A 57 year long PakPassion

[Junaids]

Some of you will have noted my excitement today when I met the 88 year old Australian legend Neil Harvey at the hotel next to the Adelaide Oval.

To be fair to the poor man, he was only coming out of the lift when I saw him and - in contrast to my behaviour around any other former cricketer - I approached him and told him that I had been brought up on stories of him at my father's knee. He smiled.

To Australians, and to the English too, Neil Harvey is viewed like Sachin Tendulkar, the boy genius who never grew up. He was the baby of Bradman's 1948 Invincibles, and so he played with long-dead legends like Bradman, Compton, Miller and Lindwall. He in recent years has been an outspoken but generally correct analyst of the modern game. He is a national treasure. And he hit 21 Test centuries in 79 Tests at an average of 48, which is like 68 now.

My English club is Lancashire, and our home grown legend of the mid-eighties to mid-nineties was Neil Fairbrother. Neil Harvey Fairbrother, to be precise.

That's how much we English love and respect Neil Harvey, as [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION] and [MENTION=732]Gilly[/MENTION] must know.

But I think this forum is the best place to expand on this, and its peculiarly Pakistani genesis.

My father was born "British Indian" but lived in Dacca until he "returned" to England in the 1960's. ( [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] if you knew who his mother was, you'd be shocked. But I'm sworn to secrecy).

Anyway, in 1959-60, my Dad and his "West Pakistani" best friend attended the First Test in Dacca between Pakistan and Australia.

It was played in treacherous conditions on a matting wicket. For Pakistan, Hanif Mohammad opened the batting with Ijaz Butt and Fazal Mahmood led the bowling. Richie Benaud led the Aussies, who included the original Wasim Akram in the form of Alan Davidson, not to mention the original Lillee in Ray Lindwall.

Pakistan scored 200, then Australia replied with 225 including a masterly 96 by Harvey. Pakistan replied with 134, setting Australia 112 to win, which they reached with 8 wickets in hand, Harvey adding another 30 to his tally.

Harvey's 96 was probably the greatest innings ever played in Pakistan. The wicket was treacherous, and he was batting against the-then greatest left-arm paceman of all time, the spinner with the most wickets of all time, and the most feared fast bowler in the world.

And he suffered from a high fever, diarrhoea and vomiting.

When the time difference allowed, I tonight rang my father in England to tell him who I'd just met. He couldn't believe that Neil Harvey was still alive, let alone fit enough to go to the cricket.

He then asked me if I'd apologised for him. I replied "No, what for?"

And then he told me. My dad and his Pakistani friend had bounded up to the sick and exhausted Neil Harvey when he was 80 not out at the end of Day 2.

And he was so frail and exhausted that they knocked him over when they patted him on the back!

If I see him again I will pass on the apology.

He's the non-striker in this picture from that day, Day 2, 14 November 1959. And the picture makes me doubt whether Fazal Mahmood was any quicker than Asif or Philander. Looks like he bowled a lot of off-cutters though!

 

[Pakprideuk]

from that picture it makes me think whether Fazal was quicker than me. Look how close the keeper is standing!

 

[Mainul]

Dacca (present Dhaka) Stadium picture!

Thanks.

 

[shah_1]

loads of yesterday's legends hype is based on hearsay.

 

[Junaids]

from that picture it makes me think whether Fazal was quicker than me. Look how close the keeper is standing!

It's amazing isn't it?

It's like a window into ancient history.

Mind you, the six close fielders tell you that he must have been a genius with the ball.

 

[Junaids]

loads of yesterday's legends hype is based on hearsay.

Sure, but people like Benaud watched cricket from the 1930's to the 2010's.

 

[moghul]

Thread of the week. For me, very interesting , something different . Wish other PPers do the same when they travel around to watch cricket.

Yes, Fazal was a medium pacer at his fastest but was a master of "cutters" on matting wickets and also on other tracks as he was successful on all sort of wickets, in England and WI also.

With 21 centuries at average of 48 in those days made him a legend, an ATG, no doubt.

 

[Junaids]

Correction to my first post.

Harvey was playing alongside the then GOAT spin bowler and GOAT left-arm quick. It was Hanif Mohammad batting against them.

But Neil Harvey was batting against the GOAT bowler on matting.

Apologies for my original error.

 

[Hawkeye]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION], mate, you should definitely get a POTW for this.

Love your posts. But, Aus is getting a thrashing soon and that's a fact. Flat highways aren't going to cause any troubles for our team.

 

[moghul]

Stadium jam packed then, no more now.

 

[Barragan]

Hard to believe, that the great Fazal is bowling with the keeper and fielders up so close.

No joke, but I think the keeper stands further back for Imran Khan jnr (the slowing bowling one).

I certainly hope, that he is maybe at the end of his career or the pitch was such, that it required more accuracy.

 

[Saj]

Excellent and very informative read.

 

[Major]

good nostalgic read

 

[Pantani]

I don't think the keeper and fielders are close as all that... if the distance between the stumps is 22 yards then I would guess the keeper is standing about 16, 17 yards from the stumps. I don't know if that's particularly near or far, but certainly it's not quite the same as standing up to the stumps for Ravi Bopara or Jonathan Trott's part-time medium pacers.

