16th August - Hundreds of protesters clash with police in Indian Kashmir: AFP

[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BREAKING?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#BREAKING</a> Hundreds of protesters clash with police in Indian Kashmir <a href="https://t.co/4a9TpNhvQZ">pic.twitter.com/4a9TpNhvQZ</a></p>— AFP news agency (@AFP) <a href="https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1162360809357488129?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 16, 2019</a></blockquote>
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[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/UPDATE?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#UPDATE</a> Hundreds of protesters in Indian-administered <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Kashmir?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Kashmir</a> clashed with police on Friday, even as New Delhi said it would begin restoring phone lines after a 12-day communications blackout. <a href="https://t.co/21NhOJTzqI">https://t.co/21NhOJTzqI</a> <a href="https://t.co/x1FnqLnzMq">pic.twitter.com/x1FnqLnzMq</a></p>— AFP news agency (@AFP) <a href="https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1162386029795598337?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 16, 2019</a></blockquote>
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[Abdullah719]

 

[MenInG]

Made up news.

All is well in Kashmir and by tomorrow every person will be rich /end

 

[troodon]

Made up news.

All is well in Kashmir and by tomorrow every person will be rich /end

Right after Friday Prayers. Peaceful Prayer followed by rampage and protests.

Kashmir will be better with India. They may not be rich, but their future will be more secure with India than you know who...

 

[Bilal_103]

Kashmiris will never accept India. What people dont understand is, it's a endless cycle.

 

[Extra_Cover]

I don't know what is happening in UNSC meeting today, but one of the points Pakistan should be stressing in that meeting is to have a UNSC fact finding team go into the region and in a week put forward their results towards UNSC members.

 

[troodon]

Kashmiris will never accept India. What people dont understand is, it's a endless cycle.

As long as India is majority Hindu.

 

[Hermoine Green]

Obviously these news are NOT true.

 

[Bilal_103]

The sad thing is majority of Indians are celebrating the use of pellet guns and weapons against the civilians. I mean look at Twitter and Instagram and you have Indians being happy that the army is hurting the protesters. How could you claim them be your own and also celebrate oppressing them?

 

[MenInG]

Right after Friday Prayers. Peaceful Prayer followed by rampage and protests.

Kashmir will be better with India. They may not be rich, but their future will be more secure with India than you know who...

maybe and just maybe, people there dont like Indian hegemony, could it be?

 

[Asim_khan]

Right after Friday Prayers. Peaceful Prayer followed by rampage and protests.

Kashmir will be better with India. They may not be rich, but their future will be more secure with India than you know who...

India would've been better under the British, but you know there's this little thing called Freedom..

 

[troodon]

maybe and just maybe, people there dont like Indian hegemony, could it be?

Not Hegemony. I am not the one to sugar coat stuff. A chunk of people will not accept Hindu rule (as they see it). These people are severely brainwashed by Mullahs and extremist propaganda.

 

[troodon]

India would've been better under the British, but you know there's this little thing called Freedom..

British are from Europe. They have nothing to do with India historically. Kashmir is and was part of Hindu culture for thousands of years. Islam is only new there (just a few centuries old at best).

So your equation of British to India holds no ground.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Not Hegemony. I am not the one to sugar coat stuff. A chunk of people will not accept Hindu rule (as they see it). These people are severely brainwashed by Mullahs and extremist propaganda.

As a self declared athiest, you call out Mullah extremists but wont call out Pandit extremists. India claiming to be a secular democracy has voted in Hindutva extremists but this doesnt seem to be visible to you?


On topic. Very sad to see people having no freedom. They have every right to protest this disgusting occupation. I hope they all stay as safe as possible.

 

[Extra_Cover]

Not Hegemony. I am not the one to sugar coat stuff. A chunk of people will not accept Hindu rule (as they see it). These people are severely brainwashed by Mullahs and extremist propaganda.

How big is this chunk in your opinion? 10%, 20%, 50% or 75% above in your opinion?

 

[Abdullah719]

Not Hegemony. I am not the one to sugar coat stuff. A chunk of people will not accept Hindu rule (as they see it). These people are severely brainwashed by Mullahs and extremist propaganda.

You really think all Kashmiris who don't want to be a part of India are 'brainwashed by Mullahs'? I am afraid you don't know much about the ground realities then.

 

[Syed1]

This must be fake news as well.... need authentic and fair news from such esteemed media houses such as Hindustan Times, Times of India, Hindutva Daily and Mera Bharat Mahan News.

 

[Runner Up]

I am very impressed. They are holding play cards whereby current date is mentioned to shut up those who always say these are old footage. Very intelligent. Well done.

 

[Runner Up]

A small video

 

[Kroll]

Right after Friday Prayers. Peaceful Prayer followed by rampage and protests.

Kashmir will be better with India. They may not be rich, but their future will be more secure with India than you know who...

Of course, just like the Muslims that were massacred after Babri Mosque demolition and in Gujarat.

