Actions of Israeli forces in the occupied territories

[GBK_Fan]

Poor fellow. Thinking short term. Read the post #76 above yours. Think L...O...N...G term!

A century? A century and a half? Really that's your answer. Your posts across threads seem devoid of facts and based on assumptions and wishful thinking. Do you have any tangible data to back your posts? Which model can predict 150 years ahead? And what about the x other outcomes where the Palestinians are pushed out from all land? We ignore them, so you sleep easy?

 

[Yossarian]

Thing is Israel is already very dense...i mean some classrooms have upto 40 kids...hospitals have long waiting times and there is lots of traffic...by 2040 Israels population is projected to grow by 5m...with the number of elderly doubling...and the Haredi population too...they are 11% currently...

Israel when it was created had a population of 850,000 and that has gone up tenfold...Israelis are starting to emigrate but they get 25,000 new immigrants themselves a year...

Haredi's have 6.5children on average...Bedouins 5.5...

Palestinian Arabs as it happens were averaging 8.5 at one point....it was encouraged for Israelis to have more children as apatriotic act but this is coming back to bite them a bit ...there are large subsidies paid to big families...Haredis for instance are 65% of those who are unemployed...

Bibi sort of addressed this by cutting child allowances in half which lowered the birth rate...

Now imagine what a popualtion disaster a one state solution qwould be...

Israeli Arabs have less kids than Jewish kids so they arent a demographic weapon in Israel proper...

Exactly. So if not one-state, then has to be two-state. Right?

And with the way Israel is carving up the West Bank, they're making a viable Palestinian state almost impossible. So back to one-state.

Hence my point re- l...o...n...g term. Israelis have been winning the battles for the last 70 odd years, and they will continue doing so for the next half century or so. But then what? Another Jewish exodus from the Holy Lands?

 

[Yossarian]

A century? A century and a half? Really that's your answer. Your posts across threads seem devoid of facts and based on assumptions and wishful thinking. Do you have any tangible data to back your posts? Which model can predict 150 years ahead? And what about the x other outcomes where the Palestinians are pushed out from all land? We ignore them, so you sleep easy?

I suggest you go and read the history of the Holy Lands. History has a habit of repeating itself. The only reason Israel is currently a power in the region is due to the support of the USA. Which is partly due to the money/power/support of those of a Jewish background who support Israel, but mainly due to the power of the Evangelical right.

The Evangelicals End Times theology declares that the Jewish people must maintain control of Israel and Jerusalem, and retake the Al-Aqsa Mosque (a/k/a the Dome of the Rock), or Jesus won’t return.

 

[shaykh]

Exactly. So if not one-state, then has to be two-state. Right?

And with the way Israel is carving up the West Bank, they're making a viable Palestinian state almost impossible. So back to one-state.

Hence my point re- l...o...n...g term. Israelis have been winning the battles for the last 70 odd years, and they will continue doing so for the next half century or so. But then what? Another Jewish exodus from the Holy Lands?

Well it's impossible...right of return is one of the Palestinian demands and it's not happening...

The idea that grandchildren of refugees have a right to return is just not viable...not to mention again the population issues this creates...

Israel is better of solving its demographic problem internally...the encouragement for population growth as a patriotic act is gradually reducing...the push of the Talmudic suggestion of 2 kids is being pushed...less subsidies for those with kids...one of Netanyahus smarter moves as finance minister...

And you're presuming the Arabs are willing to compromise on things...settlements, 1967...these are tiny issues in a bigger problem...and the fact is even if Israel were to be pragmatic which they aren't right now...more hawkish in fact...their negotiation partners have positions that can't be accepted...

And with the failed peace processes Israeli society has moved away from the centre so there are few things that Israel can offer also...

The peace process isn't viable...

Its all and well discussing two states but what parameters can work for both sides...i dont see anything...

 

[Yossarian]

The idea that grandchildren of refugees have a right to return is just not viable...not to mention again the population issues this creates...

Unless you're of Jewish descent of course? In which case, never mind grandchildren, a right of return even with a gap of hundreds of generations and thousands of years is perfectly justifiable?

 

[GBK_Fan]

I suggest you go and read the history of the Holy Lands. History has a habit of repeating itself. The only reason Israel is currently a power in the region is due to the support of the USA. Which is partly due to the money/power/support of those of a Jewish background who support Israel, but mainly due to the power of the Evangelical right.

The Evangelicals End Times theology declares that the Jewish people must maintain control of Israel and Jerusalem, and retake the Al-Aqsa Mosque (a/k/a the Dome of the Rock), or Jesus won’t return.

There are a number of quotes around history. The full quote being, if you don't learn from history, it will repeat itself. But then that's what it is, a quote, may be true, may not be true. Please argue on facts rather than what happened in the past. History is also full of genocidial maniacs killing millions, people being enslaved or driven out from their lands. Why not apply them here and ask the Palestinians to move out?

 

[shaykh]

Unless you're of Jewish descent of course? In which case, never mind grandchildren, a right of return even with a gap of hundreds of generations and thousands of years is perfectly justifiable?

Well they created a Jewish state didn't they...the Arabs could have prevented it if they weren't all busy undermining each other...

They rejected the partition and went to war and lost...one can moan about 1948 and Balfour but the fact is Israel exists and they have no plans to give up what they have gained...

The Jews actually have shown a lot more love to their own than then the Arabs...all of those expelled or who left for new pastures from the Middle East and Europe were given a new home and citizenship...

The Arab nations like Egypt and Jordan had no interest in Palestinian self determination and on losing the war refused to give the resultant refugee population even basic rights...

Imagine if Pakistan did that to the Muhajirs...it's absurd...that 70 years later refugees have great grandchildren born in camps...and continue to be stateless...I can't think of a displaced population that has ever happened to...

You mentioned Yugoslavia...I was in Serbia not that long ago and met quite a few Serbs who were from Bosnia and a few from Croatia...they became Serbs...that's what should happen no?...

If that had happened then this conflict would likely have ended a long time ago...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Well it's impossible...right of return is one of the Palestinian demands and it's not happening...

The idea that grandchildren of refugees have a right to return is just not viable...not to mention again the population issues this creates...

Israel is better of solving its demographic problem internally...the encouragement for population growth as a patriotic act is gradually reducing...the push of the Talmudic suggestion of 2 kids is being pushed...less subsidies for those with kids...one of Netanyahus smarter moves as finance minister...

And you're presuming the Arabs are willing to compromise on things...settlements, 1967...these are tiny issues in a bigger problem...and the fact is even if Israel were to be pragmatic which they aren't right now...more hawkish in fact...their negotiation partners have positions that can't be accepted...

And with the failed peace processes Israeli society has moved away from the centre so there are few things that Israel can offer also...

The peace process isn't viable...

Its all and well discussing two states but what parameters can work for both sides...i dont see anything...

I agree.

Jerusalem will be taken by force as it always has in history.

Muslims will reach 2billion plus and as times goes by this will only increase. While Jews will remain less than 50 million for the next hundred years. Eventually the Christian Zionism power which got the Jews in Palestine will weaken and Muslims will take back all of the land and as before will let Jews remain and those than dont can go back to Europe.

