Your opinion on former Pakistan Head Coach Dav Whatmore

[Slog]

Before he was coach of Pakistan I used to rate him VERY highly. He had an impression of being a no nonsense, hard taskmaster (a role Waqar has done well)

Before he came he had such a strong pedigree as a coach.But to say that his era as coach was disappointing to say the least.

No Test series wins at all in his coaching period and to top it off lost a Test to Zimbabwe too. ODI was also all over the place and was capped off by a disastrous 2013 CT.

What was worse was there seemed to be no game plan or strategy whatsoever. His team combinations looked totally clueless and he was a rabbit in the headlights.

Only positive could be the improvement in fitness and fielding by his trainer.

Anyways looking at him I started thinkin, Be careful what you wish for. He was soo poooor as coach.

What are your memories and opinion of him as coach of Pakistan and generall.

 

[Mamoon]

He is a big fish in a small pound kind of guy, who has badly exposed during his stint with us. He is the perfect coach for a minnow team with low expectations or junior levels, but he is out of his depth when he is under pressure to deliver and the expectations are high.

He won the World Cup with a Sri Lankan team that did not have the big team status that it has today, was very good with Bangladesh as well as the Indian U-19 team, but when he returned to Sri Lanka when they were an established cricketing nation, he flopped. Similarly, he failed to deliver for us when he took over after we were on a high after whitewashing England and in his tenure, we regressed badly. Not a single Test series win.

He even failed in the IPL with KKR.

His stint with us proved that he is an overrated coach, and there is a good reason why he hasn't been hired by the likes of Australia, South Africa, England, India, New Zealand etc. even though he has been a popular name in the coaching circuit for two decades now.

It is no surprise that Zimbabwe have looked competitive in his tenure, simply because this is his level.

Ranatunga may have personal beef with him but he advised us in 2007 not to appoint him and we did well to listen, unfortunately we failed to resist 5 years later.

 

[Slog]

He is a big fish in a small pound kind of guy, who has badly exposed during his stint with us. He is the perfect coach for a minnow team with low expectations or junior levels, but he is out of his depth when he is under pressure to deliver and the expectations are high.

He won the World Cup with a Sri Lankan team that did not have the big team status that it has today, was very good with Bangladesh as well as the Indian U-19 team, but when he returned to Sri Lanka when they were an established cricketing nation, he flopped. Similarly, he failed to deliver for us when he took over after we were on a high after whitewashing England and in his tenure, we regressed badly. Not a single Test series win.

He even failed in the IPL with KKR.

His stint with us proved that he is an overrated coach, and there is a good reason why he hasn't been hired by the likes of Australia, South Africa, England, India, New Zealand etc. even though he has been a popular name in the coaching circuit for two decades now.

It is no surprise that Zimbabwe have looked competitive in his tenure, simply because this is his level.

Ranatunga may have personal beef with him but he advised us in 2007 not to appoint him and we did well to listen, unfortunately we failed to resist 5 years later.

Good post and I think probably you are right.

But I remember I was livid in 2007 when we went with Lawson over him. Apparently he was seen as a hard taskmaster and the senior players wanted Lawson who was seen as a bit of a softy back then

 

[ChachaCricket]

Yeah, Mamoon's nailed it.

Overall a decent coach but does not handle pressure well.

 

[Mamoon]

Good post and I think probably you are right.

But I remember I was livid in 2007 when we went with Lawson over him. Apparently he was seen as a hard taskmaster and the senior players wanted Lawson who was seen as a bit of a softy back then

My biggest disappointment with him wasn't just the results but that he hardly looked interested and involved. In the last few months, he looked like someone who couldn't wait for his contract to be over and was happy to get his paychecks.

At least with Waqar even if the results aren't great (prior to the Sri Lankan tour) he is active and looks like someone who is trying hard to make things better.

 

[Rana]

I think he is a poor coach.

 

[Justcrazy]

He was average kind of coach.

He usually does well with smaller teams.

Pakistan though need to hire someone better than waqar

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

He is a big fish in a small pound kind of guy, who has badly exposed during his stint with us. He is the perfect coach for a minnow team with low expectations or junior levels, but he is out of his depth when he is under pressure to deliver and the expectations are high.

