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Your five greatest pace bowlers of all time?

Just curious: did you ever watch either of them?

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and I did.

Just curious: Lillee taking 90% of his wickets in australia, england and nz didn't stop you from rating him in to 5 bowlers, but sehwag scoring most of his runs in asia makes him worse than Alec "LOL" Stewart, Why? Is it just a little bias or a deep rooted colonial elitism, where you believe that the runs scored in your countries and runs scored by your players matters more than runs scored in asia or wickets taken in asia?

I find it offensive when amateurs from pre war era get rated above some of the top modern cricketers. Some white players from the noob era has to at the top according to you guys even though he's not fit enough to polish the shoes of most modern day cricketers and the funny thing is many asian fans also fall for this propaganda and start rating nobodies like sydney barnes as the best, just to fit in.
 
I think that Glenn McGrath is massively over-rated.

The thing about McGrath is that he had Shane Warne in the same attack. I can't remember any time in 40-odd years of watching cricket in which 2 bowlers in the same attack were basically impossible to score off without taking unnecessary risks.

And then you have to add in that Jason Gillespie was himself an incredibly fine bowler, only a smidgen short of Dale Steyn's level. He was more dangerous than either McGrath or Warne, but he was not as miserly.

Glenn McGrath's career coincided with a period of fairly poor batsmanship in terms of defensive skills and ability to bat out the day and show more patience than the bowler. Lara and Tendulkar were both hopeless at it and Dravid had the mental strength but a slightly less reliable technique.

I can't see anything in Glenn McGrath which was any better - or even any different - to Curtly Ambrose, Joel Garner and Vince Van Der Bijl. They were four clones of one another. And their records are incredibly similar too - McGrath just lasted longer than Garner and had more opportunities than Van der Bijl.

As for Richard Hadlee, he was very similar to Dennis Lillee - which is how we know that Lillee would have been fine in Asia - but not as quick. He also could be quite robotic like Ambrose or Garner or McGrath, and a batsman could get in against Hadlee in a way in which he couldn't with Lillee because Lillee would try something different like a barrage of bouncers.

The other week we had a thread about the very accurate high speed film cameras of the 1970s. We know from the most precise testing of all (WACA 1975-76) that Dennis Lillee was measured at 154.8K (96.2 mph).

That's significant. Hadlee was nowhere near that pace - the fastest I saw him bowl was the low 140's and he deliberately bowled in the mid-130's most of the time.

Lillee had that extra dimension of raw pace, which tends to be overlooked because the day he was measured at 154.8, Thommo was measured at 160.6 and Roberts at 157.4.

You had Lillee, Thomson and Roberts as contemporaries, and of course the previous year Roberts had been measured at 159.49K. The fact that Lillee was a little less quick has over the years been simplified to his being fast-medium, but of course he wasn't. He was quick. Just not as quick as Thommo and Roberts.


After all those threads where we both talked about your unreal views and opinions of 70s and 80s and subjecting them to some simple fact checks .... looks like you have ultimately succumbed to acute nostalgia ? Ohh dear.

But I had a chuckle when you said Dennis Lillee would succeed in Asia because Hadlee did ... just brilliant :))

I sometimes wonder what might have happened here if you were able to prove any of your Cricketing views to be actual facts. Its a dead giveaway when you never post any links of your beloved 70s (of which there is plenty available BTW ) that you actually enjoy attaching fiction to your nostalgia.
 
Just curious: did you ever watch either of them?

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and I did.

See this is why I never trust anything said and written by people who watched earlier ERA's .... Junaids age was in single digits at the time that he soo fondly recollects and tries to pass off as facts. No human being can recollect memories from that young age nearly 40 yrs later.
 
Just curious: did you ever watch either of them?

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and I did.

I have watched Hadlee.Have recordings of him as well.

But its hard to rate any bowler, who has done nothing in WI India or Pakistan, ahead of Richard Hadlee.
 
[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION],

Nice to see politeness and respect for us old geezers.

To my mind it was Imran. I have to be careful not to be too Anglocentric, because Wasim was less effective against England than against Australia and WI. He did very well against those nations. Perhaps the volume he played for Lancashire meant that the England batters learned him a bit.

I remember Waqar in 1992 as terrifying, a monster of pace and reverse swing. England would be 200-1 then 260 all out. He faded a bit after that but had the best peak IMO.

It is important to remember that Imran lost a couple of peak years to shin splints, just as he was really start to do damage with the ball, when he was the quickest in the world for a while. He would have been the first to 500 otherwise.
 
See this is why I never trust anything said and written by people who watched earlier ERA's .... Junaids age was in single digits at the time that he soo fondly recollects and tries to pass off as facts. No human being can recollect memories from that young age nearly 40 yrs later.

I, however, was older than that when Lillee signed off and older still when Sir Richard played his final test.
 
[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION],

Nice to see politeness and respect for us old geezers.

To my mind it was Imran. I have to be careful not to be too Anglocentric, because Wasim was less effective against England than against Australia and WI. He did very well against those nations. Perhaps the volume he played for Lancashire meant that the England batters learned him a bit.

I remember Waqar in 1992 as terrifying, a monster of pace and reverse swing. England would be 200-1 then 260 all out. He faded a bit after that but had the best peak IMO.

