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Anil Kumble - How good was he?

Slog

Slog

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Ofcourse he is a legendary spinner and his wicket tally is one of the best so it is no doubt he is a great of the game. Not to mention I found him a respectable and classy guy too.

But how do posters rate him here as far as his bowling is concerned?

One thing first you have to appreciate about Kumble is his longevity. 132 Test matches over 18 years and apart from his last year he was fairly consistent. 619 wickets is a lot and eventhough the average is touching 30 almost and is not in the league of the other spin legends of his generation (Murali, Warne) it is acceptable for a spinner in my book.

But then you see some glaring problems in his bowling make up.

There is major discrepancy in his home and away test records.He averages under 25 at HOME on the dust bowls of India and has contributed to some great wins. However his AWAY record reads very poorly. He averages almost 36 away from home which is very poor by any standard.

Now almost every legend had a country where he might have struggled and even if they did not for some reason their numbers dont look good. For eg Warne's away average is better than his home average (24) but he never really came to grips in India and in particular stuggled against the great Indian batting lineups of the time who were also among the best players of spin ever. Consequently he averaged in mid 40s in India. Similarly Murali averaged in 20s almost everywhere but he absolutely stunk in Australia where he averaged in 70s.

It is understandable to not do well in one or 2 countries in my book and could be a quirk or just plain bad luck or whatever because your overall away record everywhere else is still top notch.

However in Kumble's case his average in some countries are as follows:
Australia - 38
England - 41
New Zealand - 40
Pakistan - 42
Sri Lanka 45

Only in Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and at home in India does he average under 30. This is frankly terrible.

So my question is how good was he if you take out his longevity aspect? I'll be honest I saw him in mid 2000s and never really saw his as someone who struck fear into the opposition batting at most times. Ofocurse he has some great performances but where does he rank?

Often due to his number of his wickets people put him in the same league as Murali and Warne but he seems to be several rungs below them.
 
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By far one of the best fast bowlers Indian has ever produced.
 
He was not effective away from India in his first half of career. He was effective in his second half of career when playing away. He was always effective in India. Without looking at any details, I will say that he was mighty effective in 75% of matches he played and Indians will be over the moon if any other spinner can replicate what he did. Too many tests were won due to Kumble.
 
Amjid Javed said:
By far one of the best fast bowlers Indian has ever produced.
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But in terms of the global context how good was he?

Also even in Indian context can you really rate him that highly considering his lack of contribution abroad?
 
One of the best bowler ever when it comes to home conditions, but mediocre away even though he improved his record in the last few years.

He was won countless matches for India and was as pivotal to their success in the 90's as Tendulkar.

Overall, probably a rung below all-time great status because of his away record.
 
Slog said:
Often due to his number of his wickets people put him in the same league as Murali and Warne but he seems to be several rungs below them.
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Who are those people? I have never seen anyone putting Kumble in the same league. Kumble was 1-2 botch below those two and that's the case with pretty much every spinner.
 
Buffet said:
He was not effective away from India in his first half of career. He was effective in his second half of career when playing away. He was always effective in India. Without looking at any details, I will say that he was mighty effective in 75% of matches he played and Indians will be over the moon if any other spinner can replicate what he did. Too many tests were won due to Kumble.
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where would you say the second half of his career starts? Would be interesting to see his performance from that point. Statistically atleast the best period of his career were the four years from 1992 to 1995 which is start of his career. Lot of wickets and at great SR and average (best period for him avg wise)

atleast at home he was consistent throughout his career so you cant really say he went through an evolution as a bowler and became much better in second half because that would have directly meant his home performance would have shot up too right?

I think since Bhajji came he found a really good foil though and that increased his effectiveness
 
Buffet said:
Who are those people? I have never seen anyone putting Kumble in the same league. Kumble was 1-2 botch below those two and that's the case with pretty much every spinner.
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some people call him an ATG spinner basically which the other 2 are.
 
Just a good bowler, not ATG bowler or best spinner. He was good at home conditions, but away he was very poor.
 
Slog said:
Also even in Indian context can you really rate him that highly considering his lack of contribution abroad?
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Let me put his contribution in context.

