Are Muslims Safer In The West Than In Muslim Countries?

[Jadz]

' Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brothers and your spouses and your clan, and the worldly goods which you have acquired, and the commerce thereof you fear a decline, and the dwellings in which you take pleasure - are dearer to you than God and His Apostle and the struggle in His Cause, then wait until God makes manifest His Will; and God does not grace iniquitous folk with His guidance.'
Q9:24

The above passage makes clear that emotional and material attachments, tribalism, nationalism, casteism, wealth, status, power and so on, to the exclusion of all spiritual and religious truths result in great losses for communities and nations.

With regard to Muslims in particular; Islam has been politicized and weaponized, employed as a tool - in Muslim countries - to persecute those who belong to different sects, such as Shi'a or Ahmedi Muslims, or to minorities, such as Christians. The degree of intolerance exhibited by the majority against those who question, challenge or oppose mainstream interpretations of Islam, as well as its application, often leads to conflict, violence, civil strife and war. The existence of blasphemy, apostasy laws inevitably means the imposition of censorship and compulsion upon Muslims and non-Muslims alike, with people not allowed the freedom to engage in debate, discussion about Islam.

Religious leaders hold extraordinary power over the lives of Muslims, their pronouncements and declarations are viewed as sacrosanct, no-one is permitted to question them or their authority - they are close to ruling parties, part of the Establishment.

Women are required to venture out with male relatives or guardians, not only because they would be regarded as 'loose' and 'wanton' without being adequately chaperoned, but also because it would not be safe - violence against women is rampant, the suppression of their rights is justified and rationalized through misinterpretation or corruption of Islam. Honour killings, forced marriages, domestic violence, denial of access to education, dowry deaths - even though the concept of dowry is alien to Islam - in Muslim countries are evidence of just how far removed from the real teachings (and life-example) of the Prophet (pbuh) Muslims are.

The question is, are Muslims - including women - safer in the West, where freedoms and opportunities not present in Muslim countries (unless they are rich) enable them to thrive, live independently of fear of persecution and even help them achieve a degree of unity? Western governments enacted robust anti-racist, anti-discriminatory laws in order to ensure people of colour and of minority religious faiths were not unfairly and illegally targeted by racists in society.

Of course, Muslims are subjected to hate crimes, often targeted by white supremacists, some are murdered, all are viewed with suspicion whenever a terrorist atrocity occurs and women who wear scarves attacked, verbally and/or physically. Anti-Muslim narratives in certain sections of the media and politics, using divide and conquer methods, does mean that Muslims are more vulnerable to abuse and violence. Yet, it could be argued, despite all this, that Muslims are safer in the West, which is why Muslim refugees and asylum seekers prefer to make their way to Western countries rather than to Muslim ones.

It could even be argued that 'Muslim governments' is a misnomer, since the fifty-three+ Muslim countries are more concerned with internal, nationalistic, political matters than they are with the well-being of the collective Muslim Community. Indeed, the very existence of fifty-three+ Muslim countries is an indication of just how divided Muslims are, with nationalism having displaced Islam as the principle driver in their affairs. Ritual, custom, tradition and culture shape and form the way Islam is practised, leaving little room for unity.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

As a teenager growing up 'the west', once I heard my father saying to his friends in a gathering:
"despite being non-Muslims, these people (the Westerners) follow Islam... more than us (the Muslims) ... a woman is safer here than in Pakistan even at nighttime in middle of nowhere". And his friends nodded in approval. This impacted me.

Now as an adult, I believe we the Muslims are not following teachings of Prophet PBUH with complete honesty. When it interests us we are Muslims and when it doesn't we do whatever we want to...

A sad reality.

We must reflect on it.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

' Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brothers and your spouses and your clan, and the worldly goods which you have acquired, and the commerce thereof you fear a decline, and the dwellings in which you take pleasure - are dearer to you than God and His Apostle and the struggle in His Cause, then wait until God makes manifest His Will; and God does not grace iniquitous folk with His guidance.'
Q9:24

The above passage makes clear that emotional and material attachments, tribalism, nationalism, casteism, wealth, status, power and so on, to the exclusion of all spiritual and religious truths result in great losses for communities and nations.