It is important to remember that Imran lost a couple of peak years to shin splints, just as he was really start to do damage with the ball, when he was the quickest in the world for a while. He would have been the first to 500 otherwise.

Of course. It's basic etiquette in both my religion and upbringing.

That is quite interesting to hear. Would love to have the mods interview you next so all of us can further read what it was like to watch the likes of Viv, Miandad, Gavasker, Imran, Marshall, etc at their peaks.
 
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

Be honest on this one old men - whom would you take : Fred Trumann or RR Lindwall?

Personally, I would have taken Ray Lindwall, because he could bat & he was fantastic in both UK, WI & AUS of course - and he was more complete for his old ball skills. FT was more of a classical English fast medium new ball bowler. But, I am not sure if RRL could have survived 15 degree rule for his effort balls & FT's stats are unbelievable, considering the numbers he put in County.

I picked one of them over Hadlee, in a timeless world, but RJH was unique, probably retired few years earlier at 39, than he could have!!!!!! Is there any pacer in history, whose last innings was a 5for? 8 in match, for 60+ overs?
 
1) Malcolm Marshall
2) Imran Khan
3) Richard Hadlee
4) Wasim Akram
5) Glenn McGrath

To complete the top ten:

6) Dale Steyn
7) Waqar Younis
8) Allan Donald
9) Michael Holding
10) Dennis Lille/Fred Trueman/Sydney Barnes

In order of merit?great list .Place Imran above Wasim and McGrath below Wasim?
 
Just curious: Lillee taking 90% of his wickets in australia, england and nz didn't stop you from rating him in to 5 bowlers, but sehwag scoring most of his runs in asia makes him worse than Alec "LOL" Stewart, Why? Is it just a little bias or a deep rooted colonial elitism, where you believe that the runs scored in your countries and runs scored by your players matters more than runs scored in asia or wickets taken in asia?

I find it offensive when amateurs from pre war era get rated above some of the top modern cricketers. Some white players from the noob era has to at the top according to you guys even though he's not fit enough to polish the shoes of most modern day cricketers and the funny thing is many asian fans also fall for this propaganda and start rating nobodies like sydney barnes as the best, just to fit in.

Yeah, it's because I'm a deep rooted colonial elitist. You've rumbled me.
 
1) Malcolm Marshall
2) Imran Khan
3) Richard Hadlee
4) Wasim Akram
5) Glenn McGrath

To complete the top ten:

6) Dale Steyn
7) Waqar Younis
8) Allan Donald
9) Michael Holding
10) Dennis Lille/Fred Trueman/Sydney Barnes

Marshall
Steyn
Akram
Lillee
Ambrose

Honor roll: McGrath, Imran Khan, Holding, Hadlee, Allan Donald, Waqar, Andy Roberts.

Great selection but injustice to McGrath.anyway my complements
 
1) Malcolm Marshall
2) Imran Khan
3) Richard Hadlee
4) Wasim Akram
5) Glenn McGrath

To complete the top ten:

6) Dale Steyn
7) Waqar Younis
8) Allan Donald
9) Michael Holding
10) Dennis Lille/Fred Trueman/Sydney Barnes

me

my list:
Wasim Akram
Richard Hadlee
Malcolm Marshall
Dennis Lillee
Waqar Younis

Great list my complements.Still preferred McGrath to Hadlee and Imran to Waqr.Mcgrath had more all round bskill as well as Imran,
 
1) Malcolm Marshall
2) Imran Khan
3) Richard Hadlee
4) Wasim Akram
5) Glenn McGrath

To complete the top ten:

6) Dale Steyn
7) Waqar Younis
8) Allan Donald
9) Michael Holding
10) Dennis Lille/Fred Trueman/Sydney Barnes

Malcolm Marshall
McGrath
Steyn
Wasim
Lillee
Very good list. I feel missed Lillee. in top 5 who was more complete than Hadlee.
 
1) Malcolm Marshall
2) Imran Khan
3) Richard Hadlee
4) Wasim Akram
5) Glenn McGrath

To complete the top ten:

6) Dale Steyn
7) Waqar Younis
8) Allan Donald
9) Michael Holding
10) Dennis Lille/Fred Trueman/Sydney Barnes

My list in the order will be

Marshall
Lillee
Wasim
Truman
McGrath

Though, I pick Was ahead of any of my XI because of being lefti & much better batsman.
Rate Wasim above Imran as bowler ?I share view but would like your reasons.
 
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

Be honest on this one old men - whom would you take : Fred Trumann or RR Lindwall?

Personally, I would have taken Ray Lindwall, because he could bat & he was fantastic in both UK, WI & AUS of course - and he was more complete for his old ball skills. FT was more of a classical English fast medium new ball bowler. But, I am not sure if RRL could have survived 15 degree rule for his effort balls & FT's stats are unbelievable, considering the numbers he put in County.

I picked one of them over Hadlee, in a timeless world, but RJH was unique, probably retired few years earlier at 39, than he could have!!!!!! Is there any pacer in history, whose last innings was a 5for? 8 in match, for 60+ overs?

Probably Lindy, because he travelled a bit better than Fiery Fred.

