30th ODI ton for Virat Kohli - Equals Ricky Ponting

[shaz619]

I don't rate him in Tests as much as others but he's a good player and among the best of his time but falls a level or two below in comparison to past legends as it stands. It also doesn't help him that he's not fired despite getting to play in so many big games. I have him ahead of Amla at the moment but maybe not ABDV ; it's all really close though and no one is too far ahead compared to their peers when it comes to the undisputed no.1 so useless going around in circles given that it's so subjective. I think he can turn his career around looking into the future, expect him to have good tour of England during the Test series and 2019 World Cup. It is time to appreciate the modern legend of Kohli even though his followers are so damn annoying like The Great Khali fans

 

[Bilal7]

For the last time, the finals of the CT 13 was a T20 match. Had that been a 50 over game, Kohli would have scored no more than five runs, given his track record.

 

[shaz619]

For the last time, the finals of the CT 13 was a T20 match. Had that been a 50 over game, Kohli would have scored no more than five runs, given his track record.

True that but I was there in attendance; the wicket was a bit wet though, there were repeated stop and starts; the ground crew had a tough job covering the wicket and it was a bit gloomy as well so conditions were a little dodgy, it was a good knock regardless. However what goes against him is that many top players rarely get the chances to play so many high profile games and outside the CT13 final he hasn't done so well, although the knock against Bangladesh in the CT semis was beautiful admittedly but it was a semi which is still a KO game to be fair

 

[leatherface58]

For the last time, the finals of the CT 13 was a T20 match. Had that been a 50 over game, Kohli would have scored no more than five runs, given his track record.

Had chucking been outlawed before, Ajmal would not have lasted 3 months given his post-ban record. See how easy it is to come up with nonsense although I will admit I am not as good at it as you are. You have perfected it down to a science.

 

[CanadianG00se]

A joke. Kohli isn't half the batsman that Ponting was and he's third best from this era, behind ABD and Amla. Why? Well, let's see:

- Kohli has ZERO centuries against Australia, England, South Africa or Pakistan away, in won matches.

- His average in tournament finals is in the 20s and he has failed in two high profile matches in the past two years, the 2015 WC semi-final and the 2017 CT final.

- He has failed time and time again against the moving ball, whether it's gettinf schooled the Saffers and English overseas or the likes of Junaid at home. Kohli is a bunny against seam and swing.

- He's built his hype on smashing Sri Lanka all over the universe and destroying teams at home but you would be hard pressed to find a couple of innings of note away from home, against a team other than the hapless Lankans.

If AB and Viv are rated at 95 in ODIs and Sachin is a 92, Kohli will probably be an 85 at best.

Im pretty sure Kohli scored a Ton against Pakistan in WC 15 in that was won by India. This may not exactly be an away(pakistans home) but as we know India-Pakistan do not play bilaterals.

 

[CanadianG00se]

For the last time, the finals of the CT 13 was a T20 match. Had that been a 50 over game, Kohli would have scored no more than five runs, given his track record.

Can you also tell me next week's powerball number??

 

[CanadianG00se]

Sachin still played a couple of decent innings in knockout games but yes, overall his record was lacking that match-winning knock which is probably why so many people rate Viv as the greatest. If he had played a great knock in a final, I'm sure that would balance the scales a bit.

Most people would say that Kohli is already a great in ODIs and not many would argue against that. It's just that you can't call him the Greatest on the basis of all these knocks against Sri Lanka and the ilk, you need something more. Specially when you take into account the fact that scores have never been higher in cricket history than they are now and it's increasingly becoming a batsmen's game.

Like i mentioned, most sane fans only calls him 'Work in Progress for GOAT'. He is probably few good innings in WC away from being the best. But even if he fails to deliver, he would still be far better than Tendulkar who never played single match winning innings in knockout game.

In 96 WC, choked against Pakistan in QF and against SL in SF
In 2003 WC choked against minnows Kenya in SF and went missing in Final against Aussie.
In 2011 Went missing in finals, and against Pakistan, he was dropped half a dorzen times.

So, no even Tendulkar never had one single knock yet he is ATG. #WeirdLogic.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I really like to see Punter having a score like 183 runs while chasing. or 133 runs in 90 odd balls while chasing to increase the chance of his side to reach the final. Some of the chasing that Kohli has orchestrated cannot be done by mere mortals. You can put n number of filters. He is cut above the rest while chasing. Chasing is a lot harder than setting targets. I am a big fan of Viv. But when he played ODI was in formative stage. He was the only one who had the attitude. Rest were in Test match mode. Not like Viv did well in all the finals. Richards has played in 3 finals. 5, 138, 33. Failed twice.

 

[Chrish]

Kohli is a hack.. all he can do is piling up runs on flattest decks with most batsmen friendly rules/ conditions ever seen. He can't be considered any good since he never played in 90s/ 80s

 

[jnaveen1980]

One can bring whole gamut of filters to discredit even the best of the best. Pure cricket fan know when they see . You don't need filters. Kohli has been the prized wicket of India for the last 5 years. He will continue to be one for years to come. I would not trade him with any batsman in the world.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

excellent player but much inferior to kohli and there's no shame in that ofcourse

kohli is atg but saeed wasn't

Ok fair enough.
And sorry if you find my tone a bit harsh Didn't intend to.

 

[kingusama92]

GOAT.

By the time he retires, it won't even be close.

 

[todfod 11]

King of Soft Runs and SL Bully.

soft runs?? seriously go back and check what pak great like wasim saqlain lateef and akhter think abouts him. 18 hundreds when chasing you call it soft??

 

[Cric1234]

Half of his hundreds have come against Sri Lanka Bangladesh and West Indies regardless still
A great record and already pushing the top 3 of all time in ODIs.
Can he keep it up can he score big in tournament finals that will determine his future position.