Also another thing worth considering, the pitch might not have offered much carry, so catching fielders would have had to stand closer in order to be able to hang on to edges.

 

[Tusker]

Sure, but people like Benaud watched cricket from the 1930's to the 2010's.

How is he blameless ? He is the source of most half truths gone haywire and converted into fairy tales in which cricketers have magical powers.

Evidence : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4saUbc_yPE

That is footage from this match http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/62851.html when Harvey made 167.

Please explain to me in your own words why the quality of cricket is so high. It should have Statham , Laker and Co bowling but I could only watch for a minute or two before I cringed and moved on to my fav Cricket clips from this era. What is so great here? I just don't get it.

 

[leg-side-flick]

How did it feel to actually speak with your hero....

Mine wasn't great, I imagined him to be superman or something like that...but my encounter just made me realise that he was just very very good in that game n that's it !!!!

 

[Pantani]

How is he blameless ? He is the source of most half truths gone haywire and converted into fairy tales in which cricketers have magical powers.

Evidence : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4saUbc_yPE

That is footage from this match http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/62851.html when Harvey made 167.

Please explain to me in your own words why the quality of cricket is so high. It should have Statham , Laker and Co bowling but I could only watch for a minute or two before I cringed and moved on to my fav Cricket clips from this era. What is so great here? I just don't get it.

I also don't see how anyone has grounds to say an average of 48 in the amateur era is equivalent to 68 in the modern and professional era. Although pitches have flattened and helmets have been introduced and boundaries have been brought in, fielding standards have improved out of sight. The ground fielding ability and athleticism of today's cricketers saves the same 20 runs that have been given away by easier conditions for batting. Also bowlers are faster.

Perhaps one might argue that the very quickest bowlers of the past would have been as quick or even quicker than today's leading fast bowlers, but as a whole, bowlers have gotten faster. Thirty odd years ago medium pacers like Madan Lal and Roger Binny were successful test match bowlers, specialist bowlers. Today they would be flogged, they wouldn't even be fast enough to be specialist bowlers at FC level let alone test level.

So, after all factors are taken into account, maybe you could say averaging 48 in the '50s is equivalent to averaging 50.50 today. I'm willing to concede 2.5 runs. Anything more than that is a gross overstatement, because if you inflate batting averages by 20 you also have to deflate bowling averages significantly; and somebody who averages around 25 today like Steyn would have averaged about 10 in the 1950s on those uncovered wickets with no helmets and small bats and long boundaries - which of course is a plainly ridiculous thing to suggest.

 

[Tusker]

I also don't see how anyone has grounds to say an average of 48 in the amateur era is equivalent to 68 in the modern and professional era. Although pitches have flattened and helmets have been introduced and boundaries have been brought in, fielding standards have improved out of sight. The ground fielding ability and athleticism of today's cricketers saves the same 20 runs that have been given away by easier conditions for batting. Also bowlers are faster.

Perhaps one might argue that the very quickest bowlers of the past would have been as quick or even quicker than today's leading fast bowlers, but as a whole, bowlers have gotten faster. Thirty odd years ago medium pacers like Madan Lal and Roger Binny were successful test match bowlers, specialist bowlers. Today they would be flogged, they wouldn't even be fast enough to be specialist bowlers at FC level let alone test level.

So, after all factors are taken into account, maybe you could say averaging 48 in the '50s is equivalent to averaging 50.50 today. I'm willing to concede 2.5 runs. Anything more than that is a gross overstatement, because if you inflate batting averages by 20 you also have to deflate bowling averages significantly; and somebody who averages around 25 today like Steyn would have averaged about 10 in the 1950s on those uncovered wickets with no helmets and small bats and long boundaries - which of course is a plainly ridiculous thing to suggest.

Exactly ... for example ... at 1.29 we have Statham bowling https://youtu.be/s4saUbc_yPE?t=1m29s he took 7 wkts in that inngs. My question is how does one with that sort of action and speed run thru a side ? The only logical explanation is that the batting was ordinary (or that the pitch was minefield which it doesnt appear to be ).

 

[Slog]

Exactly ... for example ... at 1.29 we have Statham bowling https://youtu.be/s4saUbc_yPE?t=1m29s he took 7 wkts in that inngs. My question is how does one with that sort of action and speed run thru a side ? The only logical explanation is that the batting was ordinary (or that the pitch was minefield which it doesnt appear to be ).

Don't make the mistake of judging previous players and their cricketing ability by the standards of today. What constitutes the standard and style of today is what we are used to and have grown up seeing but it isn't what is necessarily better.

50 years from now people will be questioning the flatness of pitches and asking how good could the opposition bowlers be if a 5 foot 4 small Indian man could have made so many runs and centuries. The only conclusion they'll come up with is that the pitches were very easy and the bowling was poor since it is possible that the style of bowling will have evolved a lot by then. Also it is possible that what is considered great bowling today may not be what would be considered top class int he future. This will happen and I hope that there is someone to correct these people and tell them what context means and how you have to take into account how the sport has evolved and how it was played.