Remember though, that Sir Richard played half his tests on green mambas in swing conditions with friendly umps. And that was just in his own country, never mind Trent Bridge and Headingley. He wasn't bursting a boiler trying to get lift out of those super-roads at Melbourne and Adelaide like his hero DKL. The Windies batters said that in their yard Hadlee wasn't the same dominating presence as he was when they faced him for their County sides. Desis give him credit for his performances in Asia, but they neglect his average of 44 in Pakistan and minnowbashing the weak SL of the day.
 
A few outside factors to consider. The introduction of helmets had a huge effect on the intimidation factor. As did the introduction of covered pitches. Recently Bouncer restrictions, bigger bats, slower pitches have all blunted the intimidation factor, also Television and third umpires have also had an effect. Surely these factors should be taken into account when comparing fast bowlers across the different era's.
 
Based on all different topics i have read on bowling legends youtube videos and those i have seen live my five bowlers in no specific order would be
Malcom marshall(arguably greatest fast bowler of all times)
Imran khan(legendary bowler suited to almost all conditions)
Wasim akram ( i feel got atleast 60 -70 wickets less than what he deserved)
Glenn mcgrath(most economical and consistent bowler absolute legend in both formats)
Dale steyn(slightly biased as i have seen his whole career and at his peak was almost as good as any great bowler. Atg with great adaptability in all conditions).
 
In order of merit?great list .Place Imran above Wasim and McGrath below Wasim?

Yes. Imran was great almost everywhere while Wasim has a few blips in his resume. Also, Imran had arguably the greatest bowling peak of all time, when he was picking up wickets at an average of 13!

McGrath was a superb bowler and being ranked #4 is not disrespectful. I rate him below Wasim because the Pakistani did it in Asia, day in and day out, and because he had more natural skill and ability.

McGrath overachieved given his skill-set whereas Wasim underachieved.
 
Yes. Imran was great almost everywhere while Wasim has a few blips in his resume. Also, Imran had arguably the greatest bowling peak of all time, when he was picking up wickets at an average of 13!

McGrath was a superb bowler and being ranked #4 is not disrespectful. I rate him below Wasim because the Pakistani did it in Asia, day in and day out, and because he had more natural skill and ability.

McGrath overachieved given his skill-set whereas Wasim underachieved.

Do not think mcgrath over achieved but wasim surely underachieved. Based on what we hear regarding his talent and having seen some of his magical skill 4 wickets per test on average is not great for someone like him. With the unnatural natural ability he possesed he should have got to 500 wickets in tests he played.
 
My top 8 would be

1) Marshall
2) Lillee
3) Mcgrath
4) Hadlee
5) Imran
6) Steyn
7) Ambrose
8) Akram
 
Do not think mcgrath over achieved but wasim surely underachieved. Based on what we hear regarding his talent and having seen some of his magical skill 4 wickets per test on average is not great for someone like him. With the unnatural natural ability he possesed he should have got to 500 wickets in tests he played.

Well wasim started off as raw 18 yr old with no fc cricket so its not surprising it took him 3-4 years to get to the stage of being a class bowler

His latter year or 2 were also marred by injury and diabetics

From what ive heard his record from 1990-1999 was as good as any comtemporary and good enough for many to name him the outstanding player of the 90s
 
quick comparison of bowlers who bowled before and after 1979 ( introduction of helmets) most actually returned better numbers after helmets...
 
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You didnot watch Donald Mcgrath Walsh Ambrose Steyn?

I did bhai. But they did not make my list and I have my reasons. To me, fast bowling is all about being extremely quick and intimidating at the same time. Ambrose can/should be on my list but by the late 90s he'd lost pace and some bite. Donald was a great bowler...but other than his spell to Atherton I didn't get to see too many spells of that kind. Mcgrath to me was a seamer and not a fast bowler (I might be being harsh but he was not even close to being quick). Walsh, bowled a great line but again not really express.

From what I saw..the 5 I listed really inspired the 12 year old in me to play cricket..otherwise I'd carry on playing bball and think cricket was for fobs.
 
Marshall
McGrath
Steyn
Wasim
Imran

Sorry to say this but I find Lillie a bit overrated, infact I think the pace quartet of windies is a lot more potent than Lillie and scary too.
 
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

Be honest on this one old men - whom would you take : Fred Trumann or RR Lindwall?

Personally, I would have taken Ray Lindwall, because he could bat & he was fantastic in both UK, WI & AUS of course - and he was more complete for his old ball skills. FT was more of a classical English fast medium new ball bowler. But, I am not sure if RRL could have survived 15 degree rule for his effort balls & FT's stats are unbelievable, considering the numbers he put in County.

I picked one of them over Hadlee, in a timeless world, but RJH was unique, probably retired few years earlier at 39, than he could have!!!!!! Is there any pacer in history, whose last innings was a 5for? 8 in match, for 60+ overs?

Honestly, Trueman.

Lindwall was an ATG, but Trueman was the second greatest fast bowler that there has ever been, and of course nobody is ever going to come closer to Malcolm Marshall than he did.
 
It's great having a couple of gentlemen here with so much experience.

Who was the best Pakistani bowler, in your opinion? Imran or Wasim? And who had the best peak, Imran or Waqar?

The weakest of the three was Waqar Younis, simply because his low arm action mean that in series like away to the West Indies in 1992-93 he couldn't control the scoring rate. In that series he took a lot more wickets than Wasim Akram, but the series - like the previous tour of the Caribbean - was one which Pakistan could only win by keeping the West Indian scores beneath 250 per innings. Unfortunately Waqar would come in to bowl after Tea with West Indies 180-2 and bowl a spell of 7-0-30-1 which would literally lose the match.

