Are the green pitches in domestic cricket to blame for the team's problems to some extent?

[Slog]

Anyone who follows domestic cricket would know that in the past 3 or so years the majority of the domestic cricket pitches are green mambas whenever it is possible.

A lot of grass is left on these pitches meaning that there is a lot of movement. However due to the inherent nature of the pitches there is not much bounce. So there is seam and low bounce.

I guess the thinking behind this decision was to equip our batsmmen for the moving deliveries and get used to seam.

However, I feel if anything these green and wet wickets have had a negative effect on our players overall

Bowling:
The seamers get wickets without trying too hard. This is why we have bowlers like Hammad Azam who are at best ordinary bowlers averaging a crazy 18 in FC cricket. And someone who looked a club level bowler in international cricket like Abdur Rauf averaged 17!! AND HE IS 36 years old!! Same with Sohail Khan with a sub 20 average. He is decent but to suggest he is anywhere as good as a 22 avg bowler is ridiculous/

These medium pace bowlers don't bang it in and bowl with pace anymore. Previously mediocre medium pacers used to get found out in domestic cricket only but now they end up with a decent amount of wickets more due to the purchase the wicket offers than their own skill level. And the yhave no reason to bowl as fast as they want which might also explain why we are ending up with medium pace bowlers more often that not.

But one of the major disadvantages probably is that the seamers can now do well without the need to innovate and work on things like reverse swing or come up with new varieties as theire is enough purchase in the pitch.

Batting:
The batsmen are not equipped to bat on these seaming wickets and when they invariably get out it wrecks their confidence even more. They end up not having the confidence to bat in any kinds of conditions if their head is muddled enough. Also because of these wickets the trend of total scores has also reduced.

A disadvantage of this is that the batsmen just are not equipped or have the patience to bat for long periods of time anymore. Atleast on flat tracks despite the ease of conditions batsmen would be encouraged to bat for longer periods and thus work on their concentration and patience. However due to the nature of these green pitches playing long innings is a thing of the past.

This is what I think is to blame for the super short attention span of all our young batsmen!! They get to 30 or 40 and after that they just aren't used to grinding out a tough period and just throw their wicket away.

Also we haven't really played on green wickets at international level in the past few years (our SA tour had somewhat flat pitches) to even see if it has had some good effect on our batsmen in terms of their ability to play the moving ball.

Anyways I feel that that these green grassy wickets at domestic level have had an ooverall negative effect on our cricket.

 

[Slog]

Also adding to the batsmen part. Example is that all our batsmen of the past 3-4 yrs have this issue so basically ones under 25-26 yrs old.

Others like Azhar Ali and Shafiq are still better and can somewhat stay in for a long innings

 

[rhony]

Not sure about that. India went the same way 2 to 3 years ago and Bhajji even commented that trundlers are now Malcolm Marshalls in domestic cricket. I even see green pitches laid out in IPL this year. This improved the Indian bowling. How it affected the Indian batting remains to be seen in a few years when the youngsters play in Eng, NZ after years of practice on green tops in domestic cricket. Pakistani batting is terrible and their bowling is some where between above average and good but not consistent enough. However, the biggest problem is with the fitness and fielding. Batsmen getting out after making 30 runs is most probably due to fitness issues as they can't concentrate for long periods of time. The less we talk about the fielding the better. Junaid dropped a sitter from Mushfiqur when he was in his 30s. Tamim was dropped as well in the 1st ODI. Do you think they would have scored 329 if they lost those wickets? Look at the dropped catches in the world cup against Aus, Ind, WI. There are bigger problems than just green tops in domestic cricket

 

[kamz]

Pakistan doesnt have green wickets like australia where there is true bounce. Its like very low bounce and everything seams like anything!

+

The grays ball swings like anything.

Hence you see bowlers with little or limited skill set taking heap of wickets and the batsmen just focuses on getting 30+ to keep himself in the side and their confidence up

 

[Slog]

Pakistan doesnt have green wickets like australia where there is true bounce. Its like very low bounce and everything seams like anything!

+

The grays ball swings like anything.

Hence you see bowlers with little or limited skill set taking heap of wickets and the batsmen just focuses on getting 30+ to keep himself in the side and their confidence up

yes that's what im saying

there seam but still low bounce


so its not really helping the batsmen much either because the ball still isn't going above knee roll.

so its nt really replicating conditions anywhere and they are still going to come up short in bouncy conditions

 

[cricfan14]

Wouldn't switching the balls be as critical of a change? I understand it is expensive, but the PCB is not poor. There is absolutely no acceptable explanation for why a domestic league aiming to feed into a national team shouldn't be using regulation Kookaburra balls.

