Yossarian
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It's ok. No need to correct him. He's an expert at making assumptions on topics he vaguely know about.
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Contact the PP Team
Actions of Israeli forces in the occupied territories
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Abdullah719
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China calls for independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital
China has officially stated that it supports the establishment of an independent state of Palestine based on pre-1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital.
"China understands the concerns of Islamic countries on the status of Jerusalem, supports the resolution of the status of Jerusalem in accordance with the relevant United Nations resolutions and international consensus," Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Lu Kang said.
He made the remarks during his regular press briefing in Beijing while responding to a question about the adoption of a joint statement by the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) calling on the international community to recognise East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital.
He said he hoped the negotiations between Palestine and Israel would resume at an early date so as to promote a comprehensive, just and lasting solution to the Palestine issue.
United States President Donald Trump's decision to shift US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem has sparked a strong response from within Palestine as well as Muslim countries.
The OIC on Wednesday declared East Jerusalem as the capital of the state of Palestine and invited all countries to recognise the state of Palestine and East Jerusalem as its capital.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1376772/c...nian-state-with-east-jerusalem-as-its-capital
China has officially stated that it supports the establishment of an independent state of Palestine based on pre-1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital.
"China understands the concerns of Islamic countries on the status of Jerusalem, supports the resolution of the status of Jerusalem in accordance with the relevant United Nations resolutions and international consensus," Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Lu Kang said.
He made the remarks during his regular press briefing in Beijing while responding to a question about the adoption of a joint statement by the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) calling on the international community to recognise East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital.
He said he hoped the negotiations between Palestine and Israel would resume at an early date so as to promote a comprehensive, just and lasting solution to the Palestine issue.
United States President Donald Trump's decision to shift US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem has sparked a strong response from within Palestine as well as Muslim countries.
The OIC on Wednesday declared East Jerusalem as the capital of the state of Palestine and invited all countries to recognise the state of Palestine and East Jerusalem as its capital.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1376772/c...nian-state-with-east-jerusalem-as-its-capital
Abdullah719
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US outnumbered 14 to 1 as it vetoes UN vote on status of Jerusalem
A UN security council resolution calling for the withdrawal of Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital has been backed by every council member except the US, which used its veto.
The unanimity of the rest of the council was a stark rebuke to the Trump administration over its unilateral move earlier this month, which upended decades of international consensus.
The Egyptian-drafted resolution did not specifically mention the US or Trump but expressed “deep regret at recent decisions concerning the status of Jerusalem”.
A spokesman for the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, responded to the veto by saying it was “unacceptable and threatens the stability of the international community because it disrespects it”.
The UK and France had indicated in advance that they would would back the text, which demanded that all countries comply with pre-existing UNSC resolutions on Jerusalem, dating back to 1967, including requirements that the city’s final status be decided in direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.
The resolution was denounced in furious language by the US ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, who described it as “an insult” that would not be forgotten. “The United States will not be told by any country where we can put our embassy,” she said.
“It’s scandalous to say we are putting back peace efforts,” she added. “The fact that this veto is being done in defence of American sovereignty and in defence of America’s role in the Middle East peace process is not a source of embarrassment for us; it should be an embarrassment to the remainder of the security council.”
The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, tweeted: “Thank you, Ambassador Haley. On Hanukkah, you spoke like a Maccabi. You lit a candle of truth. You dispel the darkness. One defeated the many. Truth defeated lies. Thank you, President Trump.”
The tabling of the resolution followed a weekend of negotiations aimed at securing the widest consensus possible on the issue. The vote has underlined once again the widespread international opposition to the US move, even among some of its closest allies.
It came ahead of a planned trip by the US vice-president, Mike Pence, to Jerusalem on Wednesday that was set to take place amid a deep rupture in US-Palestinian relations.
However, Pence announced on Monday night that he was postponing the trip until February, citing the imminent congressional votes on tax reform, set to take place in the House and Senate starting on Tuesday. “The vice-president is committed to seeing the tax cut through to the finish line,” his spokeswoman said.
The Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah party has called for a day of demonstrations in the occupied Palestinian territories to coincide with the Pence trip.
Palestinian officials had warned that in the event of a US veto on the security council, they would also seek a resolution at the general assembly.
The push for a vote – which came in the knowledge that the US would use its veto – followed Trump’s decision to upend decades of policy by declaring that the US recognises Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and that he plans to move its embassy there.
Speaking before the vote, the UK’s ambassador to the UN, Matthew Rycroft, said the text was in line with London’s position on Jerusalem as an issue that must be resolved through negotiations.
In an apparent rejection of the authority of the security council, Israel’s ambassador to the UN, Danny Dann, said ahead of the vote: “Members of the council can vote again and again — for a hundred more times. It won’t change the simple fact that Jerusalem is, has been, and always will be the capital of Israel.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...1-as-it-vetoes-un-vote-on-status-of-jerusalem
A UN security council resolution calling for the withdrawal of Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital has been backed by every council member except the US, which used its veto.
The unanimity of the rest of the council was a stark rebuke to the Trump administration over its unilateral move earlier this month, which upended decades of international consensus.
The Egyptian-drafted resolution did not specifically mention the US or Trump but expressed “deep regret at recent decisions concerning the status of Jerusalem”.
A spokesman for the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, responded to the veto by saying it was “unacceptable and threatens the stability of the international community because it disrespects it”.
The UK and France had indicated in advance that they would would back the text, which demanded that all countries comply with pre-existing UNSC resolutions on Jerusalem, dating back to 1967, including requirements that the city’s final status be decided in direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.
The resolution was denounced in furious language by the US ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, who described it as “an insult” that would not be forgotten. “The United States will not be told by any country where we can put our embassy,” she said.
“It’s scandalous to say we are putting back peace efforts,” she added. “The fact that this veto is being done in defence of American sovereignty and in defence of America’s role in the Middle East peace process is not a source of embarrassment for us; it should be an embarrassment to the remainder of the security council.”
The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, tweeted: “Thank you, Ambassador Haley. On Hanukkah, you spoke like a Maccabi. You lit a candle of truth. You dispel the darkness. One defeated the many. Truth defeated lies. Thank you, President Trump.”
The tabling of the resolution followed a weekend of negotiations aimed at securing the widest consensus possible on the issue. The vote has underlined once again the widespread international opposition to the US move, even among some of its closest allies.
It came ahead of a planned trip by the US vice-president, Mike Pence, to Jerusalem on Wednesday that was set to take place amid a deep rupture in US-Palestinian relations.
However, Pence announced on Monday night that he was postponing the trip until February, citing the imminent congressional votes on tax reform, set to take place in the House and Senate starting on Tuesday. “The vice-president is committed to seeing the tax cut through to the finish line,” his spokeswoman said.
The Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah party has called for a day of demonstrations in the occupied Palestinian territories to coincide with the Pence trip.
Palestinian officials had warned that in the event of a US veto on the security council, they would also seek a resolution at the general assembly.
The push for a vote – which came in the knowledge that the US would use its veto – followed Trump’s decision to upend decades of policy by declaring that the US recognises Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and that he plans to move its embassy there.
Speaking before the vote, the UK’s ambassador to the UN, Matthew Rycroft, said the text was in line with London’s position on Jerusalem as an issue that must be resolved through negotiations.