 

[Cracket]

Trump did what others only talked about.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/939006911629869056

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Trump did what others only talked about.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/939006911629869056

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

They are all the same but thought twice as the timing wasn't right. Puppet Trump has been told to go ahead now as most of the middle east is in ruinings now.

 

[shaykh]

I agree.

Jerusalem will be taken by force as it always has in history.

Muslims will reach 2billion plus and as times goes by this will only increase. While Jews will remain less than 50 million for the next hundred years. Eventually the Christian Zionism power which got the Jews in Palestine will weaken and Muslims will take back all of the land and as before will let Jews remain and those than dont can go back to Europe.

Lol because numbers are what won the Jews Israel?...

One thing you can guarantee with the Arabs is their ability to undermine each other...it's why Israel exists in it's form today...and frankly that disunity is still in place...

What's impressive about the formation of Israel is just how many differing opinions there were within Zionism yet they actually managed to work as a team...and it's because they actually had a plan...

Even when you look at Palestinian nationalism pre 1948 it was in various forms with different infighting clans...then pan-Arabism failed because the Syrians viewed the Palestinians in a negative light...and the story can go on and on...but the underlying point is the same...Arabs lost these wars...it wasn't the Americans who won the Israelis '48 and '67 nor was it numbers or weaponry...

Whether its nationalism or Islamism Muslims have shown they can't work together...

By the way you are aware that over half of Israelis are Jews from the Middle East...the 'go back to Europe' is a little done tbf...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Lol because numbers are what won the Jews Israel?...

One thing you can guarantee with the Arabs is their ability to undermine each other...it's why Israel exists in it's form today...and frankly that disunity is still in place...

What's impressive about the formation of Israel is just how many differing opinions there were within Zionism yet they actually managed to work as a team...and it's because they actually had a plan...

Even when you look at Palestinian nationalism pre 1948 it was in various forms with different infighting clans...then pan-Arabism failed because the Syrians viewed the Palestinians in a negative light...and the story can go on and on...but the underlying point is the same...Arabs lost these wars...it wasn't the Americans who won the Israelis '48 and '67 nor was it numbers or weaponry...

Whether its nationalism or Islamism Muslims have shown they can't work together...

By the way you are aware that over half of Israelis are Jews from the Middle East...the 'go back to Europe' is a little done tbf...

Ive already told you it was Christians Zionism which formed Israel and it's been backed by them since it's illegitemate birth (sorry I cant use the simple word for this). Jews themselves have never had any sort of Empire, they are not great in numbers or great in warfare.

There is nothing impressive about stealing one peoples land and giving it to another or perhaps you'r reffering to the bombings by Jewish terrorists such as the King David Hotel which put pressure on the Brits to leave quicker than they wanted?

The majority of Jews living in Israel are from those families who came in from other parts of the world.

Israel is no different to previous crusader outposts, its temporary, the geoghraphy and demographics will always be against anyone who tries to occupy the holy land. It's only a matter of time even if it takes another century before Israel is in the history books.

 

[Varun]

Muslims will reach 2billion plus and as times goes by this will only increase. While Jews will remain less than 50 million for the next hundred years. Eventually the Christian Zionism power which got the Jews in Palestine will weaken and Muslims will take back all of the land and as before will let Jews remain and those than dont can go back to Europe.

Sad to note that the current Muslim population of 1.8 billion cannot succeed over the slender Jewish population of just over 15 million. Another 0.2 billion will mean diddly squat if the Muslim countries around continue to be a losers gang squabbling among each other and lacking self sufficiency in anything of substance.

Besides, they have already decided that the 'real' enemy is Iran and will proceed as such. Palestine is an international orphan and old news, with only British Pakistanis standing up for them and ironically residing in a country which started the mess in the first place and actively funds them politically and militarily every day.

 

[Abdullah719]

Muslims pray outside White House to protest Trump Jerusalem move

WASHINGTON: Hundreds of Muslims attended Friday prayers in front of the White House to protest President Donald Trump’s decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

Responding to the call of American Muslim organisations, worshippers laid out their prayer mats at a park in front of the president’s residence.

Wearing traditional Palestinian keffiyeh scarves or the colors of the Palestinian flag, protesters also held placards denouncing Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

On Wednesday, Trump declared that the US recognises Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and announced the relocation of the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem — turning his back on decades of American and international diplomacy.

“Trump does not own a piece of soil of Jerusalem and Palestine. He owns the Trump Tower. He can give it away to the Israelis,” Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), told AFP.

The president is “empowering Christian religious extremism in the US,” he added.

Speaking alongside other prominent figures from the American Muslim community during the protest, Awad called upon Trump to “put the American interests first, not those of a foreign power and its lobbies in the US.”

Another protester, Zaid al-Harasheh, told AFP that Trump’s decision is “not for peace” and will “create more chaos.”

Trump’s declaration sparked anger across the Muslim world. On Friday, clashes between thousands of Palestinians and Israeli security forces in the West Bank and on the Gaza Strip left two people dead and dozens more injured.

Israel seized control of Palestinian East Jerusalem from Jordan in 1967 and later annexed it, a move not recognized by the international community.

The Jewish state considers Jerusalem its undivided capital, but Palestinians believe East Jerusalem is illegally occupied and see it as the capital of their future state.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/157996...ide-white-house-protest-trump-jerusalem-move/

 

[shaykh]

In relation to the post above...this silly idea is doing the rounds a lot ...this 'trump has given away Jerusalem'...

It's nonsense ...the Israelis declared it as their capital for a long time ...the Knesset is there ...

Nothing on the ground has actually changed ...

 

[mummad]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-israel-saudi-insight/despite-furor-over-jerusalem-move-saudis-seen-on-board-with-u-s-peace-efforts-idUSKBN1E22GR

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Sad to note that the current Muslim population of 1.8 billion cannot succeed over the slender Jewish population of just over 15 million. Another 0.2 billion will mean diddly squat if the Muslim countries around continue to be a losers gang squabbling among each other and lacking self sufficiency in anything of substance.

Besides, they have already decided that the 'real' enemy is Iran and will proceed as such. Palestine is an international orphan and old news, with only British Pakistanis standing up for them and ironically residing in a country which started the mess in the first place and actively funds them politically and militarily every day.

This obsession with British Pakistanis is only a PP thing, probably comes about because of the large Indian contingent here which clashes mostly on religious ground. But if you think about it, who is feeding the Palestinian question into the Pakistani minds in Britain? It doesn't come from nowhere, I would imagine it is kept at the forefront of affairs in the mixed mosques where Arabs pray together with other nationalities.

That aside, I would agree numbers mean nothing, and the squabbling between different Muslim factions should keep Israel fairly safe for the foreseeable future.

 

[Varun]

This obsession with British Pakistanis is only a PP thing, probably comes about because of the large Indian contingent here which clashes mostly on religious ground. But if you think about it, who is feeding the Palestinian question into the Pakistani minds in Britain? It doesn't come from nowhere, I would imagine it is kept at the forefront of affairs in the mixed mosques where Arabs pray together with other nationalities.

