Afghanistan is Pakistan’s principal enemy

[warcry]

It may seem counter-intuitive to claim that a perennially failed state with illogical borders, an ethno-demographic ticking time bomb for a population and a traditionally ungovernable periphery as the primary enemy of a nuclear armed and exponentially militarily superior neighbouring state. But in the case of the failed state of Afghanistan’s relationship with nuclear Pakistan, this is very much the reality.

Although traditionally India and Pakistan are considered supreme rivals, ultimately, modern Pakistan can handle India’s random acts of aggression as was seen in the aftermath of February’s Pulwama incident. Moreover, if India truly seeks to take its place as a leading global super-economy, it is going to have to start focusing far more on internal development and far less on showing off its military during fruitless skirmishes – whether against Pakistan or against China. In an age where even the United States under Donald Trump has traded the war marking of the Bush and Obama years for more modest money making initiatives, India will inevitably be pulled into such a path if it is serious about economic development. This will be the case even if this shatters the dreams of the most extreme elements of the ruling BJP whose Akhand Bharat fantasies are unlikely to ever be realised. The fact that India has quietly semi-normalised relations with China in an age where India is moving ever closer to the US proves that there are severe limits to the hyper-nationalism that fills the screens of pro-BJP domestic television.

But unlike India, Afghanistan is a country with little to live for. Its economy is non-existent, its biggest export is violence and its biggest import is foreign war. Such a desperate country whose fledgling leadership continues to fan the flames of regional separatism and Pashtun supremacist ideologies is dangerous even though it is weak. One could go further and say that Afghanistan is dangerous because it is weak.

Recent history has shown that one needn’t rule a rich nor mighty state to export terror. The fact that the groups that have terrorised Pakistan in recent decades have all derived from or have been armed from west of the Durand Line is proof positive of this. Likewise, whilst Afghanistan has never had a truly sovereign economy, such a broken state in a strategic location will always find some rich foreign patron to exploit it as a pawn in a larger game. This has happened in respect of the British Empire, Soviet Union, India and the United States and it will continue to happen with some other foreign patron even if the US eventually withdraws from the quagmire that George W. Bush inaugurated in 2001.

As such, Afghanistan will continue to exist as a disunited state whose leadership elements can survive only with a negative narrative which seeks to antagonise Pakistan by politically poisoning the people of KP Province whilst the country’s radicals will also continue to threaten Iran by exploiting the naturally pro-Iranian Hazara minority of Afghanistan in attempts to drag Iran into an unnecessary quagmire. Afghanistan is also a natural soft underbelly for terrorists seeking to infiltrate Russia via central Asia whilst the same can be said of those who wish to cause harm to China via its remote north-western borders.

Because of this, Pakistan needs to diplomatically co-opt elements within Afghanistan that have been and continue to be equally victimised by Kabul regime after Kabul regime. As the Taliban have come in from the cold twenty-five years after Pakistan realised that whilst extreme, the Taliban were the only group that would cease to light fires across the Durand Line, it is now time for Pakistan to do what the United States, Iran, Russia and China have long been doing and positively engage a reformed and moderated Taliban with renewed liens of diplomatic communication. If the US can barely take the current Kabul regime that it created seriously, there is no reason for Pakistan to be more royal than the king in this respect – especially since in Pakistan’s case such a policy would be active masochism masquerading as diplomacy.

In terms of other minorities including Hazaras, Pakistan can work to improve relations with neighbouring Iran by jointly expressing a desire to assure that life for this traditionally oppressed minority in Afghanistan has its collective rights looked out for under a new Afghan regime. The same is true of the Tajiks of Afghanistan whose interests ought to unite the wider Persianate world, the Sunni Muslim world and the wider post-Soviet space in which Russia has key security interests.

Because Afghanistan is a failed state, the US has invited its early 2000s Taliban enemy to the peace table and Russia likewise hosts an Islamist faction that it once considered a supreme enemy following the USSR’s humiliation at the hands of the Mujaheddin. In this sense, Pakistan will have an easier time communicating with the Taliban than those who ironically are communicating more with the Taliban than Pakistan is doing in 2019. Likewise, just as Russia, Iran and the US are talking to former enemies in Afghanistan, Pakistan can also pivot towards providing guidance and support to oppressed naturally pro-Iranian elements in the Afghan state that once viewed Pakistan with suspicion.

This triangulated strategy which cuts out the raging but paradoxically floundering Kabul middleman whilst engaging with important constituent elements of the Afghan failed state is a far better use of Pakistan’s time than its embarrassing attempts to pretend that a regime which refuses to recognise Pakistan’s sovereign borders whilst allowing terror to flow across the Durand Line is some how a regime worthy of redemption let alone of friendship.

If Pakistan does not realise that Afghanistan is its principal enemy whose violent geopolitical characteristics can be tamed only by appealing to politically and ethnically marginalised elements of the Afghan state, Pakistan will have committed a great crime against itself – the crime of foolishness leading to attrition and then to doom.

https://eurasiafuture.com/2019/07/01/afghanistan-is-pakistans-principal-enemy/

 

[PakLFC]

Shhhh!! Most here believe that all people are not the same and nonsense like that! Looking at the facts Afghanistan has always been against Pakistan, they were even against the creation of our country. Most Afghanis are against Pak consequently I wouldn't give an inch to them either. I love reminding them of what their country is and how we took them in when no one else would. As for this Muslim brotherhood that many here keep harping on about my question is why is it that only us Pakistanis keep going on about it?. Every other Muslim country like the Arabs, Iran and Turkey do what is right for them. Why didn't they take in millions of Afghan refugee's if this Muslim brotherhood thing is true?. Afghanistan has only ever created trouble and problems for Pak, nothing else. Iran got it right but treating their refugee's like they did. Afghanistan and it's people are a disgrace, they only know hate, treachery and violence.

 

[PakLFC]

About a trillion years back or something our KPK and FATA regions were part of Afghanistan. Then the Brits come in and take these regions making it a part of British India. After the formation of Pakistan these regions naturally become a part of Pakistan, today these backward Afghans don't like this at all. Despite their Pashtunistan dream dying decades back they still think our Pathans are eager to become part of their hell hole when in reality it is the exact opposite that is true. Just see the aggressive wicket taking celebrations of Shaheen Afridi versus Afghanistan to see where the heart of our Pathans is. That was a big slap on the face Manzoor Pashteen and his followers.

 

[Heisenberg111]

Great post, couldn't agree more. Let's not forget that Afghanistan was the only country to not accept Pakistan in 1947 and till day refuses to accept the Durand line. Tried to invade Bajaur in the 60's and failed miserably, imposed an unconventional war on Pakistan since its independence.

 

[sjahmed23]

It's Pakistan against the world out here. God what have the Pakistanis done to deserve this? India on the east, Afghan and dubious Iran to the west. And yet people don't see the bigger picture and why the army is the only institution holding the country together. If you take out the army then you have a Syria/Iraq like situation.

Not to sound like a broken record but Afghanis have been ruining Pakistan for decades. Spread of drugs, guns and terrorism all started after 80s where we mistakenly helped them fight off the soviets. If you look at cities like Karachi where most of these Afghans settled they have been ruined by overpopulation and slums of Afghan refugees. This country too hard headed to resolve their differences and make progress.

 

[szrana007]

Pakistan should openly support Afghan Taliban and also negotiate with Tajiks and Hazaras,. Thats the only way to deal with Afghan quagmire.

 

[PakLFC]

It is great that Pakistan is supporting the Afghan Taliban. This is what angers so many Afghani people which is even better Now they know how we have been feeling for such a long time.

 

[warcry]

for me personally, the solution to afghanistan is partition
it came into existance in the time of mughal and iranian weakness, and continued to exist because the british wanted a buffer state between itself and the russian empire.

afghanistan's existance will continue to be a threat to national security. no zarb e azb or any operation will be successful long-term until the fires of militancy are put out inside afghanistan's borders.

the solution is for all the neigbours (iran, tajikstan, turkministan, uzbekistan and pakistan) to join together and partition the territories held by afghans, work together to bring peace. only then can trade flourish between south and central asia, when peace is reached in the the region.

 

[Zhasan]

for me personally, the solution to afghanistan is partition
it came into existance in the time of mughal and iranian weakness, and continued to exist because the british wanted a buffer state between itself and the russian empire.

afghanistan's existance will continue to be a threat to national security. no zarb e azb or any operation will be successful long-term until the fires of militancy are put out inside afghanistan's borders.

the solution is for all the neigbours (iran, tajikstan, turkministan, uzbekistan and pakistan) to join together and partition the territories held by afghans, work together to bring peace. only then can trade flourish between south and central asia, when peace is reached in the the region.

A better solution would be to divide it among it's neighbors, Pakistan should take the eastern pukhtoon regions, Northern regions dominated by Tajiks and Uzbeks should cede to central asian states and Western region should go with Iran.

 

[Heisenberg111]

for me personally, the solution to afghanistan is partition
it came into existance in the time of mughal and iranian weakness, and continued to exist because the british wanted a buffer state between itself and the russian empire.

afghanistan's existance will continue to be a threat to national security. no zarb e azb or any operation will be successful long-term until the fires of militancy are put out inside afghanistan's borders.

the solution is for all the neigbours (iran, tajikstan, turkministan, uzbekistan and pakistan) to join together and partition the territories held by afghans, work together to bring peace. only then can trade flourish between south and central asia, when peace is reached in the the region.

Good solution, completely agree.

 

[AdamM97]

A better solution would be to divide it among it's neighbors, Pakistan should take the eastern pukhtoon regions, Northern regions dominated by Tajiks and Uzbeks should cede to central asian states and Western region should go with Iran.

It's not easy to be an expansionist these days, especially with all the international laws. Pakistan should just focus on developing KPK and Balochistan to such an extent, that groups like PTM seize to exist and Afghanistan gives up on their delusional dreams of getting rid of the Durand Line.

We need to develop and stabilize ourselves first, only after we've achieved that can we start thinking of an aggressive foreign policy.

 

[saeedhk]

Before branding Afghanistan's hate for Pakistan as illogical and unjustified, it is important to understand the reasons behind such hate.

The hate mainly stems from the fact that Pakistan has been actively supporting terror outfits in Afghanistan which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Afghans.