With regard to Muslims in particular; Islam has been politicized and weaponized, employed as a tool - in Muslim countries - to persecute those who belong to different sects, such as Shi'a or Ahmedi Muslims, or to minorities, such as Christians. The degree of intolerance exhibited by the majority against those who question, challenge or oppose mainstream interpretations of Islam, as well as its application, often leads to conflict, violence, civil strife and war. The existence of blasphemy, apostasy laws inevitably means the imposition of censorship and compulsion upon Muslims and non-Muslims alike, with people not allowed the freedom to engage in debate, discussion about Islam.

Religious leaders hold extraordinary power over the lives of Muslims, their pronouncements and declarations are viewed as sacrosanct, no-one is permitted to question them or their authority - they are close to ruling parties, part of the Establishment.

Women are required to venture out with male relatives or guardians, not only because they would be regarded as 'loose' and 'wanton' without being adequately chaperoned, but also because it would not be safe - violence against women is rampant, the suppression of their rights is justified and rationalized through misinterpretation or corruption of Islam. Honour killings, forced marriages, domestic violence, denial of access to education, dowry deaths - even though the concept of dowry is alien to Islam - in Muslim countries are evidence of just how far removed from the real teachings (and life-example) of the Prophet (pbuh) Muslims are.

The question is, are Muslims - including women - safer in the West, where freedoms and opportunities not present in Muslim countries (unless they are rich) enable them to thrive, live independently of fear of persecution and even help them achieve a degree of unity? Western governments enacted robust anti-racist, anti-discriminatory laws in order to ensure people of colour and of minority religious faiths were not unfairly and illegally targeted by racists in society.

Of course, Muslims are subjected to hate crimes, often targeted by white supremacists, some are murdered, all are viewed with suspicion whenever a terrorist atrocity occurs and women who wear scarves attacked, verbally and/or physically. Anti-Muslim narratives in certain sections of the media and politics, using divide and conquer methods, does mean that Muslims are more vulnerable to abuse and violence. Yet, it could be argued, despite all this, that Muslims are safer in the West, which is why Muslim refugees and asylum seekers prefer to make their way to Western countries rather than to Muslim ones.

It could even be argued that 'Muslim governments' is a misnomer, since the fifty-three+ Muslim countries are more concerned with internal, nationalistic, political matters than they are with the well-being of the collective Muslim Community. Indeed, the very existence of fifty-three+ Muslim countries is an indication of just how divided Muslims are, with nationalism having displaced Islam as the principle driver in their affairs. Ritual, custom, tradition and culture shape and form the way Islam is practised, leaving little room for unity.

I think this is not the problem.

You should look at it from a more realistic and broader view.

The so called "problems" you mentioned in the "Muslim Countries" ... are actually the problems of the "Third world".

Many, many Muslim countries belong to the third world, and almost all of our problems are the same regardless of which religion or no religion is the majority in the country.

Are minorities safe in India where the majority is Hinduism?
How about safety of the women in countries like Honduras? There is a church in every other street in Honduras but look at the crime stats against females. Mind boggling.
Is Philippine safe for the kids where the consent's legal age is just 12 years?
Are human rights valued in China?
Does religious extremism not exist in India where religion "has been politicized and weaponized, employed as a tool" ?

So there is a common trend here.
When a country belongs to the Third World, it's problems are almost the same with the other third world countries REGARDLESS of religion and location.

The question then is,,,, what is it that makes a third world country, a third world country?
And the answer is: Corruption.

The more rampant the corruption is, the more deeper in trouble the third world country is.

If corruption in a third world country (regardless of religion and location) is decreased to a point where it matches with any First World country, you will notice that law and order is prevailed, and many of the issues that you raised in the OP significantly go down.


However, I do agree with your notion in one point though.
Muslim countries should be the least corrupt among the third world countries because we have emaan and an extra layer of warning of cosmic justice that will be served to us for our bad actions - but unfortunately, there are quite a few Muslim countries of the third world, that rank high the list in top of the corruption nations.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

As a teenager growing up 'the west', once I heard my father saying to his friends in a gathering:
"despite being non-Muslims, these people (the Westerners) follow Islam... more than us (the Muslims) ... a woman is safer here than in Pakistan even at nighttime in middle of nowhere". And his friends nodded in approval. This impacted me.

