“Way Muslims are treated today in India has made people realise why Pakistan was born" : Imran Khan

[Waseem]

Not sure Indians are getting upset, Imran Khan has said something really obvious and Indians know it inside but hard to admit i can understand.

This doesn't mean minorities live better life in Pakistan but at least it doesn't happen at government level, Indians know quite well how government is encouraging all this violence against Muslims with Modi and Yogi type extremists on key positions.

 

[Hitman]

1)India is a secular republic. There is no religion of the state of India as per constitution of India. Pakistan is an Islamic republic.

2) who eats bacon and pork in Pakistan? Pretty sure the demand would be negligible enough to simply ban it. Even the market forces wont be afffected much by this ban. Unlike the demand for beef in India which is massive.

So pork cannot be sold openly in Pakistan irrespective of whether Christians and Hindus want to consume it or not?

 

[rollingstoned]

Pakistanis are frankly the last and least qualified people to comment on the 'plight' of indian muslims. The blinkers are too strong and it is not a situation they can easily comprehend even if we ignored their hypocrisy.

 

[cricketjoshila]

So pork cannot be sold openly in Pakistan irrespective of whether Christians and Hindus want to consume it or not?

You dont get it do you? Since Pakistan is a islamic republic it can do whatever it wants in terms of restrictions on non islamic religions. They will also teach other secular nations how to behave in a secular manner.

Then you wonder why their rants on India isnt taken seriously by most around the world.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Not sure Indians are getting upset, Imran Khan has said something really obvious and Indians know it inside but hard to admit i can understand.

This doesn't mean minorities live better life in Pakistan but at least it doesn't happen at government level, Indians know quite well how government is encouraging all this violence against Muslims with Modi and Yogi type extremists on key positions.

Indians are not upset. They are amused. Most of us find it funny that the PM of a islamic republic,where non muslims are prosecuted under blashphemy laws and one can be punished for apopstasy is talking about minority rights in a secular nation.

So blashphemy and anti apopstasy laws are not in pakistani constitution? Or isnt pakistan a islamic republic? Since you claim there is nothing at "govt" level againist religious minorities.

 

[Hitman]

You dont get it do you? Since Pakistan is a islamic republic it can do whatever it wants in terms of restrictions on non islamic religions. They will also teach other secular nations how to behave in a secular manner.

Then you wonder why their rants on India isnt taken seriously by most around the world.

Then have the nerve to preach minority right to India after what happened to Asia Bibi. Can she get back the last 10 years of her life that she spent in prison because of what her country calls blasphemy?

 

[Swashbuckler]

1)India is a secular republic. There is no religion of the state of India as per constitution of India. Pakistan is an Islamic republic.

2) who eats bacon and pork in Pakistan? Pretty sure the demand would be negligible enough to simply ban it. Even the market forces wont be afffected much by this ban. Unlike the demand for beef in India which is massive.

Aside from the fact that beef isn't banned in India, that is a weird logic. So if tomorrow India removes the 'secular' tag and declares itself as Hindu Rashtra the alleged beef ban will be perfectly ok? If you continue this line of argument it will be justifiable to defend Saudi Arabia's sins because it is an Islamic country, while continuing to blame secular Western nations for not enforcing secularism strictly.

 

[Runner Up]

Any Indian Muslim here? Would love to read what they have to say about it.

 

[MenInG]

I feel sad for Indian Muslims. I know a few of them and they all tell me they have to 'get on' with their lives exactly due to the reaction from 'fellow' Indians like those in this thread.

 

[Azmi]

Both India and Pakistan are in a process which is called who is worse.

In case of India, even the secular constitution of India is also not able to guarantee equal rights and no discrimination, while the Hindu extremist mindset of BJP/RSS ruins the constitution in one way or other.

While Pakistanis make every discrimination against the minorities Halal in name of having an Islamic system, while India and Europe are not allowed the same discrimination against Muslims in India/Europe while according to them their sin is to have a Secular System which guarantees equal rights.

Off course these double standards by Pakistanis/Muslims are not going to last long and sooner or later there will be huge reaction against these double standards.

And it is not only Indian Hindus who are showing reaction against it, but also Europeans and the whole world is turning towards right extremism against Muslim minorities in their countries.

 

[CricketCartoons]

And it is not only Indian Hindus who are showing reaction against it, but also Europeans and the whole world is turning towards right extremism against Muslim minorities in their countries.

What have indian muslims got to do with what happens in pakistan or any other muslim country?

 

[Azmi]

Minorities suffer in most countries, even in the UK to some extent but what people are not understanding India is a unique case. Religiouis extremists are in power who want to wipe out their history of Muslim rule and thus have changed names of Muslim places, banned slaughter of cows, government officials have spoken against Muslims etc. Pakistan does not do this to their minorities even though they are much smaller in number.

This religious madness is exactly the same in Pakistan. Actually Pakistan is much ahead than India.

Indians started this practice of changing names of streets/areas and wiping out Muslim history TODAY, but Muslims have been doing it for centuries, started from Ghaznavi.

And then in Pakistan too, they started changing the name of Hindu streets/areas much before India.

Read this:


http://www.dawn.com/2011/12/18/changing-the-names-of-places.html

Dawn newspaper is reputable Pakistani newspaper, and it is giving the list of places where names were changed from Hinu to Muslim.

And a more detailed list could be found here:

https://scroll.in/article/744545/pa...amic-past-runs-up-against-popular-imagination

Pakistan's attempt to erase all signs of its non-Islamic past runs up against popular imagination

If any, than Indian Hindu Extremists are showing the REACTION of what Pakistani Muslims did.

These double standards from Muslims/Pakistanis should end first.

 

[slipcatch]

I feel sad for Indian Muslims. I know a few of them and they all tell me they have to 'get on' with their lives exactly due to the reaction from 'fellow' Indians like those in this thread.

According to joshila, only Indian knowns Indian Muslims lol

 

[Azmi]

This doesn't mean minorities live better life in Pakistan but at least it doesn't happen at government level,

Please don't get yourself deceived by this.

What BJP is trying to do today, that thing has already been achieved in Pakistan in name of Islamic System, and then Pakistani constitution and laws based upon Sharia.

You say that Imran Khan is not a fanatic like Modi. OK, accepted, but could Imran Khan speak a SINGLE WORD against the Pakistani/Islamic laws against the Ahmadi Muslims?

No, he could not. Imran Khan could not even protest against the discriminatory laws against the Ahmadis. That is why I tell my fellow Pakistanis that what BJP Hindu Extremists are trying to achieve extra judicially, that has been achieved by Pakistani Muslim Extremists through Religious Based Constitution of Pakistan.

Both India and Pakistan are on the wrong path, but India is still better.

And prove is this that BJP Hindu Extremists form only simple Majority in India and they could not change the Indian Constitution, but big majority of Pakistanis are already Extremists, and 90% of them want Religious Based System and due to their 2/3rd majority, they already changed Pakistani constitution on the religious bases.

Therefore, it does not matter if Pakistanis are choosing a liberal party or not, but their heavy majority (more than 2/3rd) already consists of religious extremists.