Our policy in Afghanistan has been flawed since that early 1990s. We were only one of the three countries in the world to recognise the Taliban government in the late 1990s.

 

[ElRaja]

A better solution would be to divide it among it's neighbors, Pakistan should take the eastern pukhtoon regions, Northern regions dominated by Tajiks and Uzbeks should cede to central asian states and Western region should go with Iran.

which would entail trying to naturilise 15 million afghans, thanks but no thanks, don't see what pak gains from annexing eastern Afghanistan.

encouraging the three nothern stans to annex the northern part of Afghanistan may have some value, altho tajikistan is fairly a basket case too.

dont think theres any easy solution to the afghan problem pak faces.

 

[King-Misbah]

for me personally, the solution to afghanistan is partition
it came into existance in the time of mughal and iranian weakness, and continued to exist because the british wanted a buffer state between itself and the russian empire.

afghanistan's existance will continue to be a threat to national security. no zarb e azb or any operation will be successful long-term until the fires of militancy are put out inside afghanistan's borders.

the solution is for all the neigbours (iran, tajikstan, turkministan, uzbekistan and pakistan) to join together and partition the territories held by afghans, work together to bring peace. only then can trade flourish between south and central asia, when peace is reached in the the region.

No thanks, do not want an inch of Afghanistan.

 

[Waseem]

Before branding Afghanistan's hate for Pakistan as illogical and unjustified, it is important to understand the reasons behind such hate.

The hate mainly stems from the fact that Pakistan has been actively supporting terror outfits in Afghanistan which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Afghans.

Our policy in Afghanistan has been flawed since that early 1990s. We were only one of the three countries in the world to recognise the Taliban government in the late 1990s.

[MENTION=48598]saeedhk[/MENTION] we learn new things everyday, like you my own history with Afghanistan was limited to 1980s. Try reading Pakistan's perspective and start history from 1947 to understand background and surely it will open your eyes. Copying some points from tweet i read (can't post because it's not verified).

September 1947 - Afghanistan became the ONLY country to vote against Pakistan’s membership of United Nations.

September 1947 - Pashtunistan flag was raised alongside Afghan national flag in Kabul. Afg started arming proxies in the border areas (Afridi Sarishtas & Ipi Faqir) for the ‘Liberation of Pashtunistan’. This led to skirmishes between Pak forces and Afghan proxies.

June 1949: While pursuing miscreants who attacked Pakistani border posts from Afghanistan, a PAF warplane inadvertently bombed the Afghan village of Moghulgai on the Waziristan border.

July 1949: A Loya Jirga held by Afghan govt at Kabul unilaterally denounced all treaties related to Pak-Afghan international border and announced full support for Pashtunistan. 31st August was declared as ‘Pashtunistan Day’ which was regularly commemorated by Afghan gov every year.

1948-1949: Afghan-supported proxies announced the formation of ‘Pashtunistan’ in Tirah (Khyber) and Razmak (Waziristan), with Ipi Faqir as President.

1950: Afghan airforce planes dropped leaflets in support of Pashtunistan, inside Pakistan’s tribal areas.

Sep-Oct 1950: Afghan army with artillery support attacked Dobandi area of Balochistan and occupied a strategic pass with the aim to cut off Chaman-Quetta Railway link. Pakistan army send reinforcements to the area and retook the pass after a week’s fighting.

1950-51: Three Afghan-led Lashkars attacked Pakistani areas across Durand Line in Khyber Agency. Afghanistan declared the miscreants as ‘Freedom Fighters’ and used its official Radio and Press for non-stop Pashtunistan propaganda. Pakistan responded by using ‘go slow’ approach on Afghanistan’s trade transit routes.

16 October 1951: Pakistani PM Liaquat Ali Khan was shot dead in Rawalpindi by an Afghan national Said Akbar Babrak. Afghanistan’s govt disowned his act.

30 March 1955: Pakistan’s diplomatic missions in Kabul, Qandahar, Jalalabad were attacked at the behest of Afghan govt and Pashtunistan flag was hoisted on the chancery of Pakistan Embassy in Kabul.

September 1959: Afghan King Zahir Shah and PM Sardar Daud reaffirmed their support for Pashtunistan.

13. September 1960: Afghan army troops and militias attacked Bajaur. The attack was repulsed by Bajauri tribesmen with help of SSG forces from Cherat.

-----------------------------------

Now i totally understand this could be one sided propaganda and i managed to verify many of the above mentioned incidents like Afghanis opposing Pakistan, Pashtunistan movement, border dispute, murder of Liaqat Ali Khan by Afghani (even i was surprised).

I only posted half of what i read, there were many other eye opening incidents but it would make this post way too long so i stopped there. In short, there was decades of history in Pak-Afghan relationship so let's not just pick and choose 80s.

 

[Pakistanian]

Before branding Afghanistan's hate for Pakistan as illogical and unjustified, it is important to understand the reasons behind such hate.

The hate mainly stems from the fact that Pakistan has been actively supporting terror outfits in Afghanistan which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Afghans.

Our policy in Afghanistan has been flawed since that early 1990s. We were only one of the three countries in the world to recognise the Taliban government in the late 1990s.

You didn't read the OP and neither have you read a history book. The hate goes back decades starting with the creation of Pakistan.

 

[Pakpak]

Before branding Afghanistan's hate for Pakistan as illogical and unjustified, it is important to understand the reasons behind such hate.

The hate mainly stems from the fact that Pakistan has been actively supporting terror outfits in Afghanistan which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Afghans.

Our policy in Afghanistan has been flawed since that early 1990s. We were only one of the three countries in the world to recognise the Taliban government in the late 1990s.

The Afghans started this proxy ** way back in the 60s through the 70s constantly even after being warned.

Educate yourself a bit. Now Russia and Iran openly support the Taliban and have been accused of doing so numerous times by the US and the Afghan themselves. A simple google search will bring you reputable news about this.

The blame goes to everyone from the West to mass killing the Afghans to the Afghans themselves. Dostum is Northern Alliance's biggest general yet to this day carries out rape, murder, mass killings, theft of public money, looting. So does every single Northern Alliance warlord who is backed, funded and run by the Afghan government. Is that our fault too?

Have some perspective before mouthing off the usual nonsense.

 

[Pakpak]

[MENTION=48598]saeedhk[/MENTION] we learn new things everyday, like you my own history with Afghanistan was limited to 1980s. Try reading Pakistan's perspective and start history from 1947 to understand background and surely it will open your eyes. Copying some points from tweet i read (can't post because it's not verified).

September 1947 - Afghanistan became the ONLY country to vote against Pakistan’s membership of United Nations.

September 1947 - Pashtunistan flag was raised alongside Afghan national flag in Kabul. Afg started arming proxies in the border areas (Afridi Sarishtas & Ipi Faqir) for the ‘Liberation of Pashtunistan’. This led to skirmishes between Pak forces and Afghan proxies.

June 1949: While pursuing miscreants who attacked Pakistani border posts from Afghanistan, a PAF warplane inadvertently bombed the Afghan village of Moghulgai on the Waziristan border.

July 1949: A Loya Jirga held by Afghan govt at Kabul unilaterally denounced all treaties related to Pak-Afghan international border and announced full support for Pashtunistan. 31st August was declared as ‘Pashtunistan Day’ which was regularly commemorated by Afghan gov every year.

1948-1949: Afghan-supported proxies announced the formation of ‘Pashtunistan’ in Tirah (Khyber) and Razmak (Waziristan), with Ipi Faqir as President.

1950: Afghan airforce planes dropped leaflets in support of Pashtunistan, inside Pakistan’s tribal areas.

Sep-Oct 1950: Afghan army with artillery support attacked Dobandi area of Balochistan and occupied a strategic pass with the aim to cut off Chaman-Quetta Railway link. Pakistan army send reinforcements to the area and retook the pass after a week’s fighting.

1950-51: Three Afghan-led Lashkars attacked Pakistani areas across Durand Line in Khyber Agency. Afghanistan declared the miscreants as ‘Freedom Fighters’ and used its official Radio and Press for non-stop Pashtunistan propaganda. Pakistan responded by using ‘go slow’ approach on Afghanistan’s trade transit routes.

16 October 1951: Pakistani PM Liaquat Ali Khan was shot dead in Rawalpindi by an Afghan national Said Akbar Babrak. Afghanistan’s govt disowned his act.

30 March 1955: Pakistan’s diplomatic missions in Kabul, Qandahar, Jalalabad were attacked at the behest of Afghan govt and Pashtunistan flag was hoisted on the chancery of Pakistan Embassy in Kabul.

September 1959: Afghan King Zahir Shah and PM Sardar Daud reaffirmed their support for Pashtunistan.

13. September 1960: Afghan army troops and militias attacked Bajaur. The attack was repulsed by Bajauri tribesmen with help of SSG forces from Cherat.

-----------------------------------

Now i totally understand this could be one sided propaganda and i managed to verify many of the above mentioned incidents like Afghanis opposing Pakistan, Pashtunistan movement, border dispute, murder of Liaqat Ali Khan by Afghani (even i was surprised).

I only posted half of what i read, there were many other eye opening incidents but it would make this post way too long so i stopped there. In short, there was decades of history in Pak-Afghan relationship so let's not just pick and choose 80s.

Its okay, for these people history books start from 1989.

 

[PakLFC]

Back in the 1960's Afghanistan was a really hip place. They had things like fashion show's, cinema's and no one was forced to cover up. There was not a Kalashnikov to be seen anywhere on the streets....they even had ice cream would you believe it!!? Yes I said Afghanistan had ice cream and parks in the 1960's!! During that period Pak was rapidly progressing as well due to peace at the borders. As Allama Iqbal said peace in Afghanistan means peace in all neighbouring countries as well.

 

[Waseem]

Its okay, for these people history books start from 1989.

I was guilty of that as well as i left Pakistan in my early teens so didn't know much about Pak-Afghan history and i also wondered why there is so much hatred between the two countries, [MENTION=48598]saeedhk[/MENTION] is a very reasonable poster so lack of knowledge could be the reason. I don't think we need to believe one sided view either, independent research should help understand things better.

 

[CricketCartoons]

In a t for tat move, india must also downgrade pakistan from its current status as principal enemy if pakistan wants to play dirty and downgrade us.