  • He has played 32 Tests in SA+WI with average of 31-32. - Very good performance with that large a sample size
  • He has played 8 Tests in Zim+BD with average of somewhere in 20s -- Agianst minnows but a good performacne
  • He has played 38 tests in all other venues combined with average of 40 -- Poor performance with a large sample size
  • He has played 63 tests in India with average of 24 -- Absolute gun performance with a large sample size

So in context of Indian team and his contribution - he was a good and gun performers in 63+8+32 = 103 Tests

He was a poor performer in 38 Tests.

Now how many Indian bowlers or even any bowlers will have gun+good performance in 100+ Tests? If Kumble was not poor in 38 Tests , he would have been rated higher but he was poor in those 38 Tests. When all said and done , he was a gun performer for Indians in 100+ Tests as bowler. He must have played a large part in so many wins due to that.
 
Greatest match-winner for India at home, of all time.

I have a feeling Ashwin may surpass him.
 
Slog said:
some people call him an ATG spinner basically which the other 2 are.
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I am sure that even if some folks call him ATG , they don't place him with Warne and Murali. Anyone placing 3 at the same level have neither seen them bowl nor looked at stats closely.
 
Slog said:
where would you say the second half of his career starts? Would be interesting to see his performance from that point. Statistically atleast the best period of his career were the four years from 1992 to 1995 which is start of his career. Lot of wickets and at great SR and average (best period for him avg wise)

atleast at home he was consistent throughout his career so you cant really say he went through an evolution as a bowler and became much better in second half because that would have directly meant his home performance would have shot up too right?

I think since Bhajji came he found a really good foil though and that increased his effectiveness
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I just recall him adjusting to some places better and helping Indians later to do well in some away series. Let me pull a screen to cite some numbers otherwise my memory may be failing here.

In 2003/04 - India drew a Test series in Aus - Kumble took 24 wickets with an avg of under 29.
In 2003/04 - India won their first test series in Pakistan - Kumble took 15 wickets at an average of 25.

Looking at screen it doesn't look like a trend in his improvement but good performance in some key series in same time period may have contributed to my impression. Beside stats, it's just my impression that he got better in away conditions later in his career.

Harbie was nightmare in India when he started but for some reason he lost the effectiveness later. It may have been him not allowed to bowl Doosra.
 
#GreenRoars said:
Yes, Ashwin will surpass him. So far Ashwin performance is excellent.
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Ashwin has a loooooooong way to go for that. Many bowlers start with a bang but to do it for a prolong period is not so easy.
 
He is a ATG.Not in the league of Warne but still and ATG.

He is something like Sanga.An ATG but not in league of SRTs Laras Pontings.
 
Kumble is the best Indian spinner but not in the same league as Warne or Murali.
 
Azzurri said:
On par with Saqlain
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Somewhat.

Though Kumble played for much longer than Saqlain.

Not an ATG, but a borderline case. Bowling equivalent of Jayawerdena.

National great for sure, has been responsible for India being invincible at home during his career. Under-rated by many.

Not an ideal bowler for overseas conditions, but since he has to play more than 60% of his matches in Asia where he was a true match-winner, his utility index is be quite high.
 
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The best India has produced in last 25 years after L. Sivaramakrishnan. Very Limited talent but utlized to the maximum.
 
Him along with Srinath toiled hard and gave us great wins at home. Ashwin isn't close to him not even at home.
 
adit_sh said:
Yeah he ran into an inform Sehwag and his carrier was finished abruptly
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No. He was well past it by then. He was finished by 2002. He was called for the match against India on purely emotional grounds and because he did the teesra drama. There were no domestic performances for his recall.
 
Greatest bowler from India. Massive character. Stood for the team whenever required. Whenever I think of Kumble, those close bat-pad catches and plumb lbws come to mind! I'd be happy if Ashwin can emulate at least 50% of what Kumble did.
 
Sandeep said:
Greatest bowler from India. Massive character. Stood for the team whenever required. Whenever I think of Kumble, those close bat-pad catches and plumb lbws come to mind! I'd be happy if Ashwin can emulate at least 50% of what Kumble did.
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If i am not wrong, Kumble once bowled with broken jaw having bandage over it,right?
 
#GreenRoars said:
If i am not wrong, Kumble once bowled with broken jaw having bandage over it,right?
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And got the wicket of a certain Brian Charles Lara.. His greatest attribute was his commitment to the game and the integrity with which he played.
 
Kumble was India's greatest match winner in Tests.

Of course, bowlers tend to be bigger match winners than batsmen but impact of Kumble on our results was huge.
 
Not over-hyped at all. Don't get his due credit.