 

[Aman]

Needs to lead India to a World Cup to finish as the undisputed LOI GOAT.

 

[Aman]

Kohli is a hack.. all he can do is piling up runs on flattest decks with most batsmen friendly rules/ conditions ever seen. He can't be considered any good since he never played in 90s/ 80s

A lot of haters man, you need to just watch to see how good he is. There isn't a player in world cricket who scares me more than him in ODIs.

 

[Aman]

Half of his hundreds have come against Sri Lanka Bangladesh and West Indies regardless still
A great record and already pushing the top 3 of all time in ODIs.
Can he keep it up can he score big in tournament finals that will determine his future position.

Babar Azam has 4 of his 5 100s against WI and the 5th was a selfish match losing innings against Aus.

Babar is world class and Kohli is overrated

 

[Cric1234]

Babar Azam has 4 of his 5 100s against WI and the 5th was a selfish match losing innings against Aus.

Babar is world class and Kohli is overrated

Well it's a fact he has 15 hundreds against Sri Lanka West Indies and Bangladesh who are not generally one of the top 5 teams in recent times.
Nothing to do with Babar or Guptill or Warner or any player actually.

 

[Dingolfy]

Needs to lead India to a World Cup to finish as the undisputed LOI GOAT.

To me, he needs to win us an ODI series in SA or Australia.

 

[kingusama92]

Well it's a fact he has 15 hundreds against Sri Lanka West Indies and Bangladesh who are not generally one of the top 5 teams in recent times.
Nothing to do with Babar or Guptill or Warner or any player actually.

To be fair, SL was a solid team earlier in his ODI career.

They went to the WC final in 2011.

 

[Cric1234]

To be fair, SL was a solid team earlier in his ODI career.

They went to the WC final in 2011.

They were decent then 6 years ago Kohli was less influential then recently their decline is evident losing to Zimbabwe shows the level nowadays.

 

[dauntless]

The best batsman in ODIs he just needs to improve his world Cup stats.Very happy for him.

 

[Chrish]

Amazing how Kohli and Starc have barely even played against each other after all these years.

Both at their peak years without crossing a path.

 

[maxamax]

check saeed anwar's record in australia,south africa and New Zealand in odis. he was pathetic and a walking wicket.

kohli is ten times the batsman saeed anwar ever was

But he played in different conditions, not on cakes. I would not rate Kohli any more than YK or Misbah who have made bulk of their tons on such cakes. He can never compete the calibre of Tendulkar or Anwar or Ponting. Its almost like BCCI is setting up a soap for him where he can be a leader of the pack.

 

[Justcrazy]

Babar Azam has 4 of his 5 100s against WI and the 5th was a selfish match losing innings against Aus.

Babar is world class and Kohli is overrated

Babaar has the potential , but he has lot to prove before he can come close to Kohli.

Babaar has to win matches chasing.

 

[Leo23]

But he played in different conditions, not on cakes. I would not rate Kohli any more than YK or Misbah who have made bulk of their tons on such cakes. He can never compete the calibre of Tendulkar or Anwar or Ponting. Its almost like BCCI is setting up a soap for him where he can be a leader of the pack.

lol what?

comparing younis and misbah to kohli in odis is like comparing zaheer khan to wasim akram

90% of saeed anwar's odi runs have come on flat asian wickets and against weak indian,sri lankan bowlers

in australia,south africa,new zealand on bouncy and swinging tracks he was a tailender

the guy is not fit to tie kohli's shoe laces. he is a nobody compared to him

 

[Stallion__]

Babar has got to be the most overrated batsman around if a Kohli related thread finds his name multiple times in it.

On topic, it's a freakish record to have. The guy is already a legend. The only ODI batsman who is clearly ahead of him is Viv.

 

[Lefthanded]

Haters with arbitrary stats everywhere.

Everyone else played weak teams as well, and aside from the likes of Sachin and a few Australian batsmen, no one has been a batting beast in global tournaments.

No one is above Kohli in white ball cricket. He might as well be the Bradman of those forms.

Really want him to take his Test game to another level. Doubt he can do that, but really needs to take his Test game to the likes of Dravid, Sanga, Lara, Ponting etc

What a batsman.

Tendulkar is just a symbolic peak to climb at this point.

 

[CanadianG00se]

Babaar has the potential , but he has lot to prove before he can come close to Kohli.

Babaar has to win matches chasing.

Babar will never come close to Kohli.

Babar is poor man's Kohli.

 

[maxamax]

90% of sachin and ponting tons were on flat tracks as well

odi tracks have been flat for decades

By his logic,


Even M Patel is better bowler than W Younis.

W Younis recieved phainty in 1996 WC and, recieved another epic phainty by the hands of Tendulkar in 2003 WC.

So, W Younis is king of soft wickets LOL

Things can be different for Kohli as he's played 90-95% of his games on soft wickets. And the remaining 5-10% shows that he's never among greats even if he's milking runs like a crazy person.

 

[CanadianG00se]

Things can be different for Kohli as he's played 90-95% of his games on soft wickets. And the remaining 5-10% shows that he's never among greats even if he's milking runs like a crazy person.

What kind of logic is that?

Kohli will play on wickets that is served to him and others. He will face the bowlers that are in front of him.
What exactly is "soft wickets"?

Thing is many fans dont like Kohli because of his 2-3 failures in ICC events. Fair criticism, but to belittle his achievements makes no sense. If what Kohli achieved is 'soft and useless' then why has other batsmen in this era failed to match that.

 

[squarecut]

The logic is, if Lara and others scores centuries, they are the greatest batsmen in the world, even if their centuries come in similar JAMODIs, but if Kohli scores centuries, they are meaningless because they are scored in JAMODIs.