In every sport, the game and how it's played evolves a lot over any given long term time horizon. In cricket especially it evolves a lot and almost looks like a different sport after every 30-40 year period because this sport has so many damn rule changes and addition of so much new technology and tactics. Ofcourse the ever changing fitness regimes also play a part.

So what today is considered the epitome of cricketing endeavour may likely be considered on the amateurish side by some kid in 2070 who is used to hologram videos and is watching this batsman on an old 2d cricket video uploaded by some retro YouTube channel called 'robelinda2'

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Lol at that Fazal picture, supposedly better than Shoaib according to some of our pundits here.

 

[Tusker]

Don't make the mistake of judging previous players and their cricketing ability by the standards of today. What constitutes the standard and style of today is what we are used to and have grown up seeing but it isn't what is necessarily better

Well I dont. But the reality is that opposite is true. There are sooo many people who are adamant that standard of play was exceptionally high back in the day which begs fact checking and here we are ... So can you explain why the standard of cricket is higher than any modern ERA cricket from that clip ?

So what today is considered the epitome of cricketing endeavour may likely be considered on the amateurish side by some kid in 2070 who is used to hologram videos and is watching this batsman on an old 2d cricket video uploaded by some retro YouTube channel called 'robelinda2'

And amateur it should be considered IF the difference in standard of play is just as big as it is today when compared to 50+ yrs ago. Anyone pretending otherwise is basically in denial mode.

 

[shah_1]

How is he blameless ? He is the source of most half truths gone haywire and converted into fairy tales in which cricketers have magical powers.

Evidence : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4saUbc_yPE

That is footage from this match http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/62851.html when Harvey made 167.

Please explain to me in your own words why the quality of cricket is so high. It should have Statham , Laker and Co bowling but I could only watch for a minute or two before I cringed and moved on to my fav Cricket clips from this era. What is so great here? I just don't get it.

The fat & bald left arm spinner at the end was throwing the ball like a pitcher. No rules and regulation, wonder how many chuckers were there in that era

 

[Tusker]

The fat & bald left arm spinner at the end was throwing the ball like a pitcher. No rules and regulation, wonder how many chuckers were there in that era

His name is Tony Lock http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/16331.html

 

[urnotserious]

Sure, but people like Benaud watched cricket from the 1930's to the 2010's.

Its been proven over and over again in police cases that human memory of events is punctuated with biases and stained with inaccuracies.

So I wouldn't trust it too much.

Today's athletes>>>athletes of the past.

 

[MMHS]

Some of you will have noted my excitement today when I met the 88 year old Australian legend Neil Harvey at the hotel next to the Adelaide Oval.

To be fair to the poor man, he was only coming out of the lift when I saw him and - in contrast to my behaviour around any other former cricketer - I approached him and told him that I had been brought up on stories of him at my father's knee. He smiled.

To Australians, and to the English too, Neil Harvey is viewed like Sachin Tendulkar, the boy genius who never grew up. He was the baby of Bradman's 1948 Invincibles, and so he played with long-dead legends like Bradman, Compton, Miller and Lindwall. He in recent years has been an outspoken but generally correct analyst of the modern game. He is a national treasure. And he hit 21 Test centuries in 79 Tests at an average of 48, which is like 68 now.

My English club is Lancashire, and our home grown legend of the mid-eighties to mid-nineties was Neil Fairbrother. Neil Harvey Fairbrother, to be precise.

That's how much we English love and respect Neil Harvey, as [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION] and [MENTION=732]Gilly[/MENTION] must know.

But I think this forum is the best place to expand on this, and its peculiarly Pakistani genesis.

My father was born "British Indian" but lived in Dacca until he "returned" to England in the 1960's. ( [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] if you knew who his mother was, you'd be shocked. But I'm sworn to secrecy).

Anyway, in 1959-60, my Dad and his "West Pakistani" best friend attended the First Test in Dacca between Pakistan and Australia.

It was played in treacherous conditions on a matting wicket. For Pakistan, Hanif Mohammad opened the batting with Ijaz Butt and Fazal Mahmood led the bowling. Richie Benaud led the Aussies, who included the original Wasim Akram in the form of Alan Davidson, not to mention the original Lillee in Ray Lindwall.

Pakistan scored 200, then Australia replied with 225 including a masterly 96 by Harvey. Pakistan replied with 134, setting Australia 112 to win, which they reached with 8 wickets in hand, Harvey adding another 30 to his tally.

Harvey's 96 was probably the greatest innings ever played in Pakistan. The wicket was treacherous, and he was batting against the-then greatest left-arm paceman of all time, the spinner with the most wickets of all time, and the most feared fast bowler in the world.

And he suffered from a high fever, diarrhoea and vomiting.

When the time difference allowed, I tonight rang my father in England to tell him who I'd just met. He couldn't believe that Neil Harvey was still alive, let alone fit enough to go to the cricket.

He then asked me if I'd apologised for him. I replied "No, what for?"

And then he told me. My dad and his Pakistani friend had bounded up to the sick and exhausted Neil Harvey when he was 80 not out at the end of Day 2.