Wasim Akram was a more skilled bowler than Imran Khan, and has 3 crucial inches of extra height. Batsmen never really could get totally on top of Wasim Akram, whereas Imran didn't have much more than his big inswingers and controlled aggression. On the last day of the 5th Test at The Oval in 1987, with Wasim Akram in hospital you just knew that Imran couldn't dismiss Gatting and Botham on a flat track.

Having said that, Imran Khan was a warrior, while Wasim Akram could be beaten mentally. So I'd actually take Imran over Wasim, even as a pure bowler.
 
Ambrose is the best pacer ever. Followed by Malcolm M.

Below them, the space is populated by a number of quality fast bowlers such as McGrath, Holding, Pollock, Donald, Steyn, Lillee, and a few more. These bowlers can randomly be chosen above or below one another depending on your biases and it wouldn't matter.
 
Brian Lara scored some of the biggest 100s in the history of the game.Tendulkar scored a century or a fifty every 2.5 innings and according to you they couldnot bat out.

Then you say Dravid who according to almost every expert out there had the most copy book technique had a less reliable technique.

Not to mention there were players like Kallis around too.

Mcgrath was better than Ambrose because Mcgrath actually toured the subcontinent and did well.Ambrose didnot bowl to the two greatest batsman of his era.The 3rd ATG of that era was still coming to terms with the game when Ambrose retired.

Lillee has 90% of his wickets in Australia England and NZ.He has no performance worth mentioning in the subcontinent or WI.This is called being a HTB. Hadlee was the far better bowler.

To say that Lillee isn't a great because he barely played in Asia is like saying that McGrath and Steyn aren't greats because they never played in Nicaragua.

Pakistan deliberately prepared bowlers' graveyards for Lillee because they were terrified of him. He only played in Sri Lanka when he was on the verge of retirement (and did fine).

India wasn't a cricketing power in those days. They lost home Test series to bowlers like John Lever and Richard Ellison. And they only played a series every couple of years, because overseas players hated the conditions which awaited them in the subcontinent, and nobody respected the Indian players (which was unfair and unreasonable, as Gavaskar, Viswanath and the spinners were good players.)
 
Honestly, Trueman.

Lindwall was an ATG, but Trueman was the second greatest fast bowler that there has ever been, and of course nobody is ever going to come closer to Malcolm Marshall than he did.

Interestingly, Trueman rated Lindwall higher than himself.
 
1) Malcolm Marshall
2) Imran Khan
3) Richard Hadlee
4) Wasim Akram
5) Glenn McGrath

To complete the top ten:

6) Dale Steyn
7) Waqar Younis
8) Allan Donald
9) Michael Holding
10) Dennis Lille/Fred Trueman/Sydney Barnes

Ambrose is the best pacer ever. Followed by Malcolm M.

Below them, the space is populated by a number of quality fast bowlers such as McGrath, Holding, Pollock, Donald, Steyn, Lillee, and a few more. These bowlers can randomly be chosen above or below one another depending on your biases and it wouldn't matter.
Your batsmen assessment was fantastic evaluating strengths perfectly of all .Still I am surprised that you rank Ambrose at the top.I rate him the most accurate paceman of all and the best on broken wickets or as good as anyone on a bouncy track.But he was not the equal of a Wasim Akram or Malcolm
Marshall on flat pitches or in all types of. Conditions and did not possess their versatility or all round skill.Infact although not as explosive as Ambrose McGrath could more intelligently ***** weaknesses of opponents and overall had a more effective weaponry.No paceman was as relentless as Curtly but great batsmen found Marshall and Wasim harder to face consistently.Ambrose would be around no 6 .The best match winner in a 4th innings but not as penetrative as Wasim or McGrath with an old ball who could become predictable. Would really like you to describe your 5 like you did of batsmen.In my book Overall Marshall,Lille,,Mcgrath ,Hadlee or Wasim would just nose ahead of Ambrose.
 
you missed
vinay kumar
dilhara fernando
albie morkel
tino best
england bowler who was ready to come to pakistan 2 play psl final.....he was regular in national team before woakes and stokes
 
1) Malcolm Marshall
2) Imran Khan
3) Richard Hadlee
4) Wasim Akram
5) Glenn McGrath

To complete the top ten:

6) Dale Steyn
7) Waqar Younis
8) Allan Donald
9) Michael Holding
10) Dennis Lille/Fred Trueman/Sydney Barnes

My take:

Sydney Barnes - Best of the pre-modern era by a large margin

Malcolm Marshall - All-round best fast bowler ever

Glen McGrath - Best of the modern era

Richard Hadlee - Close to McGrath, near flawless record like McGrath

Imran Khan - Most devastating at his peak, best from subcontinent, awesome with new ball and reverse swing

Great assessment .However did not Wasim have more all round skill and innovative ability than Imran or Hadlee?Many great batsmen found Wasim the most daunting to face like Viv,Lara ,Kallis and Gooch.On flat tracks he was far more effective than Hadlee and overall was more lethal than Mcgrath.Lillee was about Marsalis equal being more complete than any right arm pacema and would overshadow Hadlee in all types of conditions.I would prefer Lille and Wasim instead of Hadlee and Imran even if their stats were not on par.Anyway good contribution.
 