 

[wrongun]

PCB should have 1 or 2 domestic team pitches relaid so they will bounce- PCB pays the cost but make sure the team plays at a stadium which can be used for internationals when cricket returns.

2 other grounds should prep specifically dry wickets.

The rest just normal Pakistani wickets.

That way your batsmen/bowlers get some variety and experience.

 

[yadunoe]

Wouldn't switching the balls be as critical of a change? I understand it is expensive, but the PCB is not poor. There is absolutely no acceptable explanation for why a domestic league aiming to feed into a national team shouldn't be using regulation Kookaburra balls.

more so the the pitches low quality balls swing more so its not good in judging the bowlers we should stick with the seaming wickets and use proper bowls .

 

[Dr_Bassim]

And that would make sense if he had world class batsmen before and suddenly it all changed.

In last 30 years of so, there have been 5-6 batsmen of international caliber.

1. Javed Miandad
2. Inzimam ul Haq
3. Saeed Anwar
4. Mohammad Yousaf
5. Younis Khan (tests only).
6. Misbah ( borderline case but I would call him great for Pakistan).

So considering that, we aren't doing anything wrong or right.

Just that we are in a phase where world class batsmen are not present at the moment.

We will find one eventually.

But we will always be bowling oriented nation.

 

[Slog]

And that would make sense if he had world class batsmen before and suddenly it all changed.

In last 30 years of so, there have been 5-6 batsmen of international caliber.

1. Javed Miandad
2. Inzimam ul Haq
3. Saeed Anwar
4. Mohammad Yousaf
5. Younis Khan (tests only).
6. Misbah ( borderline case but I would call him great for Pakistan).

So considering that, we aren't doing anything wrong or right.

Just that we are in a phase where world class batsmen are not present at the moment.

We will find one eventually.

But we will always be bowling oriented nation.

But dont you think these green pitches trend mght even negatively affect our ability to produce good fast bowlers

Mind you guys like Imran, Wasim, Waqar credit the unresponsive pitches in Pakistan for forcing them to innovate and perfect unconventional methods which made them so lethal. But with these green pitches coupled with out less than stellar batsmen at both domestic and international level it means that many of these seamers/fast bowlers are getting cheap wickets at domestic level and not challenging them to work hard and come up with new things

As I mentioned.

Abdur Rauf who has played for Pakistan and was a very average bowler by all accounts averaged 17 in the last FC season at the age of THIRTY SIX!!! And 36 officially. Dunno what he might be actually.

Ehsan Adil averages 20 in his whole first class career and while he has shown some raw promise at international level by no means would you think he is a 20 average bowler

Same with Hammad Azam. Guys averages 18 in FC. Anyone who has seen him play knows that he is not as good as those stats. Infact he is fairly average purely as a bowler.

Ehsan and Hammad have both played their FC careers on these green mambas and hence they have these inflated stats.

My point is that these green pitches gives bowlers such as the above easy wickets without working so hard and thus stops them from developing like the bowlers of yesteryears

 

[Slog]

Also I feel this green pitch phenomena just shows the ineptness and laziness of the PCB. They were under pressure to have sporting wickets in domestic level. Rather than actually workng hard and preparing good pitches all they did was make the pitches a grass field. Some of the domestic pitches have same color as the outfield

 

[emranabbas]

Poorly constructed leagues and very low standards by Pakistan is the reason TBF

 

[MMHS]

I completely agree with the argument that wicket is the major culprit (along with the structure), but it's not seaming wicket - RATHER BECAUSE OF DEAD WICKET. The logic is perfectly OK, however, it's not actually green wickets, it's low & slow wickets with a bit of deep rooted grass on soft surface - couple of hours sun, the moisture evaporates, green becomes brown & it becomes absolute DEAD - no bounce, absolutely no pace & no side-wise movement either. Besides, if you mow the grass before match, it becomes absolutely dead track from Day 1 as there was never any pace or bounce.

Previously, on drier wickets, bowlers could reverse the ball, & spinners could turn it, now it doesn't rough up much (as the outfield & wicket has some grass now) & the administration is strict on the outer surface of the ball. Bowlers are getting wickets with little "skill" or "plan", rather they are getting wickets for accuracy & persistence. Almost every successful bowler in PAK domestics is very accurate bowlers - monotonous, less variation or pace, little flight or swing & worst part is, over 80% wickets are bowled or LBW - simply keep on line, shooters 'll do the rest.