He won the World Cup with a Sri Lankan team that did not have the big team status that it has today, was very good with Bangladesh as well as the Indian U-19 team, but when he returned to Sri Lanka when they were an established cricketing nation, he flopped. Similarly, he failed to deliver for us when he took over after we were on a high after whitewashing England and in his tenure, we regressed badly. Not a single Test series win.

He even failed in the IPL with KKR.

His stint with us proved that he is an overrated coach, and there is a good reason why he hasn't been hired by the likes of Australia, South Africa, England, India, New Zealand etc. even though he has been a popular name in the coaching circuit for two decades now.

It is no surprise that Zimbabwe have looked competitive in his tenure, simply because this is his level.

Ranatunga may have personal beef with him but he advised us in 2007 not to appoint him and we did well to listen, unfortunately we failed to resist 5 years later.

Excellent post. Sums up my observations for him as well. Whatmore is a minnow level coach. Not a coach for big teams.

 

[ExplicitAI]

A very very average coach. He did quite well during his first assignment which was the 2012 Asia cup.

 

[zn426]

Here in the states, we'd say he simply has different skill sets.

I'd imagine a great many associates and affiliates would love to have a coach such as whatmore. Not because of his name or his resume, but because a disciplined taskmaster is one that will build teams well. He is not the coach to win a title, but I imagine he could get plenty of them to top associate or affiliate status.

 

[Markhor]

Dav seems likeable on a personal level, he's always been very positive when speaking about Pakistan.

I also wanted him back in 2007. I don't know if he's lost his passion along the way, he didn't have a good record with the KKR in IPL and we were very underwhelming under his tenure as coach though how much of that can be attributed to him I don't know.

2012 Asia Cup and India away win were the highlights, but it was a very average period.

 

[miandadrules]

I think the question should be, has Pakistan ever had a successful coach? Many will point to Bob Woolmer but despite a mid-tenure renaissance, towards the end of his stint the house that Bob built was imploding.

Pakistan cricket is designed to fail, by its very nature because there is no collective will to succeed.

In this context Whatmore was a bad fit. He wasn't a great tactician but he is disciplinarian who gets the best result when his orders are followed to the tee. In Pakistan there are just too many cooks to allow that to happen.

Towards the end of the Woolmer stint he was being attacked regularly in the press by Miandad, who had the role of the bitter spurned ex-pro down to perfection. Inzi started using the team as his own personal Madrasa, Shoaib Akhtar man-handled him, Younis Khan threw a tantrum after Bob backed him for captain, Asif and Shoaib decided to add a little extra muscle, Oval gate, 3-0 defeat to England and first round exit from the World Cup were just a few of the highlights of his last few months. No wonder he had decided to step down after the world cup.

What're too was roundly being criticised by the media and by xenophobic ex-players and struggled to placate the strong personalities within the dressing room who thought they were above being coached.
He lacked the personal skills of Woolmer and realised quickly that he wasn't going to get much done his way and seemed to settle back in to a passive role and collected his wage while the rest played the power game. He wasn't the greatest coach but he wasn't as bad as his stint with Pakistan made him out to be.

I personally didn't think much of Whatmore following his comments about Pakistan cricket in 2007 when he thought he was the leading candidate for the Indian coaching job. I think that was the main reason why the PCB eventually went for Lawson.

Our most successful "coach" has probably been Intikab Alam, who basically put the wickets and cones out during practice and left the running of the team to Imran and Miandad.

 

[WC-Passion]

Was alright but like Mamoon said he does well with the littler teams.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

I think the question should be, has Pakistan ever had a successful coach? Many will point to Bob Woolmer but despite a mid-tenure renaissance, towards the end of his stint the house that Bob built was imploding.

Pakistan cricket is designed to fail, by its very nature because there is no collective will to succeed.

In this context Whatmore was a bad fit. He wasn't a great tactician but he is disciplinarian who gets the best result when his orders are followed to the tee. In Pakistan there are just too many cooks to allow that to happen.

Towards the end of the Woolmer stint he was being attacked regularly in the press by Miandad, who had the role of the bitter spurned ex-pro down to perfection. Inzi started using the team as his own personal Madrasa, Shoaib Akhtar man-handled him, Younis Khan threw a tantrum after Bob backed him for captain, Asif and Shoaib decided to add a little extra muscle, Oval gate, 3-0 defeat to England and first round exit from the World Cup were just a few of the highlights of his last few months. No wonder he had decided to step down after the world cup.