In an apparent rejection of the authority of the security council, Israel’s ambassador to the UN, Danny Dann, said ahead of the vote: “Members of the council can vote again and again — for a hundred more times. It won’t change the simple fact that Jerusalem is, has been, and always will be the capital of Israel.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...1-as-it-vetoes-un-vote-on-status-of-jerusalem
Abdullah719
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">At the UN we're always asked to do more & give more. So, when we make a decision, at the will of the American ppl, abt where to locate OUR embassy, we don't expect those we've helped to target us. On Thurs there'll be a vote criticizing our choice. The US will be taking names. <a href="https://t.co/ZsusB8Hqt4">pic.twitter.com/ZsusB8Hqt4</a></p>— Nikki Haley (@nikkihaley) <a href="https://twitter.com/nikkihaley/status/943241599953309696?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 19, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
The UN isn't even remotely impartial as an organisation ...so anyone defending their rulings is frankly letting their biases rule here ...
Yes the US looks after Israel ...and the UN represents the Arab position ...
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and has been for a hell of a long time ...
Just the revealing of that fact by the Americans has angered the Arabs who feel it legitimizes Israel's existence ...
It's not settlements, it's not 1967 borders that are the issue here ...and the post Trump statements have been a further illustration of that ...
The Arabs will never have all of Jerusalem as they want ...they are weaker than they have ever been yet make the same demands ...
It's power politics and this notion that Israel will compromise with organisations who disagree with their very existence is naive ...
Yes the US looks after Israel ...and the UN represents the Arab position ...
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and has been for a hell of a long time ...
Just the revealing of that fact by the Americans has angered the Arabs who feel it legitimizes Israel's existence ...
It's not settlements, it's not 1967 borders that are the issue here ...and the post Trump statements have been a further illustration of that ...
The Arabs will never have all of Jerusalem as they want ...they are weaker than they have ever been yet make the same demands ...
It's power politics and this notion that Israel will compromise with organisations who disagree with their very existence is naive ...
KingKhanWC
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According to who, you and your boy Netanyahooo.com ?
According to anyone who is Israeli...it always has been the capital to them...they didn't need Trump to state what is obvious to them...the Knesset has always been there...so has the PM, the Supreme Court etc...and it's what they have declared as their capital...
Nothing Netanyahu about it...it's not a right wing view...it's just a simple reality...the Arabs lost the war...Israel was established and they declared Jerusalem as their capital...it's a sovereign state...and they have chosen a capital...whether you accept their existence or not...which i know you don't...denying that Jerusalem is their capital is simply denying reality...
KingKhanWC
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lol. According to Israeli's the west bank, Gaza and other parts of other nations belongs to them, according to their holy book.
Nice logic, anyone who claims anything, it belongs to them even if its from a book littered with errors. Ironic an agnostic is backing up this logic.
Actually its got nothing to do with a Holy Book...it's the fact that Israel exists as a sovereign state and has since 1948 when it won the war and declared Jerusalem it's capital...
What is a capital city?...and who decides it?...
The executive, legislature and judiciary are based in Jerusalem...all sovereign states get to choose their capitals...and that's what Israel is...
It's your logic that is flawed...
Majestic_Inzi
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Interesting, the american administration are losing their marbles, Trump has threatened to cut funds to the UN and Nikki Haley has sent memos to countries ambassador to let them know they are watching them.
Disgraceful, so the law goes out of the window.
Disgraceful, so the law goes out of the window.
Majestic_Inzi
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Ask a Palestinian and you will get another answer, you only got UN recognition in 1947 so abide by the terms, stop the colonisation of Palestinian land.
KingKhanWC
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Certainly not Zionists.
East Jerusalem does not belong to Israel according to International law. How can you and your Zionist buddies claim this to be part of their capital?
Your logic is flowing nicely, carry on.
Here's the thing...are you honestly gonna say these laws are applied equally?...
So in 2016 510 Yemeni children were killed by Saudis during their invasion...all the UN did was mention that Saudi had violated childrens rights...and lo and behold the Saudis threatened to remove funding...the UN removed Saudi from their report...
The US are not the first nor the last to threaten to withdraw funding...it's what makes the UN such a pointless organisation...
Do tell how many UN resolutions there were on Darfur and Sri Lanka?...
Again laws and resolutions are not applied evenly and the UN isn't remotely credible...so 'law going out of the window'...this is presuming it was ever worth discussing in the first place...
They didn't...and Trump didn't say that either...but let me ask you...are you happy to call Jerusalem pre-1967 (which was the Western part) the capital of Israel...those who believe in a two state solution or sharing the capital also call Jerusalem the capital of Israel...that btw have never been up for discussion....
And your Hamas and PA brothers said nothing about Eastern Jerusalem...they said ALL of Jerusalem is theirs...do you share that position...thing is Israel won the war and set up it's state...it is whether you like it or not a sovereign state...and for 70 years has declared Jerusalem it's capital...what defines Jerusalem is up for debate...but stating that Tel-Aviv is the capital has no logic at all...
KingKhanWC
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I have no problem with West Jerusalem being Israels capital and the East being the capital of Palestine in any final two state solution.
Stick to telling me what your Zionist heros state as Hamas this year said they accepted the pre 1967 borders in a peace deal.
It's the Zionist occupiers who will never be happy with East Jerusalem not being theirs.
Do you know why? Lets see how much you know of your brethren.
The Israelis have the upper hand so yeh they will expand...and have done in areas of the West Bank...
Point is back when the Jews were weak...the Arabs refused to share and lost...yet they seem to believe they should get EVERYTHING back after losing...
Hamas has never ever been serious about peace...and frankly neither are the Israelis...the ship has sailed...it's easy to make claims you don't have to keep...such as we will recognise pre-1967 borders...but also demand right of return which of course you know Israel will never agree to...it's PR...as a boxing fan you should know this...lol Hamas said they will accept 1967 borders but refuse to recognise Israel...hopefully someone can make sense of that ridiculous paradox...
And as for your comments about Eastern Jerusalem...Israel under Netanyahu has stated there will be no deal on dividing Jerusalem...that's not being denied...but that option has certainly been available in the past...and was available during the initial partition deal in particular where the Arabs went to war and lost...and has been available many times since...
Trump didn't state Jerusalem in it's entirety was the Israeli capital...the backlash is down to the fact that Jerusalem any part of it...is being legitimised as being Israel...Hamas and the PA responded as per usual by stating ALL of Jerusalem is Palestinian...and in fact ALL of Israel is too...that's the true position coming out...
As for occupied land...occupied from who exactly?...from what I know only states can be occupied...Jerusalem was never under Palestinian control for it to even be occupied...Ottoman, British Mandate, Jordan, Israel...are all these occupations or only 2 and 4?...the Israelis took away what the Jordanians had...not the Palestinians...
KingKhanWC
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Yawn...
It's occupied under International law, go check what it says.
There is no point arguing about this....as I agree Jerusalems fate is decided through warfare not diplomacy.
And I also have no desire to debate with a Zionist supporter, the same as I would have no desire to debate with a fascist.
Just do me favour, next time you visit your holy land, tell your brethren to look up to the Temple Mount.. Even with all their power and support from the most powerful nations...what do they see there? Where is their Temple? Why haven't they built it yet? If Jerusalem is theirs , then show some real courage and build your messianic temple.
Give it 100 or more years, sooner or later the Israel tenure will be a part of history, the Crusaders know this well. Until then, keep looking at the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa while dreaming about your temple which will never be built no matter.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yawn...
It's occupied under International law, go check what it says.
