Abdul Razzaq vs Hardik Pandya

[Napa]

He is only providing the data which exists as of now. There's no other way to judge!

Also check his statement "Pandya is not even in the same ballpark <b>as far as early signs</b> are concerned."

He can't even acknowledge that the "early signs" have Pandya tremendously out-performing Razzaq. Really a blind hatred of anything Indian.

 

[Proactive_]

So I give you career stats and you come back with stats from one particular series to prove your point. Very convincing indeed...

Even in the particular series specially selected by you, Razzaq's batting average of 37.50, though higher than his lifetime average of 29.70, is lower than Pandya's career average of 40.7.

"Pandya is not even in the same ballpark <b>as far as early signs</b> are concerned." Go away now.

Pandya could've been averaging 100+ and it still wouldn't compare with a 37.5 average in that series. Razzaq was legitimately facing one of the greatest ODI teams of all time.

It's not just this conversation, you're posting this averages nonsense everywhere, see Post 33 for reference. By your astute sense for comparisons, Suresh Raina might have well been the second coming of Lara to you with a Test average of 68 after 4 Tests. I mean how could you dispute that? Early signs. . . . . . . .

 

[Ab Fan]

Looks like Razzak was the greatest or one of the greatest thing happened to Pakistan.

 

[Mamoon]

Pandya is the next Indian captain. Called it before he became the flavor of the month, there is a spark in him that is not seen every day.

He is as talented as Razzaq and because of the superior environment in which he is playing and his dedication based on his fitness, he will have a much better career.

 

[Proactive_]

He is only providing the data which exists as of now. There's no other way to judge!

I've no problem in anybody claiming anything. But when you substantiate your claims using statistics of someone whose played barely 30 internationals (Test+ODI) in comparison to someone who played 300+ then we got a problem, and as I showed, if Razzaq can finish his career at a much lower level as compared to his earlier exploits against some of the greatest players of all time, what's the logic behind claiming that Pandya's statistics until date grant him a sure shot ticket to a status that will have him "leave players like Razzaq far behind". That's blatantly disingenuous for the sake of pushing your agenda.

 

[Napa]

Pandya is the next Indian captain. Called it before he became the flavor of the month, there is a spark in him that is not seen every day.

There is a certain look of total concentration he has when he bowls. He may have it when he bats too, but one can't see it because he is wearing a helmet.

 

[Napa]

Razzaq can finish his career at a much lower level as compared to his earlier exploits against some of the greatest players of all time, what's the logic behind claiming that Pandya's statistics until date grant him a sure shot ticket to a status that will have him "leave players like Razzaq far behind".

Because Razzaq fizzled out later in his career (probably lost his motivation and fitness) therefore we can claim that Pandya will too, from which it follows that "Pandya is not even in the same ballpark as far as <b>early signs</b> are concerned".

So an essential ingredient for the argument that Razzaq is better than (not in the same ballpark) as Pandya is that Razzaq had a terrible later career.

 

[Rightarmfast]

I've no problem in anybody claiming anything. But when you substantiate your claims using statistics of someone whose played barely 30 internationals (Test+ODI) in comparison to someone who played 300+ then we got a problem, and as I showed, if Razzaq can finish his career at a much lower level as compared to his earlier exploits against some of the greatest players of all time, what's the logic behind claiming that Pandya's statistics until date grant him a sure shot ticket to a status that will have him "leave players like Razzaq far behind". That's blatantly disingenuous for the sake of pushing your agenda.

If I am not wrong, I saw you claiming with certainty Kohli was an inferior batsmen to ABD based on similar stats, although Kohli hasnt even reached his peak yet, while ABD is done and dusted.
You see the irony?

Coming back to this post, he is merely answering because there is a thred made, and not created by him. What do you expect someone to do when people vicious like you are out there to abuse Indian players at the drop of a hat? Just listen and not retort? Who said you can't compare?

So let us see, Razzaq's stats in the first 3 test matches -
Against Aus - Runs scored - 11 and 2; against SL ( in Pak) - 9 and 3; against SL ( in Pak ) - 0 and 5!

Bowling - Against Aus - 0
Sl - 2 and 4
Sl - 2 and 0

In ODI's - Batting - He had a highest score of 60, scored at a SR of 60.6!
In ODI Bowling, in his first 26 matches, he had a total of 31 wickets, whereas Pandya has 29!