I don't know about the dynamics of the said mosques, but it's well known that the Palestinian issue doesn't capture the Arab attention as much as it used to some decades back, leave alone stray Arabs residing outside of Arabia. So I would argue that it is self fed by British Pakistanis, almost like a rallying cry by them to encourage the rest unite under this single banner.

If you look at any story or photo of a protest or march on this issue in the UK in recent years, you can easily generalize the participants of this contingent - and there doesn't seem to be any Arabs to be seen.

 

[Yossarian]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-israel-saudi-insight/despite-furor-over-jerusalem-move-saudis-seen-on-board-with-u-s-peace-efforts-idUSKBN1E22GR

Mohammed Bin Salman is Saudi Arabia's Donald Trump.

The only difference is that whilst Trump's strings are pulled by the Evangelical Christian right and the wealthy American backers of Israel, MBS's strings are pulled by the Americans, ie by the same lot backing Trump through Trump (and his son-in-law).

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't know about the dynamics of the said mosques, but it's well known that the Palestinian issue doesn't capture the Arab attention as much as it used to some decades back, leave alone stray Arabs residing outside of Arabia. So I would argue that it is self fed by British Pakistanis, almost like a rallying cry by them to encourage the rest unite under this single banner.

If you look at any story or photo of a protest or march on this issue in the UK in recent years, you can easily generalize the participants of this contingent - and there doesn't seem to be any Arabs to be seen.

Do you have any photos in mind of these marches? I was always under the impression that they were fairly mixed with quite a few whites mixed in, I don't follow these events, but I'd be surprised if Arabs weren't present. Most of the pro Palestinian agitation used to be stoked in the universities where a lot of Arabs mixed with others at the Islamic societies and events. Pakistani mosques are usually more inclined to Barelvi naat singing, and Milad i Nabi type celebrations, with some inter-community political in-fighting thrown in.

 

[Varun]

Do you have any photos in mind of these marches? I was always under the impression that they were fairly mixed with quite a few whites mixed in, I don't follow these events, but I'd be surprised if Arabs weren't present.

Click-through to view:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28715052
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/17/london-palestine-action-oxford-circus-arms-trade
https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-of-pro-palestinians-march-in-london-against-balfour/

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Click-through to view:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28715052
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/17/london-palestine-action-oxford-circus-arms-trade
https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-of-pro-palestinians-march-in-london-against-balfour/

They look like a mixture of the general population including whites, Arabs and desis. Maybe you are only seeing Pakistanis because your mind has become conditioned to see what it needs to fit your narrative.

 

[Yossarian]

Click-through to view:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28715052
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/17/london-palestine-action-oxford-circus-arms-trade
https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-of-pro-palestinians-march-in-london-against-balfour/

I fear that you may need to update your perceptions of what Arabs look like.

It looks to me as if the vast majority of the demonstrators are either local whites or those of various Arab origins. (remember Arabs range from Morocco on the west coast of Africa, all the way to Oman and Yemen on the South-Eastern tip of the Arabian Peninsula, and from Syria in the North, all the way down to Southern Egypt) In fact, there are very few desis amongst the demonstrators overall.

 

[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">'Only US has credibility when it comes to mediating Israeli-Palestinian conflict' - Haley to <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/UNSC?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#UNSC</a> <a href="https://t.co/GhBSUcxOOi">https://t.co/GhBSUcxOOi</a> <a href="https://t.co/uD9fnF96hK">pic.twitter.com/uD9fnF96hK</a></p>— RT (@RT_com) <a href="https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/939649405153619970?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 10, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Saeed]

Unfortunately Arabs will keep getting humiliated like this as long as their current rulers are there. These anti-corruption activists would rather spend millions on useless paintings and make some reforms to appease their enemies.

 

[Thomaskutty]

So you accept everything which is written in the Old Testament/Torah?

It's also the holiest site of Christians. What about them?

What matters is what Jews think about their Torah and prophecies , not what I think .

Christianity is irrelevant here , they don't have a single homeland but hundreds of denominations spread around the world .. some christians do believe that this is necessary for the second coming of Jesus but that's a different matter

 

[Thomaskutty]

The 1st (next) Arab leader who visits Trump in the White House, and is seen posing with Trump, will be signing his own demise.

That is an infantile view of things but I am not surprised.
Apart from the islamist dictator Ergodan making some noise , most leaders have expressed the token 'concern' and aren't that bothered. Saudi , Egypt and Jordan are too invested in their anti-Iran alliance with Israel to be affected by this. Add to that you have a terror outfit like Hamas infesting palestinian politics and most Arab leaders just want to keep their distance.

 

[Yossarian]

That is an infantile view of things but I am not surprised.
Apart from the islamist dictator Ergodan making some noise , most leaders have expressed the token 'concern' and aren't that bothered. Saudi , Egypt and Jordan are too invested in their anti-Iran alliance with Israel to be affected by this. Add to that you have a terror outfit like Hamas infesting palestinian politics and most Arab leaders just want to keep their distance.

The infantile view is of those posters that only get their info from the internet/media, have no clue whatsoever as to what Bayt al-Maqdis means to Muslims everywhere, and then proceed to write posts as if they were some sort of experts on this topic. These ignorant posters seem to think that most of the Sheikhs and Kings who rule the Arab states, as your posts seems to assume, are somehow representative of the average Muslims in these countries. If the Muslims rise up against their own dictator rulers over this, it won't because of the Palestinians rights taken away, but because of the long term implications over Bayt al-Maqdis. The only part that the Palestinians will play will be to act as a catalyst by getting these Muslim masses into believing that the future of Bayt al-Maqdis is at stake.
But the aforementioned ignorant posters won't see that because this is too deep for them, it doesn't fit in with their soundbite sauces of news.

 

[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Haley: "I strongly believe this is going to move the ball forward for the peace process." <a href="https://twitter.com/jaketapper?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@jaketapper</a How? Haley: "He just took Jerusalem off the table." <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/SMH?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#SMH</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/CNNSotu?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@cnnsotu</a></p>— Josh Rogin (@joshrogin) <a href="https://twitter.com/joshrogin/status/939901914598305792?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 10, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Waiting for more of these alternative 'facts'...

 

[shaz619]

Obviously in the grand scheme this make little difference but it's naive for people to think this wouldn't increase tensions between the Palestinians and Israelis.

 

[the Great Khan]

I don't know about the dynamics of the said mosques, but it's well known that the Palestinian issue doesn't capture the Arab attention as much as it used to some decades back, leave alone stray Arabs residing outside of Arabia. So I would argue that it is self fed by British Pakistanis, almost like a rallying cry by them to encourage the rest unite under this single banner.

If you look at any story or photo of a protest or march on this issue in the UK in recent years, you can easily generalize the participants of this contingent - and there doesn't seem to be any Arabs to be seen.

you have zero proof of this. I would counter this and say that one of the most important advocates of the palestinian struggle in the UK is freinds of Al aqsa. Started by a gujrati Muslim.

Indian, arab and other muslims are far more active in the anti isreali struggle here in the uk than pakistanis.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Sad to note that the current Muslim population of 1.8 billion cannot succeed over the slender Jewish population of just over 15 million. Another 0.2 billion will mean diddly squat if the Muslim countries around continue to be a losers gang squabbling among each other and lacking self sufficiency in anything of substance.