 

[Azmi]

What have indian muslims got to do with what happens in pakistan or any other muslim country?

Don't be so naive.

What has Pakistani Hindus done that they are hated and they have to live under such a huge pressure in the Pakistani society?

And when Indian Muslims also keep on praising Ghaznavi and Auranzeb, and making him their Hero, and dream to dominate Indian through their population increase, and extremely hate Hindus, and don't let their children to marry in the Hindu families, and raise slogans of Pakistan Zindabad, and wave the flags of Pakistan in all their living areas.


If you think that Muslims are allowed to discriminate against the non-Muslims in their countries, and impose Islamic System, then they should also be ready for the REACTION, and Muslim minorities in the non-Muslim countries are not going to get the equal rights in name of Secularism.

Are you unable to see the Double Standards where Deoband School of thought raise slogan of Islamic System in Pakistan, but cries for Secularism in India?

All these things are inter-linked. It will be very naive of you if you think you could do all discrimination against Non-Muslims in your countries and then hope that it's reaction will not be shown the Non-Muslim countries.

 

[Hitman]

Don't be so naive.

What has Pakistani Hindus done that they are hated and they have to live under such a huge pressure in the Pakistani society?

And when Indian Muslims also keep on praising Ghaznavi and Auranzeb, and making him their Hero, and dream to dominate Indian through their population increase, and extremely hate Hindus, and don't let their children to marry in the Hindu families, and raise slogans of Pakistan Zindabad, and wave the flags of Pakistan in all their living areas.


If you think that Muslims are allowed to discriminate against the non-Muslims in their countries, and impose Islamic System, then they should also be ready for the REACTION, and Muslim minorities in the non-Muslim countries are not going to get the equal rights in name of Secularism.

Are you unable to see the Double Standards where Deoband School of thought raise slogan of Islamic System in Pakistan, but cries for Secularism in India?

All these things are inter-linked. It will be very naive of you if you think you could do all discrimination against Non-Muslims in your countries and then hope that it's reaction will not be shown the Non-Muslim countries.

That's rubbish. Please don't generalize. Indian muslims are a part of our family and will always remain so.

 

[AlizeeFan]

Why are people comparing minorities of India with minorities of Pakistan?

Logic is that Muslims are suffering in India shows Pakistan was needed for them.

So, Muslims of India should be compared with Muslims of Pakistan.


Unemployment rate - It's 6% in Pakistan and 3-4% in India

Literacy - 58% in Pakistan and 58% in India

Muslims below poverty line - 40% in Pakistan and 30% in India

Please list other indicators for comparison. Those numbers may not be completely accurate.

It won't be too difficult to show while Muslims have been lagging behind in India, but they still enjoy better condition than Pakistani muslims. Muslims are discriminated more in Pakistan.

 

[AlizeeFan]

Sex ratio among Muslims - India 950 or 936 (can someone verify), Pakistan 938 (till 2001)

 

[Azmi]

Why are people comparing minorities of India with minorities of Pakistan?

Logic is that Muslims are suffering in India shows Pakistan was needed for them.

So, Muslims of India should be compared with Muslims of Pakistan.


Unemployment rate - It's 6% in Pakistan and 3-4% in India

Literacy - 58% in Pakistan and 58% in India

Muslims below poverty line - 40% in Pakistan and 30% in India

Please list other indicators for comparison. Those numbers may not be completely accurate.

It won't be too difficult to show while Muslims have been lagging behind in India, but they still enjoy better condition than Pakistani muslims. Muslims are discriminated more in Pakistan.

Bad Economic conditions are not the signs or proofs of discrimination.

Indian Muslim fear for their life and moving towards ghettos where they consider themselves to be save. This fear is the the sign and proof of discrimination.

If you want to compare, then make a comparison of Economic Situation of Indian Muslims VS India Hindus. If not the Discrimination, then what name will you give to this difference between Indian Hindus and Indian Muslims than? Please provide us with this alternative name.

 

[enkidu_]

Why are people comparing minorities of India with minorities of Pakistan?

Logic is that Muslims are suffering in India shows Pakistan was needed for them.

So, Muslims of India should be compared with Muslims of Pakistan.


Unemployment rate - It's 6% in Pakistan and 3-4% in India

Literacy - 58% in Pakistan and 58% in India

Muslims below poverty line - 40% in Pakistan and 30% in India

Please list other indicators for comparison. Those numbers may not be completely accurate.

It won't be too difficult to show while Muslims have been lagging behind in India, but they still enjoy better condition than Pakistani muslims. Muslims are discriminated more in Pakistan.

Do you understand the definition of "discrimination" ? Who would do anti Muslim discrimination in PK ? Muslims ? I don't know where you got those numbers, and for instance the poverty thing is very malleable by changing the indicators as many govt. officials in the third world do, but religious discrimination has not always to do with unemployment rate or literacy, otherwise are Hindus more "discriminated" in India than the US ? You have to look at the context as well, Pak doing anti Muslim discrimination or India anti Hindu discrimination would sound ambiguous, while the first doing anti Hindu discrimination and the latter anti Islamic would be more rationally grounded (history, politics, etc).

Urdu speakers who moved to PK were generally the most "employed" and "literate" from their region, yet they felt they'd be discriminated so moved out. I also remember a Bollywood actor (these peoples supposed to be the epitome of "Muslim integration") who complained about discrimination few years ago.

It's more about upholding Islamic values in a Hindu majority society, esp. a society where Hindu nationalism is growing, than a job. In an Islamic republic you'll not feel obliged to say that Yoga is Islamic, to be bullied for cow protection or whatnot.

Modi’s India is a living nightmare for Muslims

(...)
Twenty-six years later, as India marks the anniversary of the demolition of the mosque, Indian Muslims continue to live their worst nightmare as they wake up each morning to humiliating and threatening discourse by legislators and members of the ruling party.

Anti-Muslim hate crimes are not just encouraged but also rewarded by those in power. According to a report on hate crimes released by Fact Checker, 76 percent of victims of hate crimes in India over the past 10 years have been Muslims. Ninety percent of these attacks have occurred since Prime Minister Narendra Modi was voted into power in 2014.

By labeling Muslims as “beef eaters” and expanding bans on the consumption of beef by putting in place new rules to curtail cow slaughter that disadvantage Muslim and lower-caste Hindus, the Hindu nationalist BJP is encouraging young Hindu men to become so-called cow vigilantes, who brandish their patriotism and faith by physically attacking Muslims. Even a rumor that a Muslim family ate beef for dinner, or a Muslim man ferried a cow to a slaughterhouse, can prove fatal in the hinterlands today.

When Muslims are not being lynched for bovine-related reasons, they are attacked for marrying Hindu girls, for sporting a beard, or for wearing a skullcap or other symbols of religious identity. They are berated on popular, state-favored news channels for being ungrateful betrayers and traitors who have no love for the national flag.