There is no point arguing about this....as I agree Jerusalems fate is decided through warfare not diplomacy.
And I also have no desire to debate with a Zionist supporter, the same as I would have no desire to debate with a fascist.
Just do me favour, next time you visit your holy land, tell your brethren to look up to the Temple Mount.. Even with all their power and support from the most powerful nations...what do they see there? Where is their Temple? Why haven't they built it yet? If Jerusalem is theirs , then show some real courage and build your messianic temple.
Give it 100 or more years, sooner or later the Israel tenure will be a part of history, the Crusaders know this well. Until then, keep looking at the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa while dreaming about your temple which will never be built no matter. F Israel.
Lol...you keep missing the point...what defines a capital state isn't a moral question...it's a factual one...
The Argentinians claim the Falklands/Las Malvinas is theirs...they believe Britain occupy it...the UK vetoed a resolution on it unsurprisingly...
Lets say the Argentinians decided to call that their capital...it would be considered absurd because they don't have sovereign control of it...if Britain wanted to change it's capital to Stanley it can because it is a British territory...
You're making moral arguments when the discussion is a factual one...on the maps in Argentina Las Malvinas is part of Argentina lol...
Anyway as for your Temple rant...considering Jews are arrested for even trying to pray at the Temple Mount...there is very little desire to build that Temple except among fringe elements...
For someone who constantly states they refuse to debate you do like to debate
...
Yossarian
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The sad thing is that 74 years after millions of Jews were murdered in the Holocaust, and virtually all of the Western world, including much of the Muslim world, were sympathetic to the plight of the Jews due to the horrors committed on them by the Nazis, now virtually all of the nations of the world, other than the USA, a few pacific island nation states who doesnt even know where Israel is but vote to please the USA, and now those who will be strong armed by the USA, the whole world (ie member states of the UN) are ranged against Israel. How has it come to that?
As I stated in another thread, within a space of 74 years, the world has turned from being sympathetic to the Jewish people due to the Holocaust, to being anti-Israel (and by extension, anti-Zionist). Sadly, the perception of modern Israelis (and by extension, wrongly, of Jews) is slowly but surely obliterating the memories of the sufferings of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis. Imagine what it will be like in another 74 years. And sadly the Israelis can't see that.
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And now for his masterpiece....
Donald Trump has threatened to withhold “billions” of dollars of US aid from countries which vote in favour of a United Nations resolution rejecting the US president’s recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
His comments came after the US ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, wrote to about 180 of 193 member states warning that she will be “taking names” of countries that vote for a general assembly resolution on Thursday critical of the announcement which overturned decades of US foreign policy.
Speaking at a cabinet meeting on Wednesday, Trump amplified Haley’s threat.
“Let them vote against us,” he said.
“We’ll save a lot. We don’t care. But this isn’t like it used to be where they could vote against you and then you pay them hundreds of millions of dollars,” he said. “We’re not going to be taken advantage of any longer.”
The warning appeared aimed largely at UN members in Africa, Asia and Latin America who are regarded as more vulnerable to US pressure.
Egypt, which drafted Monday’s UN security council resolution which the US vetoed, is particularly vulnerable, receiving $1.2bn in US aid last year.
But Trump’s comments may also resonate elsewhere – including in the UK, which is hoping to negotiate a quick post-Brexit trade deal with Washington.
The emergency UN general assembly meeting was called for Thursday to protest against the US veto at Monday’s security council meeting on a resolution to the Jerusalem issue – which was supported by all other 14 members.
The security council resolution demanded that all countries comply with pre-existing UN security council resolutions on Jerusalem, dating back to 1967, including requirements that the city’s final status be decided in direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.
Key US allies Britain, France, Italy, Japan and Ukraine were among the 14 countries in the 15-member council that voted in favour on Monday, and were expected to do the same at the assembly on Thursday.
Diplomats expect strong support for the resolution, which is non-binding, despite the US pressure to either abstain or vote against it. However, a council diplomat said Canada, Hungary and the Czech Republic might bow to US pressure and not support the draft resolution.
Critics point out the the Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem – as well as the US veto – are both in opposition to numerous security council resolutions.
Trump’s extraordinary intervention marked the latest escalation of diplomatic tensions over a decision that has seen the US widely criticised and isolated. It came after a day of high drama.
In a letter to UN ambassadors, Haley told countries – including European delegations – that she will report back to the US president with the names of those who support a draft resolution rejecting the US move at the UN general assembly on Thursday, adding that Trump took the issue personally.
The new draft resolution for Thursday’s general assembly is very similar to Monday’s defeated security council resolution. Unlike the security council, however, where permanent members can wield a veto, there are no veto rights in the general assembly.
The resolution reaffirms 10 security council resolutions on Jerusalem, dating back to 1967, including requirements that the city’s final status must be decided in direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.
It “affirms that any decisions and actions which purport to have altered, the character, status or demographic composition of the holy city of Jerusalem have no legal effect, are null and void and must be rescinded”.
The draft resolution “demands that all states comply with Security Council resolutions regarding the holy city of Jerusalem, and not to recognize any actions or measures contrary to those resolutions”.
Referring to Haley’s letter, which was disclosed by the Guardian and other media organisations on Wednesday morning, Trump said: “I like the message that Nikki sent yesterday at the United Nations.
“Our great citizens who love this country are tired of this country being taken advantage of – we’re not going to be taken advantage of any longer.”
In her letter, Haley wrote: “As you consider your vote, I encourage you to know the president and the US take this vote personally.
“The president will be watching this vote carefully and has requested I report back on those who voted against us,” she continued.
Haley followed the letter by tweeting: “At the UN we’re always asked to do more & give more. So, when we make a decision, at the will of the American ppl, abt where to locate OUR embassy, we don’t expect those we’ve helped to target us. On Thurs there’ll be a vote criticizing our choice. The US will be taking names.”
Responding to the US threats, the Palestinian foreign minister, Riyad al-Maliki, and the foreign minister of Turkey – a co-sponsor of the UN vote – Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu told reporters at Istanbul’s Atatürk airport that they believed UN member countries will ignore “pressure” from Haley.
“No honourable state would bow to such pressure,” Çavuşoğlu said.
“The world has changed. The belief that ‘I am strong therefore I am right’ has changed. The world today is revolting against injustices.”
A senior diplomat from a Muslim country said of Haley’s letter: “States resort to such blatant bullying only when they know they do not have a moral or legal argument to convince others.”
A senior western diplomat, described it as “poor tactics” at the United Nations “but pretty good for Haley 2020 or Haley 2024”, referring to speculation that Haley might run for higher office.
“She’s not going to win any votes in the general assembly or the security council, but she is going to win some votes in the US population,” the western diplomat said.
A senior European diplomat agreed Haley was unlikely to sway many UN states.
“We are missing some leadership here from the US and this type of letter is definitely not helping to establish US leadership in the Middle East peace process,” the diplomat said.
The tabling of the resolution followed a weekend of negotiations aimed at securing the widest consensus possible on the issue. The vote has underlined once again the widespread international opposition to the US move, even among some of its closest allies.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/20/donald-trump-threat-cut-aid-un-jerusalem-vote
Donald Trump has threatened to withhold “billions” of dollars of US aid from countries which vote in favour of a United Nations resolution rejecting the US president’s recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
His comments came after the US ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, wrote to about 180 of 193 member states warning that she will be “taking names” of countries that vote for a general assembly resolution on Thursday critical of the announcement which overturned decades of US foreign policy.