 

[Akki malhotra]

Of course, just like the Muslims that were massacred after Babri Mosque demolition and in Gujarat.

By that sense hindus are also not safe in India. Train carrying hindu pilgrims were burnt by muslims before the gujrat famous riots, they might have thought its still mughal era and it's ok and be like every other day to kill hindus.
Secondly after babari demolition, where still ram mandir is pending, which should have been made in 47 only, there were many blasts in bombay. So all things go hand in hand in India.
Muslims are safest in India out all islamic countries barring few here and there

 

[jadaja]

All are paid goons who carrying Pakistani flags, it is all trying to get attention.Nothing major and Indian govt is doing the right thing.Whoever waves Pakistani flag on Indian soil deserve what they are getting from police.

Day by day these goons will reduce.

 

[Abdullah719]

All are paid goons who carrying Pakistani flags, it is all trying to get attention.Nothing major and Indian govt is doing the right thing.Whoever waves Pakistani flag on Indian soil deserve what they are getting from police.

Day by day these goons will reduce.

What if everyone is waving Pakistan flags

 

[troodon]

Of course, just like the Muslims that were massacred after Babri Mosque demolition and in Gujarat.

Their future is still more secure in India.

I do not see any Muslims in India queuing up to migrate to the Land of Pakistan. Anyways, Muslims in Pakistan are not safe either. Too many Pakistanis get killed by Muslim extremists in Pakistan.

 

[jadaja]

What if everyone is waving Pakistan flags

They won't it is India, if they want to wave Pakistani flag let them migrate to Pakistan and wave it all they want.Let Pakistan become a great host to them.

 

[Abdullah719]

They won't it is India, if they want to wave Pakistani flag let them migrate to Pakistan and wave it all they want.Let Pakistan become a great host to them.

From 'our Kashmiri' brothers and 'We will make Kashmir great again' to 'Go to Pakistan'.

 

[Asim_khan]

British are from Europe. They have nothing to do with India historically. Kashmir is and was part of Hindu culture for thousands of years. Islam is only new there (just a few centuries old at best).

So your equation of British to India holds no ground.

What exactly is Hindu culture? Is it the stuff in the north or the stuff in the south? Cos they aren't exactly the same are they. Would the Pandits worship the same way someone from Kerala would?

Then again Kashmiri would probably relate closer to the British anyway, cos they wouldn't fetishize the light skin of their women for one.

And when did Islam reach Kerala? A few centuries at best? Or is it over a Millennia?

 

[Kroll]

By that sense hindus are also not safe in India. Train carrying hindu pilgrims were burnt by muslims before the gujrat famous riots, they might have thought its still mughal era and it's ok and be like every other day to kill hindus.
Secondly after babari demolition, where still ram mandir is pending, which should have been made in 47 only, there were many blasts in bombay. So all things go hand in hand in India.
Muslims are safest in India out all islamic countries barring few here and there

I personally would never condone anything like that but how do you know the train was burnt by Muslims? I thought the narrative on this was disputed and in fact it was all ** so that an attack could be launched on the Muslims.

 

[jadaja]

From 'our Kashmiri' brothers and 'We will make Kashmir great again' to 'Go to Pakistan'.

We will send them please welcome them into Pakistan with open arms and ask them leave our Kashmir and India alone.

 

[rhony]

maybe and just maybe, people there dont like Indian hegemony, could it be?

Don't think anybody is denying what you said. It's there for everybody to see. But kashmir is India's lifeline. Can't let it go.

 

[rhony]

What if everyone is waving Pakistan flags

Then entire India will descend upon Kashmir and will wave Indian flags. There's no 370 anymore. Anybody can live there.

 

[rhony]

What exactly is Hindu culture? Is it the stuff in the north or the stuff in the south? Cos they aren't exactly the same are they. Would the Pandits worship the same way someone from Kerala would?

Then again Kashmiri would probably relate closer to the British anyway, cos they wouldn't fetishize the light skin of their women for one.

And when did Islam reach Kerala? A few centuries at best? Or is it over a Millennia?

Ignorance is baffling. The brits and west were the true racists based on "COLOR". Learn your history before being embarrassed.

 

[rhony]

I personally would never condone anything like that but how do you know the train was burnt by Muslims? I thought the narrative on this was disputed and in fact it was all ** so that an attack could be launched on the Muslims.

Read international reports. It's all true.

 

[rhony]

I am very impressed. They are holding play cards whereby current date is mentioned to shut up those who always say these are old footage. Very intelligent. Well done.

Now that's really stupid. Somebody tell them to hold a news paper instead. Anybody can print a white sheet with a date of 20/20/20 and take a picture.

 

[Kroll]

Then entire India will descend upon Kashmir and will wave Indian flags. There's no 370 anymore. Anybody can live there.

If entire India descends upon Kashmir and starts waving Indian flags, then entire Kashmir should descend upon the vacated areas and start waving Pakistan flags.

 

[Civil]

Their future is still more secure in India.

Stats don't back up your opinion ..but you have your right to it.