Now as an adult, I believe we the Muslims are not following teachings of Prophet PBUH with complete honesty. When it interests us we are Muslims and when it doesn't we do whatever we want to...

A sad reality.

We must reflect on it.

This is tired old line which is thrown out. Most major western cities aren’t safe for women to walk alone at night

 

[PakLFC]

Overall much safer in the west. Most Muslim countries like the those in the Gulf and Africa know nothing about human rights. There are a few Muslim countries like the UAE, Malaysia, Turkey, Maldive islands and even Pakistan that are by and large safe ones.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

This is tired old line which is thrown out. Most major western cities aren’t safe for women to walk alone at night

Of course, they are not.

But this is the general perception people have.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I wonder how safe Muslims would be in the west if we took away the social services, free healthcare and welfare benefits which supports a huge swathe of the population?

 

[guna]

A lone woman at night in subcontinent is always under the threat of rape.

A lone woman at night in the west is always under the threat of robbery and sometimes murder.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

A lone woman at night in subcontinent is always under the threat of rape.

A lone woman at night in the west is always under the threat of robbery and sometimes murder.

Or all three..

 

[Colorblind Genius]

I wonder how safe Muslims would be in the west if we took away the social services, free healthcare and welfare benefits which supports a huge swathe of the population?

Or relax the law n order situation as it is in many third world countries.

 

[PakLFC]

I wonder how safe Muslims would be in the west if we took away the social services, free healthcare and welfare benefits which supports a huge swathe of the population?

You may as well take everything away then! That is like saying how great Pak would be if human rights were respected, there was no terrorism and the country was financially thriving with jobs for everyone. In that case all Pakistanis would move back there.

 

[Local.Dada]

I wonder how safe Muslims would be in the west if we took away the social services, free healthcare and welfare benefits which supports a huge swathe of the population?

On the flip side, how safe would the non-Muslims be if those were removed?

I am not talking about and generalizing all Muslims obviously but at least the ones who are probably living there to solely to take these benefits.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

On the flip side, how safe would the non-Muslims be if those were removed?

I am not talking about and generalizing all Muslims obviously but at least the ones who are probably living there to solely to take these benefits.

Nobody would be safe, the stipulation about Muslims was in the OP. But in my view western countries are often a lot safer due to the people living in relatively wealthy countries where there is some support for even the poorest and disenfranchised parts of society.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Or relax the law n order situation as it is in many third world countries.

Well they would only do that if they wanted to become third world countries.

 

[Jadz]

Nobody would be safe, the stipulation about Muslims was in the OP. But in my view western countries are often a lot safer due to the people living in relatively wealthy countries where there is some support for even the poorest and disenfranchised parts of society.

I respectfully disagree. Employing lack of development or wealth as the standard by which Muslim governments - and societies - treat women, different sects (Shi'as or Ahmedis) and minorities actually amplifies the point I was making, which is: Islam is politicized and weaponized to abuse the human rights of the aforementioned, where mainstream interpretations are imposed upon everyone.

Further, Saudi-occupied Arabia, Gulf nations are immensely wealthy, yet they have the most oppressive governments on the planet. Yes, they are also extremely corrupt - but that does not prevent them from practising a form of Islam that is more reminiscent of al-Jaahiliyah (the Times of Ignorance preceding the advent of Qur'anic Revelations) than of the beautiful religion observed by the Prophet (pbuh) and the Early Muslims. Their descent into tribal, national, sectarian, political internecine warfare is hardly different to that of the perpetually warring Arab tribes that characterized the period before the Prophet received God's Message. A case in point is Yemen - Arabs killing Arabs, Muslims killing Muslims, the wealthy massacring the poor.