Attacks on Indian Muslims are also a part of a wider campaign to undermine the community and its rich history. The Taj Mahal is an iconic 17th-century mausoleum, built by another Mughal emperor, Shah Jahan, but it is frequently disparaged in remarks by Modi’s deputies. Yogi Adityanath, Modi’s choice as chief minister of India’s largest state, Uttar Pradesh, has stated that the Taj Mahal isn’t sufficiently Indian — code for belonging to India’s Islamic past. “Foreign dignitaries visiting the country used to be gifted replicas of the Taj Mahal and other minarets, which did not reflect Indian culture,” he said at a rally in the state of Bihar last year. “Now, [Hindu] holy books such as the Bhagavad Gita and the Ramayana are offered as gifts.” In the past six months, names of iconic cities and railway stations such as Allahabad and Mughal Sarai named after Muslim figures have been changed to reflect Hindu culture.
(...)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ing-nightmare-muslims/?utm_term=.b2c7b9ec876e

 

[AlizeeFan]

Do you understand the definition of "discrimination" ? Who would do anti Muslim discrimination in PK ? Muslims ? I don't know where you got those numbers, and for instance the poverty thing is very malleable by changing the indicators as many govt. officials in the third world do, but religious discrimination has not always to do with unemployment rate or literacy, otherwise are Hindus more "discriminated" in India than the US ? You have to look at the context as well, Pak doing anti Muslim discrimination or India anti Hindu discrimination would sound ambiguous, while the first doing anti Hindu discrimination and the latter anti Islamic would be more rationally grounded (history, politics, etc).

Urdu speakers who moved to PK were generally the most "employed" and "literate" from their region, yet they felt they'd be discriminated so moved out. I also remember a Bollywood actor (these peoples supposed to be the epitome of "Muslim integration") who complained about discrimination few years ago.

It's more about upholding Islamic values in a Hindu majority society, esp. a society where Hindu nationalism is growing, than a job. In an Islamic republic you'll not feel obliged to say that Yoga is Islamic, to be bullied for cow protection or whatnot.

Modi’s India is a living nightmare for Muslims




https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ing-nightmare-muslims/?utm_term=.b2c7b9ec876e

Socio-economic condition matter because genius PM of Pakistan tried to say that condition of Muslims in India shows how it was better for them to live in Pakistan.

Sure Muslims don't live in good condition in India, but it's like saying A getting paid lower than his peers in a job shows why begging by B is better. Does that even make sense for you?

On what scale Pakistani muslims enjoy better situation than Indian muslims? If living in India is difficult for them, then living in Pakistan must be hell considering that they have to struggle more there.

All people point out how India is nightmare for muslims, how is Pakistan better?

If Imran had said that he feels sad for Indian muslims then I would have thought that it is justified. But when he says that condition shows why Pakistan was needed means he is implying it is better for Muslims.

In that case you have show how it is better?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This religious madness is exactly the same in Pakistan. Actually Pakistan is much ahead than India.

Indians started this practice of changing names of streets/areas and wiping out Muslim history TODAY, but Muslims have been doing it for centuries, started from Ghaznavi.

And then in Pakistan too, they started changing the name of Hindu streets/areas much before India.

Read this:


http://www.dawn.com/2011/12/18/changing-the-names-of-places.html

Dawn newspaper is reputable Pakistani newspaper, and it is giving the list of places where names were changed from Hinu to Muslim.

And a more detailed list could be found here:

https://scroll.in/article/744545/pa...amic-past-runs-up-against-popular-imagination

Pakistan's attempt to erase all signs of its non-Islamic past runs up against popular imagination

If any, than Indian Hindu Extremists are showing the REACTION of what Pakistani Muslims did.

These double standards from Muslims/Pakistanis should end first.

Those stories warm the heart. To hear of big hearted Pakistanis defending the names of their localities even if they are Hindu brings a tear to the eye. Oh Pakistanis, you make it so hard to hate you, even for we Brits.

 

[AlizeeFan]

Who would do anti Muslim discrimination in PK ? Muslims ? I don't know where you got those numbers, and for instance the poverty thing is very malleable by changing the indicators as many govt. officials in the third world do, but religious discrimination has not always to do with unemployment rate or literacy, otherwise are Hindus more "discriminated" in India than the US ?

And yes, Hindus enjoy better conditions in USA than in India. There is reason why Indians migrate there at first opportunity. Most religions enjoy better conditions there. It's not exactly a secret.

 

[enkidu_]

Socio-economic condition matter because genius PM of Pakistan tried to say that condition of Muslims in India shows how it was better for them to live in Pakistan.

Sure Muslims don't live in good condition in India, but it's like saying A getting paid lower than his peers in a job shows why begging by B is better. Does that even make sense for you?

On what scale Pakistani muslims enjoy better situation than Indian muslims? If living in India is difficult for them, then living in Pakistan must be hell considering that they have to struggle more there.

All people point out how India is nightmare for muslims, how is Pakistan better?

If Imran had said that he feels sad for Indian muslims then I would have thought that it is justified. But when he says that condition shows why Pakistan was needed means he is implying it is better for Muslims.

In that case you have show how it is better?

His speech in Baluchistan in fact went beyond socio economics and even the article quoted in OP doesn't talk of that, but the socio economic conditions show they're more and more alienated into an increasingly Hindu nationalist India, analysts make the link with religious discrimination, but you brought socio economic in PK as if the context was the same ; it's not about religious discrimination here, unless you genius are inferring that there's anti Muslim discrimination in PK, the same way that Hindus in US living better than Hindus in India doesn't mean that India does anti Hindu discrimination. In fact many Hindus in the Gulf live better than tens of millions of Hindus in India, so just imagine the kind of inferences we could make.

What Imran Khan was talking about was more general : how to maintain a genuine Islamic identity into a increasingly Hindu nationalist India, with all its typical rhetoric about Islam, and Pakistanis will never have such problems in their country for this reason. That's the "conditions" he was referring to, not that there's a wealthy Khan dancing around trees - even if all of Pakistani Muslims were jobless/poor and all of Muslims in India were billionaires these points would stand, because it's about religious identity and not money.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Indians are not upset. They are amused. Most of us find it funny that the PM of a islamic republic,where non muslims are prosecuted under blashphemy laws and one can be punished for apopstasy is talking about minority rights in a secular nation.

So blashphemy and anti apopstasy laws are not in pakistani constitution? Or isnt pakistan a islamic republic? Since you claim there is nothing at "govt" level againist religious minorities.

I was non-plussed when you said you were amused, you always struck me as having about as much of a sense of humour as Mamoon, who has admitted he doesn't have one. But when I read you describe India as a secular nation, I realised you were quite funny after all!

 

[AlizeeFan]

What Imran Khan was talking about was more general : how to maintain a genuine Islamic identity into a increasingly Hindu nationalist India, with all its typical rhetoric about Islam, and Pakistanis will never have such problems in their country for this reason. That's the "conditions" he was referring to, not that there's a wealthy Khan dancing around trees - even if all of Pakistani Muslims were jobless/poor and all of Muslims in India were billionaires these points would stand, because it's about religious identity and not money.

His point wouldn't stand because Pakistan wasn't created just for protecting religious identity. It was created in hope that Muslims will do better in separate land than with Hindus and that idea has already failed.