What're too was roundly being criticised by the media and by xenophobic ex-players and struggled to placate the strong personalities within the dressing room who thought they were above being coached.
He lacked the personal skills of Woolmer and realised quickly that he wasn't going to get much done his way and seemed to settle back in to a passive role and collected his wage while the rest played the power game. He wasn't the greatest coach but he wasn't as bad as his stint with Pakistan made him out to be.

I personally didn't think much of Whatmore following his comments about Pakistan cricket in 2007 when he thought he was the leading candidate for the Indian coaching job. I think that was the main reason why the PCB eventually went for Lawson.

Our most successful "coach" has probably been Intikab Alam, who basically put the wickets and cones out during practice and left the running of the team to Imran and Miandad.

Good post. Have to agree that the wins we get sometimes just depend on the mood of the team. Nowadays they seem united.

 

[Square Drive]

I liked him. Was decent.

 

[Pete Rose]

I am neutral on him.
For him the highlights would have been the series win against India and south africa in the odi's.
To carry on from some of the previous posts, part of why he was tactical was because, he was more focused on the national team and not so much the bench. He was relying on the selectors to know better.
having said that, the reason to appoint him was appalling. I recall the comments on the forum about him being a hard task master etc. All of it in premature hope that he will rid the team of malik, afridi, grouping etc. In my view, Lawson should have been allowed to continue.

 

[Markhor]

Towards the end of the Woolmer stint he was being attacked regularly in the press by Miandad, who had the role of the bitter spurned ex-pro down to perfection. Inzi started using the team as his own personal Madrasa, Shoaib Akhtar man-handled him, Younis Khan threw a tantrum after Bob backed him for captain, Asif and Shoaib decided to add a little extra muscle, Oval gate, 3-0 defeat to England and first round exit from the World Cup were just a few of the highlights of his last few months. No wonder he had decided to step down after the world cup.

One of the biggest reasons why Asif should never return again. He was unbelievably unprofessional around 2006-2007 and him and Akhtar were becoming a toxic influence in the dressing room.

 

[zabalestmsm]

He was cute

 

[MMHS]

Regarding Dav, I think most of my assessments are covered here, but I draw the conclusion in a positive way for him.

It's about personality trait - Dav as a person was passionate, dedicated, extremely qualified, but he was ill-tempered & authoritative. I think, he has broken the dressing room glass few times at Mirpur - but it's the outburst of his frustration.

Dav needs authority & performs best when he has full control of everything. There are great Managers in football (Sir Alex comes to mind), who actually didn't use any assistant or director of football & they were better working solo. Dav was like that - he performs best when it's "My way or highway". He did wonders with Lankan team when they were new in the game (it's not about seniority or experience of players, rather than the people around the team - Board, selectors, domestic coaches....), because he had absolute control of cricket affairs. That was the same case in BD - even BCB top bosses (Invariably some political goon) avoided confrontation with him in 5 years. He picked Sakib, Tamim, Mash, Mushi literally from school cricket & asked the selectors to read out his team.

He was a failure for SRL 2nd time not because he lost clue, rather people like Arjuna, Sanath, Hari.... because they became too big by that time for his ego. That's the same with IPL - KKR was the last team where he should have gone - IPL is ultimate showmanship where personanlity like Dav Whatmore simply can't when the stars are Shahrukh & Wasim. When he was appointed PAK Coach, I catagoroically said that it 'll be a big disaster - PCB isn't professional enough while PAK dressing room wasn't cultured enough. He staterd well for PAK, but soon lost his interest & for last few months simply counted days (& salary). Besides, by that time he was 60+ & in a age bracket when people prefer peace over success/achievements & avoid confrontation. 10 years back - either Dav would have resigned in few months time or would have fixed PCB (obviously we know what is easier). He learned his cricket tough way from the AUS domestics, as he was not naturally gifted enough - wanted the same everywhere.