The systems of welfare, health and education in the West - which you detailed - ought to be present, and prevalent in Muslim countries, because the care of the orphan, widow, poor, disabled, elderly, accessibility for education and health for all, regardless of income or status, are key components of Islam, the way the public finances are supposed to be disbursed. The absence of such facilities and amenities in Muslim countries exposes the manner in which Islamic principles and laws have been abandoned. What does this mean in practice? To my mind, it means the way Islam is practised as a religion of rituals, empty of purpose, without real direction.

In the West, Muslim women have recourse to the authorities if they are threatened with forced marriages, dragged to Muslim countries without their consent or subjected to domestic violence - at least they are not coerced into marrying their 'cousins.' This is not the case in Muslim countries, where women's rights are virtually non-existent.

In all this, I see a betrayal of the Prophet's legacy and life-example, and the ultimate abandonment of the true, inspirational, beautiful, exalted Message of Islam. The West affords freedoms and opportunities not available to Muslims in Muslim countries, unless they are rich and influential - and many of the latter prefer to make their abodes in the West for the reasons already outlined.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I would say Yes and No.

1. The west are not bombing themselves, so Yes.

2. You rarely would be attacked in a Muslim country because you are a Muslim, so No.

It depends if a Muslim is safer or a human is more safer in the west.

 

[guna]

I would say Yes and No.

1. The west are not bombing themselves, so Yes.

2. You rarely would be attacked in a Muslim country because you are a Muslim, so No.

It depends if a Muslim is safer or a human is more safer in the west.

It depends on if you belong to a minority sect with in Islam. Countless Shias, Ahmedis have been killed in Pakistan, Iraq, Syria than anything West has ever done to Muslims.

If a Muslim is in West, he is extremely safe, can declare his sect openly and preach his or her faith.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It depends on if you belong to a minority sect with in Islam. Countless Shias, Ahmedis have been killed in Pakistan, Iraq, Syria than anything West has ever done to Muslims.

If a Muslim is in West, he is extremely safe, can declare his sect openly and preach his or her faith.

This is not because they are Muslims but secterian killings. In war torn nations is also often done by militants who are supported by outside forces.

As for worse than the west have ever done, this has to be one of the most ignorant points ever made. 4 million have died as a result of western policies in the last 20 years alone. Lets not even go into longer history.

Muslims are discriminated in the west simply for being Muslims, as a result of the war of terror.

 

[guna]

This is not because they are Muslims but secterian killings. In war torn nations is also often done by militants who are supported by outside forces.

As for worse than the west have ever done, this has to be one of the most ignorant points ever made. 4 million have died as a result of western policies in the last 20 years alone. Lets not even go into longer history.

Muslims are discriminated in the west simply for being Muslims, as a result of the war of terror.

Do you think Muslims are treated fairly in Pakistan than in West? You may be a Sunni in Pakistan. But Shias and Ahmedis will beg to differ from you.

Policies of West means nothing. Every country has its own policy. Saudis have killed thousands of Muslims in Yemen and many more thousands on the way with millions starving. I see Yemen relief ads everyday on Youtube. The West has never caused so much death and sufferings than what Saudis are doing in Yemen. Even Pakistan policy of supporting Taliban has caused thousands of deaths in Afghanistan.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Do you think Muslims are treated fairly in Pakistan than in West? You may be a Sunni in Pakistan. But Shias and Ahmedis will beg to differ from you.

Policies of West means nothing. Every country has its own policy. Saudis have killed thousands of Muslims in Yemen and many more thousands on the way with millions starving. I see Yemen relief ads everyday on Youtube. The West has never caused so much death and sufferings than what Saudis are doing in Yemen. Even Pakistan policy of supporting Taliban has caused thousands of deaths in Afghanistan.

Policies includes killings. You lack knowledge on this and are only defending brutal murder.

As for Saudi, please learn history, the family was installed by the British, supported now by the Yanks, both supplied weapons to Saudi which are being used in Yemen. Essentailly Saudis are the west , all be it their puppets.

 

[guna]

Policies includes killings. You lack knowledge on this and are only defending brutal murder.

As for Saudi, please learn history, the family was installed by the British, supported now by the Yanks, both supplied weapons to Saudi which are being used in Yemen. Essentailly Saudis are the west , all be it their puppets.