And he was so frail and exhausted that they knocked him over when they patted him on the back!

If I see him again I will pass on the apology.

He's the non-striker in this picture from that day, Day 2, 14 November 1959. And the picture makes me doubt whether Fazal Mahmood was any quicker than Asif or Philander. Looks like he bowled a lot of off-cutters though!

View attachment 70749

I mentioned that Test of Hervey in a Thread (Best ever spin player) - one of my relative watched that Test & we heard of Veil even in 2000s till his death. Probably the best ever white man against spin in modern (after WW2) era, or top 3 with Richards (Barry) & KP.

Have you ever been in Dacca? There were many Anglo family in Southern part of Dhaka City, living as recent as 1980s - Wari, Rankin Street area.

 

[MMHS]

^^ Fazal was quick, extremely quick - may be close to 150s, if we consider Tyson to be 170KM & Truman 160KM

Though, personally I think, he was extremely accurate, skilled metronome, who was impossible to score off on mat, particularly coir mat. Not sure about his speed in opening spell, but some days he bowled 35-38 overs in a 6 hours day - unless he was a cyborg, I don't think he was faster than Ganguly in his 3rd spell on-wards - but there is a theory called relativity - which is the mother of all history, fantasy. One of our fast bowlers in 90s was called "wind" & at club level, many thought that he was as fast as anyone, until the early days Speed metre clocked him 115KM ........... My distant grandfather used to work for British Indian Railway & played club football in Calcutta - till his death, he tried to convince us that Gestu Paul & Chuni Gowshami were defenders, easily could have stopped Pele, Maradona ......... If Frank Tyson can be Typhoon, Fazal definitely can be faster than Vernon, even in his 7th spell of the day.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

I mentioned that Test of Hervey in a Thread (Best ever spin player) - one of my relative watched that Test & we heard of Veil even in 2000s till his death. Probably the best ever white man against spin in modern (after WW2) era, or top 3 with Richards (Barry) & KP.

Have you ever been in Dacca? There were many Anglo family in Southern part of Dhaka City, living as recent as 1980s - Wari, Rankin Street area.

This caught my eye.

Please, tell me more.

 

[Junaids]

I mentioned that Test of Hervey in a Thread (Best ever spin player) - one of my relative watched that Test & we heard of Veil even in 2000s till his death. Probably the best ever white man against spin in modern (after WW2) era, or top 3 with Richards (Barry) & KP.

Have you ever been in Dacca? There were many Anglo family in Southern part of Dhaka City, living as recent as 1980s - Wari, Rankin Street area.

The reference to Tony Lock above reminded me of a certain Pakistani. Mediocre bowler who reached greatness by chucking, cleaned up his action but became mediocre again, then occasionally resorted to the dirty action.

In terms of the Fazal comments, I'd guess that he bowled 120K in this match while Lindwall bowled 135K. But Fazal was the King of Matting because of what he could do with the ball.

I visited Dhaka once in 1988, and accidentally met General Ershad when I took the wrong turn on the way back from the toilet at the Dacca Club, and being relatively fair-skinned and unable to speak Bengali the security people ushered me straight up to him!

All my family left in the early 1960's, apart from the afore-mentioned grandmother, which is a good thing because in 1971 you know who sent a death squad to get my dad. Having a western name was no protection - remember Wallis Mathias played for Pakistan in the Test in this thread.

My family lived in a Hindu area, Kalta Bazar, and my Dad attended St Gregory's High School in Dacca and I believe he knew some of the teachers who were kidnapped and murdered by the same people who came for him in 1971. I don't want to politicise this thread by identifying them.

 

[shaz619]

Some of you will have noted my excitement today when I met the 88 year old Australian legend Neil Harvey at the hotel next to the Adelaide Oval.

To be fair to the poor man, he was only coming out of the lift when I saw him and - in contrast to my behaviour around any other former cricketer - I approached him and told him that I had been brought up on stories of him at my father's knee. He smiled.

To Australians, and to the English too, Neil Harvey is viewed like Sachin Tendulkar, the boy genius who never grew up. He was the baby of Bradman's 1948 Invincibles, and so he played with long-dead legends like Bradman, Compton, Miller and Lindwall. He in recent years has been an outspoken but generally correct analyst of the modern game. He is a national treasure. And he hit 21 Test centuries in 79 Tests at an average of 48, which is like 68 now.

My English club is Lancashire, and our home grown legend of the mid-eighties to mid-nineties was Neil Fairbrother. Neil Harvey Fairbrother, to be precise.

That's how much we English love and respect Neil Harvey, as [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION] and [MENTION=732]Gilly[/MENTION] must know.

But I think this forum is the best place to expand on this, and its peculiarly Pakistani genesis.

My father was born "British Indian" but lived in Dacca until he "returned" to England in the 1960's. ( [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] if you knew who his mother was, you'd be shocked. But I'm sworn to secrecy).

Anyway, in 1959-60, my Dad and his "West Pakistani" best friend attended the First Test in Dacca between Pakistan and Australia.