I am sure he 'll do great with ZIM within very limited resources, because he probably 'll have much more control over the affairs than PCB. It's not about "minnow" or "low expectation" - some of the best batsmen around contemporary world were groomed by him at SRL & NCA Bangalore & I can tell that players like Kohli or Ashwin has more ambition & expectations on themselves than what Umar Akmal or Md. Aamir can ever dream off. And, in his 2nd stint as SRL Coach, he gave something priceless to SRL Team - developed Kumar Sangakara, Mahela Jayawerdena & Tilakratne Dilshan.........

An wonderful modern Coach with poor man-management & organizational skills - he walks on the path he likes or quits walking, but never learned to change his path.

 

[julien f]

Before he was coach of Pakistan I used to rate him VERY highly. He had an impression of being a no nonsense, hard taskmaster (a role Waqar has done well)

Before he came he had such a strong pedigree as a coach.But to say that his era as coach was disappointing to say the least.

No Test series wins at all in his coaching period and to top it off lost a Test to Zimbabwe too. ODI was also all over the place and was capped off by a disastrous 2013 CT.

What was worse was there seemed to be no game plan or strategy whatsoever. His team combinations looked totally clueless and he was a rabbit in the headlights.

Only positive could be the improvement in fitness and fielding by his trainer.

Anyways looking at him I started thinkin, Be careful what you wish for. He was soo poooor as coach.

What are your memories and opinion of him as coach of Pakistan and generall.

Do you mean me ???? (The Fielding Coach?)

 

[Runner Up]

Do you mean me ???? (The Fielding Coach?)

Haha yes

 

[Slog]

Do you mean me ???? (The Fielding Coach?)

Yes. Miss you as our fielding coach, Mr. Fountain!

 

[Slog]

Dav seems likeable on a personal level, he's always been very positive when speaking about Pakistan.

I also wanted him back in 2007. I don't know if he's lost his passion along the way, he didn't have a good record with the KKR in IPL and we were very underwhelming under his tenure as coach though how much of that can be attributed to him I don't know.

2012 Asia Cup and India away win were the highlights, but it was a very average period.

I mean of course he is a top class person. Always has had good things to say about the country and the people.

Top class coach too. Asia Cup 2012, series win in India and first Asian team to win an ODI Series in South Africa were great achievements and a source of joy.

But in the grander scheme of things he was Just not the right man for us. What the reasons are and whether it was out of his control is debatable but the team especially in Tests, seemed to be stagnant in his time.

 

[Aman]

Don't agree with those who think he can't handle pressure. Whatmore is a coach, not a player where pressure actually has a significant impact on performance - whether a coach is under pressure or not he's still going to go through the same process and use the same methods he thinks will work.

I reckon the real reasons behind his lack of success with Pakistan were restrictions, politics and general lack of player professionalism.

In his stints for SL and Zimbabwe, he would/has the full backing of the board and was/is likely given a more free reign as well as stronger player backing.

Also don't see the point in bringing up domestic T20 coaching stints as a measure of ones ability to handle 'big roles'.

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] nailed it.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

It is no surprise that Zimbabwe have looked competitive in his tenure, simply because this is his level.

Zimbabwe haven't looked any more competitive than they were before Whatmore.

1-5 at the World Cup and thrashed by SA, India, and West Indies. SA game was close for the first 20 overs only. Barely beat UAE, nearly lost that one. And did lose to Ireland.

Winless in PAK, although they were in prime position in the final rained out ODI, it was a big chase and ZIM can lose from almost any position, so not a guaranteed result.

Thrashed at home vs India's A team.

Then beaten by NZ 2-1 at home, who rested all their first line bowlers (Southee, Boult, Milne + McCullum).

Zimbabwe won't be competing unless they get their white guys back (Taylor, Jarvis, Welch, etc). In fact, without any major revolutionion in ZC, in 5 years Zimbabwe will be competing with the Netherlands and UAE as Ireland and Afghanistan will be at least a notch above them.

 

[msb314]

I mean of course he is a top class person. Always has had good things to say about the country and the people.

Top class coach too. Asia Cup 2012, series win in India and first Asian team to win an ODI Series in South Africa were great achievements and a source of joy.

But in the grander scheme of things he was Just not the right man for us. What the reasons are and whether it was out of his control is debatable but the team especially in Tests, seemed to be stagnant in his time.

Thats because Asad Shafiq (with the exception of his Cape Town hundred) and Azhar Ali were in very poor form throughout 2013 and had little contributions to the team...