Speaking at a cabinet meeting on Wednesday, Trump amplified Haley’s threat.
“Let them vote against us,” he said.
“We’ll save a lot. We don’t care. But this isn’t like it used to be where they could vote against you and then you pay them hundreds of millions of dollars,” he said. “We’re not going to be taken advantage of any longer.”
The warning appeared aimed largely at UN members in Africa, Asia and Latin America who are regarded as more vulnerable to US pressure.
Egypt, which drafted Monday’s UN security council resolution which the US vetoed, is particularly vulnerable, receiving $1.2bn in US aid last year.
But Trump’s comments may also resonate elsewhere – including in the UK, which is hoping to negotiate a quick post-Brexit trade deal with Washington.
The emergency UN general assembly meeting was called for Thursday to protest against the US veto at Monday’s security council meeting on a resolution to the Jerusalem issue – which was supported by all other 14 members.
The security council resolution demanded that all countries comply with pre-existing UN security council resolutions on Jerusalem, dating back to 1967, including requirements that the city’s final status be decided in direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.
Key US allies Britain, France, Italy, Japan and Ukraine were among the 14 countries in the 15-member council that voted in favour on Monday, and were expected to do the same at the assembly on Thursday.
Diplomats expect strong support for the resolution, which is non-binding, despite the US pressure to either abstain or vote against it. However, a council diplomat said Canada, Hungary and the Czech Republic might bow to US pressure and not support the draft resolution.
Critics point out the the Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem – as well as the US veto – are both in opposition to numerous security council resolutions.
Trump’s extraordinary intervention marked the latest escalation of diplomatic tensions over a decision that has seen the US widely criticised and isolated. It came after a day of high drama.
In a letter to UN ambassadors, Haley told countries – including European delegations – that she will report back to the US president with the names of those who support a draft resolution rejecting the US move at the UN general assembly on Thursday, adding that Trump took the issue personally.
The new draft resolution for Thursday’s general assembly is very similar to Monday’s defeated security council resolution. Unlike the security council, however, where permanent members can wield a veto, there are no veto rights in the general assembly.
The resolution reaffirms 10 security council resolutions on Jerusalem, dating back to 1967, including requirements that the city’s final status must be decided in direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.
It “affirms that any decisions and actions which purport to have altered, the character, status or demographic composition of the holy city of Jerusalem have no legal effect, are null and void and must be rescinded”.
The draft resolution “demands that all states comply with Security Council resolutions regarding the holy city of Jerusalem, and not to recognize any actions or measures contrary to those resolutions”.
Referring to Haley’s letter, which was disclosed by the Guardian and other media organisations on Wednesday morning, Trump said: “I like the message that Nikki sent yesterday at the United Nations.
“Our great citizens who love this country are tired of this country being taken advantage of – we’re not going to be taken advantage of any longer.”
In her letter, Haley wrote: “As you consider your vote, I encourage you to know the president and the US take this vote personally.
“The president will be watching this vote carefully and has requested I report back on those who voted against us,” she continued.
Haley followed the letter by tweeting: “At the UN we’re always asked to do more & give more. So, when we make a decision, at the will of the American ppl, abt where to locate OUR embassy, we don’t expect those we’ve helped to target us. On Thurs there’ll be a vote criticizing our choice. The US will be taking names.”
Responding to the US threats, the Palestinian foreign minister, Riyad al-Maliki, and the foreign minister of Turkey – a co-sponsor of the UN vote – Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu told reporters at Istanbul’s Atatürk airport that they believed UN member countries will ignore “pressure” from Haley.
“No honourable state would bow to such pressure,” Çavuşoğlu said.
“The world has changed. The belief that ‘I am strong therefore I am right’ has changed. The world today is revolting against injustices.”
A senior diplomat from a Muslim country said of Haley’s letter: “States resort to such blatant bullying only when they know they do not have a moral or legal argument to convince others.”
A senior western diplomat, described it as “poor tactics” at the United Nations “but pretty good for Haley 2020 or Haley 2024”, referring to speculation that Haley might run for higher office.
“She’s not going to win any votes in the general assembly or the security council, but she is going to win some votes in the US population,” the western diplomat said.
A senior European diplomat agreed Haley was unlikely to sway many UN states.
“We are missing some leadership here from the US and this type of letter is definitely not helping to establish US leadership in the Middle East peace process,” the diplomat said.
The tabling of the resolution followed a weekend of negotiations aimed at securing the widest consensus possible on the issue. The vote has underlined once again the widespread international opposition to the US move, even among some of its closest allies.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/20/donald-trump-threat-cut-aid-un-jerusalem-vote
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As I mentioned ask the Argentinians about the Falklands...it's Las Malvinas on their map...
Are Israel a sovereign country?
Do sovereign countries get to choose their capitals?
Israel is sovereign and has control of Jerusalem...the Western part since the war of Independence...and they took the Eastern part off the Jordanians not the Palestinians in 1967...
As for abiding by UN terms...do tell me what the Arab nations thought of the Partition Plan...
Again the argument about what is a capital or isn't...isn't a moral discussion...it's a factual one...the PM sits in Jerusalem, so does the supreme court etc...
Palestinians don't and have never had a state...Israel currently do...
KingKhanWC
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The UN General Assembly votes for 128, against 9, 35 abstentions to oppose US Government recognition of Jerusalem as Israeli Capital.
Good to see the UK oppose the US here.
It's a shame Canada bottled it and abstained.
But we can see the majority of the world will not recognise Jerusalem as the Zionist capital. A strong message to the terror state.
Good to see the UK oppose the US here.
It's a shame Canada bottled it and abstained.
But we can see the majority of the world will not recognise Jerusalem as the Zionist capital. A strong message to the terror state.
Majestic_Inzi
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21 countries bottled it and failed to show.
I think it was disgraceful for the US to use the card "we pay 25% of UN funding", whaaat,,,
UN General Assembly, defying Trump, rejects US recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital
One hundred and twenty-eight countries voted in favor of the resolution. Nine countries voted against and thirty-five countries abstained.
The vote came despite threats from the Trump administration to cut funding to U.S. aid recipients who voted for it.
The symbolic vote from the General Assembly is not legally binding.
A United Nations General Assembly resolution calling for the U.S. to withdraw its decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital passed overwhelmingly Thursday despite threats from the Trump administration to cut funding to U.S. aid recipients who voted in favor.
One hundred and twenty-eight countries voted for the resolution. Nine countries voted against and thirty-five countries abstained.
"Let them vote against us," Trump said at a Cabinet meeting Wednesday. "We don't care. But this isn't like it used to be where they could vote against you and then you pay them hundreds of millions of dollars."
On Tuesday, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley said the United States would be "taking names" of those who voted for the resolution.
The symbolic vote from the General Assembly is not legally binding. The U.N. Security Council failed to adopt a similar resolution on Monday after the U.S. vetoed the measure. Security Council decisions carry the force of international law.
Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu criticized the United States on Thursday for "bullying."
Following the vote, he posted a message to Twitter saying the international community had "once again showed that dignity and sovereignty are not for sale."
A spokesperson for the U.S. mission pushed back on those saying the vote was a rebuke.
"While the resolution passed, the vote breakdown tells a different story," the spokesperson told NBC News. "It's clear that many countries prioritized their relationship with the United States over an unproductive attempt to isolate us for a decision that was our sovereign right to make."