To say that Lillee isn't a great because he barely played in Asia is like saying that McGrath and Steyn aren't greats because they never played in Nicaragua.

Pakistan deliberately prepared bowlers' graveyards for Lillee because they were terrified of him. He only played in Sri Lanka when he was on the verge of retirement (and did fine).

India wasn't a cricketing power in those days. They lost home Test series to bowlers like John Lever and Richard Ellison. And they only played a series every couple of years, because overseas players hated the conditions which awaited them in the subcontinent, and nobody respected the Indian players (which was unfair and unreasonable, as Gavaskar, Viswanath and the spinners were good players.)

You post so much rubbish that even rubbish is ashamed.

Lillee didnot play or didnot perform in Pakistan,India,WI,SL.Thats more than 50% of the venues.All this doesnot matter as Nicaragua isnt hosting Steyn or Mcgrath.

India had won series in WI and England in 1970s.They gave Australia one of the toughest fights in 1977-78 series which AUS won 3-2.Not to forget that ICC's retrospective rankings show that Indian was even the no.1 ranked team in the world during a period in the 70s.You saying no one respected Indian players is the same joke, when you said Tendulkar was not selected to play County Cricket because he was not good ennough and he desperately needed the county money. It seems like players came and told you that they didnot respect Gavaskar or the Spin Quartet.Your poor racist digs on Indians just reveal your agenda.


Pakistan were a rising power in the latter half of 1970s.They werent terrified of Lillee and what was Lillee expecting in Asia?Green Pitches?

Why didnt Lillee tour WI after 1973(Even then he played 1 test),terrified at what Viv Richards and company will do to him????

The only thing of substance that you wrote in this post was

because overseas players hated the conditions which awaited them in the subcontinent

You are right,aussies hate touring the subcontinent.This is true even today. Most of their batsman struggle againist spin, one of the reason Greg Chappel never played in India and avoided facing the spin quartet.Their fast bowlers struggle in Asia, Lillee is an example.
 
I, however, was older than that when Lillee signed off and older still when Sir Richard played his final test.

I will take your word on that. However here is the problem I have .... go to youtube and search for "ashes 1974/75" you will get a bunch of hits each with substantial length (link posted below) . Now tell me this: 40+ yrs later how could you possibly remember any more than what can be seen on youtube ? And most importantly why does the footage invariably tend to depict a different story than you and [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] tell ? Could you point me to a passage of play that you think is impossible today ?

As I have said numerous times I don't have a problem with recognizing historical achievements. Just that I like to subject it to some basic scrutiny before accepting it as fact.

Link https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ashes+1974/75
 
I will take your word on that. However here is the problem I have .... go to youtube and search for "ashes 1974/75" you will get a bunch of hits each with substantial length (link posted below) . Now tell me this: 40+ yrs later how could you possibly remember any more than what can be seen on youtube ? And most importantly why does the footage invariably tend to depict a different story than you and [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] tell ? Could you point me to a passage of play that you think is impossible today ?

As I have said numerous times I don't have a problem with recognizing historical achievements. Just that I like to subject it to some basic scrutiny before accepting it as fact.

Link https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ashes+1974/75

I don't recall the 1974/5 series. I understand he was a tearaway quick then. I remember him from the early eighties, not so quick but with the occasional 'flier', cutting and swinging it both ways.

I count for something the utmost respect that Hadlee, Imran and Marshall hold Lillee in and how much they say they learned from his aggressive never-quit attitude and wide skill set.
 
your 5 best genuinely fast bowlers of all time?

This list excludes any fast -medium bowler and considers only those who were genuinely fast at around 145-150 k.ph or 90-95 m.p.h.Thus not included Glen Mcgrath ,Richard Hadlee ,Alec Bedser or Sydney Barnes.Hadlee was basically fast-medium in his peak period.

1.Malcolm Marshall-No right arm paceman as innovative or as deceptive with mastery of skidding bounce more than anyone.No fast bowler used the crease better .


2.Wasim Akram-took pace bowling genius or craft to it's supreme depth playing the equivalent of a composer like Beethoven.Arguably the hardest paceman to face amongst all taking art of reverse swing to it's supreme zenith.


3.Dennis Lillee-The most complete right arm fast bowler of all posessing every element be it pace,movement,control ,perfect action and above all more agression than any pace bowler.


4.Ray Lindwall-In terms of pure skill ahead of any right arm fast bowler who could move the ball around or skid it even more than Lillee and was possibly even quicker.Many greats like Denis Compton and Fred Trueman rate Lindwall ahead of Lillee.


5.Imran Khan-Controversial choice as there were more complete bowlers like Andy Roberts or with more versatility.Holding was quicker and Ambrose more accurate.However Imran was the pioneer of reverse swing and single-handedly turned and won games.The best pace bowling performer against arguably the best team of all-time,the West Indies of the 1980's.Also so many scalps on sub-continent pancakes.

Missing out by a whisker are Dale Steyn,Andy Roberts,Curtly Ambrose and Fred Trueman who could well have made it.
 
I don't recall the 1974/5 series. I understand he was a tearaway quick then. I remember him from the early eighties, not so quick but with the occasional 'flier', cutting and swinging it both ways.