Misbah as usual was exposed outside of Asia (even in Zimbabwe) and it was mainly YK who carrying our Test batting throughout 2013.

The Sharjah Test of 2014 changed everything however (interestingly it was Whatmore's last game).... Azhar Ali returned to form with his century and it signalled the emergence of Sarfraz as our go to man in Tests. That is why that victory is even more remarkable than just the run chase - it sparked a turnaround in our fortunes in Tests.

I still maintain my belief that the players have to take responsibility and the coach cannot always be blamed for the team underperforming.

 

[msb314]

I think the question should be, has Pakistan ever had a successful coach? Many will point to Bob Woolmer but despite a mid-tenure renaissance, towards the end of his stint the house that Bob built was imploding.

Pakistan cricket is designed to fail, by its very nature because there is no collective will to succeed.

In this context Whatmore was a bad fit. He wasn't a great tactician but he is disciplinarian who gets the best result when his orders are followed to the tee. In Pakistan there are just too many cooks to allow that to happen.

Towards the end of the Woolmer stint he was being attacked regularly in the press by Miandad, who had the role of the bitter spurned ex-pro down to perfection. Inzi started using the team as his own personal Madrasa, Shoaib Akhtar man-handled him, Younis Khan threw a tantrum after Bob backed him for captain, Asif and Shoaib decided to add a little extra muscle, Oval gate, 3-0 defeat to England and first round exit from the World Cup were just a few of the highlights of his last few months. No wonder he had decided to step down after the world cup.

What're too was roundly being criticised by the media and by xenophobic ex-players and struggled to placate the strong personalities within the dressing room who thought they were above being coached.
He lacked the personal skills of Woolmer and realised quickly that he wasn't going to get much done his way and seemed to settle back in to a passive role and collected his wage while the rest played the power game. He wasn't the greatest coach but he wasn't as bad as his stint with Pakistan made him out to be.

I personally didn't think much of Whatmore following his comments about Pakistan cricket in 2007 when he thought he was the leading candidate for the Indian coaching job. I think that was the main reason why the PCB eventually went for Lawson.

Our most successful "coach" has probably been Intikab Alam, who basically put the wickets and cones out during practice and left the running of the team to Imran and Miandad.

Thats debatable....

Things were blown out of proportion during the 2007 WC due to Woolmer's death...

We played two poor games against WI and Ireland but Inzy was gonna retire after the WC anyway.

Touring England was always a very difficult challenge so losing 3-0 there does not come as the biggest surprise in the world to me. Sure Ovalgate could have been avoided but at its most fundamental level - it was just a team delaying the start of play as protest for an umpiring decision.....

I do feel that Akhtar/Asif's trouble during 2006-07 could have been better dealt with by Woomer.

Moving forward after the 2007 WC - Woolmer and Malik could have been a great combination

 

[msb314]

One thing under Whatmore's realm was that controversy and in-fighting within the team was completely avoided (except Razzaq's comments on Hafeez's selections during the 2012 WT20 but Razzaq was finished as a player by then anyway...)

 

[miandadrules]

Thats debatable....

Things were blown out of proportion during the 2007 WC due to Woolmer's death...

We played two poor games against WI and Ireland but Inzy was gonna retire after the WC anyway.

Touring England was always a very difficult challenge so losing 3-0 there does not come as the biggest surprise in the world to me. Sure Ovalgate could have been avoided but at its most fundamental level - it was just a team delaying the start of play as protest for an umpiring decision.....

I do feel that Akhtar/Asif's trouble during 2006-07 could have been better dealt with by Woomer.

Moving forward after the 2007 WC - Woolmer and Malik could have been a great combination

Woolmer had already decided before the World Cup that he was resigning.

 

[Mamoon]

Zimbabwe haven't looked any more competitive than they were before Whatmore.

1-5 at the World Cup and thrashed by SA, India, and West Indies. SA game was close for the first 20 overs only. Barely beat UAE, nearly lost that one. And did lose to Ireland.

Winless in PAK, although they were in prime position in the final rained out ODI, it was a big chase and ZIM can lose from almost any position, so not a guaranteed result.

Thrashed at home vs India's A team.