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu posted a message on Twitter thanking Trump and Haley. He said that he appreciated "the fact that a growing number of countries refused to participate in this theater of the absurd."
The nine countries that voted against the resolution were Israel, the United States, Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Nauru, Palau, Togo, Honduras and Guatemala.
Among the 35 countries that abstained were U.S. allies Australia, Canada, Mexico and Poland.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/21/un-...usalem-as-israels-capital-null-and-avoid.html
One hundred and twenty-eight countries voted in favor of the resolution. Nine countries voted against and thirty-five countries abstained.
The vote came despite threats from the Trump administration to cut funding to U.S. aid recipients who voted for it.
The symbolic vote from the General Assembly is not legally binding.
A United Nations General Assembly resolution calling for the U.S. to withdraw its decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital passed overwhelmingly Thursday despite threats from the Trump administration to cut funding to U.S. aid recipients who voted in favor.
One hundred and twenty-eight countries voted for the resolution. Nine countries voted against and thirty-five countries abstained.
"Let them vote against us," Trump said at a Cabinet meeting Wednesday. "We don't care. But this isn't like it used to be where they could vote against you and then you pay them hundreds of millions of dollars."
On Tuesday, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley said the United States would be "taking names" of those who voted for the resolution.
The symbolic vote from the General Assembly is not legally binding. The U.N. Security Council failed to adopt a similar resolution on Monday after the U.S. vetoed the measure. Security Council decisions carry the force of international law.
Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu criticized the United States on Thursday for "bullying."
Following the vote, he posted a message to Twitter saying the international community had "once again showed that dignity and sovereignty are not for sale."
A spokesperson for the U.S. mission pushed back on those saying the vote was a rebuke.
"While the resolution passed, the vote breakdown tells a different story," the spokesperson told NBC News. "It's clear that many countries prioritized their relationship with the United States over an unproductive attempt to isolate us for a decision that was our sovereign right to make."
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu posted a message on Twitter thanking Trump and Haley. He said that he appreciated "the fact that a growing number of countries refused to participate in this theater of the absurd."
The nine countries that voted against the resolution were Israel, the United States, Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Nauru, Palau, Togo, Honduras and Guatemala.
Among the 35 countries that abstained were U.S. allies Australia, Canada, Mexico and Poland.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/21/un-...usalem-as-israels-capital-null-and-avoid.html
KingKhanWC
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Trump also threatened, which now is 128 countries to stop foreign aid. lol
The US has lost all credibility in this conflict, they are not peacemakers but warmongers and under the thumb of Zionism. The sooner they are no longer a superpower the better for the world.
Majestic_Inzi
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Egypt took $1.2bn in aid from USA last year, will they take it off them? Will they heck, Trump is all talk, those check points are closed for a reason between Gaza and Egypt.
I think this is the beginning of the end for USA dominance in world peace, they have totally lost their marbles. That speech was awful, Don Caleone would have been pleased with that speech.
Yossarian
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I doubt even the UN Ambassadors of these other nations would know where Israel was on a map even if it was pointed out to them. They just voted as they were told to do by the USA.
James
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Micronesia lol, sounds like a tropical disease.
Stunned meanwhile by the rabid posts from [MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION] - much more deeply rooted Zionistic tendencies than most Jews I might add. Giving some of the Tea Party fringe lunatics on the Hill a run for their money.
Stunned meanwhile by the rabid posts from [MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION] - much more deeply rooted Zionistic tendencies than most Jews I might add. Giving some of the Tea Party fringe lunatics on the Hill a run for their money.
Yossarian
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Considering that at one time he was, from the sounds of it, deeply committed to Islam, and was surrounded by those one might even call 'fundamentalists', that is one heck of a change. It's akin to a teenager rebelling against everything his parents stand for, except that in [MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION] 's case he seems to have done it twice - in opposite directions both times.
I still don't understand the fuss...
On the topic of borders...at the very least it's what they gained in 1948 when the Arabs rejected the UN partition, went to war and lost...Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel since 1948...that obviously didn't include what is East Jerusalem which was annexed by the Jordanians...
Point remains that regardless of where you are on the spectrum...there has never been a question of Jerusalem being the capital...the question is of how far that capital stretches...those who believe in going back to pre-1967 borders aren't saying Tel-Aviv is the capital...
Trump said in his original speech that the borders are up for discussion...what isn't in question is whether Jerusalem is the Israeli capital...therefore this really is a lot of furore over nothing really...because the reality is Tel-Aviv has never been the capital in real terms...
For all the talk about Jewish influence etc...the Arabs have done very well themselves in terms of presentation...and in terms of showing the influence they have...
In real terms anyway what the UN says has never mattered...and it still doesn't now...
The likes of KKWC have spoken plenty criticising the UN...but suddenly international law matters in issues where it suits ones bias...
On the UN I have always been consistent...it's an impartial organisation with little influence...where providing there is no 100% consensus on something then nothing is binding...
Hence US vetoes on Israel...Russian vetoes on Syria etc...
On the topic of borders...at the very least it's what they gained in 1948 when the Arabs rejected the UN partition, went to war and lost...Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel since 1948...that obviously didn't include what is East Jerusalem which was annexed by the Jordanians...
Point remains that regardless of where you are on the spectrum...there has never been a question of Jerusalem being the capital...the question is of how far that capital stretches...those who believe in going back to pre-1967 borders aren't saying Tel-Aviv is the capital...
Trump said in his original speech that the borders are up for discussion...what isn't in question is whether Jerusalem is the Israeli capital...therefore this really is a lot of furore over nothing really...because the reality is Tel-Aviv has never been the capital in real terms...
For all the talk about Jewish influence etc...the Arabs have done very well themselves in terms of presentation...and in terms of showing the influence they have...
In real terms anyway what the UN says has never mattered...and it still doesn't now...
The likes of KKWC have spoken plenty criticising the UN...but suddenly international law matters in issues where it suits ones bias...
On the UN I have always been consistent...it's an impartial organisation with little influence...where providing there is no 100% consensus on something then nothing is binding...
Hence US vetoes on Israel...Russian vetoes on Syria etc...
KingKhanWC
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Define the borders of Israel?
As for the UN , yes it's weak and its not impartial but we can still take the views of the general assembly to realise the majority of the planet disagreed with Trumps decision.
Israel is seen as a pariah state by most but you keep defending this occupying and oppressive state built on the back of relgious extremism.
Also worth noting that this isn't really anything new ...anti-Israel resolutions have always been like this ...
The loss is Trumps who being publically inept did the open threat thing which no one responded well to...nor are they threats he will keep ...
Again real terms nothing has changed in terms of whether Jerusalem is the capital or not ...it still is to Israelis ...
This is a loss for Trump and familiar territory for Israel ...
The loss is Trumps who being publically inept did the open threat thing which no one responded well to...nor are they threats he will keep ...
Again real terms nothing has changed in terms of whether Jerusalem is the capital or not ...it still is to Israelis ...
This is a loss for Trump and familiar territory for Israel ...
JaDed
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Instead of abstaining India voted for?Unfortunate decision,what's the point of supporting Palestine ,India has no benefit whatsoever, Sushma Swaraj should had directed to abstain.
Australia and Canada abstained.
Australia and Canada abstained.
JaDed
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Must say I feel the same about your posts,from being a commie to now leaning towards a religion and then speaking against "booze" culture(exaggeration) and now using the term "Zionist".
The pendulum has gone 180.
JaDed
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On what basis are you making that claim?