I request the admins to introduce "sour grapes" smilies. That will come quite handy in such threads.

 

[jeetu]

Conversion ratios ( min 10 centuries)

[table= class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Inns [/td][td]100 [/td][td]100 ratio [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HM Amla (SA) [/td][td]153 [/td][td]25 [/td][td]16.34 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]V Kohli (INDIA) [/td][td]186 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]16.13 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Q de Kock (SA) [/td][td]85 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]14.12 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DA Warner (AUS) [/td][td]94 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]13.83 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]S Dhawan (INDIA) [/td][td]89 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]12.36 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JE Root (ENG) [/td][td]87 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]11.49 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AB de Villiers (Afr/SA) [/td][td]213 [/td][td]24 [/td][td]11.27 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SR Tendulkar (INDIA) [/td][td]452 [/td][td]49 [/td][td]10.84 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ME Trescothick (ENG) [/td][td]122 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]9.84 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]LRPL Taylor (NZ) [/td][td]176 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]9.66 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HH Gibbs (SA) [/td][td]240 [/td][td]21 [/td][td]8.75 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CG Greenidge (WI) [/td][td]127 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]8.66 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MJ Guptill (NZ) [/td][td]143 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]8.39 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CH Gayle (ICC/WI) [/td][td]264 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]8.33 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RG Sharma (INDIA) [/td][td]157 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]8.28 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RT Ponting (AUS/ICC) [/td][td]365 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]8.22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saeed Anwar (PAK) [/td][td]244 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]8.20 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]G Gambhir (INDIA) [/td][td]143 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]7.69 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ME Waugh (AUS) [/td][td]236 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]7.63 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]NJ Astle (NZ) [/td][td]217 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]7.37 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SC Ganguly (Asia/INDIA) [/td][td]300 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]7.33 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]TM Dilshan (SL) [/td][td]303 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]7.26 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DL Haynes (WI) [/td][td]237 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]7.17 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]WU Tharanga (Asia/SL) [/td][td]199 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]7.04 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]G Kirsten (SA) [/td][td]185 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]7.03 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]IVA Richards (WI) [/td][td]167 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]6.59 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KC Sangakkara (Asia/ICC/SL) [/td][td]380 [/td][td]25 [/td][td]6.58 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]BC Lara (ICC/WI) [/td][td]289 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]6.57 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ST Jayasuriya (Asia/SL) [/td][td]433 [/td][td]28 [/td][td]6.47 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ML Hayden (AUS/ICC) [/td][td]155 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]6.45 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]EJG Morgan (ENG/IRE) [/td][td]174 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]6.32 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]V Sehwag (Asia/ICC/INDIA) [/td][td]245 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]6.12 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammad Hafeez (PAK) [/td][td]190 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]5.79 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AC Gilchrist (AUS/ICC) [/td][td]279 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]5.73 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MN Samuels (WI) [/td][td]177 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]5.65 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammad Yousuf (Asia/PAK) [/td][td]273 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]5.49 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JH Kallis (Afr/ICC/SA) [/td][td]314 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]5.41 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GC Smith (Afr/SA) [/td][td]194 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]5.15 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Yuvraj Singh (Asia/INDIA) [/td][td]278 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]5.04 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DPMD Jayawardene (Asia/SL) [/td][td]418 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]4.55 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]S Chanderpaul (WI) [/td][td]251 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]4.38 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Ijaz Ahmed (PAK) [/td][td]232 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]4.31 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MS Atapattu (SL) [/td][td]259 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]4.25 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MS Dhoni (Asia/INDIA) [/td][td]259 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]3.86 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Dravid (Asia/ICC/INDIA) [/td][td]318 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]3.77 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]PA de Silva (SL) [/td][td]296 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]3.72 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Inzamam-ul-Haq (Asia/PAK) [/td][td]350 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]2.86 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