Well in that case (and even otherwise) you would be better off relying on footage to work out quality of cricket. Human memories are notoriously unreliable (scientifically proven)

I count for something the utmost respect that Hadlee, Imran and Marshall hold Lillee in and how much they say they learned from his aggressive never-quit attitude and wide skill set.

Thats all well and good if and only if there is some footage to go with all that praise. So again why does the footage begs to disagree with all that high praise ?

I have proved the problem with this as well take Hobbs ranking or Barry Richards ranking. Ian chappel never tires of singing praises of Barry using the 325 in a day but that inngs is just ordinary.
 
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1) Malcolm Marshall
2) Imran Khan
3) Richard Hadlee
4) Wasim Akram
5) Glenn McGrath

To complete the top ten:

6) Dale Steyn
7) Waqar Younis
8) Allan Donald
9) Michael Holding
10) Dennis Lille/Fred Trueman/Sydney Barnes

My top 8 would be

1) Marshall
2) Lillee
3) Mcgrath
4) Hadlee
5) Imran
6) Steyn
7) Ambrose
8) Akram

Rating in order of merit?You rank Wasim below Ambrose ,McGrath and Hadlee?Anyway a great list and pleased with recognition to the legendary Lillee.
 
Rate Wasim above Imran as bowler ?I share view but would like your reasons.

I actually don't rate players, with stats only. For Fast bowlers, it's more about completeness, and versatility over a longer period, rather than average & SR.

Wasim is probably the most complete bowler in history of the game, who had every skills - conventional or reverse swing, cut, in/out swing, deadly yorker, silent bouncer, cutter ... and he could do that at pace. I have seen him swinging it away & cutting back off the seem in one ball - that Allen Lamb bowled would have been hyped as the ball of millennium had it been from a bowler with cricket media monopoly. In that regard, Was is actually unique, because all the fast bowlers listed here - most of them were hit the deck type. They were extremely skillful, cunning, aggressive and they could set up batsmen, could use condition, could choke batsmen, could fright them; but Wasim was probably the only one with one advantage - at his fittest, he could match any of them in pace, but no one ever will match Wasim in swing. 1st over of 1996 Hobart Test actually tells what he was - that too at his semi decent pace. He & WY had to plan their entire attack on getting batsmen out keeping slip cordon out of equation, therefore Wasim's stock ball was targeting stick, rather than using that incoming ball as a surprise element.

His average of 23.6 is actually misleading - apart from PAK's fielding & drop catches, he bowled over 900 No balls in career - before 1960s, those won't have gone against his stats, while from 1990s, there is a double impact - No balls are scored off in addition to runs scored by bat (that 5 goes against bowling if a boundary is hit of a No ball). This is something cost Ambi & partially Donald as well, but Wasim was at least 3 times loose when it comes to no ball. Being a chronic diabetic (& he had off field involvements), he was probably never more than 75% through out 90s, still for most, he was the cricketer of the decade, that tells everything.

Coming to Imran, he is my most favorite cricketer and excluding the top 2 given spot, most neutral cricket enthusiast would rate him the greatest ever Test cricketer, may be over all cricketer as well, for his contribution to team, influence on a match in 3 folds & both formats that he played - with bat, ball, with leadership & his fighting qualities - and all these after losing best 2/3 years of career at the best age (31-33, which in standard case 27-29, officially). But, he wasn't the complete fast bowler; rather I would say he had few deadly weapons, which were absolute unplayable for his best 5 years. And, he earned that stats - it was 1970s & 80s, not much free lunch.

I explain it this way - take other 4 top fast bowlers (I have taken out Mac, Hadlee, Truman & Styen for that qualifier - fast) - Marshall, DK, RR Lindwall & Wasim - their dismissal chart is much more diversified - from caught at slip to gloved at gully to LBW without offering. For Imran, his dismissal chart is limited, because, in his rhythm, that deadly swerving in-deeper was absolutely un-survivable, but he wasn't complete. He actually would have got lot many wickets had DRS been available that time, because those days Umpires were reluctant to give LBW on big swinging balls. But, as a fast bowler - show me his leg-cutter, conventional out swing, off-cutter with old ball? For someone like Marshall, he used his off-cutter with semi old ball almost like a spinner & brought his short cover in game; I have seen right handed batsmen getting bowled playing inside the line of DK's leg-cutter and both could get batsmen out LBW without offering. Imran's pick was exceptional, but not his versatility, his completeness - it's like the mystery bowlers, but his mystery was too good; batsmen knew it was coming, but didn't know how to counter that.

In this discussion, I must have to mention one bowler, who is the most hyped in history -Syd Barnes, and it's not because he was born 140 years back, playing in 1900-1910 era. People get impressed with his 189 wickets in 27 Tests (And average of 16), because they don't know the full story. Out of his 189 wickets, he had 85 (?) at <10 average and freakish SR, against SAF of 1900s - some of the Tests should be discarded from it's status because of the quality. Against AUS, in 21 Tests, he had 104 (?) wickets in 21 Tests at 21+ average, which was actually ordinary for that era - apart from Hobbs, with 58+, only 2 batsmen averaged over 35 in that era with 25+ Tests, were Trumper & Hill. And, Trumper didn't play in couple (?) of Ashes tours that Barnes played. Hobbs debuted in 1907 (Barnes played last FC in 1912) - with his 58+ average before WW1, he was actually equivalent to what was Bradman 20 years later - against whom Barnes hardly bowled even in FC. British cricket media tries to hype Syd Barnes for his skills (he was listed medium fast in 1900s, so I guess many here in PP would have out paced him), but in that regard George Lohman, Tom Richardson & Demon Spofforth should also be considered.