James
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Fair enough but at least what you refer to are just my mostly harmless personal views. Actively promoting the policy of civilian settlements in Israel meanwhile (settlements that most countries in the world have declared illegal) is arguably a bit different to that.
cricketjoshila
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Extremely poor decision by India.We should have abstained.Pathetic foreign policy decision.
CricketCartoons
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A Hindu nationalist government buckled under pressure from the Arab states. Story of hindus.
Saeed
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Soon Nikki Haley will be taking names and then all these nations will line up to apologize to President Trump for bullying U.S. They will say we will pay our dues to UN and 2 percent to the NATO from now on. But President Trump will say, you’re fake news. We remember you were taking our money and voting against us.
WhenSultansBowled
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Are you trolling?
Really stupid this...its the demand of subservience and it's being done publicly...the 'you do as we tell you or else'...these are conversations to be had in private...
Also countries have their own people to think about and the reactions these things will cause...so threatening countries like Egypt and Afghanistan was ridiculous...leaders have to at least give the image of being Anti-American and Anti-Israel...if Egypt voted FOR it will lead to riots there...
Trump and Haley basically humiliated their allies with this show...the UN is not a serious organisation...neither are their resolutions...why the attempt to make it seem relevant?...it's Trumps loss with this resolution...
He is not going to take any action against the nations that voted against...he can't afford to...and the alliances will continue...lol even Turkish imports of Israeli products are up 75% this year...for all of Erdogans public bluster...
For all of Trumps stupidity...again there was nothing wrong with what he said...if there is a two state solution then Trumps comments which pushed for negotiation between parties on what the final version of those borders will be simply stated that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel...this was a problem in 1948 too...when Jerusalem had defined borders following the war...the only reason to get angry is if one feels Jerusalem belongs solely to the Arabs which Hamas and the PA have stated on many an occasion...and the idea that there is a possibility for the Israelis to leave or be removed from Jerusalem as a whole...
A lot of furore over something that makes absolutely no difference on the ground...
shaz619
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Makes no difference on the ground totally agree but are you really that ignorant to believe this elevates the situation positively over there?
The situation is a shambles as it is...there is no peace process...and herein lies one of the issues which people who support the Palestinian leaderships position often fail to note...especially in regards to the two state solution...
Hamas and the PA have stated they support a two state solution...but would not recognise Israel...now how does that make sense...they appear to be paradoxical positions but they aren't...
Look at Mahmoud Abbas who is more moderate than Hamas...he has never spoken about the existence of a Palestinian state and a Jewish state...
The idea is one state in the West Bank and Gaza...ie the Palestinian state...
While the other is essentially a binational state...ie pre-1967 borders AND the right of return...which would mean the return of what is it now...5m refugees?...
So considering Arabs already comprise 20% of Israel proper...add in 5m refugees then you have the possibility of an Arab majority within a two state solution...
Thing is this was in 2014....two years prior to that he had suggested he would consider changing the goalposts on right of return...and he was attacked publicly by Hamas and by other Palestinian activists who essentially called him a traitor for being willing to compromise on this issue...
Haniyeh for Hamas berated Abbas:
'It is not possible for any person, regardless of who he is, a person, a president, government, or authority, to give up on Palestinian land or to give up the right of return to our homes that we were forced out from,"
In general there has been very little room for compromise...the Arabs are not willing to move on certain issues eg right of return...and neither will the Israelis...anytime there has been a suggestion of compromise it amounts to political suicide and accusations of treason...Arafat once commented on not wanting to end up like Sadat (assassinated) when being presented with a peace plan...
Anyone with an iota of ration can understand why the Israelis would prefer the status quo...why would they make a peace that renders them a minority?...
KKWC slyly tried to suggest Hamas were willing to make a peace...
Anyway here is the pro-Hamas Al Jazeera who stated exactly what that peace entailed:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/...inian-state-1967-borders-170501114309725.html
Why would any Israeli in their right mind accept these conditions?...
shaz619
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I don't think you answered my question
Are you talking about the peace process or general living?...
Gazans are sending rockets...and 'peaceful' protests in the West Bank today involving molotov cocktails and rocks...
So yes it has enflamed things on the ground somewhat...the Israelis already know what their capital is...Trump telling them that hasn't made a huge difference...
But it's not like tensions weren't already existent prior to Trump...this is just yet another exploitative catalyst...
Earlier this year there was the whole thing about the shootings at the Temple Mount...and there have plenty of other attacks this year...all of which have been praised by Hamas...and some praised and condemned by Mahmoud Abbas...
Tensions always exist...and incidents exacerbate them...
shaz619
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Tensions always exist, this has enflamed things somewhat only a couple of people dead here and there no big deal lol that's what you're saying. You always justify everything from a political stand point of the one who fires the bullet but you're not in government mate, it's naive to think this whole ordeal doesn't escalate tensions significantly, in the end the Gazans are not going to take a knee before their occupier because in their view they have a right to the land which has been claimed by the Israeli's as their own; so their retaliations are expected even more so in the current situation especially.
Savak
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The ideal plan for Israel and Palestine was the 1947-48 UN plan which specified Israel and Palestine state together with Jerusalem to be a UN controlled city.
The Arab Countries in 2002 offered recognition to the State of Israel with full trade and economic ties if they withdrew to the 1967 borders.
While the former would be ideal, i am equally inclined to the later.
The Arab Countries in 2002 offered recognition to the State of Israel with full trade and economic ties if they withdrew to the 1967 borders.
While the former would be ideal, i am equally inclined to the later.
KingKhanWC
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Majority of the world(nations) find it's policies of occupation and apartheid unacceptable. One of the meanings of a pariah state. Next time please use google if you dont know the definition of a word.
KingKhanWC
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They must have trained you well but not well enough.
It was reported by many news media including Israeli media.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-would-accept-peace-with-israel-west-bank-leader-says/
Why are you running away from a simple question?
Define Israels borders?
Everyone says they want peace...but it's a loaded comment...just like the two state solution as a standalone statement is loaded...
Nice try with the post...but did you bother to check the follow up?...they responded angrily in fact to the suggestion that they had softened their stance...
If you can find one source where part of that peace involved recognising Israel then i take everything I have said back...
Prior to anything that Trump said they have openly stated they will NOT recognise Israel and will liberate every inch of the Holy land...
You're being extremely disingenuous now...
I have a challenge for you...find anything which suggests Hamas will recognise Israel or that they have ever offered to...
Or that Hamas don't predicate 'right of return'...
They presented their new watered down charter this year...
This is as moderate as they have got in their demands...
Their new charter still has:
No Palestinian leader would get away with closing the doors on right of return or claiming the recognition of Israel...their whole position is based on Israel being illegitimate and temporary...so stop with the drivel of the desire for peace...it's peace contingent on the Jews being ruled by the Arabs again...and i'm sure you can at least admit how irrational it would be for Israel to agree to such concessions...
As for your other question...i've already answered it...directly to the first person who asked...so feel free to scroll up...at the very least it's what was pre-1967...which still renders Jerusalem the capital of Israel as it has been since they got independence...
Yossarian
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So justifying and accepting the 'right of return' of one side because, supposedly, their ancestors were forced out thousands of years ago is perfectly legitimate, but the other side not willing to give up their 'right of return' even though they were forced out only 70 years ago, with many of those forced out still alive, is 'unreasonable'?