Had Kumble not been there, fab 4 couldn't have compensated for him.

Batsman can win you ODIs, not tests. Kumble ensured that lot of great batting performances from his batsmen don't go waste.

And he was a great fighter. Even with the bat, the most irritating tail-ender for the opposition.
 
cricketjoshila said:
He is a ATG.Not in the league of Warne but still and ATG.

He is something like Sanga.An ATG but not in league of SRTs Laras Pontings.
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Sounds perfect.

Kumble was to bowling what Kallis, Sangakkara, Dravid have been to batting. Great players, just not in the highest league and lived in the shadow always.

One thing though, at least Kumble was a match winner at home. :)
 
There are numbers and there is respect. Kumble had both. Anyone who takes 600 test wickets even at 35 should be regarded great. Its no mean feat. Mere 400,is a magic figure for bowlers and you're talking about 600,wickets here. Only someone who doesn't know cricket would disregard a character like Anil. He was a thorough fighter,,an absolute champ and a class man. Kumble is a great teat captain we never had in 90s. I wish people saw his leadership qualities back then only.could have helped keeping Azhar in check.
 
Saqlain at his best was an AMAZING spinner.

He took 5fer ALL 4 innings in the 1998 2 test series. Many of the series.

Just think about it.

5fer against Indian lineup that smashed Warne, Murali and all other spinners. And got peak Tendulkar out quite a few times. Yes, it wasn't Wasim or Waqar who troubled him. It was Saqlain all the way.

Saqlain had a higher ceiling (genuine ATG spinner material in Tests) but faded away.
 
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Not an ATG but then only Murali and Warne are ATG spinners. He is above the likes of Herath,Swann, Ajmal,Saqi,Qadir,Mushtaq for me in Tests. Only Macgill had potential to be better in Tests. In ODIs Kumble was mostly rubbish apart from a couple of memorable spells.
 
Slog said:
Ofcourse he is a legendary spinner and his wicket tally is one of the best so it is no doubt he is a great of the game. Not to mention I found him a respectable and classy guy too.

But how do posters rate him here as far as his bowling is concerned?

One thing first you have to appreciate about Kumble is his longevity. 132 Test matches over 18 years and apart from his last year he was fairly consistent. 619 wickets is a lot and eventhough the average is touching 30 almost and is not in the league of the other spin legends of his generation (Murali, Warne) it is acceptable for a spinner in my book.

But then you see some glaring problems in his bowling make up.

There is major discrepancy in his home and away test records.He averages under 25 at HOME on the dust bowls of India and has contributed to some great wins. However his AWAY record reads very poorly. He averages almost 36 away from home which is very poor by any standard.

Now almost every legend had a country where he might have struggled and even if they did not for some reason their numbers dont look good. For eg Warne's away average is better than his home average (24) but he never really came to grips in India and in particular stuggled against the great Indian batting lineups of the time who were also among the best players of spin ever. Consequently he averaged in mid 40s in India. Similarly Murali averaged in 20s almost everywhere but he absolutely stunk in Australia where he averaged in 70s.

It is understandable to not do well in one or 2 countries in my book and could be a quirk or just plain bad luck or whatever because your overall away record everywhere else is still top notch.

However in Kumble's case his average in some countries are as follows:
Australia - 38
England - 41
New Zealand - 40
Pakistan - 42
Sri Lanka 45

Only in Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and at home in India does he average under 30. This is frankly terrible.

So my question is how good was he if you take out his longevity aspect? I'll be honest I saw him in mid 2000s and never really saw his as someone who struck fear into the opposition batting at most times. Ofocurse he has some great performances but where does he rank?

Often due to his number of his wickets people put him in the same league as Murali and Warne but he seems to be several rungs below them.
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You forgot to give credit to biased Hindustani umpires for success of Kumble on home soil.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
Not an ATG but then only Murali and Warne are ATG spinners. He is above the likes of Herath,Swann, Ajmal,Saqi,Qadir,Mushtaq for me in Tests. Only Macgill had potential to be better in Tests. In ODIs Kumble was mostly rubbish apart from a couple of memorable spells.
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He is an ATG, but below only murli and Warne,might not have the rips of murli and Warne, but his line and length are second to none, he is a spin bowling equal of Mcgrath, deffo an ATG, who with subtle variations hunt u down ,he however became effective in abroad from the middle part of his career.
 
