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Are Pakistani openers conservative?

cricketjoshila

Test Captain
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Mar 16, 2011
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So Gautam Gambhir was on a pre match show today and he said that Pakistani openers are conservative. Hence the Pakistan team is unlikely to score 180-200 but mostly in 160 range.

Therefore playing 4 pacers makes sense for them.

Discuss
 
Pakistan top 3 are conservative, they must send shivers to the opposition when batting.

The bigger problem is none of the top 3 can accelerate.
 
Most teams play high risk high reward game because they need to get above par to defend the total. When it flops they lose big but if they don't go hard, they might lose anyway.

Pakistan's bowling attack is of such a quality that they can defend par scores 90 % of the time so they don't need to risk going hard at the top and going under par.

So they play risk free cricket to reach that 165-175 par scores
 
Gautam always comes up with the most revolutionary ideas.

This has never been talked about before. It's not like we already have a dozen threads on this topic.
 
Why have they relinquished this method?

All they needed to do was stay and the runs would have come. But they tried to play cute shots and got out.

Pace and Bounce on these early season Aussie wickets will not be easy to handle for the middle order. The openers have to stay.
 
Rizwan was trying to cut the left hander bringing the ball back in to him of a length.
What can one say.
 
It's the save wickets mentality.

40 for 0 from 6 overs today and the match was over.

Instead they scratched around and made 28/2 from 6 overs.
 
54 dot balls in Pakistan's innings today. That's the equivalent of 9 overs where not a single run was scored
 
Then there is a case for Fakhar Zaman to open. Babar moves to no.3

You aren't aware of Fakhar's recent stats are you? He is more tuk tuk than explosive these days.

The only 'explosive' batsmen we have are Asif Ali (c), Haider Ali, Khushdil Shah. And they all have one thing in common. See if you can guess what it is.
 
54 dot balls in Pakistan's innings today. That's the equivalent of 9 overs where not a single run was scored

Bulk of these dots were players getting beaten by the extra pace and bounce of the Perth wicket. One has to question how have these players been practicing in the nets and elsewhere. The middle order is full of players who have been failing 9 times out of ten in their comfort zone subcontinent conditions of UAE, Pakistan. How were these players magically expected to deliver in fast, bouncy Australian conditions of Perth and Melbourne?

This team management needs to be brutally axed.
 
Why have they relinquished this method?

All they needed to do was stay and the runs would have come. But they tried to play cute shots and got out.

Pace and Bounce on these early season Aussie wickets will not be easy to handle for the middle order. The openers have to stay.

1) Babar and Rizzy are not able to handle opening on Aussie pitches

2) Both are probably out of form right now

3) There is a small but stupid section of the fanbase who feel entitled to Pakistani openers replicating Buttler and Maxwell and this is putting pressure on RizBab.

Shan Masood is a poor man's RizBab but look how crucial his runs were in both games. RizBab do the same job but 10-15 runs better. Their failure seals Pakistan's fate nearly every time - the team cannot do it without them.
 
Conservative is one word.

Selfish, darpok, gutless, cowardly are other appropriate descriptions.
 
1) Babar and Rizzy are not able to handle opening on Aussie pitches

2) Both are probably out of form right now

3) There is a small but stupid section of the fanbase who feel entitled to Pakistani openers replicating Buttler and Maxwell and this is putting pressure on RizBab.

Shan Masood is a poor man's RizBab but look how crucial his runs were in both games. RizBab do the same job but 10-15 runs better. Their failure seals Pakistan's fate nearly every time - the team cannot do it without them.

If they can't, who can?

They were doing ok couple of matches back.

Pakistani bowling on these pitches will keep teams at around 150. So no they don't need to be Maxwell, but they are playing very slow and then trying cute shots.

Masood is coming from England, that's why he is handling pacers better.

May be send him to open.
 
If they can't, who can?

They were doing ok couple of matches back.

Pakistani bowling on these pitches will keep teams at around 150. So no they don't need to be Maxwell, but they are playing very slow and then trying cute shots.