Then beaten by NZ 2-1 at home, who rested all their first line bowlers (Southee, Boult, Milne + McCullum).

Zimbabwe won't be competing unless they get their white guys back (Taylor, Jarvis, Welch, etc). In fact, without any major revolutionion in ZC, in 5 years Zimbabwe will be competing with the Netherlands and UAE as Ireland and Afghanistan will be at least a notch above them.

Maybe you are right but I was impressed with how they played at the World Cup and in Pakistan, but I agree with you that they need to get their Rhodesians back for Zimbabwean cricket to survive in the long-term.

 

[Runner Up]

[MENTION=44409]julien f[/MENTION] will you be the part of any team in PSL? would love to see you in Karachi team as fielding coach.

 

[MenInG]

World Cup-winning coach Dav Whatmore could be the first to lose his job due to Covid-19 after BCCI issued an advisory to state associations to discourage individuals aged 60 and above and those with underlying medical conditions from joining teams during the pandemic. Whatmore, 66, was appointed Baroda’s Ranji coach and also its director of cricket in April this year.

The SOP (Standard Operating Protocol) has triggered a few differing opinions in the Baroda Cricket Association. BCA president Pranav Amin believes that they should continue with Whatmore as coach but joint secretary Parag Patel reckons that the SOP should be followed and they should not risk involving Whatmore. Restrictions over flights from Australia, where Whatmore resides, have also been mentioned.

In his communication to Amin and members of BCA’s Apex Council on August 4, and accessed by The Indian Express, Patel wrote that it might not be wise to risk the health of young Baroda players.

“BCCI is doing this to safeguard themselves as well as their partners i.e. state association and cricketers. Dav might be ready (although I don’t know how he will fly from Australia to India unless international flights become operational). However, citizen above 60years of age are more susceptible of contracting Covid-19 due to various physiological changes and multiple underlying co-morbidities. Hence chances of him getting infected are more and by allowing him to interact with our boys, are we not exposing our pool of talent to high risk?” Patel wrote.

His mail was in response to the one sent by Amin to BCA’s Apex Council members. “We have spoken to a few people as well as BCCI, and the feedback is below. The guidelines set by the BCCI are only a preventive suggestion, not a mandatory ruling. The BCCI is doing this only to safeguard themselves so associations don’t blame them for anything in future. The rule of over 60 is only a suggestion and we will have to write to them informing them that Dav is available and willing (which he is). Hence, I request the CEO or secretary to write to BCCI informing them about our decision to proceed with Dav Whatmore as Baroda Coach and we are aware of above,” Amin wrote.

A BCCI official told The Indian Express that it will be the state association’s call whether they want to continue with coaches over 60 as the board has issued a general guideline as a precautionary measure due to Covid-19. “It (SOP) is not mandatory, however, state association will have to take preventive measures. This SOP was sent to help the associations. If they want to make their own SOPs, they can take some points from us. Each state has different situations, whether to accept SOP or not, it’s for the state to decide,” a BCCI official said.

The BCCI’s SOP had stated that “individuals who are over the age of 60 years, viz. support staff, umpires, ground staff, and those individuals with underlying medical conditions such as diabetes, lung disease, weakened immunity, etc should be considered vulnerable and are believed to have a higher risk of severe Covid-19. All such individuals should be discouraged from participating in the camp activities until suitable guidelines are issued by the Government.”

Whatmore isn’t the only coach aged over 60; Arun Lal, 65, is the coach of Bengal’s Ranji Trophy team and 67-year old Karsan Ghavri coaches the Saurashtra Ranji Trophy team.

Arun Lal said he wasn’t unduly bothered about the situation as it was just an advisory.

“It’s too early for me to comment on this. It’s a general advisory, nothing more than that. And the advisory also says, “should be discouraged’ and “not allowed”. In such a situation, things can change overnight and the advisory itself says ‘we may from time to time change it’. The season is so far away that I think it will sort itself out,” Lal said.

Saurashtra Cricket Association is yet to take any call on Ghavri’s job. “We will decide once we know when our domestic cricket is going to start. At the moment, we haven’t taken any decision,” informed SCA secretary Himanshu Shah. The SCA had given Ghavri a one-year contract last season.

https://indianexpress.com/article/s...dav-whatmore-baroda-job-under-threat-6547860/