Vayuu said:
He is an ATG, but below only murli and Warne,might not have the rips of murli and Warne, but his line and length are second to none, he is a spin bowling equal of Mcgrath, deffo an ATG, who with subtle variations hunt u down ,he however became effective in abroad from the middle part of his career.
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No he did not.

His away record is terrible to say the least and sorry to say but I dont see someone who averages near 40 in almost all top countries apart from West Indies and SA (30-33 there) is def not an ATG.

People are saying that he had big contributions in Indian wins. Thats precisely the point. He did not have contributions elsewhere for India to have those wins.

India has historically always been a tough side at home and the spinners have done well. Kumble just took home bashing to a new level and thats it. There wasnt some groundbreaking contribution by him. If he was an ATG and not just an Indian great he would have helped to make some of the runs Sachin and co made abroad, more worth it
 
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Vayuu said:
He is an ATG, but below only murli and Warne,might not have the rips of murli and Warne, but his line and length are second to none, he is a spin bowling equal of Mcgrath, deffo an ATG, who with subtle variations hunt u down ,he however became effective in abroad from the middle part of his career.
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To be an ATG you need a bowling average of atleast around 25 no? And better records away. He's our best bowler ever. But I don't consider him an ATG at all
 
Its fine to rate him an ATG. He is a borderline case imo could be declared and ATG, could be not.

But the ones who rate him ATG must have a broad definition for this term. They must be rating players like Yousuf, Jayawerdena, Chanderpaul ATG as well.
 
Stallion__ said:
Its fine to rate him an ATG. He is a borderline case imo could be declared and ATG, could be not.

But the ones who rate him ATG must have a broad definition for this term. They must be rating players like Yousuf, Jayawerdena, Chanderpaul ATG as well.
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Yep. But most of them wont.

Thats the thing. His away record is abysmal in every sense really. Add to that he is not an ATG status ODI player either.

If he had 4-5 headline tours even then there might have been a case
 
Nikhil_cric said:
To be an ATG you need a bowling average of atleast around 25 no? And better records away. He's our best bowler ever. But I don't consider him an ATG at all
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For spinner you can be a bit lax with the bolwing averages imo (eventhough Warne and Murali are still sub 25 but they are different beasts)
 
Slog said:
For spinner you can be a bit lax with the bolwing averages imo (eventhough Warne and Murali are still sub 25 but they are different beasts)
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If we are going to be a bit lax then after Murali and Warne then I guess Kumble would be the next best IMO. Because as far as I'm aware most spinners performed poorly overseas.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Saqlain at his best was an AMAZING spinner.

He took 5fer ALL 4 innings in the 1998 2 test series. Many of the series.

Just think about it.

5fer against Indian lineup that smashed Warne, Murali and all other spinners. And got peak Tendulkar out quite a few times. Yes, it wasn't Wasim or Waqar who troubled him. It was Saqlain all the way.

Saqlain had a higher ceiling (genuine ATG spinner material in Tests) but faded away.
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I read somewhere Sachin don't have such good head to head record against Murali. Murali got him out quite a few times relatively cheaply.

Vettori also kept Sachin in check, though he took longer to get him out, but didn't allow Sachin to score freely. Sachin has a very low SR against Vettori.

Similar case with Giles, but Sachin hardly ever lost his wicket to him.

I think Monty and Swann got him out 4-5 times as well. As far as I remember, he dominated Swann a bit but Swann has a healthy SR against Sachin, Panesar though have a greater SR but sub-40 average against Sachin.


He was good against spinners like Kaneria, Harris, Shakib Rafique and particularly Hauritz who he attacked a lot.


So Saqi is not the only spinner who have troubled him, but yeah, at Sachin's peak, Saqlain could be the only one.

I remember Saqlain saying something like "What can I do, whatever variation I try he pick that from my hand", during his Chennai knock. Wasim still persisted with Saqlain and Sachin eventually misread one.

So even if Saqlain troubled him, he still have one great knock against him.
 
Don't know whether he is an ATG, but he is an outright match winner. Roughly 80% of India's wins can be traced to Kumble's bowling prowess. He is roughly comparable to bowlers like Anderson, Ntini, Qadir, Lee etc (but a superior version due to his longevity) who are exceptional at home but can't match their home records while playing away.