Besides, they have already decided that the 'real' enemy is Iran and will proceed as such. Palestine is an international orphan and old news, with only British Pakistanis standing up for them and ironically residing in a country which started the mess in the first place and actively funds them politically and militarily every day.

The British Empire gave them the land and the American Empire has been protecting them. Without the Christians and superpowers of the west, the Jews couldn't take a brick from the holy land.

I dont know where people get the deluded idea 15m Jews can do all this alone.

You clearly havent been watching the news, millions have openly protested all around the world.

 

[KingKhanWC]

What matters is what Jews think about their Torah and prophecies , not what I think .

Christianity is irrelevant here , they don't have a single homeland but hundreds of denominations spread around the world .. some christians do believe that this is necessary for the second coming of Jesus but that's a different matter

Muslims and Christians also see it as the holy land. You are clueless and your logic is if they claim to be theirs , it is lol.

 

[shaykh]

The British Empire gave them the land and the American Empire has been protecting them. Without the Christians and superpowers of the west, the Jews couldn't take a brick from the holy land.

I dont know where people get the deluded idea 15m Jews can do all this alone.

You clearly havent been watching the news, millions have openly protested all around the world.

Yes and no...Jews were emigrating well before the Balfour declaration...Zionism obviously predates that...the Ottomans allowed them to buy up land etc...so even before the Balfour Declaration there was a demographic change...

What Britain did do with the Balfour Declaration is confirm that the Jews would be given a home...but this was the destruction of the Ottoman Empire and Britain was busy making promises everywhere...so it had to balance things between the Jews and the Arabs and frankly did an awful job...they had also promised Jordan 3/4 of Palestine...

By the late 30s they were starting to get sick of the Zionists...and were more interested in the oil rich Arab states...they restricted Jewish immigration/land sales etc...supported the likes of Husseini...and then ended up having to fight them...and the Arabs...think the white paper during the Holocaust for instance...

it's why the British left things to the UN...they had no control by 1947...they tried to play both sides and failed...they laid foundations but the creation of Israel wasn't down to Britain...they were in the anti-Israel camp by the start of the war...

As for why the '48 war was lost...that's all down to Arab disunity and the other nations like Jordan and Egypt trying to undermine each other every step of the way...

It's far too easy to blame big bad America for everything...the '67 war also wasn't an American win either...it was just superior tactics...

The Jews are good at what they do...the Arabs are terrible at wars...the fact that a draw is the highlight of this struggle is a testament to how badly they have performed...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yes and no...Jews were emigrating well before the Balfour declaration...Zionism obviously predates that...the Ottomans allowed them to buy up land etc...so even before the Balfour Declaration there was a demographic change...

What Britain did do with the Balfour Declaration is confirm that the Jews would be given a home...but this was the destruction of the Ottoman Empire and Britain was busy making promises everywhere...so it had to balance things between the Jews and the Arabs and frankly did an awful job...they had also promised Jordan 3/4 of Palestine...

By the late 30s they were starting to get sick of the Zionists...and were more interested in the oil rich Arab states...they restricted Jewish immigration/land sales etc...supported the likes of Husseini...and then ended up having to fight them...and the Arabs...think the white paper during the Holocaust for instance...

it's why the British left things to the UN...they had no control by 1947...they tried to play both sides and failed...they laid foundations but the creation of Israel wasn't down to Britain...they were in the anti-Israel camp by the start of the war...

As for why the '48 war was lost...that's all down to Arab disunity and the other nations like Jordan and Egypt trying to undermine each other every step of the way...

It's far too easy to blame big bad America for everything...the '67 war also wasn't an American win either...it was just superior tactics...

The Jews are good at what they do...the Arabs are terrible at wars...the fact that a draw is the highlight of this struggle is a testament to how badly they have performed...

Im not sure why you wasted your time trying to give me a history lesson.

Simple facts.

Jews were given a homeland by a third power(superpower at the time). Yes Arabs allowed their 'cousins' to buy land and move in but didn't expect to be stabbed in the back.

Superiour weapons ensured victory for Israel, which were provided by superpowers.

Jews themselves have little history of great warriors or empires. Without the superpowers support politically and militarily, they wouldn't exist now.

 

[Pakpak]

Disgusting. Feel terrible for the Palestinians; their dream of a state looks a distant dream now.

 

[s28]

Gary Lineker speaks for billions revolted by these modern day Nazis

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Sickening. <a href="https://t.co/ndRH97Hkwx">https://t.co/ndRH97Hkwx</a></p>— Gary Lineker (@GaryLineker) <a href="https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/940293592291127297?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 11, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[shaykh]

Im not sure why you wasted your time trying to give me a history lesson.

Simple facts.

Jews were given a homeland by a third power(superpower at the time). Yes Arabs allowed their 'cousins' to buy land and move in but didn't expect to be stabbed in the back.

Superiour weapons ensured victory for Israel, which were provided by superpowers.

Jews themselves have little history of great warriors or empires. Without the superpowers support politically and militarily, they wouldn't exist now.

Well cos you obviously need a history lesson...

The Jews weren't given land...they were promised it...just as the Palestinians were in San Remo and the Jordanians were...as I said...everyone was promised something...

As for your second point...it's absolute nonsense...what superpowers provided weapons to Israel in 1948?...Britain were anti-Israel in 1948...and there was an embargo in place...the Jews got around this by getting weapons from Czechoslovakia...the British supported the Jordanians at this point...and the US had no military involvement...

The Jews were greater in number in term of those fighting...they had a unified goal...the Jordanian army was the only decent army on the Arab side but they lacked motivation and didn't really want to fight...the Arab armies fought each other...and the Palestinians in what is now Israel barely fought at all...it's a combination of the Israelis performing well...and the Arabs performing exceptionally badly...

So no simply facts...you produce rhetoric and you always have...

In 1967 also the Arabs just weren't good enough...they got caught out by Israeli strategy and pre-emption...

As for homelands by a third power...you do realise that the Middle East is essentially that right...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Well cos you obviously need a history lesson...

The Jews weren't given land...they were promised it...just as the Palestinians were in San Remo and the Jordanians were...as I said...everyone was promised something...

As for your second point...it's absolute nonsense...what superpowers provided weapons to Israel in 1948?...Britain were anti-Israel in 1948...and there was an embargo in place...the Jews got around this by getting weapons from Czechoslovakia...the British supported the Jordanians at this point...and the US had no military involvement...

The Jews were greater in number in term of those fighting...they had a unified goal...the Jordanian army was the only decent army on the Arab side but they lacked motivation and didn't really want to fight...the Arab armies fought each other...and the Palestinians in what is now Israel barely fought at all...it's a combination of the Israelis performing well...and the Arabs performing exceptionally badly...

So no simply facts...you produce rhetoric and you always have...

In 1967 also the Arabs just weren't good enough...they got caught out by Israeli strategy and pre-emption...

As for homelands by a third power...you do realise that the Middle East is essentially that right...

Not from the likes of you I dont. One day you claim to be a Muslim, then an atheist. Youre too confused to maintain any consistency. Search your previous posts on the same subject and what you are writing now.