It is hard to make a conclusive general statement .

Safety levels statswise are the same in both countries.
women quality of life in India is rock bottom.
Happiness levels Pakistan much greater.
Wealth distribution much more equal in pak.
This without mentioning the amount of soldiers in the valley and current Indian ruling party's stance on Muslims.

So It is still only opinions in the end... but more likely their future is better off not in India

 

[rhony]

If entire India descends upon Kashmir and starts waving Indian flags, then entire Kashmir should descend upon the vacated areas and start waving Pakistan flags.

So they will move out then. I guess 370 repeal has merits

 

[rhony]

Stats don't back up your opinion ..but you have your right to it.

It is hard to make a conclusive general statement .

Safety levels statswise are the same in both countries.
women quality of life in India is rock bottom.
Happiness levels Pakistan much greater.
Wealth distribution much more equal in pak.
This without mentioning the amount of soldiers in the valley and current Indian ruling party's stance on Muslims.

So It is still only opinions in the end... but more likely their future is better off not in India

It is debatable yes. The only positive is they will be economically better in India while they are religiously aligned with Pakistan. Religion doesn't feed one. So the choice is clear for smart people.

 

[Kroll]

Read international reports. It's all true.

I believe it's still factually disputed. But for argument sake, say it was true, does that justify the state sponsored massacre of thousands of innocent people? Why not let justice take care of things by dealing with the alleged perpetrators without all the killing or is that too much to ask in secure India?

 

[rhony]

I believe it's still factually disputed. But for argument sake, say it was true, does that justify the state sponsored massacre of thousands of innocent people? Why not let justice take care of things by dealing with the alleged perpetrators without all the killing or is that too much to ask in secure India?

Nothing is justified. All I said was the incidents were true. You have 19 year kids shooting kindergarten kids in US in schools. Is that justified? Is US not a safe country or democracy? If there are sick individuals, then the government can't help. I actually had a chance to speak to some junior level politician from India once. He is not even from the BJP party. When the Godra discussion came up, he said it happened because of the combination of two things. 1) Minorities burned down the most religious hindus in a train. Once a minority group does that to a majority in any country, the repurcussions will be fatal. Imagine a few hindus or christians burning down a train a ith Muslims in it.
2) the government was afraid that there will be a lot of casualties across India and it will be uncontrollable. So they decided to contain it in an area by giving the perpetrators a free hand . Instead of 2000 there would have been hundreds of thousands dead.

 

[Civil]

It is debatable yes. The only positive is they will be economically better in India while they are religiously aligned with Pakistan. Religion doesn't feed one. So the choice is clear for smart people.

Stats again don't back this as a given . It is possible yes , as under previous article 370 we saw they got lots of money from the center. But now that the article has been removed it is unlikely for them to be that much more well off in India that it should sway their feelings about whos rule they want to live under

given that some say the wealth inequality in India is second only to Russia . It is More likely the region's wealth would be exploited for powerful few like the rest of the nation.

Also India's joblessness rate is highest in decades. And doubts are being cast upon if economy's growth was ever as high as stated this decade. To wrap this up if you further add to the fact that minorities get the least of the small pie .

With their independence maybe would be the same scenario. No way of knowing but definitely not a certainty like you make it seem.

If demilitarized They could be a crucial stopover on belt and road and tourism could be a boon.

 

[rhony]

Stats again don't back this as a given . It is possible yes , as under previous article 370 we saw they got lots of money from the center. But now that the article has been removed it is unlikely for them to be that much more well off in India that it should sway their feelings about whos rule they want to live under

given that some say the wealth inequality in India is second only to Russia . It is More likely the region's wealth would be exploited for powerful few like the rest of the nation.

Also India's joblessness rate is highest in decades. And doubts are being cast upon if economy's growth was ever as high as stated this decade. To wrap this up if you further add to the fact that minorities get the least of the small pie .

With their independence maybe would be the same scenario. No way of knowing but definitely not a certainty like you make it seem.

If demilitarized They could be a crucial stopover on belt and road and tourism could be a boon.

You are throwing around big words that don't belong in this context. All you need to care about is investments in the region. They will go high providing jobs. Real estate prices will increase with demand. Tourism will increase once it's safe.

The income inequality just means there are more billionaires. Look at per capita incomes and you will see there is growth in the last decade. Joblessness is calculated for organized and unorganized sectors and India doesn't have a sophisticated way to do that yet. Growth is around 5 to 6 percent on all accounts. Chinese are at 4 percent. These two economies lie their growth rates because they want to woo investments. This is not new for kashmiris. They have been living under India's umbrella already. The state govt looted so far and the money will be spent widely going forward.

 

[Civil]

You are throwing around big words that don't belong in this context. All you need to care about is investments in the region. They will go high providing jobs. Real estate prices will increase with demand. Tourism will increase once it's safe.