[table= class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]50+ scores [/td][td]50+ ratio [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]V Kohli (INDIA) [/td][td]74 [/td][td]39.78 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HM Amla (SA) [/td][td]58 [/td][td]37.91 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JE Root (ENG) [/td][td]32 [/td][td]36.78 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AB de Villiers (Afr/SA) [/td][td]77 [/td][td]36.15 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]S Dhawan (INDIA) [/td][td]32 [/td][td]35.96 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]IVA Richards (WI) [/td][td]56 [/td][td]33.53 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CG Greenidge (WI) [/td][td]42 [/td][td]33.07 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JH Kallis (Afr/ICC/SA) [/td][td]103 [/td][td]32.80 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SR Tendulkar (INDIA) [/td][td]145 [/td][td]32.08 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]G Gambhir (INDIA) [/td][td]45 [/td][td]31.47 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]G Kirsten (SA) [/td][td]58 [/td][td]31.35 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SC Ganguly (Asia/INDIA) [/td][td]94 [/td][td]31.33 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DL Haynes (WI) [/td][td]74 [/td][td]31.22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KC Sangakkara (Asia/ICC/SL) [/td][td]118 [/td][td]31.05 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DA Warner (AUS) [/td][td]29 [/td][td]30.85 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MJ Guptill (NZ) [/td][td]44 [/td][td]30.77 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RT Ponting (AUS/ICC) [/td][td]112 [/td][td]30.68 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]LRPL Taylor (NZ) [/td][td]54 [/td][td]30.68 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Q de Kock (SA) [/td][td]26 [/td][td]30.59 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Dravid (Asia/ICC/INDIA) [/td][td]95 [/td][td]29.87 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ML Hayden (AUS/ICC) [/td][td]46 [/td][td]29.68 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GC Smith (Afr/SA) [/td][td]57 [/td][td]29.38 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MS Dhoni (Asia/INDIA) [/td][td]75 [/td][td]28.96 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammad Yousuf (Asia/PAK) [/td][td]79 [/td][td]28.94 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ME Waugh (AUS) [/td][td]68 [/td][td]28.81 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RG Sharma (INDIA) [/td][td]45 [/td][td]28.66 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]BC Lara (ICC/WI) [/td][td]82 [/td][td]28.37 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]S Chanderpaul (WI) [/td][td]70 [/td][td]27.89 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ME Trescothick (ENG) [/td][td]33 [/td][td]27.05 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MS Atapattu (SL) [/td][td]70 [/td][td]27.03 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Inzamam-ul-Haq (Asia/PAK) [/td][td]93 [/td][td]26.57 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]NJ Astle (NZ) [/td][td]57 [/td][td]26.27 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CH Gayle (ICC/WI) [/td][td]69 [/td][td]26.14 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]EJG Morgan (ENG/IRE) [/td][td]45 [/td][td]25.86 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saeed Anwar (PAK) [/td][td]63 [/td][td]25.82 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AC Gilchrist (AUS/ICC) [/td][td]71 [/td][td]25.45 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]PA de Silva (SL) [/td][td]75 [/td][td]25.34 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HH Gibbs (SA) [/td][td]58 [/td][td]24.17 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]WU Tharanga (Asia/SL) [/td][td]48 [/td][td]24.12 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Yuvraj Singh (Asia/INDIA) [/td][td]66 [/td][td]23.74 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DPMD Jayawardene (Asia/SL) [/td][td]96 [/td][td]22.97 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]TM Dilshan (SL) [/td][td]69 [/td][td]22.77 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammad Hafeez (PAK) [/td][td]43 [/td][td]22.63 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ST Jayasuriya (Asia/SL) [/td][td]96 [/td][td]22.17 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]V Sehwag (Asia/ICC/INDIA) [/td][td]53 [/td][td]21.63 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MN Samuels (WI) [/td][td]38 [/td][td]21.47 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Ijaz Ahmed (PAK) [/td][td]47 [/td][td]20.26 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

For the last time, the finals of the CT 13 was a T20 match. Had that been a 50 over game, Kohli would have scored no more than five runs, given his track record.

lmao this is nonsense

 

[Itachi]

Useless record.

Until he performs in the world cup when it really matters, I don't care even if he makes centuries in every other match.

 

[squarecut]

If success in ICC finals is the yardstick to judge greatness in ODI, then it automatically disqualifies majority of current and recently retired batsmen regarded as ATGs in these pages, because their team rarely made it to the finals of ICC tournaments.

So, as a ready reckoner,
Lara is rubbish (his team never reached world cup final/ ICC final).

All South African batsmen are rubbish because they never advanced to any ICC tournament finals.

Indian batsmen are rubbish (even though India have reached a few finals and some batsmen have done well there).

Pakistani batsmen are rubbish (even though Pakistan have reached one final and only new batsman has done well there).

New Zealand, England are similar to South Africa (rarely reach ICC world cup finals).

 

[squarecut]

Addition. Pakistan batsman doing well in Champions Trophy final is rubbish because he scored runs against Indian bowling, which is rubbish.

 

[Rightarmfast]

In addition to that, all Pakistani bowlers are rubbish too. Akram was able to perform only in WC, and after that he could do nothing. So much so, that he ran away from the all important match against India in 96. Thats a joke. Imran Khan lost 2-3 world cups, so that also takes away from whatever he could do in one WC that he won.

 

[ToeCrusher2]

How do pakistanis dismiss kohli's record due to his performance in world cups but in the same breath call inzi a match winner who has a pathetic average in world cups?

 

[Haz95]

Jayzuz this thread is getting way too derailed. It's a very simple argument.

Kohli is a world class batsman, a brilliant chaser and a good score setter. He has done some insane things, regardless of whether conditions were flat and/or poor bowling.

Now onto the argument against him going towards absolute greatness:
>He fails when the bowling and/or conditions are tough (I've seen MS Dhoni do well, i.e. in the series where Junaid Khan wrecked havoc)
>He failed multiple times in major tournaments- the biggest argument against someone who's supposedly in contention for the GOAT title.

What my question here is why do the same people who refuse to rate AB de Villiers, Hashim Amla etc when both of which beat Kohli in some parts while having the same weaknesses? I'll tell you why because Kohli is so convincing in bilaterals, even when the odds are against him he does insane things which makes him better to some. Fair enough against Amla he's superior since Amla is worse than Kohli in tournaments as he barely turns up to group games. But AB on the other hand actually turns up...look at the 2015 WC knock there's not a single Kohli inning on that level (AB also choked albeit at least turned up).

This has nothing to do with Anwars, Wasims, Babars and Inzis because it's not a Pakistan vs India debate as much as the Indians want it to be. It's about who's the greatest and why he is or isn't despite these ridiculous staats. Stop getting so whingy when your hero is being critiqued...

 

[Itachi]

Jayzuz this thread is getting way too derailed. It's a very simple argument.

Kohli is a world class batsman, a brilliant chaser and a good score setter. He has done some insane things, regardless of whether conditions were flat and/or poor bowling.

Now onto the argument against him going towards absolute greatness:
>He fails when the bowling and/or conditions are tough (I've seen MS Dhoni do well, i.e. in the series where Junaid Khan wrecked havoc)
>He failed multiple times in major tournaments- the biggest argument against someone who's supposedly in contention for the GOAT title.

What my question here is why do the same people who refuse to rate AB de Villiers, Hashim Amla etc when both of which beat Kohli in some parts while having the same weaknesses? I'll tell you why because Kohli is so convincing in bilaterals, even when the odds are against him he does insane things which makes him better to some. Fair enough against Amla he's superior since Amla is worse than Kohli in tournaments as he barely turns up to group games. But AB on the other hand actually turns up...look at the 2015 WC knock there's not a single Kohli inning on that level (AB also choked albeit at least turned up).