Masood is coming from England, that's why he is handling pacers better.

May be send him to open.

Both openers feet were stuck they tried to play with thier hands hence why they missed the ball on multiple occasions.
 
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] where have you been for the last two years?
 
As i said in another thread, its sheer arrogance.

No one else actively tries to bat this way, every tream has at leat one opener that goes for it.

Our teams acts like they are batting first in the UAE every damn match

The sad thing is, they are so stubborn that they wont change now
 
So Gautam Gambhir was on a pre match show today and he said that Pakistani openers are conservative. Hence the Pakistan team is unlikely to score 180-200 but mostly in 160 range.

Therefore playing 4 pacers makes sense for them.

Discuss

I am sorry to say that it’s hard to believe Gambhir is unbiased. I LOVED some of his innings, but his commentary is hard to digest as a Pakistan fan and I switched the channel.

Rizwan stats as opener (excluding his innings down the order)
Avg 60, SR 130

Gautham Gambhir
Avg 27, SR 119

Based on these stats alone Gambhir must be ultra conservative then? Even if you account for higher RR nowadays, it’s still really bad given Imran Nazir and Afridi have SRs of 150 during the same era.
 
Gameplans are made when you have a coach and a set up along with a captain who has ideas..

Our players are not bad, our team overall comes in the top 4 teams. Team is good, issue is the team management.

When Misbah was in charge, he never wanted Babar to be captain because Babar is not someone that is captain material. He doesn't know how to make game strategies and than play out those strategies. Bit like Tendulkar, a good batsman but not someone who could make strategies as a captain.

Imran Khan forced the Chairman at the time that Babar needs to be captain, and thus we got Babar as captain.

Now when Misbah was there, he helped the team with the game planning and all. Babar had 0 clue and it was all Misbah doing the work, selecting players and everything. Babar only cared to select Usman Qadir or Imam Ul Haq, thats about it.

Misbah gets kicked out by Rameez, and Rameez comes in also says he doesnt believe in coaches, players dont need coaches blabla.

Now, they hire Saqlain Mushtaq for a series, keep Babar as captain with full charge. Babar now doesnt have a proper coach like Misbah and he is all over the place. Saqlain Mushtaq joins him along with Mohammad Yousuf. Now they dont sit and make plans, they dont decide oh lets play some fast cricket and take advantage of the PP.
Also another issue is that Babar is not a team player, he is not flexible. For him, his runs comes first, which is why he opens and not play 1 down.

In the PSL with Karachi Kings, Waseem Akram was fed up with him, because they lost 9 games on the trot and Waseem kept saying move to one down so that we can try something else in the opening position and you can come after the ball or pitch doesnt offer the intial movement. Babar couldn't care less because Babar prefers to play a few dot balls to play his long innings.

Anyways, with Saqlain as coach and Babar as the head of all affairs, guy has no idea what to do, and each game he was going in with no strategy what so ever.

We lost to Zimbabwe today and people are calling this team bad, trust me, this team is very good. The fact that they won many matches with a bad captain shows the team is good. If this team was bad than we would had lost all matches with the terrible captain.

Babar doesnt think like a captain, he goes with the flow. So if first 5 overs will be pacers an the rest will be spinners till 14, he will do that. He wont experiment and try to make sure to bowl part timers so that main bowlers who are getting hit cannot be stopped.

He puts himself in a corner and thats what he did in the semi finals against Australia which we lost because Babar got scared that hafeez would be attacked.

Even now in this World Cup, the team has been selected without planning. The intial squad had Usman Qadir, we had 3 spinners in a squad of 15 for the world t20. We didnt take a pace bowling allrounder.

And to make it worse, everyone on this forum knows Haider Ali is clueless, Babar decided to play him against Zimbabwe again and he got out to a nothing delivery first ball.

Its not like Babar and Rizwan cant bat fast, problem is Babar is taking decision taht we will bat like this so that we bat till the end. That doesnt work in Australia because boundaries come in the PP here. A batter lasting 50-60 runs by rotating stirke cant finish innings because you get tired.