 

[Waseem]

In a t for tat move, india must also downgrade pakistan from its current status as principal enemy if pakistan wants to play dirty and downgrade us.

We downgraded you because we don't appreciate enemies who DELIBERATELY choose to lose

 

[Slog]

Said it years ago

Afghans are the real enemy.

Indians are estranged brothers with whom we have bad relations and a major disagreement.

Afghans are our enemies

 

[Pakistanian]

Said it years ago

Afghans are the real enemy.

Indians are estranged brothers with whom we have bad relations and a major disagreement.

Afghans are our enemies

I wouldn't call Indians our "estranged brothers", they're just neighbors that have caused a lot of harm to Pakistan. I wouldn't get all sappy with them either.

 

[PakLFC]

In a t for tat move, india must also downgrade pakistan from its current status as principal enemy if pakistan wants to play dirty and downgrade us.

Downgrade whatever you want. The Pak closed airspace still has India losing millions every day Worry about the drought in India for starters.

 

[Waseem]

I wouldn't call Indians our "estranged brothers", they're just neighbors that have caused a lot of harm to Pakistan. I wouldn't get all sappy with them either.

I think it's fair to say we have both caused immense harm to each other.

It's also a fact that most Indians I have come across consider their harm to Pakistan as Pavitr Defence while Pakistan's harm to Indians as terrorism

 

[Pakistanian]

I think it's fair to say we have both caused immense harm to each other.

It's also a fact that most Indians I have come across consider their harm to Pakistan as Pavitr Defence while Pakistan's harm to Indians as terrorism

Bruh y'all getting emotional, India is no better than Afghanistan. They both are working together for their common goals which is antagonizing Pakistan.

 

[topspin]

Pakistan made a big mistake bringing in Afghan refugees. I don't want them to bring their backward practices, for e.g. bacha bazi - for those who don't know what it is, this is very much prevalent in Afghanistan and in the KP region, especially among truck drivers.

 

[the Great Khan]

About a trillion years back or something our KPK and FATA regions were part of Afghanistan. Then the Brits come in and take these regions making it a part of British India. After the formation of Pakistan these regions naturally become a part of Pakistan, today these backward Afghans don't like this at all. Despite their Pashtunistan dream dying decades back they still think our Pathans are eager to become part of their hell hole when in reality it is the exact opposite that is true. Just see the aggressive wicket taking celebrations of Shaheen Afridi versus Afghanistan to see where the heart of our Pathans is. That was a big slap on the face Manzoor Pashteen and his followers.

thats not entirely true. Babar was the ruler of Kabul so when he invaded and conquered parts of northern India he united what is Pakistan today and large parts of afghanistan.

Also during Ranjit Singhs reign and during the reign of the later Mughals what we call KP province was controlled by the Punjab..To the extent that the majority of what we now call Pakistan was either Punjab or sarhad.

So their constant whining about greater afghanistan is simply nationalistic nonsense due to their previous daliance with ethno nationalism and communism.

People forget that they invaded Pakistan in the 1950's and then supported terrorists when that failed. they also joined with the KGB and RAW in the 1970's to destabilise Balochistan. They attacked Pakistan in the 70's by bombing our villages and tribal areas with their aircraft until we started shooting them out of the sky.

They have now once again joined together with our other enemies and are bombing and killing children in schools, masjids and other places..luckily we have defeated them to the point that they are limited to border attacks and incursions in balochistan. however with the PTM now a nuisance they continue to cause us a problem.

They are a failed state and if we our economy was stronger we could have created a proper military buffer zone between certain areas, but the downside to that is the length of the border..the fencing is working however..

 

[the Great Khan]

Pakistan made a big mistake bringing in Afghan refugees. I don't want them to bring their backward practices, for e.g. bacha bazi - for those who don't know what it is, this is very much prevalent in Afghanistan and in the KP region, especially among truck drivers.

we didnt bring them in. They walked across the border with women and children in tow. You cant turn them back if they are on the move like that. With the economic problems we have had we had no choice. Also given the religious fervour due to the invasion it would have been impossible anyway..

However we need to either award them full national citizenship in pakistan or send them back. We shouldnt allow dual nationality to afghans born in pakistan.

 

[Slog]

thats not entirely true. Babar was the ruler of Kabul so when he invaded and conquered parts of northern India he united what is Pakistan today and large parts of afghanistan.

Also during Ranjit Singhs reign and during the reign of the later Mughals what we call KP province was controlled by the Punjab..To the extent that the majority of what we now call Pakistan was either Punjab or sarhad.

So their constant whining about greater afghanistan is simply nationalistic nonsense due to their previous daliance with ethno nationalism and communism.

People forget that they invaded Pakistan in the 1950's and then supported terrorists when that failed. they also joined with the KGB and RAW in the 1970's to destabilise Balochistan. They attacked Pakistan in the 70's by bombing our villages and tribal areas with their aircraft until we started shooting them out of the sky.

They have now once again joined together with our other enemies and are bombing and killing children in schools, masjids and other places..luckily we have defeated them to the point that they are limited to border attacks and incursions in balochistan. however with the PTM now a nuisance they continue to cause us a problem.

They are a failed state and if we our economy was stronger we could have created a proper military buffer zone between certain areas, but the downside to that is the length of the border..the fencing is working however..

Lol get your history right bro.

Babar was never the ruler of Kabul and India together. In fact he was kicked out of Kabul and he got control of indian areas to make them a base for an eventual campaign to win back Kabul. But he was never successfully

He never ruled both. He had deep attachment to Kabul and got buried there but there wasn’t an overlap

 

[WebGuru]

[MENTION=48598]saeedhk[/MENTION] we learn new things everyday, like you my own history with Afghanistan was limited to 1980s. Try reading Pakistan's perspective and start history from 1947 to understand background and surely it will open your eyes. Copying some points from tweet i read (can't post because it's not verified).

September 1947 - Afghanistan became the ONLY country to vote against Pakistan’s membership of United Nations.

September 1947 - Pashtunistan flag was raised alongside Afghan national flag in Kabul. Afg started arming proxies in the border areas (Afridi Sarishtas & Ipi Faqir) for the ‘Liberation of Pashtunistan’. This led to skirmishes between Pak forces and Afghan proxies.

June 1949: While pursuing miscreants who attacked Pakistani border posts from Afghanistan, a PAF warplane inadvertently bombed the Afghan village of Moghulgai on the Waziristan border.

July 1949: A Loya Jirga held by Afghan govt at Kabul unilaterally denounced all treaties related to Pak-Afghan international border and announced full support for Pashtunistan. 31st August was declared as ‘Pashtunistan Day’ which was regularly commemorated by Afghan gov every year.

1948-1949: Afghan-supported proxies announced the formation of ‘Pashtunistan’ in Tirah (Khyber) and Razmak (Waziristan), with Ipi Faqir as President.

1950: Afghan airforce planes dropped leaflets in support of Pashtunistan, inside Pakistan’s tribal areas.

Sep-Oct 1950: Afghan army with artillery support attacked Dobandi area of Balochistan and occupied a strategic pass with the aim to cut off Chaman-Quetta Railway link. Pakistan army send reinforcements to the area and retook the pass after a week’s fighting.

1950-51: Three Afghan-led Lashkars attacked Pakistani areas across Durand Line in Khyber Agency. Afghanistan declared the miscreants as ‘Freedom Fighters’ and used its official Radio and Press for non-stop Pashtunistan propaganda. Pakistan responded by using ‘go slow’ approach on Afghanistan’s trade transit routes.

16 October 1951: Pakistani PM Liaquat Ali Khan was shot dead in Rawalpindi by an Afghan national Said Akbar Babrak. Afghanistan’s govt disowned his act.

30 March 1955: Pakistan’s diplomatic missions in Kabul, Qandahar, Jalalabad were attacked at the behest of Afghan govt and Pashtunistan flag was hoisted on the chancery of Pakistan Embassy in Kabul.

September 1959: Afghan King Zahir Shah and PM Sardar Daud reaffirmed their support for Pashtunistan.

13. September 1960: Afghan army troops and militias attacked Bajaur. The attack was repulsed by Bajauri tribesmen with help of SSG forces from Cherat.

-----------------------------------

Now i totally understand this could be one sided propaganda and i managed to verify many of the above mentioned incidents like Afghanis opposing Pakistan, Pashtunistan movement, border dispute, murder of Liaqat Ali Khan by Afghani (even i was surprised).

I only posted half of what i read, there were many other eye opening incidents but it would make this post way too long so i stopped there. In short, there was decades of history in Pak-Afghan relationship so let's not just pick and choose 80s.

Another quality post with facts from one of the best poster. For some history of Pak Afghan issues start from 70s and 80s ans they don't want to read about 50s and 60s.

 

[Bewal Express]

Pakistan made a big mistake bringing in Afghan refugees. I don't want them to bring their backward practices, for e.g. bacha bazi - for those who don't know what it is, this is very much prevalent in Afghanistan and in the KP region, especially among truck drivers.

Didnt have much of a choice, and it was the right thing to do then and even with the benefit of hindsight it remains the right thing today. Its a shame that some Afghans hold so much antipathy towards us.

 

[USaqaf]

It may seem counter-intuitive to claim that a perennially failed state with illogical borders, an ethno-demographic ticking time bomb for a population and a traditionally ungovernable periphery as the primary enemy of a nuclear armed and exponentially militarily superior neighbouring state. But in the case of the failed state of Afghanistan’s relationship with nuclear Pakistan, this is very much the reality.

Pray tell me how you think Pakistan's borders are logical?
Pakistan is a formulation of British India, that had nothing to do with Afghanistan so they believe the British had no right to carve up historic pieces of Afghan territory.
In regards to population, Afghan fertility rate is 4.5 and Pakistan's is 3.55. For the half decade ending in 2025 projected fertility in Afghanistan is 3.85 and Pakistan 3.25. Afghanistan fertility rate is reducing faster than Pakistans.

... United States under Donald Trump has traded the war marking of the Bush and Obama years for more modest money making initiatives, India will inevitably be pulled into such a path if it is serious about economic development. This will be the case even if this shatters the dreams of the most extreme elements of the ruling BJP whose Akhand Bharat fantasies are unlikely to ever be realised. The fact that India has quietly semi-normalised relations with China in an age where India is moving ever closer to the US proves that there are severe limits to the hyper-nationalism that fills the screens of pro-BJP domestic television.

