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Absence of reverse swing from the Pakistani pace bowlers in the last few years?

Savak

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The last time i saw a Pakistani reverse swing the ball to good effect was Hasan Ali who used it to good effect against NZ in the UAE in 2018. I don't recall the Pakistani bowlers being able to successfully reverse swing the ball in Australia in 2019, England in 2020 and now in New Zealand.

Surely the bowling coach who keeps getting the position on the basis of being an all time great, who has been in this role on and off since 2006, who has not bothered to invest his time, effort in acquiring the various coaching certificates in Australia, England if he is so passionate about giving back to the game and country, should be held accountable for this?
 
The ball still reverses in UAE.

The 80s and 90s level reverse-swing is not possible without heavy ball-tampering. The likes of Waqar wouldn’t have much of a career without bottle caps.

Wasim and Imran benefited greatly but they were also excellent with the new, untampered balls.

The reality is that someone like Shaheen Afridi would have created havoc in the 80s and 90s with the type of balls Pakistani bowlers were bowling with.
 
The ball still reverses in UAE.

The 80s and 90s level reverse-swing is not possible without heavy ball-tampering. The likes of Waqar wouldn’t have much of a career without bottle caps.

Wasim and Imran benefited greatly but they were also excellent with the new, untampered balls.

The reality is that someone like Shaheen Afridi would have created havoc in the 80s and 90s with the type of balls Pakistani bowlers were bowling with.

Indians even right now are excellent with reverse swing. I have seen all the Indian pacers being able to reverse swing the ball both ways with the older ball
 
The last time i saw a Pakistani reverse swing the ball to good effect was Hasan Ali who used it to good effect against NZ in the UAE in 2018. I don't recall the Pakistani bowlers being able to successfully reverse swing the ball in Australia in 2019, England in 2020 and now in New Zealand.

Surely the bowling coach who keeps getting the position on the basis of being an all time great, who has been in this role on and off since 2006, who has not bothered to invest his time, effort in acquiring the various coaching certificates in Australia, England if he is so passionate about giving back to the game and country, should be held accountable for this?

Hasan Ali was probably the last test match bowler we had that looked like he could get reverse swing with the ball. His action allowed for it because his seam presentation was pretty good, and he also took good care of the ball by bowling in good areas.

Naseem could also be like that if he were to revert back to his original runup, because he is looking toothless right now.

Waqar Younis needs to seriously think about what to do with the time he has left, because he would be a victim of being replaced if he doesn't bring proper skills into our bowlers.
 
Can reverse swing actually happen without ball tampering. Look at the bowling average of starc post sandpaper gate.
 
Lack of technique
More lush outfields
Umpires more alert
Ball passed to umpires during breaks
 
Reverse swing can never be a major factor in a match without ball tampering. England achieved their greatest glory of this century in 05 when they beat the Aussies. You play the same series with the same set of players without a tampered ball & England will lose the series 9/10 times but England cheated their way to win that series.
 
No team does consistent good reverse now and that's not possible due to ball-tampering getting harder to do.

We will still see teams doing it from time to time when the pitch is abrasive and the ground is not lush green, but days of consistent banana reverse swings are gone.
 
No team does consistent good reverse now and that's not possible due to ball-tampering getting harder to do.

We will still see teams doing it from time to time when the pitch is abrasive and the ground is not lush green, but days of consistent banana reverse swings are gone.

Also if that is happening Umpires change the ball.. Seems like a deliberate ploy from ICC to take reverse swing out of the equation as much as possible.
 
The ball still reverses in UAE.

The 80s and 90s level reverse-swing is not possible without heavy ball-tampering. The likes of Waqar wouldn’t have much of a career without bottle caps.

Wasim and Imran benefited greatly but they were also excellent with the new, untampered balls.

The reality is that someone like Shaheen Afridi would have created havoc in the 80s and 90s with the type of balls Pakistani bowlers were bowling with.

You were not born when Reverse Swing was pioneered. Regardless of ball condition/tampering - it takes amazing bowling skills to pull off reverse swing accurately and effectively.

When you were in your nappies, Pakistan bowlers had the skill and knowledge to pull off Reverse Swing. You could give the same heavy tampered ball to other bowlers from other teams and they couldn't pull the same skill, let alone the 'banana swing' for love nor money.

Many tried and failed, and some caught trying to tamper the ball, mainly your bhagwan, Tendulkar.

This is why till this day, despite the tampering, all the bowlers who can bowl reverse swing today, either learned from Pakistan bowlers, or have taken advise from Pakistan greats, mainly the 2Ws.