It was played in treacherous conditions on a matting wicket. For Pakistan, Hanif Mohammad opened the batting with Ijaz Butt and Fazal Mahmood led the bowling. Richie Benaud led the Aussies, who included the original Wasim Akram in the form of Alan Davidson, not to mention the original Lillee in Ray Lindwall.

Pakistan scored 200, then Australia replied with 225 including a masterly 96 by Harvey. Pakistan replied with 134, setting Australia 112 to win, which they reached with 8 wickets in hand, Harvey adding another 30 to his tally.

Harvey's 96 was probably the greatest innings ever played in Pakistan. The wicket was treacherous, and he was batting against the-then greatest left-arm paceman of all time, the spinner with the most wickets of all time, and the most feared fast bowler in the world.

And he suffered from a high fever, diarrhoea and vomiting.

When the time difference allowed, I tonight rang my father in England to tell him who I'd just met. He couldn't believe that Neil Harvey was still alive, let alone fit enough to go to the cricket.

He then asked me if I'd apologised for him. I replied "No, what for?"

And then he told me. My dad and his Pakistani friend had bounded up to the sick and exhausted Neil Harvey when he was 80 not out at the end of Day 2.

And he was so frail and exhausted that they knocked him over when they patted him on the back!

If I see him again I will pass on the apology.

He's the non-striker in this picture from that day, Day 2, 14 November 1959. And the picture makes me doubt whether Fazal Mahmood was any quicker than Asif or Philander. Looks like he bowled a lot of off-cutters though!

View attachment 70749

Awesome insight, I nominate this Junaids for POTW. Junaids is a polarizing figure on this forum but no one can doubt these gems when he takes us all for a walk down memory lane. I've never heard of Neil Harvey before this but his record is incredible! A shame chaps like Jack Hobbs received all the notoriety, anyhow had batting techniques evolved in Harvey's time or were they all glorified tailenders barring the Don?

 

[gibsyhesperis]

What a wonderful post -- an insight into the history of the greatest game.

Sadly not appreciated by the "kiddies", for whom cricket only started with T20, for whom Afridi is an all time great and can't except that any player who played before 2000 ever achieved anything.

Youth is indeed wasted on the young.....

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION], mate, you should definitely get a POTW for this.

Love your posts. But, Aus is getting a thrashing soon and that's a fact. Flat highways aren't going to cause any troubles for our team.

Thanks for the kind words.

A lot depends upon the weather in Cairns for the warm-up match. Sami Aslam and Azhar Ali need to get back their confidence.

Pakistan shouldn't panic. Amir, Wahab and Yasir are three quarters of a good attack for Aussie conditions.

 

[Junaids]

I hope for Pakistani and Bengali readers that this thread is also a window into your countries' early modern history.

A time when Dhaka was the third city of Pakistan, when Test grounds were full, wickets were covered in matting and you needed a mastery of English even to operate the scoreboard!

My dad as a native English-speaking East Pakistan resident spoke English, Bengali, Hindi and Urdu. His two best friends were a West Pakistani and a Bengali Hindu.

All in the span of one lifetime, but it seems like a different world.

 

[Speedster1]

Insightful, informative read. POTW.

 

[Tusker]

I hope for Pakistani and Bengali readers that this thread is also a window into your countries' early modern history.

A time when Dhaka was the third city of Pakistan, when Test grounds were full, wickets were covered in matting and you needed a mastery of English even to operate the scoreboard!

My dad as a native English-speaking East Pakistan resident spoke English, Bengali, Hindi and Urdu. His two best friends were a West Pakistani and a Bengali Hindu.

All in the span of one lifetime, but it seems like a different world.

Great story and wonderful narration ... just wish the cricket part of it was realistic. Thanks for sharing.

 

[street cricketer]

Top work [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]!

 

[MMHS]

This caught my eye.

Please, tell me more.

There were many such streets in old town - named after Brits of colonial days. I just named one randomly - Rankin, Hare, Northbrook hall, Carjon hall, Distillery road, English road, Johnson road, Mitford, Armenian church road ... most of the roads/land marks are renamed after independence (For us 2 independence).

 

[Junaids]

Exactly ... for example ... at 1.29 we have Statham bowling https://youtu.be/s4saUbc_yPE?t=1m29s he took 7 wkts in that inngs. My question is how does one with that sort of action and speed run thru a side ? The only logical explanation is that the batting was ordinary (or that the pitch was minefield which it doesnt appear to be ).

When were Madan Lal and Roger Binny successful Test bowlers?

You might recall that the Lancashire quick Peter Lever almost killed Ewen Chatfield with a bouncer in 1975.

Lever bowled around 135K, we probably all agree on that. Not 140 or 145 or faster.

I asked him once what Brian Statham was like, as most of us know him as England's second best ever.

He told me that he couldn't swing it at all, but was supremely accurate and halfway in pace between the likes of Lever (or Jimmy Anderson) and Fred Trueman.

I interpreted that as

Jimmy 135
Statham 140
Trueman 145

You would probably say he meant

Jimmy 135
Statham 125
Trueman 115!!!!!!!

 

[Tusker]

When were Madan Lal and Roger Binny successful Test bowlers?