And I thought @Proactive , you were saying Razzaq was a beast when he started off? He seems to be below Pandya in all aspects!

 

[Proactive_]

Because Razzaq fizzled out later in his career (probably lost his motivation and fitness) therefore we can claim that Pandya will too, from which it follows that "Pandya is not even in the same ballpark as far as <b>early signs</b> are concerned".

So an essential ingredient for the argument that Razzaq is better than (not in the same ballpark) as Pandya is that Razzaq had a terrible later career.

You seem to have misinterpreted my point entirely.

For clarity, this was my first post in this thread:

Another premature thread.

In his early days, I remember Razzaq troubling Tendulkar on multiple occasions in the 2000 Tri Series and getting 5 boundaries off of a McGrath over. Pandya is not even in the same ballpark as far as early signs are concerned. I have a huge amount of respect for Pandya, he was the only guy out of the 11 who stood up for the Tri Color in the CT Final while others were probably busy at counting their IPL money, but no.. this comparison is not warranted at this stage.

The whole point was concerning the "early days" of both Razzaq and it's comparison to Pandya's. How did you manage to take this as a comparison of Pandya's statistics with Razzaq's entire career I'll never know. But indeed, as far as early signs of both Razzaq and Pandya are concerned, Pandya is not even in the same ballpark, as evidenced by some of Razzaq's starting performances.

 

[Rightarmfast]

You seem to have misinterpreted my point entirely.

For clarity, this was my first post in this thread:



The whole point was concerning the "early days" of both Razzaq and it's comparison to Pandya's. How did you manage to take this as a comparison of Pandya's statistics with Razzaq's entire career I'll never know. But indeed, as far as early signs of both Razzaq and Pandya are concerned, Pandya is not even in the same ballpark, as evidenced by some of Razzaq's starting performances.

I have just quoted Razzaq's initial performances.Looks like you havent done your study well!

 

[shaz619]

Lots of interesting revelations in this post.

Firstly, I just can't get the logic behind using consecutive sixes as some sort of benchmark of batsmanship, but alright.

You want to talk potential? Let's have a look at Razzaq's performances in the Carlton and Untied Tri Series played between India, World Champions Australia and Pakistan in 1999-2000.

Batting - 225 Runs at 37.50
Bowling- 14 Wickets @ 20.78

To add a bit of more perspective to these numbers, have a look at the batsmen that he bowled to and bowlers that he faced in this series:

Batsmen: Gilchrist, M. Waugh, Ponting, Bevan, S. Waugh, Martyn, Symonds, Ganguly, Tendulkar, Dravid (Highest run scorer in the 99 WC).

Bowlers: McGrath, Fleming, Lee and Warne.

To use your words - You have to a blind man wearing a blindfold in a dark room to not see that Pandya hasn't even faced a thousandth of the talent and class faced by Razzaq in his early days, to be making a coherent comparison on potential.

As I said, I rate this Pandya dude. I just don't indulge myself in this business of overrating every young kid on the block to another galaxy on the basis of a handful of matches. So your averages mean nothing at this moment and are as hollow as your consecutive sixes argument. Let him play a full season overseas and then we can have a talk.

POTW
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] has become everyone's bunny on this forum lmao his fallacies are easily exposed

 

[Proactive_]

If I am not wrong, I saw you claiming with certainty Kohli was an inferior batsmen to ABD based on similar stats, although Kohli hasnt even reached his peak yet, while ABD is done and dusted.
You see the irony?

Coming back to this post, he is merely answering because there is a thred made, and not created by him. What do you expect someone to do when people vicious like you are out there to abuse Indian players at the drop of a hat? Just listen and not retort? Who said you can't compare?

So let us see, Razzaq's stats in the first 3 test matches -
Against Aus - Runs scored - 11 and 2; against SL ( in Pak) - 9 and 3; against SL ( in Pak ) - 0 and 5!

Bowling - Against Aus - 0
Sl - 2 and 4
Sl - 2 and 0

In ODI's - Batting - He had a highest score of 60, scored at a SR of 60.6!
In ODI Bowling, in his first 26 matches, he had a total of 31 wickets, whereas Pandya has 29!