The income inequality just means there are more billionaires. Look at per capita incomes and you will see there is growth in the last decade. Joblessness is calculated for organized and unorganized sectors and India doesn't have a sophisticated way to do that yet. Growth is around 5 to 6 percent on all accounts. Chinese are at 4 percent. These two economies lie their growth rates because they want to woo investments. This is not new for kashmiris. They have been living under India's umbrella already. The state govt looted so far and the money will be spent widely going forward.

None of these words were big. they are completely in context . Like I said you can disagree if you like it'snyour opinion but not a given if you look at the numbers.

You say "Investments going high" as it is a given ...joblessness and 4-5percent growth in mainland India is not gonna push companies to all of a sudden go do it big in Kashmir with a hostile populace. Which BJP person would be glad to see this hostile populace get prosperous. They would go to exploit . The jobs you state would not get them prosperous to the level that they would decide they love India all of a sudden... don't be naive.

And the number of billionaires proves my point. The ambanis aren't going to go there ..unless they leave with every cent and more that they make back to Mumbai. And power too them they are businessman. But because they won't be concerned about kashmiris... investment and jobs is not gonna be an epiphany to change kashmiri attitudes . That is why income inequality and growth is a totally in context . It shows if mainland India is not necessarily better off save for the billionaires. Then how will kashmiris be necessarily better off .

 

[Pakistanian]

Indians think gentrifying Kashmir and driving up real estate prices subsequently pricing out the natives from affordable housing is a good thing . I guess they haven't learned from Chinese doing the same in Canada and Australia.

 

[rhony]

None of these words were big. they are completely in context . Like I said you can disagree if you like it'snyour opinion but not a given if you look at the numbers.

You say "Investments going high" as it is a given ...joblessness and 4-5percent growth in mainland India is not gonna push companies to all of a sudden go do it big in Kashmir with a hostile populace. Which BJP person would be glad to see this hostile populace get prosperous. They would go to exploit . The jobs you state would not get them prosperous to the level that they would decide they love India all of a sudden... don't be naive.

And the number of billionaires proves my point. The ambanis aren't going to go there ..unless they leave with every cent and more that they make back to Mumbai. And power too them they are businessman. But because they won't be concerned about kashmiris... investment and jobs is not gonna be an epiphany to change kashmiri attitudes . That is why income inequality and growth is a totally in context . It shows if mainland India is not necessarily better off save for the billionaires. Then how will kashmiris be necessarily better off .

Oh the ignorance. "Which BJP person would be glad to see the hostile populace prosperous" . " The jobs you state would not get them prosperous to the level.......". I think I'm debating with an 8 year old.

Read about what Mukesh Ambani said about this barely a few days ago. And you don't need to think hard and confuse yourself about these. Just read already existing material online.

 

[rhony]

Indians think gentrifying Kashmir and driving up real estate prices subsequently pricing out the natives from affordable housing is a good thing . I guess they haven't learned from Chinese doing the same in Canada and Australia.

Canada, Australia belong to China? J&K belongs to India. Now that's the difference isn't it. Don't overthink it. That's not even a priority right now. First step is to settle army, pandits, RSS in separate protected zones. Long way to go for the other stuff.

 

[Civil]

Oh the ignorance. "Which BJP person would be glad to see the hostile populace prosperous" . " The jobs you state would not get them prosperous to the level.......". I think I'm debating with an 8 year old.

Read about what Mukesh Ambani said about this barely a few days ago. And you don't need to think hard and confuse yourself about these. Just read already existing material online.

Lol keep calling names who cares. You never responded directly to any points.

I'll summarize again that Kashmiris are not necessarily better off economically in india With some data.

-Mainland India's economic windfall was exaggerated.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...conomists-create-own-benchmarks-idUSKCN1SF0L6

- whatever growth there was is disproportionately not in the hands of the common indian .

https://www.business-standard.com/a...china-credit-suisse-study-118101801033_1.html

-this is more so pronounced in minorities.

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/no-respite-from-poverty-for-muslims/article25429598.ece

Now as it is ..especially after this lockdown Kashmir population has hostility to Indian gov.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/kashmir-seethes-under-indian-security-clampdown-11565899945

And let's not forget the BJP vote bank itself wants jobs and is frustrated.

https://www.apnews.com/712d2436088149a0b61ea61fd9ac242e

And BJP votebank supports bjp a because of the muscular approach shown to minorities to end 'appeasement'

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/11/world/asia/modi-india-elections.html

Despite the hostility kashmiris have toward india and the fact that 1 in 6 Kashmiris have faced torture... the Kashmir per capita GDP is still surprisingly higher than one would think . So you would have to improve these job and income levels well above average mainland Indian....to maybe even think of them losing the animosity they have . That too after a generation or two.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_GDP_per_capita

So you are proposing... the investments and jobs that mainland India's BJP voter needs badly right now! will be gladly diverted to minority Kashmiris who have anti-national view.