You might recall that the Lancashire quick Peter Lever almost killed Ewen Chatfield with a bouncer in 1975.

Lever bowled around 135K, we probably all agree on that. Not 140 or 145 or faster.

I asked him once what Brian Statham was like, as most of us know him as England's second best ever.

He told me that he couldn't swing it at all, but was supremely accurate and halfway in pace between the likes of Lever (or Jimmy Anderson) and Fred Trueman.

I interpreted that as

Jimmy 135
Statham 140
Trueman 145

You would probably say he meant

Jimmy 135
Statham 125
Trueman 115!!!!!!!

I never ever claimed Binny and Madanlal were successful crickters. NEVER ! However .... do you REALLY believe that Statham is bowling 140Ks in that clip ? Please tell me its a NO !!

 

[samplepiece]

The keeper isnt standing more than 10 yards from the stump in the Fazal pic above and considering that the quality of gloves were inferior to what they are now, I would be surprised if he was bowling any quicker than 120 kmph. The position of the leg slip is what you would expect for a spinner and he would have no chance of reacting if he was standing there for any 120 kmph bowler.

 

[Abdullah719]

A fascinating read, OP.

 

[MMHS]

When were Madan Lal and Roger Binny successful Test bowlers?

You might recall that the Lancashire quick Peter Lever almost killed Ewen Chatfield with a bouncer in 1975.

Lever bowled around 135K, we probably all agree on that. Not 140 or 145 or faster.

I asked him once what Brian Statham was like, as most of us know him as England's second best ever.

He told me that he couldn't swing it at all, but was supremely accurate and halfway in pace between the likes of Lever (or Jimmy Anderson) and Fred Trueman.

I interpreted that as

Jimmy 135
Statham 140
Trueman 145

You would probably say he meant

Jimmy 135
Statham 125
Trueman 115!!!!!!!

But boss, you are claiming average of 48 equivalent to 68 - my question is, by that logic (difficult batting era); Fred Truman's average of <22 is like 32 now - that's Wahab Riaz staff!!!!!


Why always compare stats with different era? Just keep it simple - Harvey was outstanding player of his time & one of the best ever No. 3; probably played one of the best 2/3 innings in 4th innings chase.

 

[Veteran]

Read this post after seeing that it had been picked as joint POW. The test in question is one I attended. It is so long ago that it would be hard for me to contribute to the debate about the cricketers then and now. Just want to add a couple of things. Harvey was on 96 when Fazal took the second new ball. He held it up and for all to see and came running in and bowled Harvey first ball. It was a great moment. Another highlight was Duncan Sharpe's debut innings for Pakistan. He scored 56 I believe and looked very solid. Read all the replies and comments with interest. I too attended St. Gregory's and yes there were indeed lots of streets with Colonial names. Two I lived on were Bailey Road and Minto Road.

 

[Junaids]

Read this post after seeing that it had been picked as joint POW. The test in question is one I attended. It is so long ago that it would be hard for me to contribute to the debate about the cricketers then and now. Just want to add a couple of things. Harvey was on 96 when Fazal took the second new ball. He held it up and for all to see and came running in and bowled Harvey first ball. It was a great moment. Another highlight was Duncan Sharpe's debut innings for Pakistan. He scored 56 I believe and looked very solid. Read all the replies and comments with interest. I too attended St. Gregory's and yes there were indeed lots of streets with Colonial names. Two I lived on were Bailey Road and Minto Road.

Are you by any chance a resident of Shipley in Yorkshire?

 

[Tusker]

But boss, you are claiming average of 48 equivalent to 68 - my question is, by that logic (difficult batting era); Fred Truman's average of <22 is like 32 now - that's Wahab Riaz staff!!!!!

Its actually the other way around ... since [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] rates batsman from that ERA sky high ... Truemans avg is equivalent to todays 15 (which in Turn makes Harvey's avg higher) lol ... there is no end to this Nostalgia trip.

I realize that Iam one of the biggest critic of older ERA's but I remain in hope that someone will some day explain the rude disconnect between words and naked evidence as can be seen plainly in any random video footage from past ERAs that depict a completely opposite picture of Cricket to what the "Experts" keep gloating about.

 

[Junaids]

Its actually the other way around ... since [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] rates batsman from that ERA sky high ... Truemans avg is equivalent to todays 15 (which in Turn makes Harvey's avg higher) lol ... there is no end to this Nostalgia trip.

I realize that Iam one of the biggest critic of older ERA's but I remain in hope that someone will some day explain the rude disconnect between words and naked evidence as can be seen plainly in any random video footage from past ERAs that depict a completely opposite picture of Cricket to what the "Experts" keep gloating about.

That is a really annoyingly good point. Touché!

My thoughts on the past - quite heavily influenced by you - are currently as follows:

1. The outstanding players of any generation would presumably have been outstanding in any generation.

2. The national teams seemed to be a mixture of outstanding and average players. But look at Australia and Pakistan currently! Isn't that the case now?

3. Some supposed ATG players - notably Jack Hobbs - had extraordinary deficits in their techniques. People might say the same thing when they look at Steve Smith video clips in future generations.