This has nothing to do with Anwars, Wasims, Babars and Inzis because it's not a Pakistan vs India debate as much as the Indians want it to be. It's about who's the greatest and why he is or isn't despite these ridiculous staats. Stop getting so whingy when your hero is being critiqued...

First complaints about thread getting derailed and then proceeds to mention amla, abd who have nothing to do with the thread

 

[Haz95]

First complaints about thread getting derailed and then proceeds to mention amla, abd who have nothing to do with the thread

Lol my mistake that post should be in the other ongoing thread...take that paragraph out and my previous point still stands

 

[Mainul]

Useless record. Got owned in the ODIs that mattered most - The 2015 WC Semi and the CT Final.. batted like a tailender in both. Proper bilateral bully lol.

Averages 23 in 8 ODI Tournament Finals and 31 in Eliminators with no hundreds. He can keep all the T20 records though where he can compete with the likes of Samuels and Brathwaite for the top spot. I'll take even Dhawan over him as an ODI batsman anyday. Kohli's record is the epitomy of soft runs and going AWOL when the stakes are high.

Yes,he is a bilateral series giant.

 

[Mainul]

How do pakistanis dismiss kohli's record due to his performance in world cups but in the same breath call inzi a match winner who has a pathetic average in world cups.

Inji took Pakistan in the final of 1992 world cup by playing one impossible knock at that time and his cameo in the final also contributed massively to Pakistan winning the world cup. Those two innings which we,the people of our generation saw it live,has been imprinted permanently on our brains. It's appeal is surely greater than all the Kohl's 30 ODI hundreds.

 

[ToeCrusher2]

Inji took Pakistan in the final of 1992 world cup by playing one impossible knock at that time and his cameo in the final also contributed massively to Pakistan winning the world cup. Those two innings which we,the people of our generation saw it live,has been imprinted permanently on our brains. It's appeal is surely greater than all the Kohl's 30 ODI hundreds.

And Inji (lol) averaged 22 in the world cups, he averaged what 3(?) in 2003 world cup. Just one innings is enough to judge a whole career? LOL

 

[Mainul]

And Inji (lol) averaged 22 in the world cups, he averaged what 3(?) in 2003 world cup. Just one innings is enough to judge a whole career? LOL

What he did in 1992 world cup,enough to cover up his failures in other world cups.A world cup win makes you forget everything.Its really special.Tendulkar had a phenomenal record in world cups until 2011. But that could not win a world cup.His effort in India's win in 2011 will always speak louder than the previous world cups in combined.

 

[ToeCrusher2]

What he did in 1992 world cup,enough to cover up his failures in other world cups.A world cup win makes you forget everything.Its really special.Tendulkar had a phenomenal record in world cups until 2011. But that could not win a world cup.His effort in India's win in 2011 will always speak louder than the previous world cups in combined.

Thats not how the world works, if that was true then Gautam Gambhir >> Lara

 

[squarecut]

In case you are not able to appreciate what 30 ODI centuries mean, just try and count the number of ODI centuries made by all the current Bangladeshi players. That may give you some idea that 30 is not some small number of ODI centuries.

 

[squarecut]

Seeing that Virat Kohli's centuries are supposedly against rubbish bowling attacks and therefore they deserve to be pooh poohed, I inverstigated which were these teams with rubbish bowling attacks that allowed Kohli to score his ODI centuries.
These teams are:
Sri Lanka (8), Australia (5), West Indies (4), England (3), New Zealand (3), Bangladesh (3), Pakistan (2), South Africa (1) and Zimbabwe (1).

Conclusion- All nine above mentioned teams have rubbish bowling attacks that allow Kohli to score his meaningless ODI centuries.

 

[Proactive_]

Anybody who has been following ODI cricket for the past 10 years knows that the standard and relevance of ODI cricket has fallen sharply. In the 90s there used to be multi team tournaments and series like every six months in which the teams had to take stock of the situation after every game regarding the NRR as well and the tournament wasn't over right until the last final (In case of tournaments with Best of 3 finals like Aus Tri Series).

Compare that to today, there's hardly any ODI cricket of relevance barring the ICC Tournaments. Almost all the ODI cricket are now pointless ODIs played on phattas. The series is already over with many games remaining and there can be a team which wins 3 games by 1 run and lose 2 by 200 runs and yet win the series. That's just nonsensical and does ODI cricket no good, something which was taken care of in tournaments that actually had some meaning back in the day.

See Virat Kohli's performances in the recently concluded series. When the series was alive:

82*
3
4

Average: 44.5

When the series was already won:

131
110*

Average: 241

Overall average: 110

Anybody who knows how to put ODI cricket in context knows he failed miserably in 2 out of 3 games when the series was alive and filled his boots when the series was done and dusted. That's just not how you build your legacy in ODI cricket.

In comparison, see his performances in tournaments of 3 teams or more.. Average 42 (already down from his lofty mid fifty standards). The situation becomes even more dire when you consider ICC Tournament games against top opposition where his average falls into the 30s and finally into the 20s in Tournament finals. There is a proper direct correlation to the relevance of the ODI match in progress and the fall in the golden boy's performances.

He can make all these centuries batting on phattas against 120k bowling monsters when the series is sealed, but everybody knows what he truly is worth when they see him chasing 330 in a tournament finals against a good bowling attack and how spectacularly he rises up to the challenge of a pressure K.O game.

I'll say this again, Virat Kohli is a great bilateral bully, no questions about it. But a horrible pressure player, and by pressure I don't mean chasing 325 in the 3rd ODI of the XYZ bilateral cup, by pressure I mean the stage of a big tournament game with their oppositions having their tail up, a scenario where Kohli fails many more times than not. Simply not worth the hype, sorry.