Promised by whom? lol

Did the B17 bombers come from Czechosloavakia? Or how about the mortars and other weapons?

Do you honestly believe Israel has come all this way on it's own? lol.

 

[ShadabFakhar]

Not from the likes of you I dont. One day you claim to be a Muslim, then an atheist. Youre too confused to maintain any consistency. Search your previous posts on the same subject and what you are writing now.

Promised by whom? lol

Did the B17 bombers come from Czechosloavakia? Or how about the mortars and other weapons?

Do you honestly believe Israel has come all this way on it's own? lol.

His arguments are from the Israel Advocacy Movement(IAM) manual. Sounds like he's a volunteer. Their mission statement is to "counter the increasing hostility Israel suffers at the hands of the British public, caused by huge volumes disinformation circulated by Israel’s enemies. We intend to counter this bias with street level education."

 

[shaykh]

Not from the likes of you I dont. One day you claim to be a Muslim, then an atheist. Youre too confused to maintain any consistency. Search your previous posts on the same subject and what you are writing now.

Promised by whom? lol

Did the B17 bombers come from Czechosloavakia? Or how about the mortars and other weapons?

Do you honestly believe Israel has come all this way on it's own? lol.

Care to retort any actual points...

You said the superpowers supported Israel...they did and then they didn't...Britain was anti-Israel by the time of the 1948 war...at that point they preferred Jordan...and in general they did...

As for my previous writings on the subject...maybe I actually read and research a lot more now that I don't have dogma...

Hence I can provide actual information rather than generic soundbites like you did and in some ways I did...

The British actually went back on their original promise to the Jews and limited the size of what Israel would be and offered more of it to Hussein in Jordan...it's far too simplistic to pick on moment ie Balfour and then decide this was their position for 30 years...because it clearly wasn't...there were periods where Arab immigration was increased into Palestine and Jewish limited at the behest of the Arabs...the support for Husseini...the White Paper...

Jewish terrorism at the King David Hotel was the final straw for the British...so honestly this notion that Britain supported Israel in 1948 is a fiction...feel free to show otherwise...

Israel was actually provided arms by communist Czechoslovakia...the left were pro-Israeli at this time...the US refused to sell arms to Ben Gurion...they did it with Stalins knowledge...

The Arabs were armed but just weren't motivated...110,000 Jews who were motivated VS 60,000 Arabs who were busy fighting each other...i've written a longer piece about why the Arabs failed and you can find it if you want to try refute something...

It's not the David and Goliath story that the Israelis present...it's much more Arabs undermining each other that contributed to their defeat...and the fact that their armies were only really trained at suppressing internal revolts...

The Haganah etc were well trained units...

1948 is Israel's victory but more than that it is the Arab worlds loss...

 

[shaykh]

His arguments are from the Israel Advocacy Movement(IAM) manual. Sounds like he's a volunteer. Their mission statement is to "counter the increasing hostility Israel suffers at the hands of the British public, caused by huge volumes disinformation circulated by Israel’s enemies. We intend to counter this bias with street level education."

Yet you don't seem to be able to counter anything?...

What i've said actually isn't even an actual defence of Israel...it's more the silly mantra that they only succeed through foreign support...it's actually more beneficial for you to look at the real reason which is that Arab leaders have always shown they prefer to work against each than together...

Hence even right now you have MBS working with Israel as is Sisi etc...point is it's easier to blame the likes of the US and Britain but in real terms it's never as straightforward as that...and in 1948 that certainly wasn't even the case...

The heroic Israeli position btw is that they beat 5 Arab armies that were intent on destroying them...I certainly haven't presented that argument...feel free to see if what i have said is in the IAM manual...

 

[shaz619]

Don't always agree with shaykh but calling him an IAM volunteer is pathetic, looks like some people are not allowed to have an opposing view.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Care to retort any actual points...

You said the superpowers supported Israel...they did and then they didn't...Britain was anti-Israel by the time of the 1948 war...at that point they preferred Jordan...and in general they did...

As for my previous writings on the subject...maybe I actually read and research a lot more now that I don't have dogma...

Hence I can provide actual information rather than generic soundbites like you did and in some ways I did...

The British actually went back on their original promise to the Jews and limited the size of what Israel would be and offered more of it to Hussein in Jordan...it's far too simplistic to pick on moment ie Balfour and then decide this was their position for 30 years...because it clearly wasn't...there were periods where Arab immigration was increased into Palestine and Jewish limited at the behest of the Arabs...the support for Husseini...the White Paper...

Jewish terrorism at the King David Hotel was the final straw for the British...so honestly this notion that Britain supported Israel in 1948 is a fiction...feel free to show otherwise...

Israel was actually provided arms by communist Czechoslovakia...the left were pro-Israeli at this time...the US refused to sell arms to Ben Gurion...they did it with Stalins knowledge...

The Arabs were armed but just weren't motivated...110,000 Jews who were motivated VS 60,000 Arabs who were busy fighting each other...i've written a longer piece about why the Arabs failed and you can find it if you want to try refute something...

It's not the David and Goliath story that the Israelis present...it's much more Arabs undermining each other that contributed to their defeat...and the fact that their armies were only really trained at suppressing internal revolts...

The Haganah etc were well trained units...

1948 is Israel's victory but more than that it is the Arab worlds loss...

Lol.

Why just 1948? Since then who has supported Israel with arms and political help in the UN?

Nobody can promise one people someone elses land .

I just told you the bombers and other planes came from western powers not to mention the mortars and other weapons when you lied they only came from Chezkh lol

 

[Yossarian]

Yet you don't seem to be able to counter anything?...

What i've said actually isn't even an actual defence of Israel...it's more the silly mantra that they only succeed through foreign support...it's actually more beneficial for you to look at the real reason which is that Arab leaders have always shown they prefer to work against each than together...

Hence even right now you have MBS working with Israel as is Sisi etc...point is it's easier to blame the likes of the US and Britain but in real terms it's never as straightforward as that...and in 1948 that certainly wasn't even the case...

The heroic Israeli position btw is that they beat 5 Arab armies that were intent on destroying them...I certainly haven't presented that argument...feel free to see if what i have said is in the IAM manual...

By and large I agree with you. (Did I write that!)
However, whilst at the time the direct support of the British, Americans et al wasn't there, don't underestimate all the support that the rich and powerful (of Jewish backgrounds) who own and/or control large swathes of media and financial institutions in these countries (and which in turn are the real organ grinders of the monkey politicians) bring to Israel, and even then brought to Israel.

 

[KingKhanWC]

His arguments are from the Israel Advocacy Movement(IAM) manual. Sounds like he's a volunteer. Their mission statement is to "counter the increasing hostility Israel suffers at the hands of the British public, caused by huge volumes disinformation circulated by Israel’s enemies. We intend to counter this bias with street level education."

I agree , sorry [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]. He sounds like one and his arguments are the same as the rest of them. They ignore facts and make up fabrications. He has stated Israel in 48 didnt get weapons from the western powers, this is a lie.

 

[shaz619]

I agree , sorry [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]. He sounds like one and his arguments are the same as the rest of them. They ignore facts and make up fabrications. He has stated Israel in 48 didnt get weapons from the western powers, this is a lie.