Serious questions:
Remind me, you being fairly knowledgable on historical matters, how that pans out over time? How the descendants of one side, feeling aggrieved because their ancestors were victimised by a more powerful foe, will try and take 'revenge' on later generations of the original oppressors, even hundreds of years later when the tables are turned. The peoples of the Balkans and Caucasus are just two such examples.
With that in mind, how long do you think a Jewish Israel state will remain dominant over those it's oppressing? Another 70 years? A hundred .... two hundred years ....? Then what?
Up until not many generations ago, in many parts of the world, from Spain to Turkey, it was mainly the Muslims that the Jews turned to for protection and safety when they were being persecuted by Christian rulers. In the last couple of thousands of years, since the advent of Christianity, and later Islam, under whose hands have the Jews suffered the most? Under the Muslims or Christians?
With all of the above in mind, surely the Jews of Israel know better than most, and should bear that in mind on behalf of their future generations and what they're stoking up for those future generations to deal with?
JaDed
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Are the majority of the world not dealing with Israel and using the tech made there? How is it a Pariah state if majority of the world deals with Israel?
JaDed
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That's based on perspective ,I feel religion which has caused centuries of war and bloodshed anyone leading to that is along the same lines of what "Zionist" views could be.
JaDed
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If Congress would had voted this way we would had seen multiple statements from BJP and now this lol ,what did the Arab states even promise??
Varun
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People who are lambasting our vote better watch this video from a few months ago and form your opinion:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/D6xBhBYIqy8" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I've set the video to play from the particular point where the Israeli diplomat is giving his opinion on India's typical stance at the UN.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/D6xBhBYIqy8" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I've set the video to play from the particular point where the Israeli diplomat is giving his opinion on India's typical stance at the UN.
You're correct...your examples are valid...however the point of Zionism in the first place was that the situation of the Jews in the first place was at rock bottom...the idea of self determination was viewed as a necessary one given the situation...and yeh it's absolutely correct that life under the Ottomans was better...but remember prior to the Ottoman Empire ending...nationalist movements were starting to take force...there's documented stuff in lots of now Christian countries that got independence from the Ottoman Empire who mistreated Jews during the 19th century...Jews preferred Muslim rule as you stated...so they also opposed the independence movements of the likes of Greece...or just simply not being caught in the crossfire in the likes of the First Balkan War...
Also as was the case everywhere at this time...this was an era of nationalist sentiment...and the Jews were essentially treated as an ethnic group...so had similar aspirations...
The situation for Arab Jews also started to decline at the advent of Arab nationalism and for instance French colonisation...the fight against the French lead to nationalism in North Africa and Jews found themselves caught in between...pogroms happened there too...
So it's easy to point to the Ottoman Empire and state that Jews were fine there...the Ottoman rulers were by and large very good to the Jews...but the Empires decline and subsequent end meant the Jews didn't have that choice anymore...
It's perfectly understandable for a stateless people to desire a state...and most states are created in blood...independence movements are never nice affairs...and 'historic' claims are always made...you brought up Yugoslavia for example...
Point is now...is it better for Jews than it was prior to 1948?...absolutely yes...and it is because of that understanding of their history in general that the issue of security trumps everything else...
Also the discussion of what could have been is a hypothetical...it's perfectly understandable that the Arabs in midst of their own nationalism were opposed to a Jewish state...ie Jordan and Egypt wanted to expand...but the whole point is there was a war that the Jews hadn't asked for...they accepted the partition plan...had the Arabs accepted two states back then the discussion could be a different one today...and had the Arabs absorbed the refugees as all countries do during war...then again the discussion could be a different one....
It suits his perspective to believe that...if we go by UN votes then Israel has almost always been a pariah state...
KKWC wants to present Israel as weak or declining...when if anything they have used the issues with Iran to actually improve relations with their neighbours...
And trade continues...I mean Erdogan champions BDS yet has absolutely no problem trading with Israel...
As for India you will continue to buy Israeli arms...and have good bilateral trade in general...
Pakpak
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Phone internet iffy, can you tell what is in the video?
Pakpak
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There are some hardcore facts which get in the way whenever this issue comes up anywhere in the world. Those facts are:
-Israel is a brutal apartheid state
-Israel is continuing to steal more land day after day, land they have no right to
-Israeli democracy is a sham and the Muslim population heavily discriminated against
HOWEVER:
-Israel IS here to stay, the Arabs had their chance at the start but now its a fact it is here to stay
-Israel holds ALL the cards when it comes to negotiations. Arabs have no longer got any leverage. To start negotiations from the point of ''we won't recognise Israel'' is utter stupidity (Hamas)
-Arabs deserve East Jerusalem as their capital
Israel will not let it become one state, as that way they will be outnumbered. Nor are we getting two states right now, partly due to Palestinians refusing to recognise the other party and also because right now Israelis can continue their illegal expansion without any kind of response. Result is the Palestininans who will continue o get abused.
-Israel is a brutal apartheid state
-Israel is continuing to steal more land day after day, land they have no right to
-Israeli democracy is a sham and the Muslim population heavily discriminated against
HOWEVER:
-Israel IS here to stay, the Arabs had their chance at the start but now its a fact it is here to stay
-Israel holds ALL the cards when it comes to negotiations. Arabs have no longer got any leverage. To start negotiations from the point of ''we won't recognise Israel'' is utter stupidity (Hamas)
-Arabs deserve East Jerusalem as their capital
Israel will not let it become one state, as that way they will be outnumbered. Nor are we getting two states right now, partly due to Palestinians refusing to recognise the other party and also because right now Israelis can continue their illegal expansion without any kind of response. Result is the Palestininans who will continue o get abused.
Varun
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Quoting word for word:
"There is the overt side of diplomacy, and the covert side. Obviously, under the table you have relations between intelligence services and military mechanisms and sometimes, politicians. But overtly, because of the problems of public opinion, both domestic as well as foreign - you don't call in your chips from India unless you really need them. If they had to make the deciding vote - if this was going to save Israel, perhaps they would have leaned over backwards in order to do it. But there is no point in asking India to expose themselves to the Arab and Muslim world when it is only one of several votes. So both sides tacitly agree, that if India can it will vote against. If not, it will abstain. And the relationship is still very solid under the table."
Pakpak
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Make sense. It is also a fact that Pakistani agencies still have relations with Israelis and these relations were at their peak during Zia era where he said I don't care if we get weapons from Israel as long they put the star of david on it. Even now few years back there was some sort of scandal where Israelis tried to sell British weapons to Pakistanis.
As I said before, we can learn from India how to maintain foreign relationships. Its only now India is courting the Americans way more than before. We spent half a century alienating the Russians because of Americans.
Varun
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Of course, Israel is a quality ally to have in the fields of military, technology and many other sectors. Depending on who you are, you can choose to deal with them either over the table or under it, but you ignore them to your detriment.
If you choose the latter option, you need to spend some time and money on PR to convince the gullible (I may or may not be referring to you, [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]) that you have nothing to do with them, but as with most PR it's just fluff: all of the following countries deal with Israel - USA, UK, India, Pakistan, Russia, Turkey, even Saudi Arabia now.
Yossarian
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Except for one flaw in that argument. Trump made it a personal egoistic issue by making those blackmail threats "We'll be taking names" against those considering voting for the resolution. And now he's been humiliated publicly by all those that did. So India could have abstained, like Canada for example, instead of joining in Trump's public humiliation.
Yossarian
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By and large don't disagree with that.
