demise continue to be much exaggerated.

 

[Mamoon]

Yes the Kohli century wicket wasn't flat but both team put totals of 400+

However younis khans century in South Africa doesn't matter even though it happened to be in an innings where Pakistan was 33/4

This is a classic case of picking a conclusion and then making an argument for it

[MENTION=134608]Hawkeye[/MENTION]

The pitch on which Kohli scored was not flat but it was not a greentop either. It was difficult to bat earlier on and that is why all batsmen from both sides barring Kohli failed in the first innings.

For India, no one could pass 50 apart from Kohli and the highest score for SA against a not-so lethal pace attack vs Zaheer, Shami and Ishant was 68 by Smith.

The pitch had quite a bit of grass on bit on and both captains misread the pitch, because it was not batting friendly for the first two days as they thought it would be.

You can refer to the dismissals on the first two days; almost all batsmen were dismissed due to sharp seam movement off the pitch.

However, the pitch flattened a lot over the last two days and SA nearly pulled off a record chase.

Younis' and Asad's innings in Cape Town was great, especially when you consider the situation in which they walked in, but we are discussing the pitch here. That pitch was slow and dry which suited Pakistan and Saeed Ajmal nearly won the match for Pakistan on his own with a 10-fer.

Tanvir Ahmed was a passenger in that game with his slow trundling and had we played Rehman, we could have won that match.

As far as bashing Younis and not bashing Kohli is concerned, again, if Kohli retires today, he will be bashed for his inability to score big against swing since he failed in England in 2014.

However, he has his best years ahead of him and there is hope that he will rectify it, because he has proved himself pretty much everywhere else.

Younis on the other hand has always failed against lateral movement and even today, after 16 years of experience and 100 Tests, he bats like an amateur when their is swing and fishes outside the off-stump away from his body as if he is batting in these conditions for the first time.

 

[Sachin136]

Not if "failing in 6 out 7 innings" = being the best batsman on the tour.

The tales of his demise continue to be much exaggerated.

According to you, Younis was the best batsman in the England tour?

 

[Mamoon]

I didn't call it flat now did I

I was just pointing to that posters convenient forgetting of the fact that YK came in at 33-4 but the ease with which he just disregarded that innings as being on a flat wicket is funny

And to top it off saying Adelaide innings was on a tough pitch when the scores were:
520,450,290 declared,350

The Adelaide pitch broke up on day 5 and Lyon was turning the ball square. He took a 7-fer and only Kohli and Vijay managed to play any innings of substance on that wicket.

His other hundreds were on flat wickets, but I'm not saying that innings on flat wickets are not good. All of the runs Younis has scored on flat wickets are good, but I was simply pointing out that highlighting Younis' away record does not prove that he can score or has scored a lot of runs against lateral movement in the past.

 

[Mamoon]

I don't know any player of whom it can be said that they always perfectly matched the expectations of their fans, whether negatively or positively. It is in the nature of expectations to be ephemeral, suffused with fantasy, and always on the move. We can debate forever whether YK is an ATG or not, but there is no question that he has in recent years played some extraordinary innings, and still earns his place in the side. That he does better on some surfaces and worse on others is neither here nor there. Very few players, whether bowlers or batsmen, have been consistently good in all conditions all the time, but among them no one has been better than Younis in what is almost invariably the most difficult time to bat in Tests, the 4th innings. The man has more character and nerve than Asad and Azhar put together.

Younis can be discussed without using the failings of Azhar and Shafiq as shield to defend him from criticism. By this point, it s abundantly clear that Shafiq will never be as good as him.

Azhar I'm not sure because he has certainly made some progress lately and right now is a better player than Younis, but career wise it will be difficult to catch him.

 

[Slog]

The Adelaide pitch broke up on day 5 and Lyon was turning the ball square. He took a 7-fer and only Kohli and Vijay managed to play any innings of substance on that wicket.

His other hundreds were on flat wickets, but I'm not saying that innings on flat wickets are not good. All of the runs Younis has scored on flat wickets are good, but I was simply pointing out that highlighting Younis' away record does not prove that he can score or has scored a lot of runs against lateral movement in the past.