 

[jusarrived]

Things can be different for Kohli as he's played 90-95% of his games on soft wickets. And the remaining 5-10% shows that he's never among greats even if he's milking runs like a crazy person.

Kohli scores 90-95% of the times and PP logic is that everytime he scores the pitches are flat or opposition is weak. its only the times he fails , the pitches are difficult , all bowlers turn ATGs and off course ist a very important match automatically !!

 

[squarecut]

Fair enough. But what about other players that have never won an ICC ODI final ? Players from South Africa, England, New Zealand, West Indies.

Even for Pakistan, which player performed in the final in the ICC champions trophy final ? By your own logic, his century against India in the final means nothing because:
(1) It was against a rubbish bowling
(2) It was while batting first
(3) It was after getting life.

So there. It is all rubbish cricketers playing rubbish matches all the time.

 

[Tusker]

Anybody who has been following ODI cricket for the past 10 years knows that the standard and relevance of ODI cricket has fallen sharply. In the 90s there used to be multi team tournaments and series like every six months in which the teams had to take stock of the situation after every game regarding the NRR as well and the tournament wasn't over right until the last final (In case of tournaments with Best of 3 finals like Aus Tri Series).

Compare that to today, there's hardly any ODI cricket of relevance barring the ICC Tournaments. Almost all the ODI cricket are now pointless ODIs played on phattas. The series is already over with many games remaining and there can be a team which wins 3 games by 1 run and lose 2 by 200 runs and yet lose the series. That's just nonsensical and does ODI cricket no good, something which was taken care of in tournaments that actually had some meaning back in the day.

If these ODI tournaments were such thrilling , exciting and popular events (Like the Khaleej Times Tournament for Example ) why were they discontinued by EVERY Intl Cricket team including the minnows ?

 

[squarecut]

The "thrilling" Sharjah tournaments got discontinued after Indian Government put their foot down and refused to allow BCCI permission to participate in these match tournaments.

 

[Tusker]

The "thrilling" Sharjah tournaments got discontinued after Indian Government put their foot down and refused to allow BCCI permission to participate in these match tournaments.

Not just Sharjah ... they have been cut from all other countries too including India which used to host such tournaments from time to time.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Kohli scores 90-95% of the times and PP logic is that everytime he scores the pitches are flat or opposition is weak. its only the times he fails , the pitches are difficult , all bowlers turn ATGs and off course ist a very important match automatically !!

Couldn't have summarized better. Yes true cricket fan knows what a colossal player and a gift to Cricket kohli is.

 

[Anuj25]

The Guy has already scored 30 centuries but he is a Hack? Really?
He is definitely work in progress for greatness but calling him a hack is a stupid.

 

[UN talkz]

Fair enough. But what about other players that have never won an ICC ODI final ? Players from South Africa, England, New Zealand, West Indies.

Even for Pakistan, which player performed in the final in the ICC champions trophy final ? By your own logic, his century against India in the final means nothing because:
(1) It was against a rubbish bowling
(2) It was while batting first
(3) It was after getting life.

So there. It is all rubbish cricketers playing rubbish matches all the time.

According to logic used by SOME posters here... every player is PHATEECHAR i.e. rubbish

 

[Proactive_]

If these ODI tournaments were such thrilling , exciting and popular events (Like the Khaleej Times Tournament for Example ) why were they discontinued by EVERY Intl Cricket team including the minnows ?

What would you have preferred? This India-SL ODI series or a more interesting India-SL-Aus Tri Series? Which brand of ODI cricket would have been more intriguing? I hope that answers the question.

 

[Tusker]

What would you have preferred? This India-SL ODI series or a more interesting India-SL-Aus Tri Series? Which brand of ODI cricket would have been more intriguing? I hope that answers the question.

And how would that suddenly make the Ind-SL matches played as part of that Tri-Series any different from the current matches in the bilateral series ?

One reason why the bilateral's today are different from the past Bilateral series is the rankings .... if India lost even one match to SL it would cost points because of SL's low ranking. We basically earned lilke 0.5 points/match for all that work over a period of one month.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Haven't seen a batsman like Kohli. Viv, him, and Bevan are arguably the 3 greatest ODI batsmen of all time. With plenty of time on his side, Kohli will surpass both of them by the time he retires.

 

[Hasan2K8]

He will go past Tendulkar and least have dozen more.

 

[Proactive_]

And how would that suddenly make the Ind-SL matches played as part of that Tri-Series any different from the current matches in the bilateral series ?

One reason why the bilateral's today are different from the past Bilateral series is the rankings .... if India lost even one match to SL it would cost points because of SL's low ranking. We basically earned lilke 0.5 points/match for all that work over a period of one month.

Well firstly the matches are different because immediately the margin of defeat comes into play and contributes to the NRR. Teams are compelled towards more proactive play. That in itself elevates it from the level of a bilateral. Plus, as I said, a tournament isn't over right until the last ball of the final is bowled, whereas like the recently concluded India-SL series, the 4th and 5th matches were redundant. I'll take a 3 team tournament over a bilateral any day. Much more context to every match and a bigger stage in the form of a final(s) to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Tusker]

Well firstly the matches are different because immediately the margin of defeat comes into play and contributes to the NRR. Teams are compelled towards more proactive play. That in itself elevates it from the level of a bilateral.

That is not true at all ... plenty of matches in the Tri Series involve one or two weak teams and those games would be just as much as a "fiill your boots" endeavors as bilaterals. Khaleej Times had Zimbabwe as the 3rd team lol.

Plus, as I said, a tournament isn't over right until the last ball of the final is bowled, whereas like the recently concluded India-SL series, the 4th and 5th matches were redundant. I'll take a 3 team tournament over a bilateral any day. Much more context to every match and a bigger stage in the form of a final(s) to separate the wheat from the chaff.

thats not true at all because any loss in even one of those ODIs would cost India points.