And if Kashmiris did see an uptick from this investments they would start having a GDP per capita equal to India's richer states, this would make BJP vote bank furious as they want this uptick!! What would kashmiri do sell their house and with their money. go to mainland India and flaunt this wealth?

goes back to my point..how can you say Kashmiri's future is definitely better under India when no data or history shows this to be likely case . Be it economic , safety happiness etc..

Remember I'm talking ethnic Kashmiris not transplants.

 

[Itachi]

goes back to my point..how can you say Kashmiri's future is definitely better under India when no data or history shows this to be likely case . Be it economic , safety happiness etc..

Remember I'm talking ethnic Kashmiris not transplants.

Case in point. North East part of India. Today NE is much better than what it was during 90s.

 

[rhony]

Lol keep calling names who cares. You never responded directly to any points.

I'll summarize again that Kashmiris are not necessarily better off economically in india With some data.

-Mainland India's economic windfall was exaggerated.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...conomists-create-own-benchmarks-idUSKCN1SF0L6

- whatever growth there was is disproportionately not in the hands of the common indian .

https://www.business-standard.com/a...china-credit-suisse-study-118101801033_1.html

-this is more so pronounced in minorities.

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/no-respite-from-poverty-for-muslims/article25429598.ece

Now as it is ..especially after this lockdown Kashmir population has hostility to Indian gov.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/kashmir-seethes-under-indian-security-clampdown-11565899945

And let's not forget the BJP vote bank itself wants jobs and is frustrated.

https://www.apnews.com/712d2436088149a0b61ea61fd9ac242e

And BJP votebank supports bjp a because of the muscular approach shown to minorities to end 'appeasement'

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/11/world/asia/modi-india-elections.html

Despite the hostility kashmiris have toward india and the fact that 1 in 6 Kashmiris have faced torture... the Kashmir per capita GDP is still surprisingly higher than one would think . So you would have to improve these job and income levels well above average mainland Indian....to maybe even think of them losing the animosity they have . That too after a generation or two.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_GDP_per_capita

So you are proposing... the investments and jobs that mainland India's BJP voter needs badly right now! will be gladly diverted to minority Kashmiris who have anti-national view.

And if Kashmiris did see an uptick from this investments they would start having a GDP per capita equal to India's richer states, this would make BJP vote bank furious as they want this uptick!! What would kashmiri do sell their house and with their money. go to mainland India and flaunt this wealth?

goes back to my point..how can you say Kashmiri's future is definitely better under India when no data or history shows this to be likely case . Be it economic , safety happiness etc..

Remember I'm talking ethnic Kashmiris not transplants.

I can send you one link that Pakistan is after IMF for 6 bil. It's all over the news. How will Kashmiris be better off under Pak compared to India? Indian companies. will invest more than that in Kashmir in the next couple of years if things cool down. You already have Gilgit and AJK that make less money than J&K as it is. J&K makes almost double than these two places. And they are peaceful too. What did u do there? India is positioning itself as a tech center. They have been doing that for a couple of decades. Hundreds of millions of Indians will visit kashmir if it's peaceful. That's more than the population of Pakistan. That's incredible tourism. Foreign visitors already visit India a lot more than they do to Pakistan. Your army is always in some kind of war. That's enormous tourism revenue. All the rest of the links you sent are issues with every country. Automation and AI are going to kill a lot of jobs. There was an article recently that India has more AI skilled Engineers than in any country. How is Pakistan positioning for the next revolution? So, yeah Kashmiris are better off with India as India has potential, resources.

 

[Civil]

I can send you one link that Pakistan is after IMF for 6 bil. It's all over the news. How will Kashmiris be better off under Pak compared to India? Indian companies. will invest more than that in Kashmir in the next couple of years if things cool down. You already have Gilgit and AJK that make less money than J&K as it is. J&K makes almost double than these two places. And they are peaceful too. What did u do there? India is positioning itself as a tech center. They have been doing that for a couple of decades. Hundreds of millions of Indians will visit kashmir if it's peaceful. That's more than the population of Pakistan. That's incredible tourism. Foreign visitors already visit India a lot more than they do to Pakistan. Your army is always in some kind of war. That's enormous tourism revenue. All the rest of the links you sent are issues with every country. Automation and AI are going to kill a lot of jobs. There was an article recently that India has more AI skilled Engineers than in any country. How is Pakistan positioning for the next revolution? So, yeah Kashmiris are better off with India as India has potential, resources.

Sure paste the link if you wish. It does not make any change to my argument or adress any points. are we arguing whose state government is richer? I was showing how despite India's government being richer so many people are poor..especially those that happen to have demographic similarities to Kashmiris.

You again missed responding to the point and went with a blanket statement of "Indian companies will spend more if things cools down" I showed you there is a huge statistical reason they won't probably do that to the benefit of the locals.. which I think is what you are trying to argue.

I was hoping you would bring tourism up. Because all the things you say about tourism in Kashmir ...guess what That will apply too Pakistan too. Because If Kashmir is either independent or with pakistan in this hypothetical scenario. that means this bloody issue is finally resolved and both countries have no need to have large military expenditure... which affects Pakistan more. So the tourism argument you cannot use as only a possible benefit to India it would be a benefit to Pakistan as well. In this hypothetical scenario that things have cooled down.