And I thought @Proactive , you were saying Razzaq was a beast when he started off? He seems to be below Pandya in all aspects!

Kohli's been playing International cricket for 9 years. "Peak" isn't reached as and when you claim it will. It may be very well behind him, only time will tell and as of today, he is nowhere near ABD at batsmanship and he's been an international player for 9 years.

And please don't compare ODI cricket of the 90s with the ODI scene of today. It's blasphemous. You had more great ODI players playing in that single Tri Series that I mentioned than there are in the entire ODI cricket of today.

Nobody has claimed of Razzaq being a great test player so there's no point. If Pandya can manage to have a good Test career then obviously, irrespective of what he does in ODIs, would be regarded as a better all rounder than Razzaq, but again.. it's an if.

 

[bluetiger]

I'll go with Pandya because of his attitude and confidence. He had everything he needs to succeed.

 

[Rightarmfast]

Kohli's been playing International cricket for 9 years. "Peak" isn't reached as and when you claim it will. It may be very well behind him, only time will tell and as of today, he is nowhere near ABD at batsmanship and he's been an international player for 9 years.

And please don't compare ODI cricket of the 90s with the ODI scene of today. It's blasphemous. You had more great ODI players playing in that single Tri Series that I mentioned than there are in the entire ODI cricket of today.

Nobody has claimed of Razzaq being a great test player so there's no point. If Pandya can manage to have a good Test career then obviously, irrespective of what he does in ODIs, would be regarded as a better all rounder than Razzaq, but again.. it's an if.

Hahahahaha! what a fall from all that highground just some time ago lolz! Next time, put some educated post and not some gibberish out of your hatred!

 

[Proactive_]

Hahahahaha! what a fall from all that highground just some time ago lolz! Next time, put some educated post and not some gibberish out of your hatred!

Your excitement is misplaced. Get better material while trying to prove that Pandya has shown more potential than Razzaq initially did and don't just hilariously compare wickets and runs as if there isn't a difference of 20 years in the cricketing scenes faced by the two players, makes all your talk about "knowledge" look pretty hilarious.

 

[Rightarmfast]

Kohli's been playing International cricket for 9 years. "Peak" isn't reached as and when you claim it will. It may be very well behind him, only time will tell and as of today, he is nowhere near ABD at batsmanship and he's been an international player for 9 years.

And please don't compare ODI cricket of the 90s with the ODI scene of today. It's blasphemous. You had more great ODI players playing in that single Tri Series that I mentioned than there are in the entire ODI cricket of today.

Nobody has claimed of Razzaq being a great test player so there's no point. If Pandya can manage to have a good Test career then obviously, irrespective of what he does in ODIs, would be regarded as a better all rounder than Razzaq, but again.. it's an if.

And btw, 90's was the period of Jayasuriya and your own Shahid Afridi.. So just what are you talking about? Clearly shows your lack of knowledge, rather 0% knowledge... @Proactive

 

[Proactive_]

And btw, 90's was the period of Jayasuriya and your own Shahid Afridi.. So just what are you talking about? Clearly shows your lack of knowledge, rather 0% knowledge... @Proactive

I wouldn't even try to comprehend what this post even means lol. You're seriously in the "throw mud on the wall" phase in this argument pal. Get some rest, you sound agitated.

 

[Mobashir]

Razaaq was good fast bowler In his early years.
Pandya is not even a good bowler. He bowls because he Has to and even then sometimes Jadhav is prefered.

Batting wise he Has started quite well In ODI's but can't see him lasting long. He is mediocre against good bowlers.

 

[Napa]

You seem to have misinterpreted my point entirely.
The whole point was <b>concerning the "early days" of both Razzaq and it's comparison to Pandya's</b>... But indeed, as far as early signs of both Razzaq and Pandya are concerned, Pandya is not even in the same ballpark, as evidenced by some of Razzaq's starting performances.