However, you failed to address the final (and main) point of the thread:
Of course the Israeli Jews are aware...and it's for that reason they focus on security...they are well aware of their history as a persecuted people...and are also well aware they don't have a legitimate partner in attaining peace...you don't believe that ship has sailed?...
70 years and the Palestinians still have the same demands...and if anything they are even more virulent with the likes of Hamas...
The alliance between Hamas and Fatah has already broken down too in less than 10 weeks...so there is actually no-one to negotiate with...Palestinian organisations can't even make peace with each other...
They have also been to war three times with the Arab states...and for the moment at least that aspect seems to be under control...Egypt and Jordan are on friendly terms and with Iran as the issue of the hour they have the Saudis on board too...
The status quo is what is preferable...
Without discussing things from a moral standpoint...but rather a state interest standpoint what alternative are you suggesting?...
Yossarian
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The alternative is that they need to realise whether their current actions (settlement building for example, just to name one) are going to be in their long term good, or whether they are simply laying the foundations for future retributions against their descendants, whether in 70 or a 100 or 200 years time.
As for the (non-existant) peace process, not only are they trying to ensure that there cannot ever be a viable Palestinian state, and thus no two-state solution (again due to settlement building and splitting up the West Bank into unlinked cantons), but also that these very same policies are designed to push the Palestinians into a corner, and into the arms of the extremists - an agenda that suits the Israelis by making the Palestinians out to be the bad guys and taking the attention away from settlement building and giving the settlers priority over water resources at the expense of the Palestinians ..... and that's just one example of many.
So yes, they are winning all the battles, and have been for the last 70 odd years, and probably will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. But in the long term? Have they ever asked themselves why throughout history the Jews as a people have been persecuted time and again? And I'm not simply talking persecution based on religious viewpoints and historical origins.
In fact much of the world is beginning to think that it's not just a case of Israelis (and their supporters/backers) being unable to find a partner amongst the Palestinians to make a lasting peace with, but rather they have no desire whatsoever to make peace with the Palestinians, now or ever. The status quo suits them fine, and they will do whatever it takes to ensure it remains so.
For the most part I agree...the status quo does suit them just fine...especially with the nature of who they are dealing with...
The Palestinian leadership has stuck to a mantra which it has instilled in it's people which is one of Israel not existing...and compromise is treason...so even if leadership start to think pragmatically they can't actually afford to be pragmatic as they lose their legitimacy...the extremism exists already...if anything the leadership has to maintain extremism for it's legitimacy...
Can you blame Israelis who have given up on the idea of peace?...or Palestinians for that matter?...
Previous offers were significantly more reasonable than what is on the table now...eg the Clinton Parameters...no way anything like that would ever get suggested now...
Settlements indeed prevent the chances of peace...as it adds another criteria for which the Palestinians won't agree to...which is that there must be no Jews in a future Palestinian state...the position essentially also among the likes of Likud is that Jerusalem will not be divided...
Palestinians want everything...they say that constantly..so it's easy for the Israeli populace to simply accept that there is no peace to be made...they appreciate and understand that national aspiration but realise it conflicts with their own...the desire to compromise has wittled away...
Whether Israel continues to build settlements or not...if they even give the Palestinians that state the end goal of the opponent is the same which is to take everything back and that too by force...so if in 70 years the Palestinians can do so they will...irregardless of what settlement building etc...Israel exists...that's enough of a reason...easing up now isn't going to change that belief...
Romali_rotti
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I dont think India officially voted against the US ? I was under the impression they didnt vote. Either way I get your frustration however, we cant afford to isolate ourselves in front of the international community. Believe me, I don't give 2 hoots about the Palestinians or any Arabs, to me they will serve no use to India.. However we cant isolate ourselves by siding with the Americans...
Yossarian
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By only making passing reference to settlement building, and that too in such a manner as to almost blaming the Palestinians for settlement building and expansion, whilst also completely ignoring the point of why a viable Palestinian is slowly becoming an impossibility as a direct consequence of annexation of land for settlement building and the corridors linking theses various settlements, you've resorted back to the general Israeli (and its supporters) tactics of diverting the conversation away from the key legitimate points that make it obvious that Israel is not interested in a peaceful outcome, now or ever.
And in that regard there's not much point in continuing this discussion with yourself any further.
I don't see where I disagreed with you ...I agreed that settlements were a barrier to peace ...
I also said that the Israeli government is no longer interested in peace ...not now or ever as you stated and so did I ...status quo is preferable ...
From a security standpoint too it is preferable to retain a semblance of control over the West Bank and Gaza ...
Israelis in general just don't believe there will be one ...plenty disagree with settlements but are under no illusion that this is the key to the issue ...
Where I do disagree with you is the idea of 'slowly becoming an impossibility'...it's always been that ...
However weak the Palestinians become they make the same demands ...right of return in either one state or two state is out of the question for Israel ...and connected to that is refusal of recognition of Israel ...
Those two are core requirements from both sides which won't have agreement ...
Settlements are but one issue ...
Convict
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I think that this decision, like the vast majority of decisions made by the Trump government was dumb but having read the wording of the UN resolution I approve of Australia abstaining.
The UN has no right whatsoever to declare a decision made by a sovereign country null and void.
The UN has no right whatsoever to declare a decision made by a sovereign country null and void.
Yossarian
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Yes it does. The UN, especially the Security Council, makes all sorts of decisions for the general good, but that go against the interests of some or other government/country. If one follows your line of argument, then the UN Security Council has no right whatsoever to declare further sanctions against North Korea in the motion passed yesterday, since, by your logic, it's North Korea's internal business whether or not they make nukes and ballistic missiles, especillially so considering that the veto wielding members of the said Security Council each has underground bunkers brimming full with hundreds, even thousands of them.
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KingKhanWC
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lol.
Business is business, even the Muslims used to trade with the Crusaders who conquered Jerusalem. Apartheid South Africa continued to trade.
The UNGA vote shows you it's a Pariah state, the majority of the planet feels Israels occupation is unnaccetable. Unless you an name one relevant nation which agrees with Israels policy of land theft?
KingKhanWC
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You call Israel a soverign nation but cannot define its borders? Don't worry neither can the Israelis themselves. Why would they when their holy book says its borders go into other Arab nations. This is why they are continuing their theft of land, something which you support I assume?
Israel doesn't recognise Palestine , yet you want Palestinians to recognise Israel? What planet are you Zionists on? lol
Hamas is one group and not the authority of Palestinians ,yet they have agree to talk peace. Palestinians are more genuine towards peace than your Zionist friends, we both know this but they have trained you to not admit this.
KingKhanWC
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There are near 200 million Muslims in India. How any Jews are there? Luckily India isn't as stupid as you would like it to be. It voted against the Yanks for domestic and international reasons. Don't worry the Yanks won't fall out with you , just yet.
cricketjoshila
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FYI this resolution was not passed by the UNSC but the UNGA.
cricketjoshila
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And none of those 200mn muslims have anything to do with Palestine.Indias interests lie with Israel and thats what matters.
cricketjoshila
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Winning land by war is theft?
UNGA vote is a sham.All NATO countries and India will stand by Israel if push comes to a shove.
KingKhanWC
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Jerusalem is the 3rd holy city for Muslims. Muslims first prayed towards Jerusalem before they prayed towards Mecca. The Zionist Jews want to eventually build their Temple where the Al-Aqsa mosque is present. When they try you will see the 200 million Muslims showing you what it has to do with them.
India's interests lies with being on good terms with Muslims nations over Israel.
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