On softer surface, with deep rooted grass, once the freshness is burnt, it becomes exactly like a Tennis Clay court. And, unlike IND, PAK wickets doesn't crumble from day 3/4, because of the deep rooted grass. In IND, Test wickets crumbles by every day - gets uneven & double paced - in PAK top surface remains firm for the roots, but becomes slower & lower by every day with the reduction of moisture. Biggest damage is, PAK new ball bowlers are simply not learning the use of new ball - inferior to ZIM or IND, when it comes to the use of new ball - they simply wait for the new ball to lose it's shine & don't bother for the conventional swing at all. It can't be that despite playing on seeming wickets at home, each & every bowler bowls at wrong line or length on green tops. Wickets with a bit pace & bounce actually cracks in later stages like AUS, it doesn't happen in PAK as the soil content is poor (less clay).

For batsmen - it's possibly the worst type of wicket. Apart from first 2 hours, ball comes at very slower pace - so on the rise drives are impossible, unless it's a genuine half-volley. Ball doesn't bounce & loses its' pace once pitched, so batsmen can't use the pace for horizontal bat shots or back-foot drives. Pull is one shot finished from PAK game - most of the pulls ends up in hands now days. Another alarming defect is the back-lift, because of dead slow & low wickets, batsmen are extremely afraid for high back-lift - they are grafters like Azhar or Shehzad. Spinners bowl at faster pace without flight, which has taken classical sin play out of PAK batting - hardly any feet movement, dancing down, lap sweep or laid cut. Slightest of turn or variation, they panic like earthquake, Fawad was totally at sea against BD part-timers, once they went round the wicket. Besides, due to the slowness & low bounce batsmen are not learning to use the pace of the ball for singles & most of them are becoming bottom had butchers, tries to out muscle, rather than time the shot.

Had seeming wicket been bad for batsmen or bowler, Yorkshire, Lancashire & Nottinghamshire won't have produced half of world's cricket greats before WW II. Best spinners 'll always enjoy a bit of grass if there is some bounce on the wicket, because they can skid through with their flight. PAK batsmen are worse than Irish, if there is any movement off the wicket, because on domestic tracks, it actually doesn't seem off the wicket to trouble them. I agree with the desperation for batsman - can't score fast, can't survive with technique only - sometimes a shooter or a cracker 'll end the struggle, rather try to blast around.

Bombay, Bridgetown, Surrey (Oval), Yorkshire (Headingley), Transvaal, NSW & South Australia has produced majority of the greatest batsmen in world - all of the wickets at their prime grounds are solid, firm wickets with perfect even pace & bounce where ball comes on to bat - batsmen gets value for their shots, can play every shot on book & can back their technique to survive for hours, sessions, days together. Cricket is meant to play for runs or get batsmen out, not to survive for hours or restrict scoring rate - dead tracks actually kills the spirit of the game.

I understand PCB's effort to prepare sporting wickets, which should be appreciated; but their incompetent groundsmen 'll never be able to accomplish that. Best way was to go BCB route - bring an Aussie/English curator for 2 years contract - he 'll help preparing wickets in 30/35 grounds across the country & 'll mentor 25-30 groundsmen; BUT I understand lots of vaunted ego is the issue. In many cases we were blessed without any cricket establishments & ego - foreign experts could teach few things from scratch & teach right way, uninterrupted & unconditionally (even they imported grass seeds).

 

[junaid.ahmed]

On softer surface, with deep rooted grass, once the freshness is burnt, it becomes exactly like a Tennis Clay court. And, unlike IND, PAK wickets doesn't crumble from day 3/4, because of the deep rooted grass. In IND, Test wickets crumbles by every day - gets uneven & double paced - in PAK top surface remains firm for the roots, but becomes slower & lower by every day with the reduction of moisture. Biggest damage is, PAK new ball bowlers are simply not learning the use of new ball - inferior to ZIM or IND, when it comes to the use of new ball - they simply wait for the new ball to lose it's shine & don't bother for the conventional swing at all. It can't be that despite playing on seeming wickets at home, each & every bowler bowls at wrong line or length on green tops. Wickets with a bit pace & bounce actually cracks in later stages like AUS, it doesn't happen in PAK as the soil content is poor (less clay).

top point

it was year 2007 when pak lost match ag ireland on a green wicket & exit out of the WC first stage, the nonsense authorities of pcb were in usual urgency & decided that domestic wickets are batting paradises so our batsmen are not capable to play on green wickets where the ball move an inch. Without understanding the fact that cricket world is changing they begin to prepare green wickets & evolution of so called technical & defensive batsmen started, sparks players like navid latif were dried out from domestic circle & even if they were exist they cant be unable to play their natural game & replaced by over conscious, coward & frightened lot of todays batsmen. Even the chairman of that time openly said that I will see how the batmen easily come out after scoring a century.
This strategy of preparing bowling wickets helping the bowler negatively who are getting wickets easily without any hardwork, overweight & unfit bowlers like sohail khan averaging better than lillee in domestic matches & why they will work hard for wickets if they easily getting by little work, resulting when they enter in international scenario they dnt know how & where to bowl.
The most rubbish part is that director of domestic cricket acclaimed that pak domestic system is one and the same to the english domestic system
Anyway to save the things from going towards more worst they have to prepare balance wickets of around 250-280 scores where only a better bowler & a better batsman come out. PCB have to spent millions of rupees purely on quickest grounds umpires & on players too, paying 10 lac to director domestic & ten thousand to the groundsmen will not work.