I don't agree with his argument but trust me he's not an IAM volunteer lol when it comes to politics his logic tends to stem from justifying a specific act based on how it benefits that party which is why the opposing view will never come to fruition because it's of no benefit to the interests of that party. Basically can apply that to every scenario from shaykh's POV. Obviously I get that and understand it to, but don't accept it.

 

[shaykh]

Lol.

Why just 1948? Since then who has supported Israel with arms and political help in the UN?

Nobody can promise one people someone elses land .

I just told you the bombers and other planes came from western powers not to mention the mortars and other weapons when you lied they only came from Chezkh lol

Source?...

Here's one on the Czechs...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_shipments_from_Czechoslovakia_to_Israel_1947–49

Like I said...the Western powers didn't support Israel in 1948...Britain actively opposed them...handed control over to the UN...and was against the Partition plan by this point and this was evidenced by their vote...

 

[shaykh]

By and large I agree with you. (Did I write that!)
However, whilst at the time the direct support of the British, Americans et al wasn't there, don't underestimate all the support that the rich and powerful (of Jewish backgrounds) who own and/or control large swathes of media and financial institutions in these countries (and which in turn are the real organ grinders of the monkey politicians) bring to Israel, and even then brought to Israel.

Of course Jewish money was very useful in garnering support...but as someone like yourself who is a bit more learned than KKWC on history...i'm sure you're well aware that the British were not fond of Jews by the end of the 30s...and preferred the likes of Jordan...their money got them into a position of support...but Arab prospects made them less important...and then the likes of the Haganah and the Irgun who fought them made things even worse...

The Jews were very good with their money in Palestine too in terms of buying support prior to 1948...

 

[shaykh]

Lol.

Why just 1948? Since then who has supported Israel with arms and political help in the UN?

Nobody can promise one people someone elses land .

I just told you the bombers and other planes came from western powers not to mention the mortars and other weapons when you lied they only came from Chezkh lol

Why did i choose 1948?...well you said Israel didn't get independence by itself...and you tried suggesting that the West armed them against the Arabs...

The Soviets armed them through the Czechs...there was an embargo...and the US told Ben-Gurion no...and the British as mentioned were anti-Israel at this point...

If you're going to call me a liar...then feel free to show evidence of that...

It's all too easy to blame America and Britain for everything...you can speak about American arms now...but in 1948?...like i said...your knowledge on most conflicts tends to be a few articles on a subject...feel free to actually pull out a book sometime...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Source?...

Here's one on the Czechs...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_shipments_from_Czechoslovakia_to_Israel_1947–49

Like I said...the Western powers didn't support Israel in 1948...Britain actively opposed them...handed control over to the UN...and was against the Partition plan by this point and this was evidenced by their vote...

https://www.ampalestine.org/palestine-101/history/zionism/zionism-us-haganah-s-arms-procurement

 

[shaz619]

I don't know about 1948 but Israel pioneered UAV technology at present, the USA's reluctance to share their product's created a market oppourtunity and now they are the world's biggest exporters of UAVs supplying around 60%. They just kept evolving from the surveillance vehicles in the late 60s and have heavily invested in their 'defence' industry which is why it's so developed. No doubt they must get help from allies but there's only so much you can utilise to the max without an infrastructure, plus everyone wants to know you're doing good...but not that you're doing better then them.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Why did i choose 1948?...well you said Israel didn't get independence by itself...and you tried suggesting that the West armed them against the Arabs...

The Soviets armed them through the Czechs...there was an embargo...and the US told Ben-Gurion no...and the British as mentioned were anti-Israel at this point...

If you're going to call me a liar...then feel free to show evidence of that...

It's all too easy to blame America and Britain for everything...you can speak about American arms now...but in 1948?...like i said...your knowledge on most conflicts tends to be a few articles on a subject...feel free to actually pull out a book sometime...

For arguments sake lets say I agree with 1948.

What about the rest of the time until now? Are you seriously going to deny the US has been the main backer of Israel with material, financial and political support?

 

[shaykh]

Another factor that is worth mentioning is the schisms that existed in terms of the nationalist movements...

Zionism had a lot of different ideologues...who differed with each other on certain aspects...eg the use of terror which the likes of Irgun did...yet when the 1948 war came...all of these guys fought alongside each other because they had the same objective...and that objective wasn't power for an individual but they were committed to creating their Jewish homeland...

Palestinian nationalism was fraught with all sort of divisions...with clans, families etc all trying to undermine each other...Husseini was a divisive figure for instance who called anyone who opposed him a traitor...you have the likes of Hasan Shukri who worked with the Jews to achieve their state...there wasn't nearly the unity in opposition or the unity in nationalist aspiration amongst the Palestinians as there was amongst the Jews...

And this isn't even getting into the discussion about the Arab states...

Again it's better to focus on why the Arabs failed...than why the Israelis won...

 

[shaykh]

For arguments sake lets say I agree with 1948.

What about the rest of the time until now? Are you seriously going to deny the US has been the main backer of Israel with material, financial and political support?

No arguments sake...you called me a liar...

So again produce a source showing that I lied about the Czechs...or a source that shows the Western powers armed Israel in 1948...then we can discuss other years...

This was your claim...that israel won in 1948 because of Western support...

Show it or at the very least apologise for calling me a liar...

 

[KingKhanWC]

No arguments sake...you called me a liar...

So again produce a source showing that I lied about the Czechs...or a source that shows the Western powers armed Israel in 1948...then we can discuss other years...

This was your claim...that israel won in 1948 because of Western support...

Show it or at the very least apologise for calling me a liar...

lol try reading the link I posted.

 

[Yossarian]

I don't know about 1948 but Israel pioneered UAV technology at present, the USA's reluctance to share their product's created a market oppourtunity and now they are the world's biggest exporters of UAVs supplying around 60%. They just kept evolving from the surveillance vehicles in the late 60s and have heavily invested in their 'defence' industry which is why it's so developed. No doubt they must get help from allies but there's only so much you can utilise to the max without an infrastructure, plus everyone wants to know you're doing good...but not that you're doing better then them.

No matter how good your sophisticated military product, you need a steady and reliable (preferably home) customer to buy it in large quantities in order to convince a foreign buyer that you and your expertise will be around for a long time so as to guarantee continued maintenance, support and spare parts. Whilst powerful, the Israeli military is simply not large enough so as to keep buying in such large numbers. Thats why you'll find that most of the large investors, as well as the main customer other than the Israeli Defence Forces themselves, are Americans and the American military.

 

[shaykh]

lol try reading the link I posted.

Did you read your own link?....

just weeks after the UN passed the partition resolution that in effect touched off the military confrontation in Palestine—President Truman invoked the Neutrality Act, imposing a unilateral embargo on weapons to both
sides in the Zionist-Arab conflict. From then on, exporting American arms to Palestine was illegal

What they did do was smuggle arms...that's what happens during an embargo...this is hardly the same as saying they were armed by a superpower...

Sonneborn group as such but told essentially the same story, putting the number of men at the center of the Haganah effort in the United States at “about forty Americans utterly devoted to the Jewish cause

They fronted as a charity and smuggled arms...