Even if you leave out socio-economic condition, Pakistani muslims are more closer to their religion and pious in following the religion is an idea floated by Pakistanis their percieved superiority complex and attempt to look down Indian muslims when they are failing at other indicators.

Identity of a person is not limited to religion only. It's cultural, social and as well as economic. It's debatable whether religous identity is better protected or not, but it's clear that every other identity is better protected.

In fact one can say that condition of Pakistan as failed state shows that why birth of Pakistan was needed then. Without that, that region would have brought down a united India. With Pakistan, united India would have been poorer performer. So, in the end it turned out to be better decision.

 

[enkidu_]

His point wouldn't stand because Pakistan wasn't created just for protecting religious identity. It was created in hope that Muslims will do better in separate land than with Hindus and that idea has already failed.

that's your perception looking at from a materialistic pov, for others securing an Islamic state where the Islamic identity would flourish is the main task. That's what all Pakistan Movement activists were looking for, economy or whatever else are Marxist and liberal points and secondary.

Even if you leave out socio-economic condition, Pakistani muslims are more closer to their religion and pious in following the religion is an idea floated by Pakistanis their percieved superiority complex and attempt to look down Indian muslims when they are failing at other indicators.

no one's talking about individual piety but how this hypothetical religiousness is perceived and mainly able to express itself. From my experience the Bangladeshis are very religious yet their govt. is secular. Indian Muslims also tend to be very religious but the question is how can they express it and esp. for how long in Modi-fied India.

Identity of a person is not limited to religion only. It's cultural, social and as well as economic. It's debatable whether religous identity is better protected or not, but it's clear that every other identity is better protected.

it actually isn't, read the Sachar report, the conditions of Muslims in India are due to their religion while those in PK are due to succeeding govt. failures. That's why I brought the Hindus in India vs Hindus in US or Gulf point.

In fact one can say that condition of Pakistan as failed state shows that why birth of Pakistan was needed then. Without that, that region would have brought down a united India. With Pakistan, united India would have been poorer performer. So, in the end it turned out to be better decision.

yes, Indians are happy to not have a failed state otherwise it would have been a super power in 2220 instead of 2020 and Pakistanis are happy to not live with Indians even if they have to bear them on internet, so everyone's happy.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

In fact one can say that condition of Pakistan as failed state shows that why birth of Pakistan was needed then. Without that, that region would have brought down a united India. With Pakistan, united India would have been poorer performer. So, in the end it turned out to be better decision.

Shame you still have 200 million Muslims in India otherwise surely India would be ruling the world by now. No wonder Yogi ji wants to curtail the population of the cursed Muslim population that remains. Should just chase them out like Burma did.

 

[AlizeeFan]

that's your perception looking at from a materialistic pov, for others securing an Islamic state where the Islamic identity would flourish is the main task. That's what all Pakistan Movement activists were looking for, economy or whatever else are Marxist and liberal points and secondary.

Yes, religion has played big role in condition of Muslims and govt failure in Pakistan shows that they aren't in better situation than Indian muslims which Pakistanis want to believe.

For ex - various reports points how it is difficult for Muslims to get a rented place to live in Indian cities. 2 of my friends moved to a metro city 6 years back after getting job there. When the got a place to live, owner wanted them to vacate the place after he found out that one guy was Muslims. While this situation wasn't good and they had fight with him on this issue, how is this situation better than equivalent scenario of that guy in Pakistan where he had no scope of getting that job and coming out of poverty. He would not have been discriminated, but he would not have been able to afford a place on his own.

And it's not hard to guess what majority will prefer.

that's your perception looking at from a materialistic pov, for others securing an Islamic state where the Islamic identity would flourish is the main task. That's what all Pakistan Movement activists were looking for, economy or whatever else are Marxist and liberal points and secondary.

Since title of the thread talks about birth of Pakistan, can you confirm that protecting Islamic indentity was only reason for it?

It has become a failed state with only task to protect Islamic identity in last 30 years only, to cover up other failures.

 

[PakLFC]

In Pak we are not hell bent in changing names of our cities. Let cities like Lahore retain it's supposedly Hindu name instead of making a fuss over nothing. We don't want to go back centuries like Adityanath does just to upset the minority Hindu community in Pak.

 

[enkidu_]

Yes, religion has played big role in condition of Muslims and govt failure in Pakistan shows that they aren't in better situation than Indian muslims which Pakistanis want to believe.

For ex - various reports points how it is difficult for Muslims to get a rented place to live in Indian cities. 2 of my friends moved to a metro city 6 years back after getting job there. When the got a place to live, owner wanted them to vacate the place after he found out that one guy was Muslims. While this situation wasn't good and they had fight with him on this issue, how is this situation better than equivalent scenario of that guy in Pakistan where he had no scope of getting that job and coming out of poverty. He would not have been discriminated, but he would not have been able to afford a place on his own.

And it's not hard to guess what majority will prefer.

in Pakistan he will have the opportunity to have a job and come out of poverty depending on the govt. policies in the future (again, not religious discrimination as you've been trumpeting), while in India even if he has a job and comes out of poverty - in fact, even if he's a Bollywood star - he'll be seen as some kind of societal pariah by the Hindu majority getting more Hindu nationalist by the day - you're reading the situation in reverse.

Since title of the thread talks about birth of Pakistan, can you confirm that protecting Islamic indentity was only reason for it?

It has become a failed state with only task to protect Islamic identity in last 30 years only, to cover up other failures.

to have an Islamic state with an Islamic identity was always the main reason for the Pakistan Movement, some Jinnah quote :

It is extremely difficult to appreciate why our Hindu friends fail to understand the real nature of Islam and Hinduism. They are not religions in the strict sense of the word, but are, in fact, different and distinct social orders, and it is a dream that the Hindus and Muslims can ever evolve a common nationality, and this misconception of one Indian nation has troubles and will lead India to destruction if we fail to revise our notions in time. The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, litterateurs. They neither intermarry nor interdine together and, indeed, they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspect on life and of life are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Mussalmans (Muslims) derive their inspiration from different sources of history. They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap. To yoke together two such nations under a single state, one as a numerical minority and the other as a majority, must lead to growing discontent and final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state.

^it's all about cultural ethos and pristine irreconcilability by two perfectly antagonistic systems of life, one monotheistic the other idolater, one about cow slaughter the other about cow worship, etc.

As I already told you, the majority of the Urdu speakers, who spearheaded the Pakistan Movement, were better off than those Muslims who remained in India (and didn't move not because of Indian nationalism, but pragmatism), so if they wanted, they would have remained in UP or Hyderabad and so on and been the local guns in terms of culture, politics and/or economy. Jinnah himself could have ended like an "Indian independence leader" had he wanted. But they longed for a State where Islam would be the identity marker and the ideological fountainhead. Your "economics" in history reading is a symptom of modernist ideologies like Marxism or liberalism ; for Muslims the spiritual factor trumps the material conditions.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I was non-plussed when you said you were amused, you always struck me as having about as much of a sense of humour as Mamoon, who has admitted he doesn't have one. But when I read you describe India as a secular nation, I realised you were quite funny after all!