 

[junaid.ahmed]

And that would make sense if he had world class batsmen before and suddenly it all changed.

In last 30 years of so, there have been 5-6 batsmen of international caliber.

1. Javed Miandad
2. Inzimam ul Haq
3. Saeed Anwar
4. Mohammad Yousaf
5. Younis Khan (tests only).
6. Misbah ( borderline case but I would call him great for Pakistan).

So considering that, we aren't doing anything wrong or right.

Just that we are in a phase where world class batsmen are not present at the moment.

We will find one eventually.

But we will always be bowling oriented nation.

bowling oriented nation with hafeez attacking with the new ball

 

[#GreenRoars]

every thread is about blaming. come on,
is this thing BLAME is so much necessary ?

 

[kamz]

there was one instance where a first class match played in Pindi.

the players complained about the pitch and called up Shafiq Papa who was heading up the domestic first class ops in PCB. So shafiq papa asked the players to send him a video or a picture of the pitch.

After receiving the file he called back the team and said the following "yaar pitch ki video bhejne ke liye kaha tha ground/outfield ki nahi" )

The pitch was no different to the green grass on the outfield lol

 

[Markhor]

I don't understand why we must go from one extreme to another, from dead highways to green mambas. Can't we have some balance, a little bit for the seamers on the first couple of days and some turn for the spinners on Days 4/5 but generally a wicket where batsmen can also get runs if they apply themselves.

 

[zabalestmsm]

How can u say there are green pitches?? Even if there are green pitches still there are some or much batsmen who have good averages. And its not necessary that every pitch is a green one. And if some bowlers average great then at least u must give some credit to the bowlers as well rather than giving more credit to the green pitches. And blaming green pitches is pre mature. First we must give ample chances to the most deserving players before blaming green pitches etc.

 

[Slog]

How can u say there are green pitches?? Even if there are green pitches still there are some or much batsmen who have good averages. And its not necessary that every pitch is a green one. And if some bowlers average great then at least u must give some credit to the bowlers as well rather than giving more credit to the green pitches. And blaming green pitches is pre mature. First we must give ample chances to the most deserving players before blaming green pitches etc.

When you see bowlers like a 36 yr old Abdur Rauf averaging 17 in a season you know theres a problem.

 

[battler]

A good wicket is a pitch where batsmen get value for their shots and bowlers get rewards for bowling good deliveries.
In India I rate Eden gardens and Wankhede Mumbai as the 2 best pitches for test cricket.
Eden gardens is almost perfect for test cricket, First hour or so you will get a bit of swing with the new ball, then next 3-4 hours will be good for batting and in the last hour or so ball will reverse nicely and as the test match progresses spinners will get good purchase as well.
The Nagpur wicket which was provided for the India -England test 2-3 years back was one of the worst test pitches I have seen in India for years, only the first few hours had a bit of uneven bounce for the bowlers after that it became a totally dead wicket with no seam,swing,bounce or spin. Batsmen weren't getting out because the had become slow and they weren't able to score runs because the ball wouldn't come onto the bat.
Basically it discouraged goid bowling and batting and culminated in one of the most boring draws.

 

[battler]

*Batsmen weren't getting out because the wicket had become slow

 

[Dr_Bassim]

bowling oriented nation with hafeez attacking with the new ball

I don't know stats but Hafeez was a pretty good new ball bowler.

But then some fast pretender ATG's we had.

It's not unheard of anyways.

I think Deepak Patil opened the bowling for NZ as a spinner in 92 maybe?

 

[Canistani Hero]

Bring in the Kookabura

 

[Syed1]

Why cannot first class match be played on two different pitches. Both teams bat on the same pitch for their first innings and the second innings are on a different pitch. One of the pitches can be dry and turning, while the other assists seam movement.

 

[zabalestmsm]

When you see bowlers like a 36 yr old Abdur Rauf averaging 17 in a season you know theres a problem.

So what? He must have bowled really. Experience helps a lot.

 

[zabalestmsm]

*bowled really well

 

[PennOne]

there is only ONE problem.


The best team is not chosen


You can say these are the best players in Pakistan


TRUTH: most of these are NOT the best players in Pakistan

 

[Slog]

there is only ONE problem.