But no Babar isn't gonna learn or listen.

This is why you dont make captains, this is why you keep your PM away from cricket, and this is why YOU NEED COACHES IN CRICKET!
 
I am sorry to say that it’s hard to believe Gambhir is unbiased. I LOVED some of his innings, but his commentary is hard to digest as a Pakistan fan and I switched the channel.

Rizwan stats as opener (excluding his innings down the order)
Avg 60, SR 130

Gautham Gambhir
Avg 27, SR 119

Based on these stats alone Gambhir must be ultra conservative then? Even if you account for higher RR nowadays, it’s still really bad given Imran Nazir and Afridi have SRs of 150 during the same era.

Gambhir steps on the gas when needed. Check India's batting against Nwe zealand chasing a total of 190 in the same world cup. india reached 76 in 5.3 overs. Gambhir destroyed Shane Bond.
 
Fakhar e Alam when he was defending Rizwan and Babar quoting their averages and performances of late, Waqar fired back, Fakhar don't talk to me about averages, this is T20 Cricket, fine if you are talking about ODI or test matches, sure I will be impressed with someone's average, fair enough but in T20 Cricket I only care about strike rate.

Sure Babar and Rizwan have delivered on low slow subcontinent wickets but on tricky wickets like the one in Perth, you can't just blindly spend time at the wicket without going for runs. In these conditions you have to take risks and go for it and if you lose wickets in the process then so be it.

If you look at all the other teams like Australia, England, New Zealand, South Africa and even India, the batsman come really hard at you in the first 6 overs, there is some serious anger in their stroke play but Pakistan is hell bent on still persisting with a slow, steady approach.
 
I must admit to always questioning this philosophy of believing scores of 160-170 are fine because they believe they have the bowlers to defend it. While they've had a decent win/loss record adopting this philosophy, it's always felt very limiting to me, and also means that even though Pakistan are quite a consistent side, their high bar is lower than the other top sides.

Furthermore I've never understood why you would open with 2 batsmen with such a similar type of game and approach as Babar and Rizwan. Surely one should come in the middle order, so they have 1 accumulator and one aggressive batsman rather than the 2 accumulators up front. It's hard to see them ever getting a 220+ score with this approach, but sides like Australia, SA, NZ & India are capable of >220 + scores on a very good day, even if they aren't as consistent as Pakistan. Poor strategy.
 
The CS Mohd Wasim selected both Fakhar Zaman and Sharjeel Khan in early 2021 assuming the team management would try these two players as openers.

However Babar decided to do away with these players in the top order and open with both Rizwan and Babar himself. Sharjeel lost his place and Fakhar lost his way in the middle order. Rest is history
 
Gameplans are made when you have a coach and a set up along with a captain who has ideas..

Our players are not bad, our team overall comes in the top 4 teams. Team is good, issue is the team management.

When Misbah was in charge, he never wanted Babar to be captain because Babar is not someone that is captain material. He doesn't know how to make game strategies and than play out those strategies. Bit like Tendulkar, a good batsman but not someone who could make strategies as a captain.

Imran Khan forced the Chairman at the time that Babar needs to be captain, and thus we got Babar as captain.

Now when Misbah was there, he helped the team with the game planning and all. Babar had 0 clue and it was all Misbah doing the work, selecting players and everything. Babar only cared to select Usman Qadir or Imam Ul Haq, thats about it.

Misbah gets kicked out by Rameez, and Rameez comes in also says he doesnt believe in coaches, players dont need coaches blabla.

Now, they hire Saqlain Mushtaq for a series, keep Babar as captain with full charge. Babar now doesnt have a proper coach like Misbah and he is all over the place. Saqlain Mushtaq joins him along with Mohammad Yousuf. Now they dont sit and make plans, they dont decide oh lets play some fast cricket and take advantage of the PP.
Also another issue is that Babar is not a team player, he is not flexible. For him, his runs comes first, which is why he opens and not play 1 down.