Are you claiming this was a US plot to help Israel because your source isn't saying that...the Haganah stole some arms off the British too...but the British weren't responsible for that...

Point is the Czechs with Soviet approval are the only nation that sold arms directly to Israel...

40 American Jews doesn't meet the definition of 'Western superpowers' arming Israel...

And again while useful this isn't why the Israelis won the war...

 

[Yossarian]

No arguments sake...you called me a liar...

So again produce a source showing that I lied about the Czechs...or a source that shows the Western powers armed Israel in 1948...then we can discuss other years...

This was your claim...that israel won in 1948 because of Western support...

Show it or at the very least apologise for calling me a liar...

You're right to some extent. However, you may also be partly wrong.

Yes, the Israelis bought much of the stuff from Czechoslovakia, including Czech Avia S-199s (essentially Czechoslovak-built Messerschmitt Bf 109s), but how did the Czech's manage to get hold of 60, yes sixty, British Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk IXEs to sell to the Israelis (even though the first one was built by the Israelis using spare parts, but 60?)

And where did the American C46's and C47's come from?

A variety of obsolete and surplus ex-World War II combat aircraft were quickly sourced by various means – both legal and illegal – to supplement this fleet. The backbone of the IAF consisted of 25 Avia S-199s (purchased from Czechoslovakia, essentially Czechoslovak-built Messerschmitt Bf 109s) and 60 Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk IXEs, the first of which, "Israel 1" was locally assembled from British abandoned spare parts and a salvaged engine from an Egyptian spitfire with most of the rest purchased from Czechoslovakia.[4

Similarly the Air Transport Command begun its existence as the Panamanian registered Lineos Aeros de Panama Society Anonyme or LAPSA acquired C-46 and C-47 aircraft.[5] Of the 607 IAF servicemen who served in the IAF during the War of Independence, over 414 of them were volunteers from overseas.[6]

wiki
(yes I know it's only wiki, but hey, who would make up something like this)

 

[KingKhanWC]

Did you read your own link?....



What they did do was smuggle arms...that's what happens during an embargo...this is hardly the same as saying they were armed by a superpower...



They fronted as a charity and smuggled arms...

Are you claiming this was a US plot to help Israel because your source isn't saying that...the Haganah stole some arms off the British too...but the British weren't responsible for that...

Point is the Czechs with Soviet approval are the only nation that sold arms directly to Israel...

40 American Jews doesn't meet the definition of 'Western superpowers' arming Israel...

And again while useful this isn't why the Israelis won the war...

Hillenkoetter cited evidence that Service Airways, Inc., a U.S. civil cargo airline, was utilizing military-surplus C-46 transport planes to carry arms from Czechoslovakia to Palestine. He was especially alarmed by reports that the American civilian crews flying the planes were illegally wearing U.S. Army Air Corps uniforms. Hillenkoetter complained that officials in Italy and Switzerland had apparently been misled, believing that the arms-smuggling flights were part of a sanctioned U.S. operation

US planes which had US pilots. Air power was a very important key here esp in 1948.

You can deny all you like.

Anyway arguing with a Zionist supporter, someone who is making excuses for occupation and apartheid isn't something I like to do as I have no respect for such people.

 

[ShadabFakhar]

Yet you don't seem to be able to counter anything?...

What i've said actually isn't even an actual defence of Israel...it's more the silly mantra that they only succeed through foreign support...it's actually more beneficial for you to look at the real reason which is that Arab leaders have always shown they prefer to work against each than together...

Hence even right now you have MBS working with Israel as is Sisi etc...point is it's easier to blame the likes of the US and Britain but in real terms it's never as straightforward as that...and in 1948 that certainly wasn't even the case...

The heroic Israeli position btw is that they beat 5 Arab armies that were intent on destroying them...I certainly haven't presented that argument...feel free to see if what i have said is in the IAM manual...

You're right about the Arab disunity and in-fighting but it's absolutely wrong to suggest the superpowers didn't help. The British Army created a vacuum and the Balfour Declaration pledged its support to a Jewish Homeland and was later included in the terms for the British Mandate of Palestine.

It's a common tactic by IAM volunteers to discount British help and influence in the creation of Israel, yet Britain's administrative work did far more damage than any support in arms could have done. You made it seem like Britain's help was coincidental and that they were actually assisting the Arabs, Britian just made it look like that to appease their Saudi allies who along with the Yishuv assisted them in overthrowing the Ottomans.

Forgive me if I haven't bothered to read all your posts in this thread, our discussion in the Good Price Supermarket thread has left a lot to be desired.

 

[ShadabFakhar]

Don't always agree with shaykh but calling him an IAM volunteer is pathetic, looks like some people are not allowed to have an opposing view.

I haven't called him an IAM volunteer, I said he "sounds like" one. IAM advocate Zionism and shaykh has pretty much admitted to being a Zionist sympathiser, these are just some of the parallels one can draw from his own words.

 

[shaykh]

You're right about the Arab disunity and in-fighting but it's absolutely wrong to suggest the superpowers didn't help. The British Army created a vacuum and the Balfour Declaration pledged its support to a Jewish Homeland and was later included in the terms for the British Mandate of Palestine.

It's a common tactic by IAM volunteers to discount British help and influence in the creation of Israel, yet Britain's administrative work did far more damage than any support in arms could have done. You made it seem like Britain's help was coincidental and that they were actually assisting the Arabs, Britian just made it look like that to appease their Saudi allies who along with the Yishuv assisted them in overthrowing the Ottomans.

Forgive me if I haven't bothered to read all your posts in this thread, our discussion in the Good Price Supermarket thread has left a lot to be desired.

Lol did I read that right?...the Jews plotted to overthrow the Ottomans? ...

I guess 1939-1948 when the British sent over troops to fight the Haganah were times of support?...

The White Paper etc?...

I won't bother with a longer reply...anyone with a basic understanding of that period knows that support for Israel was certainly not from the British...

 

[ShadabFakhar]

Lol did I read that right?...the Jews plotted to overthrow the Ottomans? ...

I guess 1939-1948 when the British sent over troops to fight the Haganah were times of support?...

The White Paper etc?...

I won't bother with a longer reply...anyone with a basic understanding of that period knows that support for Israel was certainly not from the British...

Yes, you read that right. Ever heard of the Nili spy network?

Why are you going so far ahead? Why overlook 1917 or 1935 where the jewish population from the Aliyahs rose to 27 per cent from just 9 per cent 15 years earlier.

The greatest damage had already been done by the time The White Papers came into being.

Don't bother with any reply. You've shown on a number of occasions how you overlook important facts to suit your narrative. It's back to that obtuseness we talked about earlier today.

 

[Varun]

The British Empire gave them the land and the American Empire has been protecting them. Without the Christians and superpowers of the west, the Jews couldn't take a brick from the holy land.

I dont know where people get the deluded idea 15m Jews can do all this alone.

It's about time Muslim nations' armies marched in and took over this mosque rather than waiting for decades on end for one superpower or another to supposedly lose interest in Israel - one of the most strategic and advanced countries to have on your roster of allies.

But no. They seem to hate the Iranians more than the Israelis, so there.

 

[shaykh]

Yes, you read that right. Ever heard of the Nili spy network?