In the match in question, I think that several players have survived the test of time - Hanif Mohammad, Fazal Mahmood, Neil Harvey, Norm O'Neill, Richie Benaud, Ken Mackay and Ray Lindwall.

That's seven out of twenty two. I'm less certain of Saeed Ahmed and Nasim-up-Ghani though.

And apart from the novelty of Dacca being the second city of Pakistan - ahead of Lahore or Islamabad - the other striking feature is that Pakistan's Number 4 and 5 batsmen were Wallis Mathias and Duncan Sharpe (who is now alive and well in Adelaide).

 

[Tusker]

That is a really annoyingly good point. Touché!

Thanks I will take that as a compliment

My thoughts on the past - quite heavily influenced by you - are currently as follows:

1. The outstanding players of any generation would presumably have been outstanding in any generation.

Glad I was able to influence you with something lol ... but I must respectfully disagree with this point. Why ? Because there is no empirical or tangible hard evidence to prove or disprove this point. Its one of those feel-good-lets-do-a-group-hug kinda stuff. Not meant to be taken seriously. As it stands Tendulkar is the only player that lasted so long that he had the pleasure of dealing with 3 generations of bowlers and these accounted for 90% of worlds ATG bowlers if not more.

2. The national teams seemed to be a mixture of outstanding and average players. But look at Australia and Pakistan currently! Isn't that the case now?

Not sure what this proves.

3. Some supposed ATG players - notably Jack Hobbs - had extraordinary deficits in their techniques. People might say the same thing when they look at Steve Smith video clips in future generations.

The key here is the bowling speeds and quality. None of that is in doubt when it comes to Steve Smith. Unless ofcourse in 80 - 100 yrs time the bowling quality will improve to such an extent that it will make current bowling styles/speeds extinct.

In the match in question, I think that several players have survived the test of time - Hanif Mohammad, Fazal Mahmood, Neil Harvey, Norm O'Neill, Richie Benaud, Ken Mackay and Ray Lindwall.

That's seven out of twenty two. I'm less certain of Saeed Ahmed and Nasim-up-Ghani though.

Again these ratings are a product of fairy tales gone out of control. The footage likes to maintain a stoic difference.

And apart from the novelty of Dacca being the second city of Pakistan - ahead of Lahore or Islamabad - the other striking feature is that Pakistan's Number 4 and 5 batsmen were Wallis Mathias and Duncan Sharpe (who is now alive and well in Adelaide).

I love these anecdotes and I greatly appreciate your cricket know-how when it comes to such factoids.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Read this post after seeing that it had been picked as joint POW. The test in question is one I attended. It is so long ago that it would be hard for me to contribute to the debate about the cricketers then and now. Just want to add a couple of things. Harvey was on 96 when Fazal took the second new ball. He held it up and for all to see and came running in and bowled Harvey first ball. It was a great moment. Another highlight was Duncan Sharpe's debut innings for Pakistan. He scored 56 I believe and looked very solid. Read all the replies and comments with interest. I too attended St. Gregory's and yes there were indeed lots of streets with Colonial names. Two I lived on were Bailey Road and Minto Road.

You attended that match 57 years ago ? Wow.

Great to know PP members and them sharing things from history books.

 

[Veteran]

Are you by any chance a resident of Shipley in Yorkshire?

Hi Junaids. No I live in Toronto. Left Dhaka in 1969.

 

[Junaids]

Hi Junaids. No I live in Toronto. Left Dhaka in 1969.

Thank goodness for that. I that I was about to be in big trouble!

Do you have any memories about how quick Fazal Mahmood was or wasn't?

I have assumed that he was around Philander's pace, but the location of the slip cordon suggests maybe not.

 

[Veteran]

Thank goodness for that. I that I was about to be in big trouble!

Do you have any memories about how quick Fazal Mahmood was or wasn't?

I have assumed that he was around Philander's pace, but the location of the slip cordon suggests maybe not.

Fazal was not all that fast but generated speed off the matting wicket. He was particularly renowned for bowling leg cutters. This style of bowling was effective on matting wickets. I remember some bowlers of that time who were exponents of leg and off cutters among them Ismail Gul and a chap called Mesbah. Both played cricket in Pakistan and in what was then East Pakistan. Genuine fast bowlers seem to have been less effective on matting. In the match to which you refer the most successful bowlers were Fazal and Ken Mckay. I still recall Mckay with a very unhurried approach to the wicket and rather gentle pace. I think he got six wickets in the second innings.

 

[Abdullah719]

And apart from the novelty of Dacca being the second city of Pakistan - ahead of Lahore or Islamabad - the other striking feature is that Pakistan's Number 4 and 5 batsmen were Wallis Mathias and Duncan Sharpe (who is now alive and well in Adelaide).

Turns 80 today!

 

[The Googly]

To Original Poster : Junaids.

Excellent, nostagic article. Top Read!

 

[Nil Dhumrojal]

I hope for Pakistani and Bengali readers that this thread is also a window into your countries' early modern history.

A time when Dhaka was the third city of Pakistan, when Test grounds were full, wickets were covered in matting and you needed a mastery of English even to operate the scoreboard!