BTW why does no board organize these multi team tournaments if they are so exciting and popular ?

And no team has ever white washed SL in SL in a 5 match bilateral series.

 

[Proactive_]

That is not true at all ... plenty of matches in the Tri Series involve one or two weak teams and those games would be just as much as a "fiill your boots" endeavors as bilaterals. Khaleej Times had Zimbabwe as the 3rd team lol.



thats not true at all because any loss in even one of those ODIs would cost India points.

BTW why does no board organize these multi team tournaments if they are so exciting and popular ?

And no team has ever white washed SL in SL in a 5 match bilateral series.

I don't think an average cricket viewer would be more concerned about what decimal of a point India would gain if they go from 3-0 to 4-0 in a bilateral series than to see a much more compelling tri series match where every match right until the final along with the margins of victory/defeat carry some meaning unlike bilaterals.

 

[CanadianG00se]

I don't think an average cricket viewer would be more concerned about what decimal of a point India would gain if they go from 3-0 to 4-0 in a bilateral series than to see a much more compelling tri series match where every match right until the final along with the margins of victory/defeat carry some meaning unlike bilaterals.

I disagree. Bilaterals or Tri series are dead concept. If Tri series were in such demands then im pretty sure most boards would want to make full use of it. Also now a days, every board have their own league and have busy schedule. Almost every team have jammed pack schedule except for may be bottom rank teams which is why we have very few tri series.

Say if we had tri series involving India-BD-SL, the interest among majority of Indian fans would be same as it was for India-SL. India-Aus-SA would generate interest among fans but its harder to find a slot where all three teams have open schedule.
I think we might see T20 Tri series popping up in near future. Quick and easy way to generate revenue and interest amongs fans.

 

[Tusker]

I don't think an average cricket viewer would be more concerned about what decimal of a point India would gain if they go from 3-0 to 4-0 in a bilateral series than to see a much more compelling tri series match where every match right until the final along with the margins of victory/defeat carry some meaning unlike bilaterals.

Speak for yourselves because India lost out on the #1 spot last year because of ONE measly point. It also cost them a lot of money.

I see your reluctance to address the main point of why these tournaments were abandoned .... whatta surprise.

 

[Mueez]

One of the BEST surely

 

[kingusama92]

Anybody who has been following ODI cricket for the past 10 years knows that the standard and relevance of ODI cricket has fallen sharply. In the 90s there used to be multi team tournaments and series like every six months in which the teams had to take stock of the situation after every game regarding the NRR as well and the tournament wasn't over right until the last final (In case of tournaments with Best of 3 finals like Aus Tri Series).

Compare that to today, there's hardly any ODI cricket of relevance barring the ICC Tournaments. Almost all the ODI cricket are now pointless ODIs played on phattas. The series is already over with many games remaining and there can be a team which wins 3 games by 1 run and lose 2 by 200 runs and yet win the series. That's just nonsensical and does ODI cricket no good, something which was taken care of in tournaments that actually had some meaning back in the day.

See Virat Kohli's performances in the recently concluded series. When the series was alive:

82*
3
4

Average: 44.5

When the series was already won:

131
110*

Average: 241

Overall average: 110

Anybody who knows how to put ODI cricket in context knows he failed miserably in 2 out of 3 games when the series was alive and filled his boots when the series was done and dusted. That's just not how you build your legacy in ODI cricket.

In comparison, see his performances in tournaments of 3 teams or more.. Average 42 (already down from his lofty mid fifty standards). The situation becomes even more dire when you consider ICC Tournament games against top opposition where his average falls into the 30s and finally into the 20s in Tournament finals. There is a proper direct correlation to the relevance of the ODI match in progress and the fall in the golden boy's performances.

He can make all these centuries batting on phattas against 120k bowling monsters when the series is sealed, but everybody knows what he truly is worth when they see him chasing 330 in a tournament finals against a good bowling attack and how spectacularly he rises up to the challenge of a pressure K.O game.

I'll say this again, Virat Kohli is a great bilateral bully, no questions about it. But a horrible pressure player, and by pressure I don't mean chasing 325 in the 3rd ODI of the XYZ bilateral cup, by pressure I mean the stage of a big tournament game with their oppositions having their tail up, a scenario where Kohli fails many more times than not. Simply not worth the hype, sorry.

The SL series example is utter nonsense.

What about the series against NZ that just happened?

When the series was alive:

85*
9
154*
45
65

India won the series 3-2.

So every game was "alive" and he averaged 119.

 

[Tusker]

The SL series example is utter nonsense.

What about the series against NZ that just happened?

When the series was alive:

85*
9
154*
45
65

India won the series 3-2.

So every game was "alive" and he averaged 119.

Doesn't count ... you see that series was at Home.

But yeah for those who know how difficult it is to bat especially batting 2nd and chasing a mammoth total after beinng 4 down for 62 ... here is a great ODI from the Series against Eng: http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/10732/scorecard/1034819/India-vs-England-1st-ODI

Any Aussie or English cricketer that did anything remotely close would probably get nominated for an OBE

 

[Proactive_]

Speak for yourselves because India lost out on the #1 spot last year because of ONE measly point. It also cost them a lot of money.

I see your reluctance to address the main point of why these tournaments were abandoned .... whatta surprise.

I don't know what an average fan analysing about the strengths of batsmen has got to do with money but ok..

As for your "why these tournaments were abandoned", it's just not relevant to the discussion since there are obviously other logistical and monetary factors at play there, what was relevant to the discussion was the question I asked about whether you would prefer a India-SL ODI series like the recently concluded one or a Ind-SL-Aus Tri series which could have easily been scheduled in place of that. Which brand of cricket would have more value at at judging the batsman's competence more . No answer, obviously.