Indian constitution describes the country as secular. And clearly we dont need certifications on that from people of islamic republic.

 

[ILcricket]

I feel sad for Indian Muslims. I know a few of them and they all tell me they have to 'get on' with their lives exactly due to the reaction from 'fellow' Indians like those in this thread.

i see , do they live in India ?

 

[slipcatch]

Indian constitution describes the country as secular. And clearly we dont need certifications on that from people of islamic republic.

Lol! I see you are back to your antics when your brain can't let you figure out how to defend delusional idea spread by right wing hard liner hindu nationalists government and RSS.

India is secular, only right wing hindu nationalists would believe in such delusion.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Indian constitution describes the country as secular. And clearly we dont need certifications on that from people of islamic republic.

Agreed, that is why I am giving a certificate from the United Kingdom, which of course carries the most respect and integrity among Indians of probably all nations.

 

[Azmi]

In Pak we are not hell bent in changing names of our cities. Let cities like Lahore retain it's supposedly Hindu name instead of making a fuss over nothing. We don't want to go back centuries like Adityanath does just to upset the minority Hindu community in Pak.

Unfortunately Pakistan has also done the same, and at bigger level than India.

https://scroll.in/article/744545/pa...amic-past-runs-up-against-popular-imagination

 

[Azmi]

Indian constitution describes the country as secular. And clearly we dont need certifications on that from people of islamic republic.

I am afraid it is not only Imran Khan or the people of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan who are questioning, but these are Secularists in India themselves, and actually the whole world who are questioning about the Secular Values in India under the extremist Hindu BJP rule.

 

[pmahones]

I am afraid it is not only Imran Khan or the people of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan who are questioning, but these are Secularists in India themselves, and actually the whole world who are questioning about the Secular Values in India under the extremist Hindu BJP rule.

where were these people during the Shah Bono case?

 

[PakLFC]

Unfortunately Pakistan has also done the same, and at bigger level than India.

https://scroll.in/article/744545/pa...amic-past-runs-up-against-popular-imagination

We're not renaming cities are we? I know certain non Muslim places of worship in Pak have been destroyed.

 

[Azmi]

We're not renaming cities are we? I know certain non Muslim places of worship in Pak have been destroyed.

Every one comes up with some excuse.

In this case, the excuse is this that the names of the whole cities have not been changed, but only the small towns.

And I tell you, that we have to look at the "Intentions", which are the same in all the cases.

Moreover, the name of the cities like Lyallpur and Montgomery were changed to Faisalabad and Sahiwaal.

While the lame excuse of extremist Hindus is this that they are returning these cities their original names when they were founded, i.e. Mughals and other Muslim kings changed the old Hindu names of those cities to the Muslim names.

 

[PakLFC]

Every one comes up with some excuse.

In this case, the excuse is this that the names of the whole cities have not been changed, but only the small towns.

And I tell you, that we have to look at the "Intentions", which are the same in all the cases.

Moreover, the name of the cities like Lyallpur and Montgomery were changed to Faisalabad and Sahiwaal.

While the lame excuse of extremist Hindus is this that they are returning these cities their original names when they were founded, i.e. Mughals and other Muslim kings changed the old Hindu names of those cities to the Muslim names.

I think you need to look in the mirror to see the man who is making excuses here. Of course you are making silly excuses of entire names not being changed to bring up some silly argument. If I say demolishing any place of worship is wrong then India should equally condemn what it''s doing if you had the guts which you clearly don't. I don't think the name of Lyallpur was changed for religious reasons , before you tell me about Islamabad the capital is a relatively new city. Even f something was changed centuries back returning it to it's so called original name will only achieve more community unrest in your country.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I am afraid it is not only Imran Khan or the people of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan who are questioning, but these are Secularists in India themselves, and actually the whole world who are questioning about the Secular Values in India under the extremist Hindu BJP rule.

I see world leaders laying down the red carpet for the Bjp PM of India.

Can you define this extremist hindu phrase?

Left leaning media has problems with all right wing conservative leaders. In India its a political battle, a media and supposed intelligensia which have been nurtured by congress for 70yrs will ofcourse wont like a right wing govt.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Agreed, that is why I am giving a certificate from the United Kingdom, which of course carries the most respect and integrity among Indians of probably all nations.

By your own admission you hold a pakistani passport as well. So what you say is dripped in bias.

Secondly India calls UK war hero PM Winston Churchill a genocidal maniac, thats the amount of respect and integrity UK has in India.

 

[Azmi]

I think you need to look in the mirror to see the man who is making excuses here. Of course you are making silly excuses of entire names not being changed to bring up some silly argument. If I say demolishing any place of worship is wrong then India should equally condemn what it''s doing if you had the guts which you clearly don't. I don't think the name of Lyallpur was changed for religious reasons , before you tell me about Islamabad the capital is a relatively new city. Even f something was changed centuries back returning it to it's so called original name will only achieve more community unrest in your country.

I am sorry if I offended you.

For me, both India and Pakistan have shown their criminal intents and religious bigotry. I condemn the right wing of both countries.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I am sorry if I offended you.

For me, both India and Pakistan have shown their criminal intents and religious bigotry. I condemn the right wing of both countries.

you have exposed your own bigotry by equating right wing as evil. right wing are simply conservatives who believe in religious values, patriotism and putting the nation and community first.

 

[Romali_rotti]

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Imran Khan on Friday said that the condition of Muslims in today’s India only goes to prove that the demand for a separate homeland was justified.

The prime minister, addressing Baloch students in the capital, said this while emphasising the need for nation-building.

“The way Muslims are treated today in India has made people realise now why Pakistan was born,” he said.

Speaking about the fight against terrorism, the premier said that Pakistan will never fight someone else’s war nor succumb to pressure.

He added that he had always opposed war as a solution to the Afghanistan issue.

Commenting on the recent letter by US President Donald Trump to Pakistan, the prime minister said that those who used to ask Pakistan to ‘do more’ are now asking it to help them establish peace in Afghanistan through talks.

PM Imran Khan in an interview on Thursday with Washington Post reiterated the same and said Pakistan will not be treated like anyone’s hire gun.

Responding to a question regarding his vision for Pakistan's relationship with the US, PM Imran said, “I would never want to have a relationship where Pakistan is treated like a hired gun — given money to fight someone else’s war. We should never put ourselves in this position again. It not only cost us human lives, devastation of our tribal areas, but it also cost us our dignity. We would like a proper relationship with the US.”

https://www.geo.tv/latest/221091-do-not-enjoy-equal-rights-in-india-pm-imran

Well, he is a pretty slow PM, he only just realised the 'supposed' reason why Pakistan was created ?

 

[Azmi]

I see world leaders laying down the red carpet for the Bjp PM of India.

Modi got banned in America. And it was only due to the political reasons that ban was taken back.

And world is not limited to the Leaders and the politics. You should open your eyes and look how the PEOPLE of the world think when they see the Saffron Brigade with swords in their hands and rioting, and lynching and banning Beef and destroying the Secular Values.