The best team is not chosen


You can say these are the best players in Pakistan


TRUTH: most of these are NOT the best players in Pakistan

they are.

get out of these delusions

the ones in domestic cricket are not considerably better, if at all better, than the ones in the team

this is just a defense mechanism to say that the best players are not playing

 

[PennOne]

they are.

get out of these delusions

the ones in domestic cricket are not considerably better, if at all better, than the ones in the team

this is just a defense mechanism to say that the best players are not playing

ODI :
Saeed Ajmal - No
Hafeez - No
Junaid Khan - No
Umar Gul - No
Azhar Ali - No
Asad Shafiq - No
Fawad Alam - No

Who else is left?

 

[Slog]

ODI :
Saeed Ajmal - No
Hafeez - No
Junaid Khan - No
Umar Gul - No
Azhar Ali - No
Asad Shafiq - No
Fawad Alam - No

Who else is left?

the ones not playing are not significantly better

in mamny cases they are worst

 

[Slog]

ODI :
Saeed Ajmal - No
Hafeez - No
Junaid Khan - No
Umar Gul - No
Azhar Ali - No
Asad Shafiq - No
Fawad Alam - No

Who else is left?

also who do you want to replace fawad alam and azhar ali or hafeez

shehzad and umar akmal?? )

 

[PennOne]

also who do you want to replace fawad alam and azhar ali or hafeez

shehzad and umar akmal?? )

they were the only good decisions, dropping them and keeping Shoaib Malik out of the side.

 

[Slog]

they were the only good decisions, dropping them and keeping Shoaib Malik out of the side.

which probes that the replacements are the best we have

till we get out of this delusion that we have some superstars sitting back home who are not being given fair chances, we will not fix our situation

the reason we are not doing well is not because the best players aren't playing. its because the talent poor as a whole is ordinary and ill equipped to handle modern cricket

 

[ForeverIndian]

Same is the case here in India. Vinay kumar looks like Malcolm Marshall and Glenn McGrath rolled into one.

 

[junaid.ahmed]

I don't know stats but Hafeez was a pretty good new ball bowler.

But then some fast pretender ATG's we had.

It's not unheard of anyways.

I think Deepak Patil opened the bowling for NZ as a spinner in 92 maybe?

hafeez open with the new ball bcz we dnt have a single fast bowler who can handle new kookaburra & yes deepak with new ball bcz nz was lack of fasters at that time only danny was better, anyway nz is not the bowling oriented nation

 

[Chrish]

It's actually change in the right direction if true.. At least the batsmen won't be humiliated when they tour overseas

 

[axl100mph]

It's actually change in the right direction if true.. At least the batsmen won't be humiliated when they tour overseas

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]
It was after 2003 that initiative was taken to change the pitches.

The policy was to make them really green.
However, not all of them r maintained, so most of em turn into slow, low turners or complete minefields.
So what is the result of that?


1)Batsmen are never set, as the wicket can misbehave anytime. As a result, they don't learn how to make big scores and seem content with 50's.
And then we blame and

2)Batsmen are not confident about maneavuring the ball into gaps as it is too much risk for too little gain.
As a result they either hack it or block it. It is all hit and miss
And then we blame and .

The green tops that can't be separated from the rest of the outfield, coupled with Gray's balls make bowlers like Hammad seem like .
No wonder, the selectors dont trust sadaf.

Plus, because the surface does everything for the bowler, all they have to do is to land it on the seam.
As a result, when play int. Cricket, they r oblivious as to how to swing the ball.

Because of the pitches, trundling gets encouraged and bowling fast is not required.
No wonder, we have stopped producing phaast bowlers.


What do the minefields do to spinners?
Because they r so slow, the spinners have to create their own pace, therefore they become programmed to bowl quicker.
So why was everyone surprised when yasir shah didn't even flight one delivery against India?

These slow surfaces also make bowlers chuck as bowling fast spin is the only way to survive.
No wonder Nathan Lyon and graeme swann who r so successful in their homes couldnt buy a wicket in the UAE, where pitches were not even half as bad as they are in pak domestic.
Just wait for how yasir shah n co get treated down under and in england next year.

Until and unless these pitches as well as player salaries are not sorted out, we will never see world class quality in our team

 

[Slog]

Because of these pitches in domestic cricket our domestic and upcoming batsmen cannot play long innings to save their lives

At domestic 200-250 ends up becoming winning score and when in international cricket these same batsmen are confronted with flat tests of wickets they neither have the temperament and not are used to playing long innings

Won't be surprised if there wasn't even one double century in our FC season last year.

 

[Slog]

Anyone who follows domestic cricket would know that in the past 3 or so years the majority of the domestic cricket pitches are green mambas whenever it is possible.