 

[Proactive_]

The SL series example is utter nonsense.

What about the series against NZ that just happened?

When the series was alive:

85*
9
154*
45
65

India won the series 3-2.

So every game was "alive" and he averaged 119.

I've already said that Kohli is an awesome bilateral bully, no questions asked. I agree 100%, though I found this recently concluded series' scores amusing hence I posted. In tournaments and multi team series his record is pretty apparent, and it's nowhere near his bilateral heroics for some reason. He can score all the 10/10s in the monthly tests, but as long as he keeps getting those 20/50s in the final exams that actually matter, he can't be rated on par with the greats of the past, sorry.

 

[Tusker]

I don't know what an average fan analysing about the strengths of batsmen has got to do with money but ok..

The players care for these things as prize $$ and fame are involved which translates into more competitive series. This is the whole point of building a context to the Bi-lateral series.

As for your "why these tournaments were abandoned", it's just not relevant to the discussion since there are obviously other logistical and monetary factors at play there, what was relevant to the discussion was the question I asked about whether you would prefer a India-SL ODI series like the recently concluded one or a Ind-SL-Aus Tri series which could have easily been scheduled in place of that. Which brand of cricket would have more value at at judging the batsman's competence more . No answer, obviously.

If you are telling me that SL would have magically played a completely different brand of cricket in such a tri-series then you are flat out wrong.

To answer your question .... do you remember who won the Khaleej Times Tri-Series and the teams involved ? I certainly don't. And granted I wont remember many of the Bi-laterals unless something spectacular happens ( Like a Kohli 100 in 50 balls or a 5-0 whitewash or India chasing down 350 or Rohit making 250+ etc etc ) but speaking purely from a fans perspective it is not much different to the tri-series.

yes there used to be a time when any ODI cricket was a novelty and other entertainment options were limited therefore these series were dime-a-dozen but nobody has time for them anymore. Time to move on.

 

[Tusker]

I've already said that Kohli is an awesome bilateral bully, no questions asked. I agree 100%, though I found this recently concluded series' scores amusing hence I posted. In tournaments and multi team series his record is pretty apparent, and it's nowhere near his bilateral heroics for some reason. He can score all the 10/10s in the monthly tests, but as long as he keeps getting those 20/50s in the final exams that actually matter, he can't be rated on par with the greats of the past, sorry.

So you must rate Madan Lal, Brett Leen, Mitchel Johnson and many others as better fast bowlers than Waqar Younis ?

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...e=100;template=results;trophy=12;type=bowling

 

[Bilal7]

Not a single match-winning hundred against Australia, England, South Africa or Pakistan away.

That are four of the top five teams of the last several years, the fifth being India.

How is this guy anywhere near the likes of Ponting, AB and Viv when he hasn't won his team a single game against the best teams in their backyard? Forget about WCs and CTs, this guy has several other chinks in his armor.

 

[ToeCrusher2]

Not a single match-winning hundred against Australia, England, South Africa or Pakistan away.

That are four of the top five teams of the last several years, the fifth being India.

How is this guy anywhere near the likes of Ponting, AB and Viv when he hasn't won his team a single game against the best teams in their backyard? Forget about WCs and CTs, this guy has several other chinks in his armor.

Pakistan away? lol how was he supposed to score a century against pakistan away? Also pakistan is ranked 6th, sorry to break your bubble but pakistan isn't in the top 4 or top 5 teams

 

[kingusama92]

Not a single match-winning hundred against Australia, England, South Africa or Pakistan away.

That are four of the top five teams of the last several years, the fifth being India.

How is this guy anywhere near the likes of Ponting, AB and Viv when he hasn't won his team a single game against the best teams in their backyard? Forget about WCs and CTs, this guy has several other chinks in his armor.

Their last tour to AUS was hardly his fault. Their bowling capitulated.

91
59
117
106
8

India never plays PAK away nor do I think PAK was in the top 5 at any point in the past 3-4 years (ranked 9th in 2016).

It's been AUS, SA, IND, ENG, NZ.

The only real hole I've seen is in England barring that solid 100 in Cardiff. I agree there.

South Africa is more of an unknown since their last series in 2013 only allowed him to play two innings. While in 2011 he did quite well with an average of 48.25.

 

[Suleiman]

Their last tour to AUS was hardly his fault. Their bowling capitulated.

91
59
117
106
8

India never plays PAK away nor do I think PAK was in the top 5 at any point in the past 3-4 years (ranked 9th in 2016).

It's been AUS, SA, IND, ENG, NZ.

The only real hole I've seen is in England barring that solid 100 in Cardiff. I agree there.

South Africa is more of an unknown since their last series in 2013 only allowed him to play two innings. While in 2011 he did quite well with an average of 48.25.

I think a lot of neutrals changed their minds about him after his performances in the ODI series in NZ before the WC. In the 5 game series he scored big in 3 games and whenever he did he was carrying the team on his back.

 

[light]

Not to undermine the achievement but there's nothing freakish about his record. Most of his hundreds are against very weak attacks. 8 of them against Lanka alone.

He just hasn't scored when it matters and not consistently enough against the very best.

There should not be any question about his ability to score big. Every other Indian batsmens are taking on the same BOWLERS yet Virat is always on top. Every other team plays against each other aswell yet again in the modern day Virat is always on top. This argument is getting old at this point ...

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

I'll say two things which will only be FACTS !! You can then decide what you want to decide.

Virat Kohli in all Knockout games ever (Includes Quarter Finals + Semi Finals + Finals)

Games | Innings | Not Outs | Total Runs | Highest | Average | Total Balls Faced | SR



Virat Kohli in Tournament Finals