My dad as a native English-speaking East Pakistan resident spoke English, Bengali, Hindi and Urdu. His two best friends were a West Pakistani and a Bengali Hindu.

All in the span of one lifetime, but it seems like a different world.

Yup...this type of threads make all of us nostalgic.

 

[Nil Dhumrojal]

Three cheers for junaids awesome post.

 

[troodon]

How is he blameless ? He is the source of most half truths gone haywire and converted into fairy tales in which cricketers have magical powers.

Evidence : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4saUbc_yPE

That is footage from this match http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/62851.html when Harvey made 167.

Please explain to me in your own words why the quality of cricket is so high. It should have Statham , Laker and Co bowling but I could only watch for a minute or two before I cringed and moved on to my fav Cricket clips from this era. What is so great here? I just don't get it.

Terrible bowlers there in that clip. The fastest seem to be statham who seem to be touching high 120's.

These bowlers would be butchered by modern day batsmen if they played in this era.

Past is always glorified. I say modern day batmen are much superior than the past ones. Especially the ones who played in 50's, 60's and 70's.
Modern day batsmen are better physically, better athletes and lot more agile than the past ones. Skills are also superior.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

I recall Waqar Younis saying something along these lines "These days you can do wonders in gym and optimize your muscles..." And he played his cricket in 90s mainly.

You can say modern people are athletic but if given same conditions, past people would be equally athletic.

Let's see 100m record evolution, as humanity has advanced, less sickness, better diets and hence the clear physical superiority but that doesn't make someone like Milka 'The flying Singh' Singh irrelevant or weak. Past athletes did the best with resources they had...

Someone like Wilt Chamberlain would suffer against a modern 'mediocre' center like Javale McGee or even Pau Gasol. But Wilt dominated(or should I say 'butchered' ) centers of his time and will always be the GOAT center for me (Even better than Shaq).

That said, all that matters is how better one is in comparison to their colleagues who played the great game in same time... on

Kudos to OP. Enjoyed reading.
Thanks.

 

[Stewie]

We may be onto something here regarding standards. I never paid attention. It always thought that whenever I saw videos of players from the 60s or earlier they did not look all that awe inspiring.

I have to admit though that if you watch the windies of the 70s and 80s, they were truly exceptional.

I believe cricket has seen eras of extreme highs and then some lows in terms of talent. I am going to suggest sometimes one or two exceptional international players can spark a renaissance of sorts by motivating fellow team mates and opposition to match their performance and it has a cascading effect on international cricket standards. I believe the Windies of the 70s and 80s did just that.

And when there is no exceptional talent around, the game peters towards mediocrity. I think during bygone eras where the sport was not ultra competitive may have caused tons of mediocre players by today's standards to become legends.

In this day and age however, everything is quantified, catalogued and it sticks. Mediocrity has no chance. In the early 2000s, the aussies were so far ahead of others it was ridiculous and the sport seemed almost dead due to their overwhelming dominance. It was a rare drop in competition. But lately, pushovers of the past have improved a lot, (NZ, SL, BD), India is actually producing decent fast bowlers and West Indies have again carved a niche for themselves in T 20.

Sports history is a funny subject.

 

[Tusker]

Terrible bowlers there in that clip. The fastest seem to be statham who seem to be touching high 120's.

These bowlers would be butchered by modern day batsmen if they played in this era.

Past is always glorified. I say modern day batmen are much superior than the past ones. Especially the ones who played in 50's, 60's and 70's.
Modern day batsmen are better physically, better athletes and lot more agile than the past ones. Skills are also superior.

Exactly !! Never understood the fascination for older ERA players that is so prevalent amongst cricket fanatics that they swear by these players.

 

[MenInG]

One of the truly excellent threads we have seen over the years on PP!

 

[shaz619]

One of the best posts ever on PP, arguably the greatest. I miss [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] be it when he goes on one with his rants or the amazing historical insight, terrific poster and very knowledgeable on the game who's so passionate for the purest and ultimate form.

 

[Bewal Express]

Whats happened to our friend

 

[MenInG]

Well Ewan Chatfield - mentioned by the author of this thread has finally retired!

=====

Ewen Chatfield made his debut in international cricket with a Test match against England back in 1975. New Zealand's Ewen Chatfield represented his national team in 43 Tests and 114 One-Day Internationals (ODIs). The medium-pacer, who made his last appearance for New Zealand in 1989, called time on his career at the age of 68 on Saturday. Chatfield in an interview to stuff.co.nz said, "It might seem silly but I have standards, even at 68, and if I can't play to those standards I thought it is time to flag it."

He also suggested a headline to announce his retirement and said, "I would not mind reading the Naenae Express has run out of steam as the heading."

The Dannevirke-born player played his last match for a club named Naenae Old Boys and got out for a first-ball duck.

After the match, he decided to end his career at the same place where he started in February 1968 -- Naenae Park.

Chatfield has picked 123 Test and 140 ODI wickets in his career. He had three five-wicket hauls in the longest format of the game and one in ODIs. He was also awarded an MBE for his services to cricket.

https://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/new-zealand-cricketer-ewen-chatfield-retires-at-68-1983871