In the PSL with Karachi Kings, Waseem Akram was fed up with him, because they lost 9 games on the trot and Waseem kept saying move to one down so that we can try something else in the opening position and you can come after the ball or pitch doesnt offer the intial movement. Babar couldn't care less because Babar prefers to play a few dot balls to play his long innings.

Anyways, with Saqlain as coach and Babar as the head of all affairs, guy has no idea what to do, and each game he was going in with no strategy what so ever.

We lost to Zimbabwe today and people are calling this team bad, trust me, this team is very good. The fact that they won many matches with a bad captain shows the team is good. If this team was bad than we would had lost all matches with the terrible captain.

Babar doesnt think like a captain, he goes with the flow. So if first 5 overs will be pacers an the rest will be spinners till 14, he will do that. He wont experiment and try to make sure to bowl part timers so that main bowlers who are getting hit cannot be stopped.

He puts himself in a corner and thats what he did in the semi finals against Australia which we lost because Babar got scared that hafeez would be attacked.

Even now in this World Cup, the team has been selected without planning. The intial squad had Usman Qadir, we had 3 spinners in a squad of 15 for the world t20. We didnt take a pace bowling allrounder.

And to make it worse, everyone on this forum knows Haider Ali is clueless, Babar decided to play him against Zimbabwe again and he got out to a nothing delivery first ball.

Its not like Babar and Rizwan cant bat fast, problem is Babar is taking decision taht we will bat like this so that we bat till the end. That doesnt work in Australia because boundaries come in the PP here. A batter lasting 50-60 runs by rotating stirke cant finish innings because you get tired.

But no Babar isn't gonna learn or listen.

This is why you dont make captains, this is why you keep your PM away from cricket, and this is why YOU NEED COACHES IN CRICKET!

Oh give it a rest. Misbah indoctrinated this whole generation with this tuk tuk approach.

Things were no better when Misbah was there. In fact, when he left it felt like the shackles had come off and we started playing with more freedom and expression.

The problem in the last year in LOIs has been about Babar, Rizwan and Imam’s stats chasing. No one has had any time in the middle because these selfish players have been hogging all the batting. Sometimes rest yourselves in meaningless matches, change the order. EXPERIMENT.

On flat pitches, against mediocre opposition all we get is babar, imam, rizwan - plenty of batting practice. And even if it is just these 3 batting, they have always just played the same way. Match after match. They haven’t tried anything new. Rizwan hasn’t tried to improve his offside game. Babar hasn’t tried to bring the bottom hand more in to it. Imam hasn’t tried to go hell for leather.

One thing that has improved without Misbah is the bowling. We have more pace and more bite. The trundlers are slowly being put to the side.
 
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] where have you been for the last two years?

He’s more worried about PCB inviting BCCI for a tour

Doesn’t actually follow the cricket
 
Fakhar e Alam when he was defending Rizwan and Babar quoting their averages and performances of late, Waqar fired back, Fakhar don't talk to me about averages, this is T20 Cricket, fine if you are talking about ODI or test matches, sure I will be impressed with someone's average, fair enough but in T20 Cricket I only care about strike rate.

Sure Babar and Rizwan have delivered on low slow subcontinent wickets but on tricky wickets like the one in Perth, you can't just blindly spend time at the wicket without going for runs. In these conditions you have to take risks and go for it and if you lose wickets in the process then so be it.

If you look at all the other teams like Australia, England, New Zealand, South Africa and even India, the batsman come really hard at you in the first 6 overs, there is some serious anger in their stroke play but Pakistan is hell bent on still persisting with a slow, steady approach.
Typically reactive comment from Waqar, he was the assistant coach when this Babar-Rizwan pairing was fixed. Was he not worried about their SRs then ?
 
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] where have you been for the last two years?

Where Pakistan beat India in a WC match for the first time in 30 years.

And where pakistan reached the knockouts of a T20 WC for the first time since 2012.
 