You should open your eyes that this madness of the extremist Hindus is not going to be limited against the Indian Muslims, but Muslims were only the start, and then all the minorities started getting suffered at their hands, especially the Christians too.

No one likes the extremist right wing.

Indian society has been deeply polarized now. On one side we have extremist religious Hindus (RSS/Bajran Dal/BJP...), and on the other side we have Hindu Left wing Seculars, Dalits, and almost all the Minorities, while all of them in one way or another feel threatened by the right wing Hindus.

Can you define this extremist hindu phrase?

No, I will not, while it is not needed and everyone knows it already.

Left leaning media has problems with all right wing conservative leaders. In India its a political battle, a media and supposed intelligensia which have been nurtured by congress for 70yrs will ofcourse wont like a right wing govt.

What left wing Media?

BJP bought almost all the Media Houses and they are working 24 hours for the right wing Hidutva policies.

Only few Media houses have been left like NDTV who have been fighting the Hindutva extremism and criticizing them.

And then we have lot of writers who oppose this Hindutva madness.

And then we have Bollywood, where majority are still resisting against a right wing society. And for sure Congress didn't buy this Bollywood, as they were already very rich, but they are opposing Hindutva at their own free will.

You cannot take a ride upon Hindutva very long.

 

[Azmi]

you have exposed your own bigotry by equating right wing as evil. right wing are simply conservatives who believe in religious values, patriotism and putting the nation and community first.

I have the full right to condemn to the fullest the crimes of the extremist Right Wing, when they start to demolish the signs of all others forcefully and show no tolerance for the others.

The extremist right wing becomes total EVIL when it takes the Theekaydari of "patriotism" and starts distributing the certificates of traitors to the all those who oppose their madness.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Wasn't nationalism one of the biggest sins according to the sayings of the Prophet?

No worse nationalism than right wing nationalism.

 

[Azmi]

I believe we are humans first, and then Indian or Pakistan or Japani.

Therefore, all of us have full right to express our concerns about the Human Rights situation in any country. There is nothing wrong in it.

For me Imran Khan has full right to express his concerns about the situation of Indian Muslims and Hindu extremists.

Similarly, I give all the right to the Western world and Indian Hindus to express their concerns regarding human and minorities rights in Pakistan.

So, IK has right to express his concerns about Indian Muslims. But is he right when he defends the making of Pakistan on this bases? I don't agree.

If IK thinks making of Pakistan for Muslims was good idea to protect their rights from the majority, then Imran Khan should not show the double standards and he should also agree that RABWA should be made an Ahmedi independent State in order to protect the rights of the Ahmedis. And Pakistani Kafiristan should also be made an independent State too so that they could live independent of Mullahs.

For me, dividing the land on bases of religion/race/nationalities is not a solution, and Jinnah made a mistake in forming Pakistan.

For me, true leaders should teach the people how to live together in peace and love with all other communities and how to respect the human rights of each other, and to follow the Charter of Human Rights, a resolution that has been passed by the UN.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I have the full right to condemn to the fullest the crimes of the extremist Right Wing, when they start to demolish the signs of all others forcefully and show no tolerance for the others.

The extremist right wing becomes total EVIL when it takes the Theekaydari of "patriotism" and starts distributing the certificates of traitors to the all those who oppose their madness.

You are showing no tolerance towards the right wing and expect them to show tolerance to you. lol at the sense of entitlement of the atheist extremists.

 

[Azmi]

You are showing no tolerance towards the right wing and expect them to show tolerance to you.

How can one show tolerance against the CRIMES by the extremist right wingers?

Tolerance could be shown for the moderate Right Wing people who don't indulge in any crimes, but stay within the boundaries of law and Secular values of tolerance for the others.

lol at the sense of entitlement of the atheist extremists.

What atheist extremists?
What crimes have been committed by me?
Which crimes of atheists am I trying to defend or hide?

In fact atheism is secondary thing, but I feel myself Humanist first.

Please don't try to hide the crimes of the fanatic Hindu right wingers by wrongfully blaming others for extremism.

 

[CricketCartoons]

How can one show tolerance against the CRIMES by the extremist right wingers?

Tolerance could be shown for the moderate Right Wing people who don't indulge in any crimes, but stay within the boundaries of law and Secular values of tolerance for the others.

who gets to decide whether secular laws should be applied and not laws given by the Almighty? what is wrong in enforcing the laws of God in this land, instead of man made laws? It seems the atheist extremists are the judge jury and executioners, and they will only tolerate you if you follow their diktat, otherwise they will throw all kinds of slur at you. guess what, your ilk is losing their grip on society and you all will soon by irrelevant. all you can do is make noise online.

 

[BlackShadow]

Imran bhai needs to focus on what makes Pakistani Muslims some of the poorest and most backward population in entire South Asia. Treatment of Muslims in India shouldn't be his concern.

 

[enkidu_]

Imran bhai needs to focus on what makes Pakistani Muslims some of the poorest and most backward population in entire South Asia. Treatment of Muslims in India shouldn't be his concern.

You could have said in the world instead of South Asia, South Asia itself having the poorest and most backward population in the world, but how does that impact his point ? Hindus doing well under Aurangzeb or in the Gulf or the US or Europe or whatever as compared to hundreds of millions poor ones (esp. Dalits) in contemporary India itself says something about the nature of the Indian state in relation to Hinduism ?

 

[BlackShadow]

You could have said in the world instead of South Asia, South Asia itself having the poorest and most backward population in the world, but how does that impact his point ? Hindus doing well under Aurangzeb or in the Gulf or the US or Europe or whatever as compared to hundreds of millions poor ones (esp. Dalits) in contemporary India itself says something about the nature of the Indian state in relation to Hinduism ?

That's precisely why I mentioned South Asia, imagine being worst of the worst and yet point fingers at a neighbor just to get some cheers from crowd back home.

Indian Muslims get better education, healthcare, a more secure environment, yet Imran chose to sound stupid with his comment forgetting the state of Pakistani Muslims. If he claims to be better than past leaders, perhaps he should start acting that way.

 

[Azmi]

who gets to decide whether secular laws should be applied and not laws given by the Almighty? what is wrong in enforcing the laws of God in this land, instead of man made laws? It seems the atheist extremists are the judge jury and executioners, and they will only tolerate you if you follow their diktat, otherwise they will throw all kinds of slur at you. guess what, your ilk is losing their grip on society and you all will soon by irrelevant. all you can do is make noise online.

Don't try to deceive yourself.
There is No Almighty there, but there are multiple "Almighties" (or their so called human representatives) present there and every Almighty is trying to impose it's law and trying to kill the other almighty.

And it is the "Humanity" in us, which guides us correctly to what is right and what is wrong, and we don't need these Almighties to tell us what is right and what is wrong.

These Almighties ruled for thousands of years, but were unable to even demolish slavery or the caste system.

It was the West which first got rid of religions, and then succeeded in getting rid of these systems of slavery and caste.

The Charter of Human Rights by UN is present there, which is all based upon the guidance of Humanity. Hopefully, one day whole world accepts it and get rid of these Almighties once and for all.