I completely agree with your list & order, with that qualifier - Ray Lindwall will make my XI over Truman as well, but Fred Truman was probably the best ever in English condition (in a time less world). I am not sure whom I'll pick at 6th - Roberts, Holding, Waquar or Donald.
 
I actually don't rate players, with stats only. For Fast bowlers, it's more about completeness, and versatility over a longer period, rather than average & SR.

Wasim is probably the most complete bowler in history of the game, who had every skills - conventional or reverse swing, cut, in/out swing, deadly yorker, silent bouncer, cutter ... and he could do that at pace. I have seen him swinging it away & cutting back off the seem in one ball - that Allen Lamb bowled would have been hyped as the ball of millennium had it been from a bowler with cricket media monopoly. In that regard, Was is actually unique, because all the fast bowlers listed here - most of them were hit the deck type. They were extremely skillful, cunning, aggressive and they could set up batsmen, could use condition, could choke batsmen, could fright them; but Wasim was probably the only one with one advantage - at his fittest, he could match any of them in pace, but no one ever will match Wasim in swing. 1st over of 1996 Hobart Test actually tells what he was - that too at his semi decent pace. He & WY had to plan their entire attack on getting batsmen out keeping slip cordon out of equation, therefore Wasim's stock ball was targeting stick, rather than using that incoming ball as a surprise element.

His average of 23.6 is actually misleading - apart from PAK's fielding & drop catches, he bowled over 900 No balls in career - before 1960s, those won't have gone against his stats, while from 1990s, there is a double impact - No balls are scored off in addition to runs scored by bat (that 5 goes against bowling if a boundary is hit of a No ball). This is something cost Ambi & partially Donald as well, but Wasim was at least 3 times loose when it comes to no ball. Being a chronic diabetic (& he had off field involvements), he was probably never more than 75% through out 90s, still for most, he was the cricketer of the decade, that tells everything.

Coming to Imran, he is my most favorite cricketer and excluding the top 2 given spot, most neutral cricket enthusiast would rate him the greatest ever Test cricketer, may be over all cricketer as well, for his contribution to team, influence on a match in 3 folds & both formats that he played - with bat, ball, with leadership & his fighting qualities - and all these after losing best 2/3 years of career at the best age (31-33, which in standard case 27-29, officially). But, he wasn't the complete fast bowler; rather I would say he had few deadly weapons, which were absolute unplayable for his best 5 years. And, he earned that stats - it was 1970s & 80s, not much free lunch.

I explain it this way - take other 4 top fast bowlers (I have taken out Mac, Hadlee, Truman & Styen for that qualifier - fast) - Marshall, DK, RR Lindwall & Wasim - their dismissal chart is much more diversified - from caught at slip to gloved at gully to LBW without offering. For Imran, his dismissal chart is limited, because, in his rhythm, that deadly swerving in-deeper was absolutely un-survivable, but he wasn't complete. He actually would have got lot many wickets had DRS been available that time, because those days Umpires were reluctant to give LBW on big swinging balls. But, as a fast bowler - show me his leg-cutter, conventional out swing, off-cutter with old ball? For someone like Marshall, he used his off-cutter with semi old ball almost like a spinner & brought his short cover in game; I have seen right handed batsmen getting bowled playing inside the line of DK's leg-cutter and both could get batsmen out LBW without offering. Imran's pick was exceptional, but not his versatility, his completeness - it's like the mystery bowlers, but his mystery was too good; batsmen knew it was coming, but didn't know how to counter that.

In this discussion, I must have to mention one bowler, who is the most hyped in history -Syd Barnes, and it's not because he was born 140 years back, playing in 1900-1910 era. People get impressed with his 189 wickets in 27 Tests (And average of 16), because they don't know the full story. Out of his 189 wickets, he had 85 (?) at <10 average and freakish SR, against SAF of 1900s - some of the Tests should be discarded from it's status because of the quality. Against AUS, in 21 Tests, he had 104 (?) wickets in 21 Tests at 21+ average, which was actually ordinary for that era - apart from Hobbs, with 58+, only 2 batsmen averaged over 35 in that era with 25+ Tests, were Trumper & Hill. And, Trumper didn't play in couple (?) of Ashes tours that Barnes played. Hobbs debuted in 1907 (Barnes played last FC in 1912) - with his 58+ average before WW1, he was actually equivalent to what was Bradman 20 years later - against whom Barnes hardly bowled even in FC. British cricket media tries to hype Syd Barnes for his skills (he was listed medium fast in 1900s, so I guess many here in PP would have out paced him), but in that regard George Lohman, Tom Richardson & Demon Spofforth should also be considered.

I completely agree with your list & order, with that qualifier - Ray Lindwall will make my XI over Truman as well, but Fred Truman was probably the best ever in English condition (in a time less world). I am not sure whom I'll pick at 6th - Roberts, Holding, Waquar or Donald.

Absolutely brilliant post!

Wasim is probably the most complete fast bowler of all time. Imran was a fighter who with his limited skills probably overachieved. Imran with Wasim's skills would have been the GOAT bowler.
 