This flies in the face of the fact that US defense contractors are basically basking in the sun soaked with rich government contracts under Trump.
You dont really understand Akhand Bharat , it is not a geographic space , it wasnt one ever since Alexander invaded 2000 years ago but a metaphor or frame of reference to the kingdoms of Magadh and Gandhara. Even Indians know it cannot be realized.

Now to China,Pakistan is treading on dangerous waters taking loans from the Chinese , just ask Sri Lanka or numerous African countries who fell into China's notorious debt trap.
Likewise, Pakistan thinks it can generate revenue off of Gwadar port, but go into default and China will take ownership of the port and its revenues, just like what happened to the Hambantota port in SL.


Afghan anger towards Pakistan stems from their treatment as refugees.
It is not a secret that Pakistan took 2 million refugees, but it is also true that Pakistan received enormous funding from the UNHCR for supporting those refugees, (akin US payments for the war on terror) which was siphoned off due to corruption leaving the people at the mercy of crooks, gangs and criminals paying them just to survive.

Before you issue blanket statements about Afghanistan being a basket case economy , i'd caution you, similar statements were made of Bangladesh. Now Bangladesh is developing faster than Pakistan with much better human development indicators.Afghanistan till the 70s was prosperous and very Westernized, there are restrictive factors but they could easily get back on the road to progress under the right leadership leaving Pakistan in the dust.

 

[USaqaf]

A better solution would be to divide it among it's neighbors, Pakistan should take the eastern pukhtoon regions, Northern regions dominated by Tajiks and Uzbeks should cede to central asian states and Western region should go with Iran.

But but what about the peoples' aspirations (ahem Kashmir cough cough)!!

The only you can change the mindset is to change their perception,first get Pakistan's economy in order, expand education and invite lots of Afghan students to study in Pakistan. Allow them to mix freely and learn the people and culture. When they go back and eventually become ministers and civil servants they will have good intentions and make decisions that benefit you as well.

 

[saeedhk]

[MENTION=48598]saeedhk[/MENTION] we learn new things everyday, like you my own history with Afghanistan was limited to 1980s. Try reading Pakistan's perspective and start history from 1947 to understand background and surely it will open your eyes. Copying some points from tweet i read (can't post because it's not verified).

September 1947 - Afghanistan became the ONLY country to vote against Pakistan’s membership of United Nations.

September 1947 - Pashtunistan flag was raised alongside Afghan national flag in Kabul. Afg started arming proxies in the border areas (Afridi Sarishtas & Ipi Faqir) for the ‘Liberation of Pashtunistan’. This led to skirmishes between Pak forces and Afghan proxies.

June 1949: While pursuing miscreants who attacked Pakistani border posts from Afghanistan, a PAF warplane inadvertently bombed the Afghan village of Moghulgai on the Waziristan border.

July 1949: A Loya Jirga held by Afghan govt at Kabul unilaterally denounced all treaties related to Pak-Afghan international border and announced full support for Pashtunistan. 31st August was declared as ‘Pashtunistan Day’ which was regularly commemorated by Afghan gov every year.

1948-1949: Afghan-supported proxies announced the formation of ‘Pashtunistan’ in Tirah (Khyber) and Razmak (Waziristan), with Ipi Faqir as President.

1950: Afghan airforce planes dropped leaflets in support of Pashtunistan, inside Pakistan’s tribal areas.

Sep-Oct 1950: Afghan army with artillery support attacked Dobandi area of Balochistan and occupied a strategic pass with the aim to cut off Chaman-Quetta Railway link. Pakistan army send reinforcements to the area and retook the pass after a week’s fighting.

1950-51: Three Afghan-led Lashkars attacked Pakistani areas across Durand Line in Khyber Agency. Afghanistan declared the miscreants as ‘Freedom Fighters’ and used its official Radio and Press for non-stop Pashtunistan propaganda. Pakistan responded by using ‘go slow’ approach on Afghanistan’s trade transit routes.

16 October 1951: Pakistani PM Liaquat Ali Khan was shot dead in Rawalpindi by an Afghan national Said Akbar Babrak. Afghanistan’s govt disowned his act.

30 March 1955: Pakistan’s diplomatic missions in Kabul, Qandahar, Jalalabad were attacked at the behest of Afghan govt and Pashtunistan flag was hoisted on the chancery of Pakistan Embassy in Kabul.

September 1959: Afghan King Zahir Shah and PM Sardar Daud reaffirmed their support for Pashtunistan.

13. September 1960: Afghan army troops and militias attacked Bajaur. The attack was repulsed by Bajauri tribesmen with help of SSG forces from Cherat.

-----------------------------------

Now i totally understand this could be one sided propaganda and i managed to verify many of the above mentioned incidents like Afghanis opposing Pakistan, Pashtunistan movement, border dispute, murder of Liaqat Ali Khan by Afghani (even i was surprised).

I only posted half of what i read, there were many other eye opening incidents but it would make this post way too long so i stopped there. In short, there was decades of history in Pak-Afghan relationship so let's not just pick and choose 80s.

The Afghans started this proxy ** way back in the 60s through the 70s constantly even after being warned.

Educate yourself a bit. Now Russia and Iran openly support the Taliban and have been accused of doing so numerous times by the US and the Afghan themselves. A simple google search will bring you reputable news about this.

The blame goes to everyone from the West to mass killing the Afghans to the Afghans themselves. Dostum is Northern Alliance's biggest general yet to this day carries out rape, murder, mass killings, theft of public money, looting. So does every single Northern Alliance warlord who is backed, funded and run by the Afghan government. Is that our fault too?

Have some perspective before mouthing off the usual nonsense.

But but what about the peoples' aspirations (ahem Kashmir cough cough)!!

The only you can change the mindset is to change their perception,first get Pakistan's economy in order, expand education and invite lots of Afghan students to study in Pakistan. Allow them to mix freely and learn the people and culture. When they go back and eventually become ministers and civil servants they will have good intentions and make decisions that benefit you as well.

There may have been hate between Afghanistan and Pakistan right after the inception of Pakistan which would have been similar to the animosity between Pakistan and India. However, the hate between Afghanistan and was not strong and had been fizzling out since then.

The anti-Pakistan sentiments became stronger due to Pakistani interference in Afghanistan in the 1980s and 1990s.

Similarly, anti-Pakistan sentiments in India became stronger and reached boiling point when civilians became the target of alleged Pakistan-backed militants, be it the Indian parliament attack or the siege and murder of dozens during Mumbai attacks.

The driving force behind anti-Pakistan sentiments in both India and Afghanistan is alleged Pakistan-backed terror.

 

[Pakistanian]

There may have been hate between Afghanistan and Pakistan right after the inception of Pakistan which would have been similar to the animosity between Pakistan and India. However, the hate between Afghanistan and was not strong and had been fizzling out since then.

The anti-Pakistan sentiments became stronger due to Pakistani interference in Afghanistan in the 1980s and 1990s.

Similarly, anti-Pakistan sentiments in India became stronger and reached boiling point when civilians became the target of alleged Pakistan-backed militants, be it the Indian parliament attack or the siege and murder of dozens during Mumbai attacks.

The driving force behind anti-Pakistan sentiments in both India and Afghanistan is alleged Pakistan-backed terror.

Oh my goodness, did you just ignore that entire post from [MENTION=135]Waseem[/MENTION] about Afghanistan's interference in Pakistan? That's the driving force behind Pakistan's animosity and distrust towards Afghanistan or are YOU saying that only Afghanistan has a right to meddle in Pakistan, foment violence and insurgencies but Pakistan can not retaliate in kind?

The 1980s and 1990s were avoidable had Afghanistan not tried to harm Pakistan since 1947. You're being intellectually dishonest by ignoring that entire post by Waseem.

 

[saeedhk]

Oh my goodness, did you just ignore that entire post from [MENTION=135]Waseem[/MENTION] about Afghanistan's interference in Pakistan? That's the driving force behind Pakistan's animosity and distrust towards Afghanistan or are YOU saying that only Afghanistan has a right to meddle in Pakistan, foment violence and insurgencies but Pakistan can not retaliate in kind?

The 1980s and 1990s were avoidable had Afghanistan not tried to harm Pakistan since 1947. You're being intellectually dishonest by ignoring that entire post by Waseem.

I am not ignoring his points. What I am saying is that all those events are not as significant as they are being made to look like. These sort of skirmishes are minuscule when compared to the grand scheme of things.

 

[Pakistanian]

I am not ignoring his points. What I am saying is that all those events are not as significant as they are being made to look like. These sort of skirmishes are minuscule when compared to the grand scheme of things.

Lmaoo @ "not significant", they were signifcant to be a concern to Pakistan, signifcant to warrant action. These aren't just "skirmishes" , so Afghan sponsor of terrorism, assasinations, separatist militants are just "skirmishes" but when Pakistan does the same it's terrorism to you guys el oh el, y'all need to be consistent, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[saeedhk]

Lmaoo @ "not significant", they were signifcant to be a concern to Pakistan, signifcant to warrant action. These aren't just "skirmishes" , so Afghan sponsor of terrorism, assasinations, separatist militants are just "skirmishes" but when Pakistan does the same it's terrorism to you guys el oh el, y'all need to be consistent, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Thousands of Afghan dead bodies are the justification. There is no bigger justification than dead bodies.

 

[Pakistanian]

Thousands of Afghan dead bodies are the justification. There is no bigger justification than dead bodies.

So thousands of dead Pakistanis are your justification for Afghan meddling in Pakistan. Well alright, your cognitive dissonance is apparent.

 

[Loralai]

We are at our best in this delusional thread.

Our principal enemy is our own Establishment which has crippled our economy, ruined our reputation and made us look like a joke on the international stage. Our Establishment played a key role in ruining Afghanistan and was one of only two governments to recognise Taliban government, which we supported for our own reasons and continue to do so even though we have been told not to.

Afghan people, like our own, are peace loving and kind. Maybe if we tried to understand their perspectives we could rekindle our natural friendship.

 

[warcry]

But but what about the peoples' aspirations (ahem Kashmir cough cough)!!