Now that your investment and tourism arguments are not valid. Let's visit the proposterous AI comment you made

https://www.businessinsider.in/engi...hine-learning-report/articleshow/68516807.cms

 

[Heisenberg111]

I can send you one link that Pakistan is after IMF for 6 bil. It's all over the news. How will Kashmiris be better off under Pak compared to India? Indian companies. will invest more than that in Kashmir in the next couple of years if things cool down. You already have Gilgit and AJK that make less money than J&K as it is. J&K makes almost double than these two places. And they are peaceful too. What did u do there? India is positioning itself as a tech center. They have been doing that for a couple of decades. Hundreds of millions of Indians will visit kashmir if it's peaceful. That's more than the population of Pakistan. That's incredible tourism. Foreign visitors already visit India a lot more than they do to Pakistan. Your army is always in some kind of war. That's enormous tourism revenue. All the rest of the links you sent are issues with every country. Automation and AI are going to kill a lot of jobs. There was an article recently that India has more AI skilled Engineers than in any country. How is Pakistan positioning for the next revolution? So, yeah Kashmiris are better off with India as India has potential, resources.

Blah, blah, blah, if AJK and GB are so miserable and suffering under Pakistan, why don't they want to join India?. If IOK is so peaceful and prosperous, why do Kashmiris hate India? The amount of ** you spew, you should be thankful that you are tolerated here.

 

[Civil]

Case in point. North East part of India. Today NE is much better than what it was during 90s.

Though there are many similarities and you are right Assam is much better. A lot of that issue was rooted in poverty and neglect in itself.

Thus improving that poverty helped. Assam still is relatively quite poor though. The Kashmir issue clearly is not just rooted in poverty. There are more things at play.

 

[Slog]

Case in point. North East part of India. Today NE is much better than what it was during 90s.

Northeast issues were primarily rooted in poverty and economic neglect. That is not the root cause of Kashmir

 

[Napa]

Stats don't back up your opinion ..but you have your right to it.

It is hard to make a conclusive general statement .

Safety levels statswise are the same in both countries.

This doesn't make sense. If safety levels are the same statewise, how did they end up being different for the entire countries?

women quality of life in India is rock bottom.

As someone who lived for decades in India, I can tell you that women's quality of life is very high. The idea that rapes are higher in India is fake news. Individual incidents are not representative of the entire country, and data says that India is one of the safest countries for women. The rates of rapes in South Africa and Sweden are a mind-boggling 75X and 35X higher than India.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate

Happiness levels Pakistan much greater.

If you believe in "happiness research", good for you. The same research claims that the "happiness" levels in Saudi Arabia far exceeds that of India.

Wealth distribution much more equal in pak.

I won't say "much more", but it is true that it is "more equal". Gini for India is 35.2 and for Pakistan is 30.7.

India is overall a much richer country now, so the difference in Ginis do not imply that the Pakistani poor are actually better off. "Pakistan has the worst infant mortality rate in the world".

https://tribune.com.pk/story/163944...t-countries-still-face-alarming-risks-unicef/

This without mentioning the amount of soldiers in the valley and current Indian ruling party's stance on Muslims.

So It is still only opinions in the end... but more likely their future is better off not in India

One thing you also need to consider if the future is not only about religion and nationality but also opportunities people get to improve their lives. Firms like Accenture, IBM and Microsoft employ hundreds of thousands of people in India and Kashmiris get the opportunity to work in these firms. The owner of one of India's largest tech firm is a Muslim. To a Pakistani these opportunities are only there if they leave their country.

 

[Civil]

This doesn't make sense. If safety levels are the same statewise, how did they end up being different for the entire countries?



As someone who lived for decades in India, I can tell you that women's quality of life is very high. The idea that rapes are higher in India is fake news. Individual incidents are not representative of the entire country, and data says that India is one of the safest countries for women. The rates of rapes in South Africa and Sweden are a mind-boggling 75X and 35X higher than India.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate



If you believe in "happiness research", good for you. The same research claims that the "happiness" levels in Saudi Arabia far exceeds that of India.



I won't say "much more", but it is true that it is "more equal". Gini for India is 35.2 and for Pakistan is 30.7.

India is overall a much richer country now, so the difference in Ginis do not imply that the Pakistani poor are actually better off. "Pakistan has the worst infant mortality rate in the world".

https://tribune.com.pk/story/163944...t-countries-still-face-alarming-risks-unicef/



One thing you also need to consider if the future is not only about religion and nationality but also opportunities people get to improve their lives. Firms like Accenture, IBM and Microsoft employ hundreds of thousands of people in India and Kashmiris get the opportunity to work in these firms. The owner of one of India's largest tech firm is a Muslim. To a Pakistani these opportunities are only there if they leave their country.