Kumble's weaker performances abroad may be partly explained through India's weak pace bowling attack. Spinners tend to flourish better outside SC when the pacers have given them early breakthroughs and given the bowling side the momentum. This was hardly the case with Kumble - he was rarely bowling to batting teams in pressure due to excellent bowling spells from pacemen. At home, this did not matter much because the pitches supported him. When when playing in hostile conditions, Kumble was a not a force in his early days because of lack of support bowling at the other end. With experience, Kumble became better though.
 
Stallion__ said:
I read somewhere Sachin don't have such good head to head record against Murali. Murali got him out quite a few times relatively cheaply.

Vettori also kept Sachin in check, though he took longer to get him out, but didn't allow Sachin to score freely. Sachin has a very low SR against Vettori.

Similar case with Giles, but Sachin hardly ever lost his wicket to him.

I think Monty and Swann got him out 4-5 times as well. As far as I remember, he dominated Swann a bit but Swann has a healthy SR against Sachin, Panesar though have a greater SR but sub-40 average against Sachin.


He was good against spinners like Kaneria, Harris, Shakib Rafique and particularly Hauritz who he attacked a lot.


So Saqi is not the only spinner who have troubled him, but yeah, at Sachin's peak, Saqlain could be the only one.

I remember Saqlain saying something like "What can I do, whatever variation I try he pick that from my hand", during his Chennai knock. Wasim still persisted with Saqlain and Sachin eventually misread one.

So even if Saqlain troubled him, he still have one great knock against him.
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Yes he had a great knock (it was one of his greatest ever knocks) but Saqlain was the reason Sachin failed in 3 out of 4 innings in that series.

SRT had a problem with ball coming in than going on (relatively speaking).

By the way, Monty and Swann's performance against SRT can be excluded cos by 2012 end, SRT was dead meat.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
To be an ATG you need a bowling average of atleast around 25 no? And better records away. He's our best bowler ever. But I don't consider him an ATG at all
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Not for spinners, and not for pacers bowling mostly on flat conditions.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Yes he had a great knock (it was one of his greatest ever knocks) but Saqlain was the reason Sachin failed in 3 out of 4 innings in that series.

SRT had a problem with ball coming in than going on (relatively speaking).

By the way, Monty and Swann's performance against SRT can be excluded cos by 2012 end, SRT was dead meat.
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Yeah, somewhat like Ashwin vs Sanga. Ashwin has bowled really well, could have troubled Sanga even in his prime but would be unfair to say that Sanga was Ashwin's bunny or something like that.


I never got to see Sachin's head to head record against McGrath, Ambrose, Wasim, Warne and Donald. CI only tells their record against bowling attacks, so we never know who dominated who.

But for Lara, I found that he average 100+ against Murali head to head, close to 50 against McGrath, close to 100 against Kaneria and MacGill. He has very high averages against bowlers like Ntini, Pollock, Hoggard and Gillespie too.

Though he struggled against Warne as compared to Sachin.

Don't have a good record against players like Flintoff, Nel, Harmison and Bichel.
 
Kumble was a great cricketer, an absolute talisman, but on simply bowling terms he is definitely a little below warne and murali.
There are three parts to kumble's career. His debut till about 1995 was good. He had good support from prasad and sirinath which has to be the most underrated attack in the history of the game.

he went off the boil somewhat between 1996-2000. I think people learnt to play him as a medium pacer and realised he lacked variety so just played him on the front foot. (He had no googly). There was very little to distinguish his leg break from the straighter one.

Between 2000-2005/6 he was absolutely phenomenal. He developed a few varieties, had harbhajan as a partner and India played lots at home where the strategy of piling weight of runs coupled with utilising a last day wearing pitch really helped him.

He retired when he was at his absolute peak. He could turn up today and still take wickets.
 
Stallion__ said:
Yeah, somewhat like Ashwin vs Sanga. Ashwin has bowled really well, could have troubled Sanga even in his prime but would be unfair to say that Sanga was Ashwin's bunny or something like that.

I never got to see Sachin's head to head record against McGrath, Ambrose, Wasim, Warne and Donald. CI only tells their record against bowling attacks, so we never know who dominated who.

But for Lara, I found that he average 100+ against Murali head to head, close to 50 against McGrath, close to 100 against Kaneria and MacGill. He has very high averages against bowlers like Ntini, Pollock, Hoggard and Gillespie too.

Though he struggled against Warne as compared to Sachin.