The only you can change the mindset is to change their perception,first get Pakistan's economy in order, expand education and invite lots of Afghan students to study in Pakistan. Allow them to mix freely and learn the people and culture. When they go back and eventually become ministers and civil servants they will have good intentions and make decisions that benefit you as well.

every afghani would kiss your hand for a pakistani nationality, that place is currently hellhole, and no refugee wants to go back to afghanistan.
It is in pakistan's interests to bring peace and prosperity in the region that is currently afghanistan to open trade routes into central asia and pakistan should assume a direct role in doing so.

 

[warcry]

We are at our best in this delusional thread.

Our principal enemy is our own Establishment which has crippled our economy, ruined our reputation and made us look like a joke on the international stage. Our Establishment played a key role in ruining Afghanistan and was one of only two governments to recognise Taliban government, which we supported for our own reasons and continue to do so even though we have been told not to.

Afghan people, like our own, are peace loving and kind. Maybe if we tried to understand their perspectives we could rekindle our natural friendship.

i suggest you move to afghanistan and see for yourself how peace loving and kind the afghan people are with your own eyes.

If our establishment played a key role in ruining afghanistan, then Excellent good job guys. this what the afghans derve for pushtunistan. Pakistan recognized the Taliban, as the Taliban were considered less likely to be cause problems to us. better for some religious movement to rule afghan than a secular one that would press for pashtunistan.

and when the US leave the region, the Taliban will return to power and US puppets in the the kabul regime will be no where to be seen

 

[aukhan]

These Afghani snakes are the real enemy. They are more venomous than Indians. We should protect our border with the same seriousness we show protecting our east border.

 

[Pakistanian]

We are at our best in this delusional thread.

Our principal enemy is our own Establishment which has crippled our economy, ruined our reputation and made us look like a joke on the international stage. Our Establishment played a key role in ruining Afghanistan and was one of only two governments to recognise Taliban government, which we supported for our own reasons and continue to do so even though we have been told not to.

Lmaoo you're the one that's delusional and dishonest on this thread, you're well aware of history but ignoring it cause it doesn't fit your agenda.

Afghan people, like our own, are peace loving and kind. Maybe if we tried to understand their perspectives we could rekindle our natural friendship.

If you even had elementary comprehension skills you would know we aren't talking about the "afghan people" but their government and their establishment whom you're a supporter of. Perhaps if Afghanistan didn't have irrendentist desires and didn't try initiating ethnic civil war in Pakistan then their country could've avoided 50 years of ethnic civil war.

Idk what "natural friendship" you're speaking of, Afghanistan doesn't want a "natural friendship" with a bunch of "daalkhors" who live on a land they feel is entitled to them . You might feel some kinship since you claim some "ancestry" from Loralai so have a soft sport for Afghans but the rest of us don't care .

 

[Pakistanian]

i suggest you move to afghanistan and see for yourself how peace loving and kind the afghan people are with your own eyes.

If our establishment played a key role in ruining afghanistan, then Excellent good job guys. this what the afghans derve for pushtunistan. Pakistan recognized the Taliban, as the Taliban were considered less likely to be cause problems to us. better for some religious movement to rule afghan than a secular one that would press for pashtunistan.

and when the US leave the region, the Taliban will return to power and US puppets in the the kabul regime will be no where to be seen

Most Talibans were Afghan anyways, which [MENTION=142317]Loralai[/MENTION] conviently ignores. No organization can ever take root in any country if doesn't have at least some support base, most Pashtuns in Afghanistan viewed them as liberators serving their interests, they saw these people as sharing the same blood and language as them and that's why they joined them. If you go on other history forums you can read posts from Afghan-Pashtuns (who are also anti-Pakistan) who detail the war crimes the Soviets and the northern alliance committed against Pashtuns in Eastern and especially Southern Afghanistan, the rapes and mass murders drove many poor Afghans to join the only organization with any chance of winning the war as they had international support. This Loralai character will ignore that because he's a marxist, he probably supports the socialist regime in Kabul that requested the Soviets to takeover Afghanistan, he probably sees them as heroes even though they were raping and mass killing his "pashtun brothers" whom he claims to share blood with. (Probably fabricated ancestry).

 

[Pakpak]

There may have been hate between Afghanistan and Pakistan right after the inception of Pakistan which would have been similar to the animosity between Pakistan and India. However, the hate between Afghanistan and was not strong and had been fizzling out since then.

The anti-Pakistan sentiments became stronger due to Pakistani interference in Afghanistan in the 1980s and 1990s.

Similarly, anti-Pakistan sentiments in India became stronger and reached boiling point when civilians became the target of alleged Pakistan-backed militants, be it the Indian parliament attack or the siege and murder of dozens during Mumbai attacks.

The driving force behind anti-Pakistan sentiments in both India and Afghanistan is alleged Pakistan-backed terror.

Its clear you didn't read mine or Waseem's post and are intent on babbling on.

 

[Waseem]

There may have been hate between Afghanistan and Pakistan right after the inception of Pakistan which would have been similar to the animosity between Pakistan and India. However, the hate between Afghanistan and was not strong and had been fizzling out since then.

The anti-Pakistan sentiments became stronger due to Pakistani interference in Afghanistan in the 1980s and 1990s.

Similarly, anti-Pakistan sentiments in India became stronger and reached boiling point when civilians became the target of alleged Pakistan-backed militants, be it the Indian parliament attack or the siege and murder of dozens during Mumbai attacks.

The driving force behind anti-Pakistan sentiments in both India and Afghanistan is alleged Pakistan-backed terror.

Fizzling out? Come on bro, at least read what i posted. I actually reduced it so it's not long and boring otherwise 70s were also full of adventure. You can downplay this but declaring war on your neighboring state and killing their first Prime Minister isn't really minor skirmish.
Even what happened in 80s and 90s wasn't as simple as Pakistan going there to kill innocent Afghans, series of events and American-Russian war played MAJOR part, Pakistan did make blunders but it was to ensure Pakistan friendly government in Afghanistan which was direct result of what happened 3 decades prior to that. Having said that ALL Russia, America, Pakistan and internal Afghan groups were to be blamed. More recently Afghans have been involved in worst possible attacks in Pakistan's history, from APS to Sri Lankan team attack to hundreds suicide attacks.

Your stance on Afghanistan and India is so apologetic, you can be liberal and balanced at the same time so no need to self hate. Kashmir dispute played major part in our issues with India from Day1 and who can blame Pakistan? A region with at least 80% Muslim population should have always been part of Pakistan. Also, Indians proudly own the separation of Pakistan which resulted in deaths of thousands (not saying India was entirely to be blamed but they played HUGE part). Pakistan Armed forces have made blunders but don't be so naive to think they just loved interfering in other countries for no reason, they faced MASSIVE challenges from all corners from Day1 mainly due to border disputes.

 

[Asim_khan]

My my, someone has gone into full anti-Pak mode since his beloved Jibran was attacked.

 

[AdamM97]

We are at our best in this delusional thread.

Our principal enemy is our own Establishment which has crippled our economy, ruined our reputation and made us look like a joke on the international stage. Our Establishment played a key role in ruining Afghanistan and was one of only two governments to recognise Taliban government, which we supported for our own reasons and continue to do so even though we have been told not to.

Afghan people, like our own, are peace loving and kind. Maybe if we tried to understand their perspectives we could rekindle our natural friendship.

Our "natural friendship" is only possible when the Afghans stop whining about the Durand Line. Afghanistan not recognizing us at the UN, supporting separatists and meddling in our politics since 1947 but still, bad Pakistani establishment bad.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Pray tell me how you think Pakistan's borders are logical?
Pakistan is a formulation of British India, that had nothing to do with Afghanistan so they believe the British had no right to carve up historic pieces of Afghan territory.

Excuse me? Ever heard of the Indus Valley? Pakistan might be a new political entity, but the Trans-Indus region has had human activity since around 6000 BCE. The people of this land have a unique bond - both culturally, genetically and historically...it's the Indus River that binds this country together and has bound our people together for over a millennia. Take your crackpot colonial history and put in the trash where it belongs. Afghanistan literally was made in 1919.

In regards to population, Afghan fertility rate is 4.5 and Pakistan's is 3.55. For the half decade ending in 2025 projected fertility in Afghanistan is 3.85 and Pakistan 3.25. Afghanistan fertility rate is reducing faster than Pakistans.

Huh?

2000
Pakistan = 4.58
Afghanistan = 7.49

2005
Pakistan = 4.07
Afghanistan = 6.83

2010
Pakistan = 3.86
Afghanistan = 7.49

2016
Pakistan = 3.48
Afghanistan = 5.82

This flies in the face of the fact that US defense contractors are basically basking in the sun soaked with rich government contracts under Trump.
You dont really understand Akhand Bharat , it is not a geographic space , it wasnt one ever since Alexander invaded 2000 years ago but a metaphor or frame of reference to the kingdoms of Magadh and Gandhara. Even Indians know it cannot be realized.

Akhand Bharat is a myth that never even existed. When Alexander invaded, he invaded a territory what Herotodus called INDIA. Do you know where the word India comes from? Sindhu.

Sindhu is the Vedic Sanskrit name for the Indus. In ancient Persian (Avestan), Sanskirt "S" sounding words were pronounced as "H"...thus Sindhu became Hindhu. When this reached Greek, the root word from Hindhu was taken as IND and later in Latin formed IND-IA.

India is the Greek/Latin name for Sindhu...Sindhu (Sindh) and Saptha Sindhu (Punjab) are considered the Vedic holy land.

What's more interesting is that the Vedic Indus despised the Ganges, so much so that stories about Indra defeating Gangetic gods was a regularly occurrence in the Vedas. The Vedic Indus priests referred to the Ganges as DASYU VARTA...a land of traitors.

Vedic faith is not the same as Puranic Brahmanism that was formed in the Ganges. These two ideologies are different.

Now to China,Pakistan is treading on dangerous waters taking loans from the Chinese , just ask Sri Lanka or numerous African countries who fell into China's notorious debt trap.
Likewise, Pakistan thinks it can generate revenue off of Gwadar port, but go into default and China will take ownership of the port and its revenues, just like what happened to the Hambantota port in SL.

Nice conspiracy theory. Loosen up the tin foil hat while your at it.