By the way, it does not matter if we succeed or fail, while our only duty is to do the struggle at our best. Nevertheless, it seems that younger generations are automatically abandoning the religions and more and more turning towards non-religiousness.

 

[Azmi]

Imran bhai needs to focus on what makes Pakistani Muslims some of the poorest and most backward population in entire South Asia. Treatment of Muslims in India shouldn't be his concern.

As I mentioned above, we all are Humans First, and then comes any nationalities or religions.

And every Human has a right to criticize if another fellow human being is facing discrimination any where in the world.

Thus Imran Khan and we all have full rights to criticize the discrimination against the Indian minorities, against the killings of innocent Rohingyas in Burma etc.

Similarly, whole world including Indian PM Modi has all the rights to criticize Pakistan and Taliban for the plight of Pakistani Hindus.

I am in full favour of criticism, but not one sided criticism.

 

[Azmi]

Indian Muslims get better education, healthcare, a more secure environment, yet Imran chose to sound stupid with his comment forgetting the state of Pakistani Muslims. If he claims to be better than past leaders, perhaps he should start acting that way.

This is totally wrong approach.

Better education or healthcare does not compensate for the state of FEAR in which Indian Muslims are living at moment.

Pakistanis may be poor and in worst economical situation, but still they are leading a much HAPPIER life than Indian Muslims.

In fact there was a report too by UN about it. Let me find it so that this wrong approach comes to an end.


O, got it.


Pakistan ranked happiest among neighbouring countries: UN report

As compared to this, there is Sachal Report, and even reports by UN and many human rights organisations which are unanimous that Indian Muslims are leading a life full of FEAR and depression.

 

[enkidu_]

That's precisely why I mentioned South Asia, imagine being worst of the worst and yet point fingers at a neighbor just to get some cheers from crowd back home.

Indian Muslims get better education, healthcare, a more secure environment, yet Imran chose to sound stupid with his comment forgetting the state of Pakistani Muslims. If he claims to be better than past leaders, perhaps he should start acting that way.

like your fellow Hindi you're again into a materialistic reading. The essential for a Muslim is not his belly but his heart, spirit over matter, so when you bring stuff like jobs it's tangential and not what Imran Khan has been referring to.

I'll try another angle : as you know, for whatever reasons (let's not go there), the Mughal Empire, with its Hindu majority, under Aurangzeb, represented 20% of world's GDP. In Modi's India it's around 7% (while its population also represents a bigger share of world's population than in Aurangzeb times, but anyway). Now, would you trade Modi's India for Aurangzeb's Mughal Empire because of the GDP, and also other parameters like less poverty, education etc as documented by Gandhi's disciple Dharampal, but still have a Hindu genocider at the head of this hypothetical resurrected empire ? Or would you still prefer Modi's India, where at least you have the dignity to live as a proud Hindu and express your Hinduism as you wish ?

Unless you think that being Hindu is having three rotis instead of one and then yeah the US/Europe/Gulf are doing better for Hindus than Modi's India.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I'll try another angle : as you know, for whatever reasons (let's not go there), the Mughal Empire, with its Hindu majority, under Aurangzeb, represented 20% of world's GDP. In Modi's India it's around 7% (while its population also represents a bigger share of world's population than in Aurangzeb times, but anyway). Now, would you trade Modi's India for Aurangzeb's Mughal Empire because of the GDP, and also other parameters like less poverty, education etc as documented by Gandhi's disciple Dharampal, but still have a Hindu genocider at the head of this hypothetical resurrected empire ? Or would you still prefer Modi's India, where at least you have the dignity to live as a proud Hindu and express your Hinduism as you wish ?

another of your stupid comparisons. modi's india when he had hardly got to be in office for 5 years, and he doesn't control the national institutions vs aurangzeb's india where he got to rule undisputed for 50 years.

neither the poverty now is due to modi or the large share in GDP was due to aurangzeb. the industrial revolution was soon going to leave behind everyone in gdp share anyway.

 

[enkidu_]

another of your stupid comparisons. modi's india when he had hardly got to be in office for 5 years, and he doesn't control the national institutions vs aurangzeb's india where he got to rule undisputed for 50 years.

neither the poverty now is due to modi or the large share in GDP was due to aurangzeb. the industrial revolution was soon going to leave behind everyone in gdp share anyway.

as usual you didn't got my point : as I said "let's not go there" for why the GDP was so high, etc I'm just proposing an hypothetical scenario, what would a Hindu proud of his religion (not materialist, "moderate", etc) choose between economic prosperity or spiritual security ? That's the crux of the whole debate.

 

[CricketCartoons]

as usual you didn't got my point : as I said "let's not go there" for why the GDP was so high, etc I'm just proposing an hypothetical scenario, what would a Hindu proud of his religion (not materialist, "moderate", etc) choose between economic prosperity or spiritual security ? That's the crux of the whole debate.

the GDP statement was tangential. point was yours wasnt a valid comparison. tell me how modi's 5 years as prime minister can be called modi's india the same way aurangzeb's 50 year old monarchy could be?

economic prosperity and religion are not exclusive. economic prosperity forms part of the religion for a hindu. that is why hinduism is the truly superior religion, where other religions call money as evil and glorify suffering in this world, hinduism encourages you to earn more money so that you can help others and do good karma. verily, hinduism is the word of God.

 

[Zeeraq]

Well, he is a pretty slow PM, he only just realised the 'supposed' reason why Pakistan was created ?

He knows the reason and he was just telling it to the students in Balochistan.

 

[ILcricket]

He knows the reason and he was just telling it to the students in Balochistan.

Trying to justify existence of your nation after 71 years does not sound very bright .

 

[Greenstorm]

Trying to justify existence of your nation after 71 years does not sound very bright .

Its important because some not so friendly neighbour has invested a lot to create confusion among people in Pakistan.

 

[Zeeraq]

Trying to justify existence of your nation after 71 years does not sound very bright .

It was just a figure of speech and Geo is obsessed with reporting & twisting anything regarding Imran Khan.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Why are people comparing minorities of India with minorities of Pakistan?

Logic is that Muslims are suffering in India shows Pakistan was needed for them.

So, Muslims of India should be compared with Muslims of Pakistan.


Unemployment rate - It's 6% in Pakistan and 3-4% in India

Literacy - 58% in Pakistan and 58% in India

Muslims below poverty line - 40% in Pakistan and 30% in India

Please list other indicators for comparison. Those numbers may not be completely accurate.

It won't be too difficult to show while Muslims have been lagging behind in India, but they still enjoy better condition than Pakistani muslims. Muslims are discriminated more in Pakistan.

Fear and intimidation by fascists rent a mob everywhere. More prevalent in rural areas and goes under the media radar... willy nilly you get beaten to death on mere suspicion of stepping out of line. and then online, people like you come along and pretend everything is super well... how morally corrupt can one be?

 

[Eagle_Eye]

As I mentioned above, we all are Humans First, and then comes any nationalities or religions.

And every Human has a right to criticize if another fellow human being is facing discrimination any where in the world.