A lot of grass is left on these pitches meaning that there is a lot of movement. However due to the inherent nature of the pitches there is not much bounce. So there is seam and low bounce.

I guess the thinking behind this decision was to equip our batsmmen for the moving deliveries and get used to seam.

However, I feel if anything these green and wet wickets have had a negative effect on our players overall

Bowling:
The seamers get wickets without trying too hard. This is why we have bowlers like Hammad Azam who are at best ordinary bowlers averaging a crazy 18 in FC cricket. And someone who looked a club level bowler in international cricket like Abdur Rauf averaged 17!! AND HE IS 36 years old!! Same with Sohail Khan with a sub 20 average. He is decent but to suggest he is anywhere as good as a 22 avg bowler is ridiculous/

These medium pace bowlers don't bang it in and bowl with pace anymore. Previously mediocre medium pacers used to get found out in domestic cricket only but now they end up with a decent amount of wickets more due to the purchase the wicket offers than their own skill level. And the yhave no reason to bowl as fast as they want which might also explain why we are ending up with medium pace bowlers more often that not.

But one of the major disadvantages probably is that the seamers can now do well without the need to innovate and work on things like reverse swing or come up with new varieties as theire is enough purchase in the pitch.

Made this thread ages ago and it seems chicken have come to roost. Total inability to hack it on batting friendly pitches and military median pace

Thoughts folks?
[MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] [MENTION=139288]Abdul[/MENTION] [MENTION=137997]Abdullah[/MENTION] @Moez [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION]

 

[Boi]

Definitely. Also is a major reason why we arent producing proper strokemakers needed for LOI's. the rest of the world has moved on to preparing flat decks for LOIs with 300 being the par score but how many 300+ scores have we seen in the ongoing One Day Cup? You have plodders like Shehzad and Masood leading the run scoring charts when its been proven time and again that they lack the strokes and ability to score quickly at the highest level.

 

[Abdul]

Made this thread ages ago and it seems chicken have come to roost. Total inability to hack it on batting friendly pitches and military median pace

Thoughts folks?

[MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] [MENTION=139288]Abdul[/MENTION] [MENTION=137997]Abdullah[/MENTION] @Moez [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION]

Yeah, these pitches are definitely to be blamed. These have been an issue for so long, and PCB still haven't done anything about this which is very frustrating.

The likes of Sadaf etc. pick up loads of wickets in domestic in domestic cricket and it's partially due to these pitches. These domestic legends get exposed as soon as they start playing international cricket.

We will keep getting mediocre cricketers for a long time to come because of this.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Made this thread ages ago and it seems chicken have come to roost. Total inability to hack it on batting friendly pitches and military median pace

Thoughts folks?

[MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] [MENTION=139288]Abdul[/MENTION] [MENTION=137997]Abdullah[/MENTION] @Moez [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION]

Aaj k din ka Assalamoalaikum Warehmatullah Slog !


Slog ! The pitches must be improved. The pitches are not upto international standards. grace ball should be banned and binned.


But


The state of the pitches has been same in last 10 to 15 years. If stats are a proof than look at the averages and strike rates of Fazl e Akbar, Abdur Rauf (once he slowed down), waqar ahmed, aizaz cheema, tanveer ahmed, khalil ahmed, asad ali, sami ullah niazi, imran ali, rashid latif etc in seasons they topped.


Pakistan has the potential to make most diverse pitches. This should be a huge advantage to both our batsman and bowlers.


Recommendations :


1. Ban and Binn grace ball at all cost.

2. Spread Domestic Cricket over 9 months with 3 months off wrt Fc, List A & T20 Cricket (Grade/Level1)

3. Spread domestic Cricket. Do not use limited grounds only. Use more venues. Bring Gujranwala, Quetta, Mardan, Ajk, faisalabad, abbotabad, multan back into picture.


Prepare your batsman and bowlers for all types of pitches.


For example Faisalabad and Sargodha wickets can mimic current UAE wickets. Make such wickets and let batsman and bowlers get used too especially in Fc cricket.

The curators should be instructed to make diamond cricket ground wicket and Gujranwala cricket stadium as fast and as bounciest as possible.


The curators should be instructed to make Lahore Baagh e Jinnah stadium, Abbotabad Cricket stadium & Mirpur cricket stadium wickets juicy with some grass assisting seam and swing bowling.


Rawalpindi & Peshawar wickets need to be made the way they were when Int Cricket was played there. Have slowed down recently. Qadaffi stadium wicket and National stadium wicket is fine. Let it remain same.