Why are you going so far ahead? Why overlook 1917 or 1935 where the jewish population from the Aliyahs rose to 27 per cent from just 9 per cent 15 years earlier.

The greatest damage had already been done by the time The White Papers came into being.

Don't bother with any reply. You've shown on a number of occasions how you overlook important facts to suit your narrative. It's back to that obtuseness we talked about earlier today.

If you read my posts which you haven't then I have dealt with the 30 year period...now i'm having to repeat...

Aliyah was also frequent prior to the Balfour declaration under the Ottomans...the British allowed it and then they restricted it...

The offered the Jordanians a significantly larger portion of Palestine...the original parameters for Israel were significantly larger...but the British reneged on that promise...

The British did support the idea of a Jewish home and then they sided with the Arabs instead afterwards...which is fine...this isn't a criticism...they decided where their interests lied...and it was more productive to support the Arabs...

The whole of the period following the White Paper was fighting Jewish terror groups...

The idea that the British had a consistent policy regarding the creation of Israel is a myth...

And it's just an unproductive way of looking at things even if you are a Palestinian supporter...because it wasn't the British who got the Israelis their state...

The most help they had from a foreign power was the Soviet Union...

 

[Yossarian]

It's about time Muslim nations' armies marched in and took over this mosque rather than waiting for decades on end for one superpower or another to supposedly lose interest in Israel - one of the most strategic and advanced countries to have on your roster of allies.

But no. They seem to hate the Iranians more than the Israelis, so there.

If one was to stop seeing Sunnis and Shias as being two branches of the same religion, but regard them as if they were two separate religions with common roots (just like Christianity, Judaism and Islam are regarded in relation to each other), ie effectively see the Arbrahamic religions as being four separate religions consisting of Sunnis, Shias, Christians and Jews, then the whole of the Middle East takes on a different perspective.

 

[Varun]

If one was to stop seeing Sunnis and Shias as being two branches of the same religion, but regard them as if they were two separate religions with common roots (just like Christianity, Judaism and Islam are regarded in relation to each other), ie effectively see the Arbrahamic religions as being four separate religions consisting of Sunnis, Shias, Christians and Jews, then the whole of the Middle East takes on a different perspective.

Redundant in this context, since the al-Aqsa mosque is equally important to both Shias and Sunnis alike.

 

[Yossarian]

Redundant in this context, since the al-Aqsa mosque is equally important to both Shias and Sunnis alike.

The site overall (The Old City) is equally important to Muslims, Christians and Jews. My point still stands.

 

[shaykh]

Hezbollah kinda complicate this equation of Sunnis V Shias on Palestine ...if anything it's the Shias who have been significantly more helpful to the Palestinians ...

It's one thing I've never asked a Shia come to think of it ...one of the things which gives Sunni Muslims ownership of Jerusalem in their eyes is the Pact of Omar ...

Is it something the Shias recognise?...

 

[Thomaskutty]

If the Muslims rise up against their own dictator rulers over this, it won't because of the Palestinians rights taken away, but because of the long term implications over Bayt al-Maqdis.

It is sad that you look down on your co-religionists as apocalyptic , monolithic beings who only see black and white. Fundamentalists aside , majority of muslims are not going to 'rise up' , whatever that means , against arab leaders because nothing has happened to Bayt al-Maqdis. I give them more credit - many might protest Trump's decision and hold rallies , but most will feel bummed and then move on with their everyday lives.
The reasonable ones will concede that this is an area that has multi-faith significance & muslims will still get to pray at their holy mosques , so no biggie. Israel's immediate neighbouring rulers are content with that ..

The only part that the Palestinians will play will be to act as a catalyst by getting these Muslim masses into believing that the future of Bayt al-Maqdis is at stake.
But the aforementioned ignorant posters won't see that because this is too deep for them, it doesn't fit in with their soundbite sauces of news.

Palestinian leaders have been misleading the larger muslim world into believing that their holy sites are in imminent jeopardy , when that is not even close to reality ... the Temple Mount has always been managed by an islamic trust since God knows when. This ruse should be called out

 

[Thomaskutty]

Muslims and Christians also see it as the holy land. You are clueless and your logic is if they claim to be theirs , it is lol.

Clueless about what ? I think you have comprehension problems .. read my post again.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Clueless about what ? I think you have comprehension problems .. read my post again.

It was cringe the first time round thanks.

According to you because the Jews believe it to be theirs, it is?

 

[Yossarian]

It is sad that you look down on your co-religionists as apocalyptic , monolithic beings who only see black and white. Fundamentalists aside , majority of muslims are not going to 'rise up' , whatever that means , against arab leaders because nothing has happened to Bayt al-Maqdis. I give them more credit - many might protest Trump's decision and hold rallies , but most will feel bummed and then move on with their everyday lives.
The reasonable ones will concede that this is an area that has multi-faith significance & muslims will still get to pray at their holy mosques , so no biggie. Israel's immediate neighbouring rulers are content with that ..





Palestinian leaders have been misleading the larger muslim world into believing that their holy sites are in imminent jeopardy , when that is not even close to reality ... the Temple Mount has always been managed by an islamic trust since God knows when. This ruse should be called out

Problem with the likes of you is that you assume you know more about the Muslim psyche than Muslims themselves. And you know the old saying about those who assume .....

 

[ManFan]

It was cringe the first time round thanks.

According to you because the Jews believe it to be theirs, it is?

If that is the logic, than Andalusia belongs to Muslims.

 

[Majestic_Inzi]

Shame on two muslim nations, Saudi Arabia and Egypt who only sent ministers to this meeting at OIC summit in Istanbul.

Disgraceful behaviour

 

[Thomaskutty]

It was cringe the first time round thanks.

According to you because the Jews believe it to be theirs, it is?

It is holy land and important to all 3 religions but not to the same extent. Jerusalem is unique in religious and political importance to Jews.

Jerusalem has countless mentions in jewish religious scripture , is the historic capital of the only jewish homeland , also the region where almost all of the old testament's stories occur and is referenced in their messianic prophecies.

For muslims , it is subordinate to more important places like Mecca/Medina where your prophet lived his life and has more important mosques. Quran itself has zero or vague references to it.

For christians , it is important to the extent that is it was the backdrop to the events in Jesus life. Otherwise, it has become mostly a tourist and pilgrim site. Given the hundreds of denominations , people are more worried about their interpretations of the bible than Jerusalem. So , you bringing it up was irrelevant.

 

[Thomaskutty]

Problem with the likes of you is that you assume you know more about the Muslim psyche than Muslims themselves. And you know the old saying about those who assume .....

muslim psyche ?! You sound like the spokesperson for a billion people. Anyway .. what is your objection personally as a muslim, to the current status of the 'Bayt al-Maqdis' in Jerusalem ?

 

[Abdullah719]

Quran itself has zero or vague references to it.

It is literally mentioned by name.

Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing. (Qur'an 17:1)

 

[Yossarian]

muslim psyche ?! You sound like the spokesperson for a billion people. Anyway .. what is your objection personally as a muslim, to the current status of the 'Bayt al-Maqdis' in Jerusalem ?

Assumptions again. I'll leave you to work that one out considering you make so many.