Don't have a good record against players like Flintoff, Nel, Harmison and Bichel.
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Bunny or not is subjective cos its just 1 series.

Sanga wasn't at his best but not over the hill like SRT of 2012.

Getting out 4 times scoring like 20 runs against a bowler is a horrible performance.

To put it in perspective, even the hopeless 2012 Sachin didn't fare that worse against Anderson and Swann.

The thing was that Sanga looked at ease against every bowler but just kept getting out to Ashwin. The last inings he looked so confident against others that many Indians in the Indian forum were **** scared that it was Sanga's day.

Now add the fact that Ashwin used to trouble Sanga in ODIs too (dunno the stats but viewing wise - it clearly looked so).

It depends on whether you can call Sanga Ashwin's bunny but I think its safer to say Ashwin troubled Sanga quite a fair bit over the years.
 
Abid Z said:
Kumble was a great cricketer, an absolute talisman, but on simply bowling terms he is definitely a little below warne and murali.
There are three parts to kumble's career. His debut till about 1995 was good. He had good support from prasad and sirinath which has to be the most underrated attack in the history of the game.

he went off the boil somewhat between 1996-2000. I think people learnt to play him as a medium pacer and realised he lacked variety so just played him on the front foot. (He had no googly). There was very little to distinguish his leg break from the straighter one.

Between 2000-2005/6 he was absolutely phenomenal. He developed a few varieties, had harbhajan as a partner and India played lots at home where the strategy of piling weight of runs coupled with utilising a last day wearing pitch really helped him.

He retired when he was at his absolute peak. He could turn up today and still take wickets.
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Only a little below? Kumble could not turn the ball much, which is why the gap between him and other ATG like Warne and Murali is not small. Kumble made up for lack of turn with his variations and courage, but there is a limit to what a spin bowler can achieve without turn. Kumble overachieved due to his never say die attitude, but skillwise he is not comparable to Murali or Warne.
 
Abid Z said:
Kumble was a great cricketer, an absolute talisman, but on simply bowling terms he is definitely a little below warne and murali.
There are three parts to kumble's career. His debut till about 1995 was good. He had good support from prasad and sirinath which has to be the most underrated attack in the history of the game.

he went off the boil somewhat between 1996-2000. I think people learnt to play him as a medium pacer and realised he lacked variety so just played him on the front foot. (He had no googly). There was very little to distinguish his leg break from the straighter one.

Between 2000-2005/6 he was absolutely phenomenal. He developed a few varieties, had harbhajan as a partner and India played lots at home where the strategy of piling weight of runs coupled with utilising a last day wearing pitch really helped him.

He retired when he was at his absolute peak. He could turn up today and still take wickets.
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I think he's more than just a lil below Warme.as IndianWillow mentioned Kumble never was a huge turner of the cricket ball like Warne/Murali and there was a big gulf between them and Kunmble/ any other spinner.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Bunny or not is subjective cos its just 1 series.

Sanga wasn't at his best but not over the hill like SRT of 2012.

Getting out 4 times scoring like 20 runs against a bowler is a horrible performance.

To put it in perspective, even the hopeless 2012 Sachin didn't fare that worse against Anderson and Swann.

The thing was that Sanga looked at ease against every bowler but just kept getting out to Ashwin. The last inings he looked so confident against others that many Indians in the Indian forum were **** scared that it was Sanga's day.

Now add the fact that Ashwin used to trouble Sanga in ODIs too (dunno the stats but viewing wise - it clearly looked so).

It depends on whether you can call Sanga Ashwin's bunny but I think its safer to say Ashwin troubled Sanga quite a fair bit over the years.
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He wasn't in the zone. Apparently, he wasn't over the hill since he was in sublime form in WC, but he looked off since then.

Pakistan bowlers used to be his punching bag, but when he didn't do well against them, I was pretty sure that he will struggle against Ashwin. (I don't know about their ODI history).

Gavasker explained all those dismissals, that Sanga was unnecessarily pushing the ball, instead of playing with dead bat like he used to play against Ajmal. Never saw him playing spinners like that (with least assurance) against Pakistan during all those years.

Not taking the credit away from Ashwin, he could have troubled Sanga even when he was batting well, but these 4 dismissals unfortunately don't prove much.
 
A good player who becomes very good, thanks to his longevity. Nothing more. People are grossly misusing the term great if a spinner who averages 36 away is being called one.

He's probably the Michael Clarke of spin bowling.
 
