Algerian woman denied French citizenship over handshake

[DeadBall]

Kinda agree with that, europeans have committed some of the worst crimes in human history, they have taken over the lands of other people, they have already overpopulated the earth and spread all over the world like a virus, their entire wealth and "development" is built on looting others and then they have the gall to preach morality and values to the rest of the world, absolutely pathetic

Nothing will happen if we stay in the past, the point is to improve the present. It is very easy to blame the past which would lead us down a never ending road all the way back to our primal ancestors.

 

[WildSwing]

Nothing will happen if we stay in the past, the point is to improve the present. It is very easy to blame the past which would lead us down a never ending road all the way back to our primal ancestors.

Nobody is staying in the past, but it is important to remind the virtue signaling, morality preaching europeans of their own heinous history. They have no right to judge or preach values to other societies.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Nobody is staying in the past, but it is important to remind the virtue signaling, morality preaching europeans of their own heinous history. They have no right to judge or preach values to other societies.

The present isn't any better. Lets help the brown folks against their dicators by bombing their brown babies and oh while we are there, lets take their oil too.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Lots of brown victimology in this thread.

Suits their purpose.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Can't speak regarding the whole French population but almost all of my interactions with them has been positive. Since I live in a city next to the border so both German and French is spoken and taught in schools in a 60 km radius. I also remember 5 years ago when I first went fishing and my German wasn't that good but they tried to speak English in the fishing supplies shop and then when I went to the makeshift kiosk at the Rhine for some food. I also travel to Strassbourg frequently and the people were all really nice.

I haven't been to France, even though I have considered it often, but that does confirm my impression of them. French people over here always seem polite and well behaved, I can't really imagine them being overtly racist.

 

[DW44]

Now lets get back to the real issue here. The issue of rights and freedoms and of choice of an individual which.....wait for it.... French republic claims to champion.

As does every country in the world except maybe Saudi Arabia. This is what the preamble to the Pakistani constitution says:

"The principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, as enunciated by Islam, shall be fully observed"

Off course it cheats a little by adding "as enunciated by Islam", leaving the state some wiggle room for denying its citizens freedom, equality and tolerant treatment and justifying it using Islamic edicts but my point stands, that every country pays lip service to "equality under the law and freedom of religion" but none actually deliver those in absolute terms, they all define what those terms mean to them. France is very Pakistan like that way, in that they're very intolerant of Islam the same way Pakistan is intolerant of everything other than Sunni Islam despite both claiming to grant freedom of religion and all that jazz. You have a Pakistani flag up despite being from elsewhere which shows a certain degree of reverence or, at the very least, admiration for the country so I hope you understand why I, as a non Muslim who lives in Pakistan and has to pretend to be a Muslim to stay alive, would take exception to your line of reasoning.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

So what is next?

Must drink French wine and gorge on bread, garlic, butter and pork at the citizen ceremony.

Desi pseudo liberals in this thread

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So what do we take from this? It seems to me that every country, whether France, Pakistan or India promises freedom and equality, but reserves the right to deny some freedom to those they consider subversive/hostile to their land or culture.

 

[DW44]

So what do we take from this? It seems to me that every country, whether France, Pakistan or India promises freedom and equality, but reserves the right to deny some freedom to those they consider subversive/hostile to their land or culture.

Pretty much. This is the real world and there's always going to be a gap between the rhetoric and actions of nation states, based on their own interests. The US is normally the loudest voice (at least before Trump) when it comes to human rights and yet it's one of the most egregious violators of human rights not just at home but abroad (Mexico City rule anyone?). The KKWCs of the world will waste their time and energy pointing out this gulf between actions and rhetoric and how the world is so unfair. The better informed among us would recognize that this is the way of the world and has been for millenia. The only country I can think off that actually acts on their rhetoric is Sweden which has less people than Lahore.

 

[Gilly]

So what do we take from this? It seems to me that every country, whether France, Pakistan or India promises freedom and equality, but reserves the right to deny some freedom to those they consider subversive/hostile to their land or culture.