I have backed these openers before but i got to say that they have been kind of exposed in Aussie conditions.

I still don't think they are a problem in Asian conditions. However, it has become necessary to make some tweaks now in order to fix some issues.

I believe for the long term health of the team, Babar should move at 3 and Rizwan at 4.

Haider and Fakhar to open.

This would also fix the middle order issue to some extent.
 
He’s more worried about PCB inviting BCCI for a tour

Doesn’t actually follow the cricket

Not too long ago PP fans were celebrating RizBab taking pakistan over the line without any loss vs India in the 2021 T20 WC.

What happened now?

I will tell you, what happened, this is not UAE and hence the struggle versus pace bounce and movement.
 
Gambhir steps on the gas when needed. Check India's batting against Nwe zealand chasing a total of 190 in the same world cup. india reached 76 in 5.3 overs. Gambhir destroyed Shane Bond.

You can’t cherry pick innings. I’ve seen several innings where he played too slowly costing India games. Even Babar has scored at 200 SR vs B/C attacks chasing down 200+ Totals.
There is nowhere to hide for a player like Gambhir with 119 SR in an era when 125 was par. He, of all people has not earned the right to call Rizwan/Babar conservative.
 
Where Pakistan beat India in a WC match for the first time in 30 years.

And where pakistan reached the knockouts of a T20 WC for the first time since 2012.

??! What's this got to do with the Pakistan openers being conservative?
 
The middle order still is a concern, Iftikhar needs more consistent, Asif & Haider are done. Haider has time but he needs to be discarded now.

Shan Masood is a difficult one as he has shown stability but he lacks the aggression like Rizwan-Babar. Shadab Khan & Mohammad Nawaz have had a rare good performance but still needs to fine tune there batting.
 
It is a well known fact. Also, that's when they are able to maximize the output.

If you tell Rohit Sharma to score explosively, he will average 28 but strike at 145 and if you tell him to be conservative, he will average 40 at 130 too.

But for Rizbab, it is only one way which is conservative. If they go the explosive mode and decide to strike at 145 consistently they will fail to make any impact in this format.
 
You can’t cherry pick innings. I’ve seen several innings where he played too slowly costing India games. Even Babar has scored at 200 SR vs B/C attacks chasing down 200+ Totals.
There is nowhere to hide for a player like Gambhir with 119 SR in an era when 125 was par. He, of all people has not earned the right to call Rizwan/Babar conservative.

No way. Gambhir was never called slow, selfish ever. Par scores were low. Don't compare sloggers like Afridi, Imran nazir with Gambhir who played 2 of the most significantly world cup winning knocks. He always played appropriately and according to the situation.
 
Lol, very awkward situation in the Pavilion show where Waqar commented that he used to voice his reservations about Babar and Rizwan opening the batting but because he was just the bowling coach, he could only voice his opinions but Babar and Misbah were the one's in charge. He literally threw Misbah under the bus there. Misbah being the non-confrontational individual he is, accepted that he is responsible and then deflected the question.
 
No way. Gambhir was never called slow, selfish ever. Par scores were low. Don't compare sloggers like Afridi, Imran nazir with Gambhir who played 2 of the most significantly world cup winning knocks. He always played appropriately and according to the situation.

If he wasn't called one doesn't mean he wasn't one. And thats what my point is. Gambhir's career SR is 119 over 36 games, which is bang average. Data doesn't lie. Par scores haven't changed that much, and SR of 119 was average 5-10 years ago and pretty much in-line with what 129 would be considered today. Sehwag's SR for example is 145.

Afridi also played significant innings. Don't forget his match-winning 50s in semi-final and finals of 2009 WC.
 
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The CS Mohd Wasim selected both Fakhar Zaman and Sharjeel Khan in early 2021 assuming the team management would try these two players as openers.

However Babar decided to do away with these players in the top order and open with both Rizwan and Babar himself. Sharjeel lost his place and Fakhar lost his way in the middle order. Rest is history

Imagine Fakhar and Sharjeel opening. That is one scary combo.
 
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