Now here's the kicker, there's a reason why 2 balls are now used in ODI - to help batsmen. Let this sink in.
 
This made me spill my tea :))

It's a well-known fact that many teams messed around with the ball after the fall of a wicket when they were in a huddle.

Players have admitted to it.

That's why whenever there is a break in play the umpires want the ball passing to them straight away.
 
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Will we see some from Pakistan in this match? If they dont get it in this game and in these conditions - doubt we will see it again in this series.
 
Pak Bowlers have lost the art of reverse swing

Sad sad day for cricket in Pakistan as this series has made it abundantly clear for all to see that our bowlers have lost the art of reverse swing.
On the other hand just look at how the aussie quick bowlers have exploited the conditions.....which should be alien to them. From ball management to bowling reverse they have excelled
 
The problem is many years ago Pakistan decided “we are far above reverse swing now”. They abandoned an art that they invented and now they are getting schooled at their own game.

It’s not even about the ability to reverse swing, it’s what it requires as a team to execute it.

As someone said - on the first day the ball was reversing and we went to our tried and tested failure mentality of leaving everything to the spinners. Surely you must know your own history. Karachi reverses. If the pitch does nothing it reverses.

But our captain has been brought up watching Misbah bowl the spinners till their arms fall off and always just has that one dimensional view of the world.
 
What I find humorous is Waqar younis waxing lyrical about reverse swing showing the ball in hand during tv broadcasts, but when he was coach he discouraged the bowlers from bowling reverse swing and yorkers.

He even said on commentary on day 2 (when shaheen bowled a decent spell bowling full chasing some reverse swing): “I was cursing shaheen that he was bowling too full. He needs to bowl length on this pitch”.

A few minutes later Hasan Ali bowled a harmless length ball: “Axcillant delivery”

I’m just lost for words
 
Reverse swing needs to be encouraged. It has turned a dead match in to a result here.

If you can shine one side, why can’t you maintain the roughness on the other side? Laws need to change.
 
Reverse swing is there, they don’t have the express pace to capitalise on it properly

Guys like Hassan and Shaheen need to hit the gym instead of the hairdresser
 
Reverse swing is there, they don’t have the express pace to capitalise on it properly

Guys like Hassan and Shaheen need to hit the gym instead of the hairdresser

I agree you need pace, but in this era not necessarily express. Starc is bowling at around 143k.

Shaheen should be able to bowl that pace for a couple of spells while the ball is reversing
 
How Aussies channeled Pakistan's reverse-swing kings

It was the kind of bowling that brought back memories of reverse-swing kings Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis, and the mystical art they honed in Pakistan that made it a feared place to tour through the 1980s and '90s.

But, denied the chance in the lead-in to Australia's historic tour to learn the secrets of reverse swing in the country it was pioneered in, Mitchell Starc revealed their series-turning assault in Karachi was aided by practice sessions held in the shadow of the MCG.

Until Starc found Azhar Ali's edge amid a chaotic second session on day three of the second Test, the Aussies had spent 869 consecutive deliveries in the field without their heralded pace attack taking a single wicket, having been neutered by a flat surface in the series opener and a focused Pakistan top order.

Within three hours of Starc's first blow, the home side that had made 935 runs for the loss of just four wickets in Rawalpindi were skittled more than 400 shy of parity at Karachi's National Stadium, where they have lost just two out of 44 Tests in almost 70 years.

Pakistan's batting coach Mohammad Yousuf, the star former Test player who began his career when Wasim and Waqar were in the twilights of theirs, said the at-times unplayable spells from Starc (3-29) and skipper Pat Cummins (1-39) on Monday were reminiscent of the pace legends

"They had a better bowling attack and it showed, we have seen this in the past when Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis or Shoaib Akhtar would bowl, they would give the opponent a tough time," said Yousuf. "And this is what we faced here as well, a great bowling attack."

But while Wasim and Waqar honed their devastating old-ball skills for years on Pakistan's dry, abrasive surfaces, Australia's quicks arrived for their first visit to the cricket-mad nation in 24 years with minimal chance to acquaint themselves with the local conditions.

Fresh off decimating England on juiced-up home decks that largely kept the Kookaburra in pristine shape and which necessitated classical seam and swing bowling, Starc and co. had readied themselves for vastly different surfaces at a near week-long training camp in Melbourne.

That camp effectively took place during the traditional window when a tour match, the lack of which is often decried as a major factor in touring Test teams underperforming, would ordinarily be played in local conditions.