Tbf that Adelaide pitch wasn't some raging turner as the revision of history would like us to believe

It was at best comparable to a end of day 3 Abu Dhabi pitch and I remember it clearly. The reason why Lyon got a bunch of wickets is Tnha the Indian batsmen at that point had severe weakness against spin (as evidenced by total haplessness against Moeen Ali few months earlier) and added to that was the fact that there was a lot of scoreboard pressure and when wickets started tumbling Lyon was on

 

[Mamoon]

Tbf that Adelaide pitch wasn't some raging turner as the revision of history would like us to believe

It was at best comparable to a end of day 3 Abu Dhabi pitch and I remember it clearly. The reason why Lyon got a bunch of wickets is Tnha the Indian batsmen at that point had severe weakness against spin (as evidenced by total haplessness against Moeen Ali few months earlier) and added to that was the fact that there was a lot of scoreboard pressure and when wickets started tumbling Lyon was on

Depends on what you mean by a raging turner. The only pitches I would call as raging turners are the ones India dished out for SA last year.

The Adelaide day 5 pitch was more of a day 5 UAE pitch I think, it wasn't uneven but the amount of spin was greater than what you get on a day 3 UAE pitch.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Batsmen in their forties are not useful "seniors" in the southern hemisphere. They are liabilities, they are burdens. They have to be carried by younger men.

Much better Indian batsmen - Tendulkar, Sehwag, Dravid and Laxman - were slaughtered 4-0 in Australia in 2011-12 by a much weaker pace attack of Hilfenhaus and Siddle.

And all those Indian batsmen were 3-5 years younger than Younis and Misbah are.

Whatever label you want to throw at khan liability,burden or useful senior you can't let him help carry the team only to drop him when you want the team to adapt better to Australian conditions

 

[Suleiman]

Another poor display.

Just imagine what will happen in Australia if there is just a bit of juice. Hopscotch in full flow.

Ball moves just a little and this guy reverts to tailender status. That's exactly what just happened just now vs Southee.

Give him a nice flat track and he is definitely up there with the best.

 

[Sachin136]

He hasn't played much outside Asia even earlier in his career, but how much can you expect from a 40 year old batsmen?

 

[Chief Destroyer]

He hasn't played much outside Asia even earlier in his career, but how much can you expect from a 40 year old batsmen?

He's always been a bunny against lateral movement.

 

[Suleiman]

He hasn't played much outside Asia even earlier in his career, but how much can you expect from a 40 year old batsmen?

If that is the question then what is he still doing in the team?

If he can't cope because of his age then he shouldn't be in the team, period. Only tarnishing his reputation at this point.

Retiring after the England series was the best way to sign off on a high. Helped lead your team to a series leveling win, leave a hero..

but looks like he wants to play long enough to see himself become the villain.

 

[Bilal7]

Depends on what you mean by a raging turner. The only pitches I would call as raging turners are the ones India dished out for SA last year.

The Adelaide day 5 pitch was more of a day 5 UAE pitch I think, it wasn't uneven but the amount of spin was greater than what you get on a day 3 UAE pitch.

The point is that the pitch and Lyon are not some huge challenge for batsmen. Younis Khan would have scored a match-winning 170 on that pitch and smashed Lyon into oblivion and any batsmen with good spin-playing prowess wouldn't have found it difficult either.

You're making Lyon, a thoroughly average spinner, to be the second coming of Warne.

 

[Bilal7]

He hasn't played much outside Asia even earlier in his career, but how much can you expect from a 40 year old batsmen?

Not his fault. He's still done very well in England and New Zealand and only failed in South Africa, which has been the hardest place to bat generally.

He has a century in him still but apart from a farewell series in Pakistan, both Younis and Misbah should call it quits not long after the Australian tour.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Younis loves his fishing, on and off the field.

 

[Mamoon]

The point is that the pitch and Lyon are not some huge challenge for batsmen. Younis Khan would have scored a match-winning 170 on that pitch and smashed Lyon into oblivion and any batsmen with good spin-playing prowess wouldn't have found it difficult either.