Thus Imran Khan and we all have full rights to criticize the discrimination against the Indian minorities, against the killings of innocent Rohingyas in Burma etc.

Similarly, whole world including Indian PM Modi has all the rights to criticize Pakistan and Taliban for the plight of Pakistani Hindus.

I am in full favour of criticism, but not one sided criticism.

The difference I see is, Pakistanis are happy to criticise themselves for the woeful short comings.

Whereas, as you can see in this thread, and I have seen it over the years here, the bharat defenders will swarm online to repeat lies, in the hope that that if its repeated often enough, people will start to believe it.

 

[Azmi]

The difference I see is, Pakistanis are happy to criticise themselves for the woeful short comings.

Whereas, as you can see in this thread, and I have seen it over the years here, the bharat defenders will swarm online to repeat lies, in the hope that that if its repeated often enough, people will start to believe it.

Yes, I could see how blindly the BJP supporters defend the madness of Hindutva.

These BJP supporters have made Indian Society extreme polarized. They have alienated not only the Indian Muslims, but due to their fanatic Hindutva, they have also alienated all other Indian minorities too along with Dalits and Secular Hindus.

Thus BJP supporters only narrowly manage to get majority in India (while vote bank of other parties is divided). Thus base of BJP's vote bank is never going to be increased due to their fanaticism and India is going to stay a highly polarized country.

Sooner of later, BJP will also become alone internationally, as world has started showing reaction against this extreme fanatic Hindutva too.

 

[slipcatch]

Yes, I could see how blindly the BJP supporters defend the madness of Hindutva.

These BJP supporters have made Indian Society extreme polarized. They have alienated not only the Indian Muslims, but due to their fanatic Hindutva, they have also alienated all other Indian minorities too along with Dalits and Secular Hindus.

Thus BJP supporters only narrowly manage to get majority in India (while vote bank of other parties is divided). Thus base of BJP's vote bank is never going to be increased due to their fanaticism and India is going to stay a highly polarized country.

Sooner of later, BJP will also become alone internationally, as world has started showing reaction against this extreme fanatic Hindutva too.

This!

Current Indian government can’t afford to be in talk with Pakistan for peace, they’ll lose everything if BJP/RSS were to engaged with Pakistan.

Their nationalists supporters, the likes of Tusker,Napa, joshila don’t know what to do so they come up with the most ridiculous excuse to defend BJP/RSS of not to engaging with Pakistan.

Eventually the Indian government, regardless who is in power, will have to come to the table for the dialogues without any pre-conditions.

 

[enkidu_]

the GDP statement was tangential. point was yours wasnt a valid comparison. tell me how modi's 5 years as prime minister can be called modi's india the same way aurangzeb's 50 year old monarchy could be?

I'll try again, even simpler, forget our pious emperor Aurangzeb and Modi-JI : you have the choice between

1) a Hindu genocider who would make Bharat great again ;

2) a faithful Hindu but who would make progress at a slower rate ;

A Hindu nationalist, aware of his roots, religious imperatives and longing to express all of that, like you, would choose which option ?

economic prosperity and religion are not exclusive. economic prosperity forms part of the religion for a hindu. that is why hinduism is the truly superior religion, where other religions call money as evil and glorify suffering in this world, hinduism encourages you to earn more money so that you can help others and do good karma. verily, hinduism is the word of God.

Economic prosperity is also valued in Islam, the prophet (s) himself began as a merchant and the Islamic society has been described as a merchant society, and that's how it was propagated in Sub Saharan African and places like Malaysia and Indonesia, but the Islamic vision is not the Protestant (specifically Calvinist) vision of material prosperity as being a sign of divine election - in Islam the richest man is the one aware of his existential poverty, in the sense that all your human attributes - let alone your material wealth - is a debt you have towards Allah swt, one of His names being "Al Ghani", which is generally translated as "the rich" but more particularly means "independent from" - even the richest Muslims is always dependent on Divine mercy.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I'll try again, even simpler, forget our pious emperor Aurangzeb and Modi-JI : you have the choice between

1) a Hindu genocider who would make Bharat great again ;

2) a faithful Hindu but who would make progress at a slower rate ;

A Hindu nationalist, aware of his roots, religious imperatives and longing to express all of that, like you, would choose which option ?

Why do I have only two options? and neither of them makes sense. how can a hindu genocider make Bharat great again. And why should faith in religion be a criteria for a good administrator. Just because you cannot think outside binary, don't expect others to do the same. come back with better examples.

Economic prosperity is also valued in Islam, the prophet (s) himself began as a merchant and the Islamic society has been described as a merchant society, and that's how it was propagated in Sub Saharan African and places like Malaysia and Indonesia, but the Islamic vision is not the Protestant (specifically Calvinist) vision of material prosperity as being a sign of divine election - in Islam the richest man is the one aware of his existential poverty, in the sense that all your human attributes - let alone your material wealth - is a debt you have towards Allah swt, one of His names being "Al Ghani", which is generally translated as "the rich" but more particularly means "independent from" - even the richest Muslims is always dependent on Divine mercy.

usury is forbidden in islam while only usury that is exploitative is a sin in hinduism, otherwise interest is permitted. which shows islam doesnt have the concept of time value of money, which hinduism has, and which the world has accepted now. verily, Bhagwan ji knows best.

 

[ahsan17]

Unemployment rate - It's 6% in Pakistan and 3-4% in India

Where did you get these numbers from?

Muslims below poverty line - 40% in Pakistan and 30% in India

World bank has consistently shown a much better for Pakistan v/s India. Where are you getting the 40% rate from? Not all poverty rates are the same - if you use the WB source and use the same poverty line, Pakistan is significantly ahead.

 

[ahsan17]

There seems to be a lot of "whataboutism" from India - not just in this this but in general. Their public seems to be offended as soon as you criticize anything about their country, usually retorting with arguments such as "worry about your own country" or claiming some other country has the same problems. But these people never follow their own advice - they "worry" about other countries shamelessly and put them down at each turn. Hypocrites of the highest order.

 

[ILcricket]

Its important because some not so friendly neighbour has invested a lot to create confusion among people in Pakistan.

victims forever

 

[ILcricket]

Its important because some not so friendly neighbour has invested a lot to create confusion among people in Pakistan.

innocent victims forever

 

[someone21]

So according to many here, Muslims are under fear when they dont get their choice of person. That’s actually called being undemocratic intolerant. And the solution of the Muslims to still vote for the same leaders and Congress party for which they are poor and many other problems. Its a pity about their democratic values

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So according to many here, Muslims are under fear when they dont get their choice of person. That’s actually called being undemocratic intolerant. And the solution of the Muslims to still vote for the same leaders and Congress party for which they are poor and many other problems. Its a pity about their democratic values

It's a shame the non-Muslims can't make them vote for BJP, that would fix the Muslim democratic values.

 

[Minnowbasher]

I don't see anything wrong with what imran said. Yes minorities are treated badly in Pakistan also but that's not the point. The point is had Pakistan not been a large number of muslims would have to suffer due to the severely anti-Muslim government of India.