I think it comes down to what freedom means. Some people think that freedom means you can do what you like which is incorrect. People are free to practise their religion as long as it conforms to the laws and rules of the land. The problem arises when people elevate individual rights above the legal and community norms.

It is impossible to have total freedom unless everyone had exactly the same expectations from freedom.

 

[mankuTimma]

Er. Because her husband is there?

So shaking hand issue is bigger than husband for her?feel sorry for that husband.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think it comes down to what freedom means. Some people think that freedom means you can do what you like which is incorrect. People are free to practise their religion as long as it conforms to the laws and rules of the land. The problem arises when people elevate individual rights above the legal and community norms.

It is impossible to have total freedom unless everyone had exactly the same expectations from freedom.

I don't think declining to shake hands was breaking any laws of the land, neither was it an example of thinking that freedom means doing anything you want, so while I agree with what you say, in this context it's not really relevant. The judge passed his ruling based on his conclusion that the woman wasn't sufficiently assimilated which is fair enough, nothing to do with breaking laws or doing what she wanted.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So shaking hand issue is bigger than husband for her?feel sorry for that husband.

No need, there are worse things than having a wife who won't shake hands with a stranger. Use your imagination, I'm sure you can find people who deserve your sympathy closer to home.

 

[WildSwing]

So what do we take from this? It seems to me that every country, whether France, Pakistan or India promises freedom and equality, but reserves the right to deny some freedom to those they consider subversive/hostile to their land or culture.

Turns out the western standards aren't that special after all

 

[Gilly]

Turns out the western standards aren't that special after all

Standards mean nothing and can be construed differently by every individual. The quality of your life is up to you, you just make the most of what is on offer. Most people look for good things in their life and some look for bad things in their life. You have the power to have a good life regardless of where you live and also have power to live a miserable life where ever you are.

 

[DeadBall]

Standards mean nothing and can be construed differently by every individual. The quality of your life is up to you, you just make the most of what is on offer. Most people look for good things in their life and some look for bad things in their life. You have the power to have a good life regardless of where you live and also have power to live a miserable life where ever you are.

Clearly you haven't lived in third world countries or as an expat (majority) from such countries in the Gulf countries.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Turns out the western standards aren't that special after all

You keep bleating on about western standards not being good, again I suggest you open a thread if you want to compare with Indian. Any topic will do, lifestyle, justice, freedom of expression, entertainment...whatever. I cans start one for you if you like.

 

[mankuTimma]

No need, there are worse things than having a wife who won't shake hands with a stranger. Use your imagination, I'm sure you can find people who deserve your sympathy closer to home.

I can sympathize with multiple people at same time

 

[Gilly]

Clearly you haven't lived in third world countries or as an expat (majority) from such countries in the Gulf countries.

I was responding to a post about western standards.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Does the Koran or Hadiths actually prohibit a woman from touching/shaking a man’s hand?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Does the Koran or Hadiths actually prohibit a woman from touching/shaking a man’s hand?

I doubt it's in the Quran, could well be a hadith since a lot of these more specific rulings have been derived from them. For example, in the Quran there is a commandment that women should guard their modesty, down the centuries scholars have extrapolated from that to guard it fully everything needs to be covered from head to toe. Easy to see how the same could have been done with male/female interaction where shaking hands is the extreme interpretation of whatever part of the Quran that derived from.

 

[RainMan_]

Good job from French authority. If u don't want to embrace a simple basic custom like handshaking, u aren't ready to be a citizen of a Liberal country like France.

U deserve to be in the backward country where u were before. France isn't for u.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Pretty much. This is the real world and there's always going to be a gap between the rhetoric and actions of nation states, based on their own interests. The US is normally the loudest voice (at least before Trump) when it comes to human rights and yet it's one of the most egregious violators of human rights not just at home but abroad (Mexico City rule anyone?). The KKWCs of the world will waste their time and energy pointing out this gulf between actions and rhetoric and how the world is so unfair. The better informed among us would recognize that this is the way of the world and has been for millenia. The only country I can think off that actually acts on their rhetoric is Sweden which has less people than Lahore.