On your safety point. The index shows there is not enough difference for the poster to just claim India is automatically better choice for a kashmiri.

https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=India&country2=Pakistan

On your women point why would you assume rape is the only barometer to measure women well being? Anyways this is qualitative point I made based on surveys I read. I do genuinely believe that you saw good treatment of women as I did growing up in Karachi. Point is it doesn't make India some automatic choice for kashmiri woman it leaves debate.

On your happiness research when the rankings are that far apart between India and pakistan it does warrant a mention. Saudi being ahead of India makes sense and to me doesn't debunk the survey.

Finally as I pointed out to rhony on his absurd AI engineer comment. And on your opportunities point... what track record or data shows especially under BJP that Kashmir will get the opportunity from Accenture IBM when mainland India itself needs these jobs and to retrain for them first.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.busi...rs-not-fit-for-jobs-says-survey/1/330869.html

So I don't think there enough data to sway a Kashmir that India is the better choice on economy safety etc.

 

[Napa]

On your safety point. The index shows there is not enough difference for the poster to just claim India is automatically better choice for a kashmiri.

https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=India&country2=Pakistan

It appears petty crimes occur at similar rates though the not so petty "violent crimes such as assault and armed robbery" occur at a significantly higher rate in Pakistan (48.73 vs. 39.51).

Anyway, I think [MENTION=134505]rhony[/MENTION] was presenting talking about the economic opportunities. While you may doubt measures of Indian GDP growth, you only need to look at what India exports and what Pakistan exports to figure out the massive gap that has appeared between these two countries.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/indias-top-10-exports/
http://www.worldstopexports.com/pakistans-top-10-exports/

Anyone who is upwardly mobile and wants to work in a modern industry would prefer to be in India. And the above links are for merchandise, they do not account for India's $126 B of IT and IT services exports.

On your women point why would you assume rape is the only barometer to measure women well being? Anyways this is qualitative point I made based on surveys I read. I do genuinely believe that you saw good treatment of women as I did growing up in Karachi. Point is it doesn't make India some automatic choice for kashmiri woman it leaves debate.

Qualitative surveys by people like Arundhati Roy are useless. Indians worship more women Goddesses than men Gods, and old women (Matajis) occupy the highest level of respect and adoration.

On your happiness research when the rankings are that far apart between India and pakistan it does warrant a mention. Saudi being ahead of India makes sense and to me doesn't debunk the survey.

In no way, shape, or form would I ever want to live in Saudi Arabia. These happiness research is quite cultural, ask a stupid question get a stupid reply.

Finally as I pointed out to rhony on his absurd AI engineer comment. And on your opportunities point... what track record or data shows especially under BJP that Kashmir will get the opportunity from Accenture IBM when mainland India itself needs these jobs and to retrain for them first.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.busi...rs-not-fit-for-jobs-says-survey/1/330869.html

So I don't think there enough data to sway a Kashmir that India is the better choice on economy safety etc.

I think the data of exports shows very different trajectories for the economies of the two countries. Anyway, thanks for a civil discussion. Your points are well made, though I do not agree.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

This doesn't make sense. If safety levels are the same statewise, how did they end up being different for the entire countries?



As someone who lived for decades in India, I can tell you that women's quality of life is very high. The idea that rapes are higher in India is fake news. Individual incidents are not representative of the entire country, and data says that India is one of the safest countries for women. The rates of rapes in South Africa and Sweden are a mind-boggling 75X and 35X higher than India.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate



If you believe in "happiness research", good for you. The same research claims that the "happiness" levels in Saudi Arabia far exceeds that of India.



I won't say "much more", but it is true that it is "more equal". Gini for India is 35.2 and for Pakistan is 30.7.

India is overall a much richer country now, so the difference in Ginis do not imply that the Pakistani poor are actually better off. "Pakistan has the worst infant mortality rate in the world".

https://tribune.com.pk/story/163944...t-countries-still-face-alarming-risks-unicef/



One thing you also need to consider if the future is not only about religion and nationality but also opportunities people get to improve their lives. Firms like Accenture, IBM and Microsoft employ hundreds of thousands of people in India and Kashmiris get the opportunity to work in these firms. The owner of one of India's largest tech firm is a Muslim. To a Pakistani these opportunities are only there if they leave their country.

Bolded part.

What a contradiction lol. Why did you leave India then?

 

[the Great Khan]

Made up news.

All is well in Kashmir and by tomorrow every person will be rich /end

Stop talking about kashmir..start talking about balochistan and burgeristan and Chappelkebabistan where the Pakistan army is killing Chappal kababs

 

[the Great Khan]

Blah, blah, blah, if AJK and GB are so miserable and suffering under Pakistan, why don't they want to join India?. If IOK is so peaceful and prosperous, why do Kashmiris hate India? The amount of ** you spew, you should be thankful that you are tolerated here.

Look he''s right..AJK is a cesspit..the pak army just doesn't let you move anywhere..I went a few years ago to mirpur..and stopped at this hotel..the downtrodden locals just started bombarding me with chai and parathay..I mean it was so intimidating...I felt I was in a chai occupied zone..