Okay if you insist, let's do "<b>concerning the "early days" of both Razzaq and it's comparison to Pandya's</b>"

Batting:
Razzaq 5.00 (3 Tests), 20.42 (26 ODIs)
Pandya 59.33 (3 Tests) 40.75 (26 ODIs)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...s=1;template=results;type=batting;view=series
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Bowling:
Razzaq 35.88 (3 Tests), 27.48 (26 ODIs)
Pandya 23.75 (3 Tests), 34.03 (26 ODIs)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...s=1;template=results;type=bowling;view=series
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=bowling;view=series

So we have Pandya comprehensively beating Razzaq in 3 of the 4 metrics (an avg of 5 vs. an avg of 59 is laughable). Even in ODIs, where 26 is a reasonable sized sample we have Pandya with a batting average <b>twice</b> that of Razzaq's.

You have been the biggest waste of time for me this morning.
[MENTION=95477]Rightarmfast[/MENTION], pretty pointless arguing with Proactive, I am done here.

 

[Proactive_]

Okay if you insist, let's do "<b>concerning the "early days" of both Razzaq and it's comparison to Pandya's</b>"

Batting:
Razzaq 5.00 (3 Tests), 20.42 (26 ODIs)
Pandya 59.33 (3 Tests) 40.75 (26 ODIs)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...s=1;template=results;type=batting;view=series
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Bowling:
Razzaq 35.88 (3 Tests), 27.48 (26 ODIs)
Pandya 23.75 (3 Tests), 34.03 (26 ODIs)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...s=1;template=results;type=bowling;view=series
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=bowling;view=series

So we have Pandya comprehensively beating Razzaq in 3 of the 4 metrics (an avg of 5 vs. an avg of 59 is laughable). Even in ODIs, where 26 is a reasonable sized sample we have Pandya with a batting average <b>twice</b> that of Razzaq's.

You have been the biggest waste of time for me this morning.
[MENTION=95477]Rightarmfast[/MENTION], pretty pointless arguing with Proactive, I am done here.

How many times will you be done? You're the quintessential stats nerd if I ever saw one. Context means nothing to you,absolute zilch. I gave you Razzaq's performances against the likes of Gilchrist, M. Waugh, Ponting, Bevan, S. Waugh, Martyn, Symonds, Ganguly, Tendulkar, Dravid at bowling and McGrath, Fleming, Lee and Warne.

Now, tell me the respective "great" players that Pandya has played and done well against in his career thus far. Has he even faced the likes of Starc, Hazlewood, Rabada, Morkel in ODIs or the likes of Anderson, Broad in Tests?

Has he bowled to the likes of Williamson, Root, Amla, Smith, ABD, Cook in Tests? You're just throwing numbers for the sake of it. Pandya's numbers at this moment are as relevant as Suresh Raina's Test average of 68 after 4 Tests.

Razzaq did perform well against some of the greatest players of not just that time but of all time in his early days. It's on record. Pandya hasn't. When we have a decent sample of him facing better competition, then we can have a proper coherent argument, until then.. you can keep getting done with me only to come up with some more irrelevant statistics again and again.

 

[wasimjunior]

If I am not wrong, I saw you claiming with certainty Kohli was an inferior batsmen to ABD based on similar stats, although Kohli hasnt even reached his peak yet, while ABD is done and dusted.
You see the irony?

Coming back to this post, he is merely answering because there is a thred made, and not created by him. What do you expect someone to do when people vicious like you are out there to abuse Indian players at the drop of a hat? Just listen and not retort? Who said you can't compare?

So let us see, Razzaq's stats in the first 3 test matches -
Against Aus - Runs scored - 11 and 2; against SL ( in Pak) - 9 and 3; against SL ( in Pak ) - 0 and 5!

Bowling - Against Aus - 0
Sl - 2 and 4
Sl - 2 and 0

In ODI's - Batting - He had a highest score of 60, scored at a SR of 60.6!
In ODI Bowling, in his first 26 matches, he had a total of 31 wickets, whereas Pandya has 29!

And I thought @Proactive , you were saying Razzaq was a beast when he started off? He seems to be below Pandya in all aspects!

Mind blowing post.

As I said before... this forum isn't old enough to know what a beast the razzler was. Truly special player

 

[jnaveen1980]

Razzaq had limitations. But he was able to work within his limitations. He complemented Afridi well. Also a dead bat specialist when the order of the day to play out overs on a flat pitch. He saved a test for Pakistan against India alongwith Kamran just by blocking.

 

[Sadevdesai]

Little too early to compare !!!

 

[Bilal7]

Threads like this one are so boring. Razzaq had a very decent international career, Pandya is a nobody at present.