Afghan anger towards Pakistan stems from their treatment as refugees.

No it doesn't, it stems from a racial hatred that Afghans have always had. Ask the Iranians and Tajiks, they'll tell you the same. Afghans are a nuisance everywhere they go. When they're not busy accusing Pakistan or Iran of wanting to destroy them, you'll find them fighting among themselves.

It is not a secret that Pakistan took 2 million refugees, but it is also true that Pakistan received enormous funding from the UNHCR for supporting those refugees, (akin US payments for the war on terror) which was siphoned off due to corruption leaving the people at the mercy of crooks, gangs and criminals paying them just to survive.

Please provide evidence of this accusation. Also, nobody had a pistol pointed at Afghans forcing them to stay in these camps. Don't like it? Go back to Afghanistan.

Before you issue blanket statements about Afghanistan being a basket case economy , i'd caution you, similar statements were made of Bangladesh. Now Bangladesh is developing faster than Pakistan with much better human development indicators.

Umm, Pakistan is much larger than Bangladesh's economy and will be for the foreseeable future, which is basically a one trick pony whose entire eggs are in the textile industry. It's also one of the largest recipients of foreign aid in the world. For the stability it has, Bangladesh should be growing much quicker, but isn't because of it's corrupt bureaucracy, while Pakistan has relatively done well economically despite the fact half the country was in a state of war (War on Terror). How can you even compare the two countries? Pakistan's GDP growth rate has been stable from 2009 up until 2015...and has slowly risen again.

Bangladesh is quite a dire situation and many people are simply aloof to it. They have failed to address 3 major issues. First, the reputation of Bangladesh's textiles industry after the factory fire/collapse made a huge negative impression and western public pressure forced many companies to impose stricter rules, which cost more money. Hence the bottom line was being cut and some companies opted to move next door to Myanmar or Laos. Second is Bangladesh's failure to diversify its economy beyond textiles. If the above trend is not reversed, the next few years are looking bleak. The third and most damning issue is the viability of Bangladesh as a nation state itself. If the current ocean level projections are correct then by 2050 around 17% of Bangladesh will be inundated with ocean water which will displace 18 million people. Good luck with that.

Afghanistan till the 70s was prosperous and very Westernized, there are restrictive factors but they could easily get back on the road to progress under the right leadership leaving Pakistan in the dust.

Afghanistan was a communist trash bin that consisted of a small elite who ruled everything while the average Afghan suffered in misery from outdated Stalinist policies. What in the world are you even talking about? Afghanistan's entire trade comes through Chaman and Torkham border crossings. Pakistan shuts it down, and Afghanistan ceases to remain a viable state. Apni aukat mein raho.

By 2050, Pakistan (with its current low growth rate) will become the 20th largest economy in the world. And this doesn't even take into consideration CPEC or CAREC

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

About a trillion years back or something our KPK and FATA regions were part of Afghanistan. Then the Brits come in and take these regions making it a part of British India. After the formation of Pakistan these regions naturally become a part of Pakistan, today these backward Afghans don't like this at all. Despite their Pashtunistan dream dying decades back they still think our Pathans are eager to become part of their hell hole when in reality it is the exact opposite that is true. Just see the aggressive wicket taking celebrations of Shaheen Afridi versus Afghanistan to see where the heart of our Pathans is. That was a big slap on the face Manzoor Pashteen and his followers.

Umm...Afghanistan was formed in 1747, so where are you getting this "trillion years back" mumbo jumbo from?

Afghanistan literally appears in the 1700s...somehow were supposed to ignore over 6000 years of Indus history?

It's also worth mentioning, the largest population of Pashtuns live in Pakistan.

Shortly after demarcation of the Durand Line, the British began connecting the region on its side of the Durand Line to the North Western Railway Network (which Pakistan Railways inherited in 1947).

Concurrently, Afridi tribesmen began rising up in arms against the British, creating a zone of instability between Peshawar and the Durand Line. Further, frequent skirmishes and wars between the Afghan state and the British Raj starting in the 1870s made travel between Peshawar and Jalalabad almost impossible.

As a result, travel across the boundary was almost entirely halted. Further, the British recruited tens of thousands of local Pashtuns into the British Colonial Army and stationed them throughout its colonies in Asia. This world exposure, combined with the ease of travel eastwards into Punjab and Sindh and the difficulty of travel towards Afghanistan, led many Pashtuns to orient themselves away from Kabul.

By the time of Pakistan’s independence movement, political opinion was divided into those who supported a homeland for Muslims in the shape of Pakistan and those who supported reunification with Afghanistan and a minority who supported the idea of a “united India”. Prominent Pashtun nationalists such as Abdul Ghaffar Khan and his Khudai Khidmatgar movement held this view, but when the idea failed to gain any support in the territories of the Indus region, Ghaffar Khan pledged allegiance to Pakistan and started campaigning for the autonomy of Pakistan's Pashtuns.

This highlighted the extent to which infrastructure and instability together began to erode Pashtun self-identification with Afghanistan.

This is the reason Afghanistan has issues with Pakistan.

 

[AdamM97]

Umm...Afghanistan was formed in 1747, so where are you getting this "trillion years back" mumbo jumbo from?

Afghanistan literally appears in the 1700s...somehow were supposed to ignore over 6000 years of Indus history?

It's also worth mentioning, the largest population of Pashtuns live in Pakistan.

Shortly after demarcation of the Durand Line, the British began connecting the region on its side of the Durand Line to the North Western Railway Network (which Pakistan Railways inherited in 1947).

Concurrently, Afridi tribesmen began rising up in arms against the British, creating a zone of instability between Peshawar and the Durand Line. Further, frequent skirmishes and wars between the Afghan state and the British Raj starting in the 1870s made travel between Peshawar and Jalalabad almost impossible.

As a result, travel across the boundary was almost entirely halted. Further, the British recruited tens of thousands of local Pashtuns into the British Colonial Army and stationed them throughout its colonies in Asia. This world exposure, combined with the ease of travel eastwards into Punjab and Sindh and the difficulty of travel towards Afghanistan, led many Pashtuns to orient themselves away from Kabul.

By the time of Pakistan’s independence movement, political opinion was divided into those who supported a homeland for Muslims in the shape of Pakistan and those who supported reunification with Afghanistan and a minority who supported the idea of a “united India”. Prominent Pashtun nationalists such as Abdul Ghaffar Khan and his Khudai Khidmatgar movement held this view, but when the idea failed to gain any support in the territories of the Indus region, Ghaffar Khan pledged allegiance to Pakistan and started campaigning for the autonomy of Pakistan's Pashtuns.

This highlighted the extent to which infrastructure and instability together began to erode Pashtun self-identification with Afghanistan.

This is the reason Afghanistan has issues with Pakistan.

Yeah never really understood the logic of these ”Loya Afghanistan” people. I mean if controlling an area in the past makes it rightfully yours, then why don’t the English give England back to the Italians since the Romans ruled over them 2000 years ago.

 

[Zahid87]

The idea of a natural friendship is fanciful.

Historically, the area which now comprises of Afghanistan has never been able to survive as a state by itself. The land is harsh, and even now there are little natural resources (e.g. oil) to allow the country to sustain itself.

So, whenever these guys would fall short of food or money, they would march across the Khyber, and raid Punjab and other parts of Northern India.

Its the fault of our own warped history that we don't mind the brutal 'skirmishes' hundreds of years ago that caused actual massacres - instead we honour Ghazni, Ghauri, Abdali et all, but cry that the skirmishes after 1947 are enough to sow the seeds of an everlasting hatred.

 

[muradbaksh]

Lol get your history right bro.

Babar was never the ruler of Kabul and India together. In fact he was kicked out of Kabul and he got control of indian areas to make them a base for an eventual campaign to win back Kabul. But he was never successfully

He never ruled both. He had deep attachment to Kabul and got buried there but there wasn’t an overlap

Babur conquered Kabul at the age of 19 in the year 1504. He was driven out of Samarkand and Andijan by Shaibaan Khan and the Uzbeks. Kabul at that time was ruled by Babur's cousin, who after dying was succeeded by a very young heir who could not control the nobles. The Arghuns, attempted or did capture Kabul, and Babur seized the opportunity captured Kabul and expelled the Arghuns. Eventually Babur captured Ghazni, Badakshan, Kandahar, Kunduz, and Balkh. This was the extent of Babur's Afghan kingdom before venturing into his 5th and final invasion of Hindustan in 1526.

The Mughal's held Kabul, Ghazni, and the surrounding areas bordering Badakshan, Balkh, and Kandahar from 1504 until 1739, till the city was captured by Nadir Shah.

 

[AdamM97]

The idea of a natural friendship is fanciful.

Historically, the area which now comprises of Afghanistan has never been able to survive as a state by itself. The land is harsh, and even now there are little natural resources (e.g. oil) to allow the country to sustain itself.

So, whenever these guys would fall short of food or money, they would march across the Khyber, and raid Punjab and other parts of Northern India.

Its the fault of our own warped history that we don't mind the brutal 'skirmishes' hundreds of years ago that caused actual massacres - instead we honour Ghazni, Ghauri, Abdali et all, but cry that the skirmishes after 1947 are enough to sow the seeds of an everlasting hatred.

Yeah, the only reason Turks and Afghans wanted to invade India was because of it’s riches. Most of them looted and left (ex. Timur). The Mughals and the Delhi Sultanate were exceptions.

 

[Zahid87]

Yeah, the only reason Turks and Afghans wanted to invade India was because of it’s riches. Most of them looted and left (ex. Timur). The Mughals and the Delhi Sultanate were exceptions.

Point being that the Afghans, if left to their own state, will always look to push beyond their borders - its what they have historically had to resort to survive. Even now with the opium trade, they are still unable to make ends meet.

So you have a state on your borders that will forever be restless. No natural friendship there.

The state of Pakistan is also not blameless - but you would argue that the state has simply been proactive in trying to exert control over a people that have historically never let the plains of Punjab rest in peace.

 

[PakLFC]

Umm...Afghanistan was formed in 1747, so where are you getting this "trillion years back" mumbo jumbo from?

Afghanistan literally appears in the 1700s...somehow were supposed to ignore over 6000 years of Indus history?