Although unsure of exactly what would confront them in Rawalpindi, Karachi and Lahore for their first Test campaign abroad in two-and-a-half years, the Aussies were at least certain it would be nothing like what they had just encountered at home against England.

That the drawn first Test bore out on a lifeless surface only added to their base of knowledge, believes Starc

"We've had some extremely thorough conversations as a group in the lead-up to this series, throughout last week with what went on in Rawalpindi," the left-armer said.

"Those few days we had in Melbourne before we came away, we were unsure what we were going to face when we got over here so we applied ourselves to all different scenarios before we left.

"I think that's a feature of this group, to adapt and learn on our feet. And I think we're showing that through the last three days with how we've learned from last week, obviously faced with different conditions here this week, but being able to adapt and stay pretty calm.

"We had one main session in Melbourne before we came away where we all bowled with reverse (swinging) balls.

"We didn't see too much of the old ball through the summer, or certainly reverse swing … it was more about trying to swing the new ball or trying nip it off the seam during the summer.

"So it was just getting some of those cues back to where I feel I need my action to be to get that reverse swing around the wicket (and) try to get the ball to go both ways."

Starc of course did not arrive in Pakistan as a complete subcontinental novice, pointing out on Monday that he had snared 24 wickets at 15.16 in 2016 in Sri Lanka when presented with similar conditions.

The 32-year-old notes that the fuller length he regularly bowls compared to fellow pace stars Cummins and Josh Hazlewood means that, although he typically is more expensive than that pair, he's a bigger threat with the reversing ball.

His extra pace, lower and more slingy bowling action combined with the ability to target batters' pads and stumps from both over and around the wicket has seen him become a reverse-swinging force.

Fawad Alam, who got his first chance at the crease seven-and-a-half days into a series that had until that point been dominated by his fellow batters, found that out when, on the first ball after Azhar Ali's exit, a devastating late-bender cannoned into his front pad.

It was fitting that the MCG had prepared Starc for what was to follow when Mohammad Rizwan played and missed at a hat-trick ball that nipped violently away from him, just as Joe Root had done in Melbourne in late December when the mercurial speedster had also just taken two wickets in as many balls.

The Root and Rizwan balls marked the 14th and 15th times Starc had been on a hat-trick in international cricket, but again he missed the milestone with an unplayable delivery.

"I didn't know that was the number," said Starc, who once took two hat-tricks in a Sheffield Shield match but is yet to replicate the feat at international level. "I missed out in the same way in Melbourne I think as well.

"It's not like you chase them … I think that ball must have hit a crack a little bit and gone away from Rizwan.

"It was still a decent ball I think, it just didn't find the edge."

https://www.cricket.com.au/news/mit...am-waqar-younis-australia-pakistan/2022-03-15
 
I agree you need pace, but in this era not necessarily express. Starc is bowling at around 143k.

Shaheen should be able to bowl that pace for a couple of spells while the ball is reversing

Starc was throwing thunderbolts at high 140s not 140s. Both Shaheen and Hassan look like chicken figure when compared to their counterparts. They need to hit the gym and put some endurance muscles to sustain higher speeds for longer period of time.
 
Wasim and Waqar made sure that the team took good care of the ball. The fielders and spinners were very well versed in the art of looking after the ball as well. The fielders would throw the ball one bounce to the keeper to ensure the ball gets scruffed up.

Most importantly the biggest thing i find lacking in our pacers is that they lack the ability to reverse the ball both ways, Shaheen reverse the ball into the left hander and away from the right hander, Hasan reverses the ball into the right hander and away from the left hander, the W's worked very hard to master the art to hide the ball in their hands till the last second so that the batsman and non-striker could not see the shine on the ball and they could reverse the ball in both directions to keep the batsman guessing.

One dimensional predictable reverse swing is no problem for quality batsmen. Watch how Wasim Akram tortured Dravid with reverse swing in both directions in 1999.
 
It is indeed which MoYo and Saqlian had not thought in their wildest dream about the impact of reverse swing but Australia shores away were practising it in Melbourne that just shows strategic planning on one end and subjective planning on the other end
 
Reverse swing is there, they don’t have the express pace to capitalise on it properly

Guys like Hassan and Shaheen need to hit the gym instead of the hairdresser
Even Zaheer Khan and Anderson reversed without express pace and both were lethel. If you can reverse at express pace thats good, but its not mandatory. Current Pakistani bowlers does not even looks bothered about any kind of swing or seam, be it reverse swing or conventional. Only Shaheen is an exception who gets a conventional swing with new ball but looks clueless with the old ball.
 
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