You are far from better informed.lol.. It maybe the way of the world but when a nation publicly attempts to pride itself on being 'liberal', 'civilised','just','modern' etc such as France does but in reality their practices are very much different, it must be called out.

 

[Adijazz1706]

Good job from French authority. If u don't want to embrace a simple basic custom like handshaking, u aren't ready to be a citizen of a Liberal country like France.

U deserve to be in the backward country where u were before. France isn't for u.

Algeria is 'backward' due to French rule, exploitation and genocide. Since when was handshaking a sign of a 'forward' country?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Good job from French authority. If u don't want to embrace a simple basic custom like handshaking, u aren't ready to be a citizen of a Liberal country like France.

U deserve to be in the backward country where u were before. France isn't for u.

Is it LIBERAL to refuse someone because they wont shake hands? lol

 

[Robert]

Is it LIBERAL to refuse someone because they wont shake hands? lol

On the face of it, that would be illiberal as it represent exercise of state power over an individual.

Consider however Karl Popper’s Paradox of Tolerance. It is liberal to be intolerant of those who are themselves intolerant - for example, by banning hate speech or banning burning crosses.

A ban based on failure to shake hands is pushing the point though - an accommodation could be found such as the lady shaking hands while wearing gloves.

 

[CricketCartoons]

On the face of it, that would be illiberal as it represent exercise of state power over an individual.

Consider however Karl Popper’s Paradox of Tolerance. It is liberal to be intolerant of those who are themselves intolerant - for example, by banning hate speech or banning burning crosses.

A ban based on failure to shake hands is pushing the point though - an accommodation could be found such as the lady shaking hands while wearing gloves.

France is better than UK in this regard. UK is often blackmailed into going on the defensive so as not to appear a bigot or racist. France has no such qualms and doesnt tolerate those who dont respect its way of life.

 

[KingKhanWC]

On the face of it, that would be illiberal as it represent exercise of state power over an individual.

Consider however Karl Popper’s Paradox of Tolerance. It is liberal to be intolerant of those who are themselves intolerant - for example, by banning hate speech or banning burning crosses.

A ban based on failure to shake hands is pushing the point though - an accommodation could be found such as the lady shaking hands while wearing gloves.

I get your point however I dont feel the woman was being intolerant. There are different levels of interaction between men and women. Some women are fine with men(strangers) shaking their hands, hugging them, kissing them on the cheek etc while others do not want to have any physical contact. If you claim to be liberal one of the first principles of liberalism is to understand the other without judgements which the French have clearly failed in this case.

Too many nations or people claim they are liberal but only when it suits their ideals.

 

[dhonixi]

Every country is now getting worried about granting citizenship to people who can't obey such simple rules of land. These same people will then become problem later, They will not allow someone other to follow their religion in Muslims Countries but behave like they are champions of freedom.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

France is better than UK in this regard. UK is often blackmailed into going on the defensive so as not to appear a bigot or racist. France has no such qualms and doesnt tolerate those who dont respect its way of life.

Which is why Britain can proudly still carry the label of tolerance, whereas France can no longer be regarded as such.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Although I should add, France can be equally proud of being intolerant if that is the policy which they wish to pursue.

 

[WildSwing]

Which is why Britain can proudly still carry the label of tolerance, whereas France can no longer be regarded as such.

Which country has more acid attacks? France or Britain?

 

[siddharth]

Too many people who cry for ''liberalism'' hate ''liberals'' in their respective countries and prefer conservatism there..Its applicable only in ''western'' countries...I must say...

 

[Poutine]

I am confused, how will people get citizenship now?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Don’t shake hands for now due to <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/coronavirus?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#coronavirus</a>, advises health minister of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/France?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#France</a>.</p>— Steve Herman (@W7VOA) <a href="https://twitter.com/W7VOA/status/1233471404571602947?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 28, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Robert]

Algeria is 'backward' due to French rule, exploitation and genocide. Since when was handshaking a sign of a 'forward' country?

It has been a sign of mutual respect in Europe since.... ever. Failure to shake hands is an insult.

French rule in Algeria ended in 1962. Algeria is one of the biggest oil exporters in the world. Her people should be rich. I don’t think you can blame France any more.