It's also worth mentioning, the largest population of Pashtuns live in Pakistan.

Shortly after demarcation of the Durand Line, the British began connecting the region on its side of the Durand Line to the North Western Railway Network (which Pakistan Railways inherited in 1947).

Concurrently, Afridi tribesmen began rising up in arms against the British, creating a zone of instability between Peshawar and the Durand Line. Further, frequent skirmishes and wars between the Afghan state and the British Raj starting in the 1870s made travel between Peshawar and Jalalabad almost impossible.

As a result, travel across the boundary was almost entirely halted. Further, the British recruited tens of thousands of local Pashtuns into the British Colonial Army and stationed them throughout its colonies in Asia. This world exposure, combined with the ease of travel eastwards into Punjab and Sindh and the difficulty of travel towards Afghanistan, led many Pashtuns to orient themselves away from Kabul.

By the time of Pakistan’s independence movement, political opinion was divided into those who supported a homeland for Muslims in the shape of Pakistan and those who supported reunification with Afghanistan and a minority who supported the idea of a “united India”. Prominent Pashtun nationalists such as Abdul Ghaffar Khan and his Khudai Khidmatgar movement held this view, but when the idea failed to gain any support in the territories of the Indus region, Ghaffar Khan pledged allegiance to Pakistan and started campaigning for the autonomy of Pakistan's Pashtuns.

This highlighted the extent to which infrastructure and instability together began to erode Pashtun self-identification with Afghanistan.

This is the reason Afghanistan has issues with Pakistan.

Whatever!! Fact is that Pak gave refuge to these ungrateful Afghans which is why I love to see them being thrown out of Pak! They may have controlled parts of what became Pak when dinosaurs were roaming around but not anymore. Afghans and Pathans are not synonymous with each other at all, this is something Afghans don't seem to understand. It is not about Pathans at all when we have more then they do. Never mind all the history from centuries back....by this logic the white man should be leaving America in hundreds of millions!! Afghans after the Russian invasion became to addicted to war that it seems impossible for them to live without it now. In the 1960's when they were a rather progressive people Pak had much lesser problems with them then suddenly after the Talibanisation of Afghanistan they start demanding parts of Pak! Ask the people living in KPK and FATA today what they think of Afghanostan!! Those Pak Pathans who love Afghanistan are welcome to hop along the line to Kabul or Kandahar.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Whatever!! Fact is that Pak gave refuge to these ungrateful Afghans which is why I love to see them being thrown out of Pak! They may have controlled parts of what became Pak when dinosaurs were roaming around but not anymore. Afghans and Pathans are not synonymous with each other at all, this is something Afghans don't seem to understand. It is not about Pathans at all when we have more then they do. Never mind all the history from centuries back....by this logic the white man should be leaving America in hundreds of millions!! Afghans after the Russian invasion became to addicted to war that it seems impossible for them to live without it now. In the 1960's when they were a rather progressive people Pak had much lesser problems with them then suddenly after the Talibanisation of Afghanistan they start demanding parts of Pak! Ask the people living in KPK and FATA today what they think of Afghanostan!! Those Pak Pathans who love Afghanistan are welcome to hop along the line to Kabul or Kandahar.

Once again, you fail to correct your warped thinking. FATA doesn't even exist anymore, it's part of KP so that just goes to show how you know nothing about our region.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a "Pak Pashtun" and an "Afghan Pashtun". There is only one Pashtun ethnicity and the majority of them live in Pakistan. I don't understand why Pakistanis have trouble differentiating ethnicity from nationality.

Nationality = Pakistani
Ethnicity = Pashtun, Punjabi, Sindhi, Baloch, Kashmiri and countless others

Pakistan is a political identity, not an ethnicity. Pashtuns, Punjabis, Sindhis etc. have been around as nations for over a millennia and actually share a common bond...that bond is a common Indus heritage that stretches back to 3000 BCE.

Please understand we are a multicultural nation with many quams which came together to form Pakistan. Respect each quam, each language, each heritage please.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Yeah never really understood the logic of these ”Loya Afghanistan” people. I mean if controlling an area in the past makes it rightfully yours, then why don’t the English give England back to the Italians since the Romans ruled over them 2000 years ago.

Afghans generally are a confused people. I wouldn't take much of what they say seriously. They're convinced "nobody has ever invaded Afghanistan" - the Persian Empire, Alexander's Army and the Mongol invasion would all like to have a word.

Furthermore, Afghans just have this itch to want to blame others for their own faults. The distaste they have for Pakistan is also similar for Iran. They think both countries have conspired together to destroy them.

The only people who destroyed Afghanistan are Afghans themselves during communist rule between 1965 up until 1992. Pakistan or Iran shouldn't be blamed for wanting to contain that mess and doing whatever was deemed necessary.

 

[USaqaf]

Excuse me? Ever heard of the Indus Valley? Pakistan might be a new political entity, but the Trans-Indus region has had human activity since around 6000 BCE. The people of this land have a unique bond - both culturally, genetically and historically...it's the Indus River that binds this country together and has bound our people together for over a millennia. Take your crackpot colonial history and put in the trash where it belongs. Afghanistan literally was made in 1919.



Huh?

2000
Pakistan = 4.58
Afghanistan = 7.49

2005
Pakistan = 4.07
Afghanistan = 6.83

2010
Pakistan = 3.86
Afghanistan = 7.49

2016
Pakistan = 3.48
Afghanistan = 5.82

Huh indeed , my stats are directly from the World Bank, dont know which rag you copied from or made up most likely.

No it doesn't, it stems from a racial hatred that Afghans have always had. Ask the Iranians and Tajiks, they'll tell you the same. Afghans are a nuisance everywhere they go. When they're not busy accusing Pakistan or Iran of wanting to destroy them, you'll find them fighting among themselves.
Please provide evidence of this accusation. Also, nobody had a pistol pointed at Afghans forcing them to stay in these camps. Don't like it? Go back to Afghanistan.

Wrong on many counts, thats YOUR interpretation, go ask an Afghan , they will concur with my answer. I already told you, they were at the mercy of gangs and thugs, they couldn't leave and had to pay to just survive.

Afghanistan was a communist trash bin that consisted of a small elite who ruled everything while the average Afghan suffered in misery from outdated Stalinist policies.

... are you having a laugh? Pakistan has no business talking about elitists, its very foundation is built on it.

By 2050, Pakistan (with its current low growth rate) will become the 20th largest economy in the world. And this doesn't even take into consideration CPEC or CAREC

We shall see, perhaps it might grow slower, or others might grow faster.

 

[Musakhel]

Said it years ago

Afghans are the real enemy.

Indians are estranged brothers with whom we have bad relations and a major disagreement.

Afghans are our enemies

Indians may be your brothers, but remember we Share religion with Afghans.

 

[sjahmed23]

Indians may be your brothers, but remember we Share religion with Afghans.

Only Pakistanis care about that, no other muslim country would go out of its way for Pakistan because we share religion. We are more closer to the Indians in culture and thinking than Afghanis or any other muslim country.

 

[Knight_Rider]

Speaking of Facts:

- Only 16% of Pak population is Pakhtun, who share ethnicity with Afghanistan (and also partially with Pashtuns settled in India).
-The rest however share closer cultural, ethnic and linguistic ties with Indians.

Afghans have also been raiders, Invaders and war loving people. Its only that in 16th-17th century the technology moved on and they couldn’t compete with the Gun powder of the new European masters, otherwise they would still be carrying on with their natural aggression in some shape and form.

The more we distance ourselves from Afghans, the better it is.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Speaking of Facts:

- Only 16% of Pak population is Pakhtun, who share ethnicity with Afghanistan (and also partially with Pashtuns settled in India).
-The rest however share closer cultural, ethnic and linguistic ties with Indians.

Afghans have also been raiders, Invaders and war loving people. Its only that in 16th-17th century the technology moved on and they couldn’t compete with the Gun powder of the new European masters, otherwise they would still be carrying on with their natural aggression in some shape and form.

The more we distance ourselves from Afghans, the better it is.

Lol joke of the day.

People in this thread are delusional.

Afghans may not be our friends, but to suggest Indians like us more, or that we should be friends with them is a joke.

They are parterning with Afghanistan hand in hand, to take on Pakistan.

They are both against Pakistan. So I fail to understand why people keep bringing up similarities with India culturally or in any other way.

They are the ones funding and masterminding all of the proxies killing our children, Afghans are just the puppets.

Punjabis need to realize that if they have soft corners for India because of their Punjab, then Pakistani pashtuns are allowed to have a soft corner for Afghanistan.

 

[PaceOverEverything]

I'm not certain this is a constructive discussion. I hope for further unity amongst the ummat. I realize that Pakistan feels it's done more than enough without being reciprocated, adjustments could be made to foreign policy with the knowledge there has been a lack of perceived reciprocation in the past, however labeling an entire country with inflammatory labels is not productive. Pakistan needs to find ways to work on identifying common interests and pursuing them with co-ordination of all entities who wish to work with Pakistan.

 

[PakLFC]

Once again, you fail to correct your warped thinking. FATA doesn't even exist anymore, it's part of KP so that just goes to show how you know nothing about our region.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a "Pak Pashtun" and an "Afghan Pashtun". There is only one Pashtun ethnicity and the majority of them live in Pakistan. I don't understand why Pakistanis have trouble differentiating ethnicity from nationality.

Nationality = Pakistani
Ethnicity = Pashtun, Punjabi, Sindhi, Baloch, Kashmiri and countless others

Pakistan is a political identity, not an ethnicity. Pashtuns, Punjabis, Sindhis etc. have been around as nations for over a millennia and actually share a common bond...that bond is a common Indus heritage that stretches back to 3000 BCE.

Please understand we are a multicultural nation with many quams which came together to form Pakistan. Respect each quam, each language, each heritage please.

I know it is a part of the KPK but use FATA out of habit so get over yourself thinking you know it all! As long as you know what region I am talking about it is all that matters. Pakistani Pashtuns are those born and living in Pak where as Afghan ones are either refugee's or living there. Next you will talk more nonsense telling me there is no difference between and Scotsman and an Englishman as both are British. You are the one who has difficulty here not the rest. It is the same difference as Pak Punjabis and Indian Punjabis in case it missed you.