Hyderabad Cricket stadium wicket is also fine when made as per reputation od dead flat batsman patadise wicket assisting subcontinent batsman of playing long innings in heat & humidity.


This way the Batsmen and Bowlers will be tested more and will have decent experience of playing on all types of surfaces.


4. Academies in all Big Cities is a good step but we have very few professionally skilled and well equipped coaches. Moreover Coaches should be enrolled in behavioral sciences courses aswell. So that they learn how to treat junior players and how to manage and handle seniors.


Talent/Skill/Potential alone is nothing.


Give Keaton Jennings same county pitches same team mates and same oppositions with regular Pakistani coaches and never ever till last day of earth He will score 4-5 Fc hundreds in 1 season scoring 1000 plus runs and topping tables while averaging around 25 in last 4-5 seasons. Alot of the Credit goes to the Coaching staff who gave the finished product.


In this day and age you cannot think that suddenly from nowhere you will get an Inzamam, Yousuf, Saeed, Shoaib, Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Asif or Amir from nowhere. Raw talents. Last 10 years are an example. You have to produce players and raise the level of talents you have by working on them and improving their skillset by right coaching and training.


5. Whatever the domestic system is in place make sure that your Top 100 players do not miss out domestic Cricket. It makes no sense than a quality bowler isn't playing because Brighto Paints hasn't qualifed or Ptv hasn't qualified or PIA is relegated with the quality player missing 1 year of Cricket with both domestic (competitiveness) and international cricket suffering. Your best product needs to be in action.

For this I would go with Cities having Teams. With Top 8-12 districts being represented by 1 City and these cities should be Sponsored by departments.

And than the Pentangular Cup of FC or List A with Provincial teams plus GB, AJK & Capital+Fata team where top players of the season are selected. Since currently we striggle the most in Odi Cricket so for next 3 years I will have pentangular cup to be played only of List A format and It should be held in Spring Season of Pakistan. Let us imagine if it takes place suppose in this upcoming spring than only those venues should be selected for matches where pitches as close as English pitches can be made keeping in mind Champions Trophy 2017 and WC 2019 and most probably those pitches will be like the ones we experienced few months go in England.


6. More A tours of Aus, Nz, SA & Eng are needed.


7. We should try and get more frequent Int tours of senior teams of the above 4 countries.


8. Increase the match fee of domestic players 200 % and since the departments do not earn much since domestic matches do not get televised so PCB should have a system in place where they pay top 15 batsman, top 15 bowlers, top 5 allrounders and top 3 wicket keepers off last two consecutive seasons for next two years. As an incentive/reward plus so that those players can spend money on good nutrition and good training and can supplement their families better aswell.

If and when Int Cricket returns back to Pakistan than the above sytem should be abolished and than Pcb should get more domestic matches to be televised (generate income) plus they will have more money so than all the domestic players should get match fees or contracts comparable with what domestic players in India earn. Well that's a huge market so i ll say 60-70 % of that. Than playing cricket in Pakistan will be a suitable Career option even if you do not make it into Pakistan team.


9. Umpiring level at domestic (non-televised) matches needs to be monitored very very strictly. It is very very substandard.


10. Grounds repair and maintenance is in tatters. Needs to be improved massively.



Sorry for going off line.

 

[Markhor]

Made this thread ages ago and it seems chicken have come to roost. Total inability to hack it on batting friendly pitches and military median pace

Thoughts folks?

[MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] [MENTION=139288]Abdul[/MENTION] [MENTION=137997]Abdullah[/MENTION] @Moez [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION]

Its a very important topic. The pitches are detrimentally affecting our cricket in so many ways.

1) This idea that Misbah has encouraged this "tuk tuk" mentality is a big myth. If people really want to understand the "tuk tuk" attitude of some of our batsmen then look at the conditions they bat in. The domestic season takes place during the colder season in Pakistan so overhead conditions already favour seamers. Add that to the green and underprepared surfaces providing extravagant seam movement and you force the batsmen to go into survival mode on Days 1 and 2. THIS is why we end up with stonewallers and limited front foot batsmen who lack a range of shots - it wasn't a conspiracy plotted by evil Misbah-ul-Haq as some believe.

Meanwhile the seamers can simply let the conditions to the work for them, no wonder we've a generation of fast bowlers who are ineffective with the new ball on good batting wickets.

2) If the sun comes out, it'll bake the pitch turning it from green to brown. It becomes a low bounce phatta and the bowlers who looked like Marshall and Ambrose previously suddenly start toiling. This is why you see such perversely lopsided scorelines in QEA Trophy. Take the QEA final. The SAME team that limped to 21-6 in 1st innings then declare at 485-1 in the 2nd innings !