Like many players of the modern era his longevity can be viewed as the stronger asset compared to his effectiveness.
 
IndianWillow said:
Only a little below? Kumble could not turn the ball much, which is why the gap between him and other ATG like Warne and Murali is not small. Kumble made up for lack of turn with his variations and courage, but there is a limit to what a spin bowler can achieve without turn. Kumble overachieved due to his never say die attitude, but skillwise he is not comparable to Murali or Warne.
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60 % of decision he got from LBW on indian umpire standing on stump ,
 
Buffet said:
He has 33% of dismissals in India with LBW.
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Opps wrong stats.

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Kumble at home LBW wickets - 88 out of total 350 wickets - 25.14%

Kumble away LBW wickets - 68 out of 269 wickets - 25.27%

----------------
 
Stallion__ said:
I read somewhere Sachin don't have such good head to head record against Murali. Murali got him out quite a few times relatively cheaply.

Vettori also kept Sachin in check, though he took longer to get him out, but didn't allow Sachin to score freely. Sachin has a very low SR against Vettori.

Similar case with Giles, but Sachin hardly ever lost his wicket to him.

I think Monty and Swann got him out 4-5 times as well. As far as I remember, he dominated Swann a bit but Swann has a healthy SR against Sachin, Panesar though have a greater SR but sub-40 average against Sachin.


He was good against spinners like Kaneria, Harris, Shakib Rafique and particularly Hauritz who he attacked a lot.


So Saqi is not the only spinner who have troubled him, but yeah, at Sachin's peak, Saqlain could be the only one.

I remember Saqlain saying something like "What can I do, whatever variation I try he pick that from my hand", during his Chennai knock. Wasim still persisted with Saqlain and Sachin eventually misread one.

So even if Saqlain troubled him, he still have one great knock against him.
Click to expand...

Sachin before his tennis elbow had scores of 71, 142, 96, 143, 139, 8, 23, 15 against a Murali led SL bowling attack (dismissed by Murali twice in 8 innings for 143 & 8).

It was only in the 2005 series that he struggled a bit against Murali. In 2008, he had a horrible tour, though mainly due to the Mendis mystery.

He was quite successful in the 2009 & 2010 series, averaging 66 at home & 78 away.

So, I would beg to differ with that assertion.


http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n=8;template=results;type=batting;view=series
 
Stallion__ said:
Its fine to rate him an ATG. He is a borderline case imo could be declared and ATG, could be not.

But the ones who rate him ATG must have a broad definition for this term. They must be rating players like Yousuf, Jayawerdena, Chanderpaul ATG as well.
Click to expand...

Kumble is a greater cricketer than MOyo Yoni and Chanders. None of them had his match winning ability.
 
Stallion__ said:
Its fine to rate him an ATG. He is a borderline case imo could be declared and ATG, could be not.

But the ones who rate him ATG must have a broad definition for this term. They must be rating players like Yousuf, Jayawerdena, Chanderpaul ATG as well.
Click to expand...

No, others like Jayawardene do not also have to be rated ATGs. There can be a different standard for spinners. If there are only 2 ATG spinners, then the required standard is too strict.
 
cricketjoshila said:
He is a ATG.Not in the league of Warne but still and ATG.

He is something like Sanga.An ATG but not in league of SRTs Laras Pontings.
Click to expand...

I think you got this right.

He earned my respect when came onto bowl with a broken jaw in a test against west indies. He got lara lbw right after coming back.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
I think you got this right.

He earned my respect when came onto bowl with a broken jaw in a test against west indies. He got lara lbw right after coming back.
Click to expand...

LOL.

By that logic Wahab Riaz has earned your respect and is an all time great too.

Kumble always disappointed India and let down his illustrious teammates such as Sachin, Dravid, Laxman etc who scored runs upon runs even abroad and set up the match only for Kumble to do nothing (average 40+ in multiple countries) and India to lose and let all the batsmens efforts go down the drain.

He is an ATG at home but India always do well well at home so you need to see how much was his contribution in terms of changing the fortune of Indian cricket. In that aspect nada
 
It boggles me to see people talk about Kumble's match winning ability.

It is precisely his lack of match winning ability away from home why all the mountains of runs by the Fab 4 abroad usually went to waste. Those legends deserved to win many series' abroad and if India truly had an ATG bowler that bowler would have ensured a few series wins would have come their way abroad
 
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