You're making Lyon, a thoroughly average spinner, to be the second coming of Warne.

No one said that, you just don't want to give Kohli credit for playing an incredible knock.

 

[Mamoon]

Lol at 'ATG'.

 

[Mamoon]

He hasn't played much outside Asia even earlier in his career, but how much can you expect from a 40 year old batsmen?

He has always been a FTB.

 

[Buffet]

Outside Asia against non-minnows, YK average is currently 39. If he can score some runs in Aus then it will go above 40 otherwise it may slide towards mid 30s.

 

[Tera Gawaandi]

Younus has performed 'on par'. PPers are disappointed due to unrealistic expectations. Younus is modern day 'Country Great' at best, if Younus is ATG then Chanderpaul (far better ODI batsmen and equally good Test bat) was Bradmanesque. I maintain he is not in top 5 overall batsmen produced by Pakistan.

 

[Bilal7]

[/b]

No one said that, you just don't want to give Kohli credit for playing an incredible knock.

It simply wasn't an incredible knock because Lyon is a thoroughly average spinner and the ball doesn't spit and hiss in Australia.

 

[Hasan123]

He's finished on pitches that are favourable towards fast bowlers. He's not atg and he won't reach that status. Time to accept that reality. He's a world class batsmen who struggles outside of his comfort zone

 

[Bilal7]

If his comfort-zone includes all of Asia, along with Zimbabwe, England, New Zealand and Australia, he's a world-class batsman everywhere in the world apart from South Africa. Averages 40+ in each of these countries listed which frankly is, the record of an ATG batsman.

Every ATG batsman has had his doubters and haters, that is the true mark of cricketing success. Not a single player in the world has universal acclaim, even Bradman is shrugged off by someone who feasted on farmers and carpenters.

 

[JaDed]

If his comfort-zone includes all of Asia, along with Zimbabwe, England, New Zealand and Australia, he's a world-class batsman everywhere in the world apart from South Africa. Averages 40+ in each of these countries listed which frankly is, the record of an ATG batsman.

Every ATG batsman has had his doubters and haters, that is the true mark of cricketing success. Not a single player in the world has universal acclaim, even Bradman is shrugged off by someone who feasted on farmers and carpenters.

Averages 23 in West Indies as well played 5 matches there.

 

[Bilal7]

Averages 23 in West Indies as well played 5 matches there.

Yes, that is true. I was trying to edit my post but missed the time-limit. Hopefully, he'll get to rectify that blip next year because there is no way someone like Younis should be averaging under 30 in the West Indies.

Obviously, a 40 year old won't be averaging 50+ in every series that he plays, especially away from home in alien conditions. We all saw greats like Sachin and Ponting embarrass themselves when old age caught up with them and Younis has comfortably out-performed them when they were around his current age.

 

[JaDed]

Yes, that is true. I was trying to edit my post but missed the time-limit. Hopefully, he'll get to rectify that blip next year because there is no way someone like Younis should be averaging under 30 in the West Indies.

Obviously, a 40 year old won't be averaging 50+ in every series that he plays, especially away from home in alien conditions. We all saw greats like Sachin and Ponting embarrass themselves when old age caught up with them and Younis has comfortably out-performed them when they were around his current age.

Sachin averaged 35.88, 34.12 in his last Aus,Eng tour which were far from flat pitches,Younis Khan averages 4 in this series.

Good criteria to judge players though "at this age-at that age" irrespective of how it affects the team.

 

[Bilal7]

Sachin averaged 35.88, 34.12 in his last Aus,Eng tour which were far from flat pitches,Younis Khan averages 4 in this series.

Good criteria to judge players though "at this age-at that age" irrespective of how it affects the team.

Younis averaged nearly 50 in his last (hopefully) tour of England, at the age of 40. He is yet to play his last series in Australia.

It's not a criteria, it is simply a fact that a 40 year old batsman should not be expected to average 50+ in every series he plays in foreign conditions.