Americans supply weapons to every country. But those countries do not use it against their own brethren. Whether to use weapons are not, it is up to Saudis who are Muslims. You do not blame the guy who sold the gun. You blame the guy that used it for murder.
Seriously, you blame west for everything.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Americans supply weapons to every country. But those countries do not use it against their own brethren. Whether to use weapons are not, it is up to Saudis who are Muslims. You do not blame the guy who sold the gun. You blame the guy that used it for murder.
Seriously, you blame west for everything.

They are not brethern. Again educate yourself on basic history, how Saudi state come into being. You will then understand they are puppets and according to many scholars not even Muslims. Its best you leave this subject as you are too little knowledge.

 

[saeedhk]

There is no doubt that Muslims in the West are safer. In the West or in the East, we have all the rights and we are not discriminated against. We do not live in perennial fear that a feudal lord and turn up to our house and kidnap our daughters, or a policeman would file false criminal cases against us, or a cleric would put a bounty on our heads, or a lawmaker would occupy our land, or a fellow Muslim would accuse us of blasphemy to settle a personal dispute, or an influential person would get us killed, or a corrupt judge would give us a life sentence or a customs officer would plant narcotics in your luggage . In addition, we are free to practice and preach our religion and our women are safe.

Women outside Muslim countries such as Pakistan have a better and a just life. They are able to get an education, employment, wear whatever they want, have a cup of coffee in a nice café without the fear of violence and go for a walk at night without fearing for personal safety. Nobody would harass them, kill them over honor or throw acid in their faces.

 

[saeedhk]

[video]https://fb.watch/5kxDNXCp0h/[/video]

Engineer Ali Mirza sums it up well in two minutes!It is worth listening.

 

[Third_Umpire]

If you’re the wrong kind of Muslim aka not Sunni, you’re much safer in the west

 

[Third_Umpire]

Oh and also if you’re a woman, of any kind of Muslim, you are safer in the west.

 

[OMB]

If you’re the wrong kind of Muslim aka not Sunni, you’re much safer in the west

wrong kind?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I respectfully disagree. Employing lack of development or wealth as the standard by which Muslim governments - and societies - treat women, different sects (Shi'as or Ahmedis) and minorities actually amplifies the point I was making, which is: Islam is politicized and weaponized to abuse the human rights of the aforementioned, where mainstream interpretations are imposed upon everyone.

Further, Saudi-occupied Arabia, Gulf nations are immensely wealthy, yet they have the most oppressive governments on the planet. Yes, they are also extremely corrupt - but that does not prevent them from practising a form of Islam that is more reminiscent of al-Jaahiliyah (the Times of Ignorance preceding the advent of Qur'anic Revelations) than of the beautiful religion observed by the Prophet (pbuh) and the Early Muslims. Their descent into tribal, national, sectarian, political internecine warfare is hardly different to that of the perpetually warring Arab tribes that characterized the period before the Prophet received God's Message. A case in point is Yemen - Arabs killing Arabs, Muslims killing Muslims, the wealthy massacring the poor.

The systems of welfare, health and education in the West - which you detailed - ought to be present, and prevalent in Muslim countries, because the care of the orphan, widow, poor, disabled, elderly, accessibility for education and health for all, regardless of income or status, are key components of Islam, the way the public finances are supposed to be disbursed. The absence of such facilities and amenities in Muslim countries exposes the manner in which Islamic principles and laws have been abandoned. What does this mean in practice? To my mind, it means the way Islam is practised as a religion of rituals, empty of purpose, without real direction.

In the West, Muslim women have recourse to the authorities if they are threatened with forced marriages, dragged to Muslim countries without their consent or subjected to domestic violence - at least they are not coerced into marrying their 'cousins.' This is not the case in Muslim countries, where women's rights are virtually non-existent.

In all this, I see a betrayal of the Prophet's legacy and life-example, and the ultimate abandonment of the true, inspirational, beautiful, exalted Message of Islam. The West affords freedoms and opportunities not available to Muslims in Muslim countries, unless they are rich and influential - and many of the latter prefer to make their abodes in the West for the reasons already outlined.