Then I finally made it to my cousins fortified compound where she was using an innovative method of flowers and trees to protect her family from the pak army's evil spy drones that would appear on her daughters gaming machine now and then..

Never seen such oppression , in my life..

 

[Vegitto1]

Ignorance is baffling. The brits and west were the true racists based on "COLOR". Learn your history before being embarrassed.

Answer the question? What is Hindu culture?

Is it the culture of Bihar? Gujrat? uttar pardesh? Tamil Nadu? Punjab?

There was no such thing as India. At best it was a name given to the region by the West upon discovering it. It was never a unified nation/country but a number of princely states

 

[rhony]

Blah, blah, blah, if AJK and GB are so miserable and suffering under Pakistan, why don't they want to join India?. If IOK is so peaceful and prosperous, why do Kashmiris hate India? The amount of ** you spew, you should be thankful that you are tolerated here.

That's the thing!! With all the peace and support of Pak, they still can't make any money. Maybe they can under a different management. There are Indians who hate India. Look at Arundhati Roy. That's called democracy. It's ok if they hate as long as they follow laws.

 

[rhony]

Answer the question? What is Hindu culture?

Is it the culture of Bihar? Gujrat? uttar pardesh? Tamil Nadu? Punjab?

There was no such thing as India. At best it was a name given to the region by the West upon discovering it. It was never a unified nation/country but a number of princely states

Hindu is a way of life. Hindu culture is what the people in this part of the world followed. Some parts have fallen and changed their identity after occupation

 

[Napa]

Bolded part.

What a contradiction lol. Why did you leave India then?

Primarily because of two reasons: one when I left the same opportunities were not there, two I had a scholarship from a university that was hard to say no to.

 

[Napa]

Answer the question? What is Hindu culture?

Is it the culture of Bihar? Gujrat? uttar pardesh? Tamil Nadu? Punjab?

There was no such thing as India. At best it was a name given to the region by the West upon discovering it. It was never a unified nation/country but a number of princely states

Hindu religious culture is based on a set of philosophies rather than a certain religious book like the Semitic religions. Basically Hindu religious culture allows a lot more questioning than Semitic religions do.

Though they are in some ways different from each other, Hindu cultures have many elements which are common to each other and make them more alike.

 

[rhony]

Sure paste the link if you wish. It does not make any change to my argument or adress any points. are we arguing whose state government is richer? I was showing how despite India's government being richer so many people are poor..especially those that happen to have demographic similarities to Kashmiris.

You again missed responding to the point and went with a blanket statement of "Indian companies will spend more if things cools down" I showed you there is a huge statistical reason they won't probably do that to the benefit of the locals.. which I think is what you are trying to argue.

I was hoping you would bring tourism up. Because all the things you say about tourism in Kashmir ...guess what That will apply too Pakistan too. Because If Kashmir is either independent or with pakistan in this hypothetical scenario. that means this bloody issue is finally resolved and both countries have no need to have large military expenditure... which affects Pakistan more. So the tourism argument you cannot use as only a possible benefit to India it would be a benefit to Pakistan as well. In this hypothetical scenario that things have cooled down.

Now that your investment and tourism arguments are not valid. Let's visit the proposterous AI comment you made

https://www.businessinsider.in/engi...hine-learning-report/articleshow/68516807.cms

Poverty alleviation is an ongoing process. There is no country except the Chinese that have alleviated more people out of poverty than India in the last two decades. It was 250+ million out of poverty in the last decade and half As per UN estimates, by 2030 there will be no extreme poverty in India. A whopping 600 mil Indians are part of the middle class and that is why India has economic clout.

Pakistan on the other hand has been in a cash crunch. There was an issue with balance of payments just a few months ago with foreign reserves barely enough for a couple of months of imports. Inflation is in or close to double digits. I'm assuming when you say "demographic similarities" , you mean Muslims. There are several socio economic reasons for that across the world. I'm sure you can find enough material online on that subject.

Companies invest to the benefit of the locals? Most of the investments will be for tourism, retail and in energy. Locals should and will be preferred for employment. You already have AJk and Gilgit with peace and stability. However you haven't been able make any headway with either investments or tourism. The conflict is limited to certain districts in J&K. Most of Jammu and parts of Kashmir should see rapid progress in the next few years.

As far as tech skills and AI goes, research about Indian iT. The skills out of college are not the key as you showed in the article. It's the training that companies provide to Engineers after they are employed. Read about it. One of the reasons why Indians have monopolized mid level positions across the world in IT services is because of this model. Millions of dollars have been invested in this sector for 2 decades and it will continue making India one of the hubs for the next gen tech.

Finally check this out. Forbes says it is 13 but many experts believe India is around 15 to 20 years behind China. The reforms and the growing private sector investments are an indication that India is on this path. It is a country on an upswing and a few million Kashmiris would be wise to stick with India to ride along that wave.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...rect-india-is-some-13-years-behind-china/amp/