Pakistan is not a political density but a country and nationality with a separate passport. I don't even know if there is a thing called an Afghanistani passport. So if you admit that Pakistanis are from the groups you mentioned then we are not Afghans. There are Uzbeks and Tajiks in Afghanistan as well sport! I know exactly waht I am talking about, you are the confused one here. Understand the difference between Pak Pashtuns and Afgan Pashtuns today is the same as Pak Punjabis and Indian Punjabis.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Only Pakistanis care about that, no other muslim country would go out of its way for Pakistan because we share religion. We are more closer to the Indians in culture and thinking than Afghanis or any other muslim country.

You might be, not the majority of Pakistanis. Thanks.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

I know it is a part of the KPK but use FATA out of habit so get over yourself thinking you know it all! As long as you know what region I am talking about it is all that matters. Pakistani Pashtuns are those born and living in Pak where as Afghan ones are either refugee's or living there. Next you will talk more nonsense telling me there is no difference between and Scotsman and an Englishman as both are British. You are the one who has difficulty here not the rest. It is the same difference as Pak Punjabis and Indian Punjabis in case it missed you.

Ethnically and genetically there is no difference between a "Indian" Punjabi (they shouldn't have even joined India in 1947, but that's another discussion) and a Pakistani Punjabi. Same with Afghan and Pakistani Pashtun. The only difference is the nationality. Overall, Afghan Pashtuns don't have as much ill will towards Pakistan as do the Farsi/Dari speakers.

Pakistan is not a political density but a country and nationality with a separate passport.

That's exactly what a political entity is.

I don't even know if there is a thing called an Afghanistani passport.

Every nation on earth has a passport.

So if you admit that Pakistanis are from the groups you mentioned then we are not Afghans.

When did I ever state Pashtuns from Pakistan are "Afghans"? Afghans is a nationality, not a ethnicity. You seem highly confused.

There are Uzbeks and Tajiks in Afghanistan as well sport!

And?

I know exactly waht I am talking about, you are the confused one here. Understand the difference between Pak Pashtuns and Afgan Pashtuns today is the same as Pak Punjabis and Indian Punjabis.

Understand the difference between NATIONALITY (Pakistani, Afghan etc.) and ETHNICITY (Pashtun, Punjabi etc.)

Thank you.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

I'm not certain this is a constructive discussion. I hope for further unity amongst the ummat. I realize that Pakistan feels it's done more than enough without being reciprocated, adjustments could be made to foreign policy with the knowledge there has been a lack of perceived reciprocation in the past, however labeling an entire country with inflammatory labels is not productive. Pakistan needs to find ways to work on identifying common interests and pursuing them with co-ordination of all entities who wish to work with Pakistan.

This Ummah nonsense doesn't exist. It's time for Pakistanis to start thinking about PAKISTAN FIRST and adopting an Indus nationalist ideology.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Speaking of Facts:

- Only 16% of Pak population is Pakhtun, who share ethnicity with Afghanistan (and also partially with Pashtuns settled in India).
-The rest however share closer cultural, ethnic and linguistic ties with Indians.

Sorry, but your hypothesis fails.

Afghans have also been raiders, Invaders and war loving people. Its only that in 16th-17th century the technology moved on and they couldn’t compete with the Gun powder of the new European masters, otherwise they would still be carrying on with their natural aggression in some shape and form. The more we distance ourselves from Afghans, the better it is.

Earth to whoever you are. Ever heard of Central Asia? It's a goldmine...it also happens to be landlocked. Some of those countries need our ports...vice versa, we need them to trade. The only way to get to Central Asia is through Afghanistan. So yes, we do need Afghanistan, otherwise CAREC will fail.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Huh indeed , my stats are directly from the World Bank, dont know which rag you copied from or made up most likely.

I got my statistics directly from the World Bank. I can see now why your reputation is in the trash bin on this forum. You don't seem too bright at all.


Source: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?locations=PK-AF

Wrong on many counts, thats YOUR interpretation, go ask an Afghan , they will concur with my answer. I already told you, they were at the mercy of gangs and thugs, they couldn't leave and had to pay to just survive.

Why should I ask an Afghan? I could careless what an Afghan thinks. I asked you show me evidence of Pakistan siphoning off funds and this is all you have to say? Next.

... are you having a laugh? Pakistan has no business talking about elitists, its very foundation is built on it.

The foundation of the country is built on freeing itself from British occupation and institutionalized discrimination against Muslims which the British employed after the 1857 War of Independence. I'd suggest you NOT debate on history, because I'll probably make you look like a fool and make you cry in two seconds.

We shall see, perhaps it might grow slower, or others might grow faster.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda...

 

[PakLFC]

Ethnically and genetically there is no difference between a "Indian" Punjabi (they shouldn't have even joined India in 1947, but that's another discussion) and a Pakistani Punjabi. Same with Afghan and Pakistani Pashtun. The only difference is the nationality. Overall, Afghan Pashtuns don't have as much ill will towards Pakistan as do the Farsi/Dari speakers.



That's exactly what a political entity is.


Every nation on earth has a passport.


When did I ever state Pashtuns from Pakistan are "Afghans"? Afghans is a nationality, not a ethnicity. You seem highly confused.


And?



Understand the difference between NATIONALITY (Pakistani, Afghan etc.) and ETHNICITY (Pashtun, Punjabi etc.)

Thank you.

I am scratching my head over your comments! So you admit that India and Pak Punjabi's are as different or similar as Pak and Afgan Pashtuns? Similarly many Pak Pashtuns claim ancestry from Afghanistan as well, so what? Point is that today they are Pakistani and were born on our side.

I have never seen an Afghan passport or what value it has if any.

So what exactly are you saying if not trying to force both Pashtun's together? My point is that they may have links yet both are different in terms of nationality. Do you agree or disagree? As for your "and" my point is that there are more Pashtun's in Pakistan then Afghanistan. Very few if any Pak Pasthun's have any love for Afghanistan if that is what you are implying despite historical ties with them.

Pakistani Pashthuns are Pakistani and Afghan Pasthtuns are Afghani. Afghan ones have been trying to lure Pak ones to Afghanistan or a Pashtunistan for a long time that will never succeeded.

 

[Musakhel]

Only Pakistanis care about that, no other muslim country would go out of its way for Pakistan because we share religion. We are more closer to the Indians in culture and thinking than Afghanis or any other muslim country.

You may be, but I am not.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

I am scratching my head over your comments! So you admit that India and Pak Punjabi's are as different or similar as Pak and Afgan Pashtuns? Similarly many Pak Pashtuns claim ancestry from Afghanistan as well, so what? Point is that today they are Pakistani and were born on our side.

Khuda ke bande dimag na kao mera. This is pretty simple:
Punjabis are Punjabis
Pashtuns are Pashtuns

Both are split between two countries. Punjabis are split between Pakistan (majority) and India (minority), while Pashtuns are split between Pakistan (majority) and Afghanistan (minority). That's all I'm saying.

I have never seen an Afghan passport or what value it has if any.

Teek hai yaara.

So what exactly are you saying if not trying to force both Pashtun's together?

What does "forcing both together" even mean? They follow the same ideology "Pashtunwali"...they are practically one ethnic group.

My point is that they may have links yet both are different in terms of nationality. Do you agree or disagree?

They are different in terms of nationality yes.

As for your "and" my point is that there are more Pashtun's in Pakistan then Afghanistan. Very few if any Pak Pasthun's have any love for Afghanistan if that is what you are implying despite historical ties with them.

Pakistanis in general don't have any love for Afghanistan as a country, but to claim that there is no similarity or bond between the Pashtun groups in both countries is preposterous. Again, you seem to be conflating Afghanistan as a nation state with Pashtuns. You need to stop doing that.

Pakistani Pashthuns are Pakistani and Afghan Pasthtuns are Afghani.

Yeah and?

Afghan ones have been trying to lure Pak ones to Afghanistan or a Pashtunistan for a long time that will never succeeded.

That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life. Pashtunistan would split Afghanistan is half as well, since the Farsi/Dari speakers would be against it. So remind me again why would any Afghan Pashtun support that? This is what happens when you don't differentiate NATIONALITY and ETHNICITY.

Afghan nationalists don't want Pashtunistan, they want a joke called "Loy Afghanistan"
All of Afghanistan + Balochistan, KP and Punjab up to Jhelum river (never going to happen).


Pasthun nationalists want Pashtunistan.
All Pashtun regions of Afghanistan and Pakistan combining into one landlocked state - the area in green (never going to happen)


And amused Pakistanis like to troll both of them with Loy Pakistan




Please calm down.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

BTW I happen to be Pashtun. You must be off your rocker if you think for one second we're going to be tricked or convinced into joining Afghanistan. Why would anybody join Afghanistan to begin with? How dumb do you think we are?

 

[Knight_Rider]

You might be, not the majority of Pakistanis. Thanks.

Ofcourse the majority of Pakistanis are. In many foreign countries Pakistanis are just labelled as Indians (by Angrez) because they cant distinguish between us. Majority of Pakistanis i.e. Punjabis, Sindhis and Muhajirs all have many commonalities with those living across the borders.

 

[Knight_Rider]

Sorry, but your hypothesis fails.
View attachment 93497



Earth to whoever you are. Ever heard of Central Asia? It's a goldmine...it also happens to be landlocked. Some of those countries need our ports...vice versa, we need them to trade. The only way to get to Central Asia is through Afghanistan. So yes, we do need Afghanistan, otherwise CAREC will fail.

View attachment 93498

Why is Central Asia a gold mine?

Its a sparsely populated and neglected part of the world, which has no importance than being the backwaters of ex soviet union. Yes there may be some Oil and gas in some of the countries bit it isn’t massive and also there are already other trade routes for these. Google China’s new silk route (of which Cpec is just one small tributary).

As for Afghanistan, the only thing they have to export are drugs, weapons and that 50000 rupees walla Carpet (that the finally sell for 500 rupees)...��

 

[sjahmed23]

You might be, not the majority of Pakistanis. Thanks.

Sure they are not, but don't majority speak Urdu which is like hindi? don't majority eat the same type of food as Indians? don't majority have like 3-5 day weddings like the Indians? don't majority play and watch the same sport as the Indians? Now please tell me what the majority do that is common with the Afghans besides religion.