Going by this logic then, the solution would be to remove religion - more specifically Islam - from any form of legislation in Muslim countries. That is what has happened for the most part in the west. I have always advocated secular law personally on here so I would agree for the most part, but then I have quite a western viewpoint having been brought up in the west.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Going by this logic then, the solution would be to remove religion - more specifically Islam - from any form of legislation in Muslim countries. That is what has happened for the most part in the west. I have always advocated secular law personally on here so I would agree for the most part, but then I have quite a western viewpoint having been brought up in the west.

I believe a balanced point is the key.

For example, Pakistan should rethink our Blasphemy Law. Many people who have personal grudge against someone use it...

But unfortunately so many people do not want the Muslim world to progress. Prime example being the Mullahs (whose own daughters study in Harvard but they preach the poor to not send their daughters to local schools).

Heck even many Western secular nations do not want Muslim world to progress.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I believe a balanced point is the key.

For example, Pakistan should rethink our Blasphemy Law. Many people who have personal grudge against someone use it...

But unfortunately so many people do not want the Muslim world to progress. Prime example being the Mullahs (whose own daughters study in Harvard but they preach the poor to not send their daughters to local schools).

Heck even many Western secular nations do not want Muslim world to progress.

Religious laws tend to find most opposition among minorities, and it is often these groups who are more vocal on message boards. It is possible that they are fueled by political motivation or funded by hostile forces as well, I don't discount anything, but at the end of the day it still has to be seen as a weakness which needs to be identified and fixed. Safety of the population should always be paramount for a nation.

 

[Jadz]

Going by this logic then, the solution would be to remove religion - more specifically Islam - from any form of legislation in Muslim countries. That is what has happened for the most part in the west. I have always advocated secular law personally on here so I would agree for the most part, but then I have quite a western viewpoint having been brought up in the west.

Islam addresses both the spiritual and secular - religious and worldly - realms, and this is evidenced by the system established by the Prophet (pbuh) and, to a lesser extent, by his successors, in Medina and the regions governed by Muslims. There is no distinction, in the ideology of Islam, between the spiritual and secular - the soul and the flesh - they are viewed as one indivisible whole, and it is this unity of Being that the Faithful tries to achieve.

Whilst I disagree with the perpetual war agenda of the West, its laws protecting and safeguarding minorities are truly admirable. Minorities in Muslim countries, as well as women, are often mistreated and - as I have attempted to emphasize throughout this thread - it is because lip-service is paid to Islamic values and principles but, in reality, are abandoned and rejected, or politicized and weaponized.

I, like you, have been entirely brought up in the West, my identity is multi-layered and multi-faceted - I am not only a practising Muslim, but also a British national, a Londoner, one who has worked with and lived amongst our hosts. I believe the British people to be warm, welcoming, tolerant and compassionate - notwithstanding far-right press and politicians trying to rule through dividing society. However, I do not think (imho) that the abandonment of Christianity and its core precepts has served the people well, it has, inevitably, led to a gradual deterioration in moral values, the moral compass has been lost and confusion reigns.

To return to the subject; I think Muslims are safer in the West - they may build mansions and buy vast tracts of land in their countries of origin and even prefer to be buried in them, but they love to live and work in a region that offers opportunities and freedoms not available to them in Muslim countries (unless, as already stated) they are wealthy.

 

[Robert]

Islam addresses both the spiritual and secular - religious and worldly - realms, and this is evidenced by the system established by the Prophet (pbuh) and, to a lesser extent, by his successors, in Medina and the regions governed by Muslims. There is no distinction, in the ideology of Islam, between the spiritual and secular - the soul and the flesh - they are viewed as one indivisible whole, and it is this unity of Being that the Faithful tries to achieve.

Whilst I disagree with the perpetual war agenda of the West, its laws protecting and safeguarding minorities are truly admirable. Minorities in Muslim countries, as well as women, are often mistreated and - as I have attempted to emphasize throughout this thread - it is because lip-service is paid to Islamic values and principles but, in reality, are abandoned and rejected, or politicized and weaponized.