My Top 10 Greatest Pacers of All Time

1. Jasprit Singh Bumrah
2. Allan Donald
3. Malcolm Marshal
4. Curtly Ambrose
5. Dale Steyn
6. Dennis Lillee
7. Glenn McGrath
8. Richard Hadlee
9. Wasim Akram
10. Shaun Pollock
 
1. Glenn McGrath
2. Joel Garner
3. Michael Holding
4. Dale Steyn
5. Malcolm Marshall
6. Wasim Akram
7. Josh Hazlewood
8. James Anderson
9. Allan Donald
10. Curtly Ambrose
-----------------------

Amazing set of bowlers
 
1. Dennis Lillee
2. Malcolm Marshall
3. Glenn McGrath
4. Curtley Ambrose.
5. Sydney Barnes
 
I watch cricket since 1997. Here are my top 5 pacers since then:

1) McGrath
2) Wasim
3) Steyn
4) Pollock
5) Waqar.
 
Wasim
Waqar
Shoaib

Biased. Probably.

But nothing got the juices flowing like watching these guys.

That ooooooooooooooaaaah from the crowd when Shoaib would run in.

Nothing like it.
 
your 5 best genuinely fast bowlers of all time?

This list excludes any fast -medium bowler and considers only those who were genuinely fast at around 145-150 k.ph or 90-95 m.p.h.Thus not included Glen Mcgrath ,Richard Hadlee ,Alec Bedser or Sydney Barnes.Hadlee was basically fast-medium in his peak period.

1.Malcolm Marshall-No right arm paceman as innovative or as deceptive with mastery of skidding bounce more than anyone.No fast bowler used the crease better .


2.Wasim Akram-took pace bowling genius or craft to it's supreme depth playing the equivalent of a composer like Beethoven.Arguably the hardest paceman to face amongst all taking art of reverse swing to it's supreme zenith.


3.Dennis Lillee-The most complete right arm fast bowler of all posessing every element be it pace,movement,control ,perfect action and above all more agression than any pace bowler.


4.Ray Lindwall-In terms of pure skill ahead of any right arm fast bowler who could move the ball around or skid it even more than Lillee and was possibly even quicker.Many greats like Denis Compton and Fred Trueman rate Lindwall ahead of Lillee.


5.Imran Khan-Controversial choice as there were more complete bowlers like Andy Roberts or with more versatility.Holding was quicker and Ambrose more accurate.However Imran was the pioneer of reverse swing and single-handedly turned and won games.The best pace bowling performer against arguably the best team of all-time,the West Indies of the 1980's.Also so many scalps on sub-continent pancakes.

Missing out by a whisker are Dale Steyn,Andy Roberts,Curtly Ambrose and Fred Trueman who could well have made it.
Yea bro. You have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Among those I watched live across formats:-

McGrath
Wasim
Ambrose
Donald
Steyn

That’s really top level and only Bumrah has potential to reach this level. Rest like Pollock, Waqar, Walsh, Anderson are a level below. Cummins and Rabada likely to stay a level below given their mediocre white ball record and not so great away record vs good sides in test cricket.
 
Among those I watched live across formats:-

McGrath
Wasim
Ambrose
Donald
Steyn

That’s really top level and only Bumrah has potential to reach this level. Rest like Pollock, Waqar, Walsh, Anderson are a level below. Cummins and Rabada likely to stay a level below given their mediocre white ball record and not so great away record vs good sides in test cricket.
Nha not wasim number 2. Steyn Ambrose all above him. I would put marshal above all too. Just below mcg.

Sydney Barnes lol amateur era. Doesn't count. I mean this is in response to moninsaaigols claim
 
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Top 6 South Asian Fast Bowlers in Australia 🇦🇺 : 1) Jasprit Bumrah : 64 Wickets @17.15 2) Kapil Dev : 51 Wickets @24.58 3) Sarfaraz Nawaz : 50 Wickets @31.46 4) Imran Khan : 45 Wickets @28.51 5) Wasim Akram : 36 Wickets @24.05 6) Mohammad Shami : 31 Wickets @32.16. Bumrah is the Greatest Bowler from South Asia in Australia 🇦🇺
 
Top 6 South Asian Fast Bowlers in England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 : 1) Wasim Akram : 53 Wickets @28.73 2) Ishant Sharma : 51 Wickets @33.35 3) Mohammad Amir : 49 Wickets @25.55 4) Imran Khan : 47 Wickets @24.63 5) Waqar Younis : 45 Wickets @27.48 6) Jasprit Bumrah : 37 Wickets @26.27
 
Top 6 South Asian Fast Bowlers in England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 : 1) Wasim Akram : 53 Wickets @28.73 2) Ishant Sharma : 51 Wickets @33.35 3) Mohammad Amir : 49 Wickets @25.55 4) Imran Khan : 47 Wickets @24.63 5) Waqar Younis : 45 Wickets @27.48 6) Jasprit Bumrah : 37 Wickets @26.27
Zaheer Khan took 31 Wickets @27.96
 
Australia 🇦🇺 and England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Combined : 1) Jasprit Bumrah : 101 Wickets @20.49 2) Imran Khan : 92 Wickets @26.53 3) Wasim Akram : 89 Wickets @26.84 - Bumrah is a Legend
 
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