I, like you, have been entirely brought up in the West, my identity is multi-layered and multi-faceted - I am not only a practising Muslim, but also a British national, a Londoner, one who has worked with and lived amongst our hosts. I believe the British people to be warm, welcoming, tolerant and compassionate - notwithstanding far-right press and politicians trying to rule through dividing society. However, I do not think (imho) that the abandonment of Christianity and its core precepts has served the people well, it has, inevitably, led to a gradual deterioration in moral values, the moral compass has been lost and confusion reigns.

To return to the subject; I think Muslims are safer in the West - they may build mansions and buy vast tracts of land in their countries of origin and even prefer to be buried in them, but they love to live and work in a region that offers opportunities and freedoms not available to them in Muslim countries (unless, as already stated) they are wealthy.

I notice this in a willingness to accept and use lying and cheating and dishonesty by the young, and a complete indifference to the dishonourable antics of our current political leaders.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Islam addresses both the spiritual and secular - religious and worldly - realms, and this is evidenced by the system established by the Prophet (pbuh) and, to a lesser extent, by his successors, in Medina and the regions governed by Muslims. There is no distinction, in the ideology of Islam, between the spiritual and secular - the soul and the flesh - they are viewed as one indivisible whole, and it is this unity of Being that the Faithful tries to achieve.

Whilst I disagree with the perpetual war agenda of the West, its laws protecting and safeguarding minorities are truly admirable. Minorities in Muslim countries, as well as women, are often mistreated and - as I have attempted to emphasize throughout this thread - it is because lip-service is paid to Islamic values and principles but, in reality, are abandoned and rejected, or politicized and weaponized.

I, like you, have been entirely brought up in the West, my identity is multi-layered and multi-faceted - I am not only a practising Muslim, but also a British national, a Londoner, one who has worked with and lived amongst our hosts. I believe the British people to be warm, welcoming, tolerant and compassionate - notwithstanding far-right press and politicians trying to rule through dividing society. However, I do not think (imho) that the abandonment of Christianity and its core precepts has served the people well, it has, inevitably, led to a gradual deterioration in moral values, the moral compass has been lost and confusion reigns.

To return to the subject; I think Muslims are safer in the West - they may build mansions and buy vast tracts of land in their countries of origin and even prefer to be buried in them, but they love to live and work in a region that offers opportunities and freedoms not available to them in Muslim countries (unless, as already stated) they are wealthy.

I agree with you to some degree about the abandonment of Christianity perhaps leading to a moral vacuum, but then you can't have it both ways. You could also argue that it was the victory against clergy rule that freed Britain from the dark ages of medieval times. Isn't this what has produced the same people and society that you admire?

I am a fairly logical person, so if you present the argument to me that Muslims are safer in the west, then my response would be then perhaps Muslims should follow suit and remove Islam from the statutes. Unless there is something I am missing and you have a superior solution.

 

[Robert]

I agree with you to some degree about the abandonment of Christianity perhaps leading to a moral vacuum, but then you can't have it both ways. You could also argue that it was the victory against clergy rule that freed Britain from the dark ages of medieval times. Isn't this what has produced the same people and society that you admire?

I am a fairly logical person, so if you present the argument to me that Muslims are safer in the west, then my response would be then perhaps Muslims should follow suit and remove Islam from the statutes. Unless there is something I am missing and you have a superior solution.

I think [MENTION=30006]Jadz[/MENTION] is referring to the collapse in church attendance since WW2 and in particular the 1960s.

For sure, the culture shift from dogmatic religion towards Enlightenment was what kickstarted Britain’s growth to superpower status, but the church still held great influence until the mid-20th century.

 

[MenInG]

Interesting question and needs a second run.

 

[Stewie]

Everybody is safer in the west compared to some Muslim countries.

Not all Muslim countries are the same when it comes to safety.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Probably

 

[sweep_shot]

It depends on the area. Not all areas are the same.

In Canada, some areas/provinces can be risky for Muslims. But, a city like Toronto is generally safe for Muslims.

It also depends on the Muslim country. Not all Muslim countries are the same. I would probably feel safer in Saudi Arabia than in some other Muslim countries, for example.