These pitches don't seem to deteriorate much either offering little turn, so instead of spinners being able to hone their craft and learning how to use flight and loop will end up darting the ball in, wicket-to-wicket for sake of control. The pitches are so slow so why bother trying to bowl for a batsmen's outside edge when the ball probably won't even carry ?

3) The low clay content and the dampness of Pakistani pitches means less bounce, so how can batsmen develop a backfoot game ? Its no surprise why our batsmen over the years have been ill-equipped for Australian conditions and the slow pace of the wickets means batsmen don't get value for their shots.

4) PCB curators will say we can't produce sporting wickets as "the weather is to blame." What a load of self-serving BS. So why is it that India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh produce better wickets than Pakistan ? Look at the pitches on our tour to Sri Lanka last year - Galle, P Sara Oval and Pallekele were ideal Asian cricket wickets providing something for everyone. Another example of an ideal surface was the one at The Oval this summer.

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] describes PCB groundsmen as "farmers" - oh bhai, please don't insult farmers who have more pride in their profession than these poorly trained, so-called "curators" ! As with most things, PCB can easily resolve this issue with will and investment. If it takes hiring a foreign curator like Andy Atkinson to oversee the process then so be it.

As [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] says - the ideal is a VARIETY of pitches. Look at Australia in their golden era, South Africa and England where different venues provide different challenges. We need hard bouncy tracks, green seamers AND our traditional slow, low turners. But when the pitches are almost uniformly woeful, you stunt the growth of your cricketers.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

And this my friends is the main issue for our static batting line up. Our domestic structure is one of the worst in the world and pitches either roads or day 5 wickets throughout the match. The latter one makes sure your batsmen forget to play their shots.

 

[Boi]

There was a lot of hope that things may improve with regards to the pitches once Muddassar Nazar was brought in as Director of Domestic Cricket and NCA but we havent heard a peep from him. What is he actually up to?

 

[MMHS]

Its a very important topic. The pitches are detrimentally affecting our cricket in so many ways.

1) This idea that Misbah has encouraged this "tuk tuk" mentality is a big myth. If people really want to understand the "tuk tuk" attitude of some of our batsmen then look at the conditions they bat in. The domestic season takes place during the colder season in Pakistan so overhead conditions already favour seamers. Add that to the green and underprepared surfaces providing extravagant seam movement and you force the batsmen to go into survival mode on Days 1 and 2. THIS is why we end up with stonewallers and limited front foot batsmen who lack a range of shots - it wasn't a conspiracy plotted by evil Misbah-ul-Haq as some believe.

Meanwhile the seamers can simply let the conditions to the work for them, no wonder we've a generation of fast bowlers who are ineffective with the new ball on good batting wickets.

2) If the sun comes out, it'll bake the pitch turning it from green to brown. It becomes a low bounce phatta and the bowlers who looked like Marshall and Ambrose previously suddenly start toiling. This is why you see such perversely lopsided scorelines in QEA Trophy. Take the QEA final. The SAME team that limped to 21-6 in 1st innings then declare at 485-1 in the 2nd innings !

These pitches don't seem to deteriorate much either offering little turn, so instead of spinners being able to hone their craft and learning how to use flight and loop will end up darting the ball in, wicket-to-wicket for sake of control. The pitches are so slow so why bother trying to bowl for a batsmen's outside edge when the ball probably won't even carry ?

3) The low clay content and the dampness of Pakistani pitches means less bounce, so how can batsmen develop a backfoot game ? Its no surprise why our batsmen over the years have been ill-equipped for Australian conditions and the slow pace of the wickets means batsmen don't get value for their shots.

4) PCB curators will say we can't produce sporting wickets as "the weather is to blame." What a load of self-serving BS. So why is it that India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh produce better wickets than Pakistan ? Look at the pitches on our tour to Sri Lanka last year - Galle, P Sara Oval and Pallekele were ideal Asian cricket wickets providing something for everyone. Another example of an ideal surface was the one at The Oval this summer.

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] describes PCB groundsmen as "farmers" - oh bhai, please don't insult farmers who have more pride in their profession than these poorly trained, so-called "curators" ! As with most things, PCB can easily resolve this issue with will and investment. If it takes hiring a foreign curator like Andy Atkinson to oversee the process then so be it.

As [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] says - the ideal is a VARIETY of pitches. Look at Australia in their golden era, South Africa and England where different venues provide different challenges. We need hard bouncy tracks, green seamers AND our traditional slow, low turners. But when the pitches are almost uniformly woeful, you stunt the growth of your cricketers.

PAK domestic wickets are ANYTHING BUT green - a green wicket doesn't produce 480/1 in Day 2/3 of a FC Match. These are dead slow & low wickets, where to "show" some greenery, "they" put cut grass on the wicket & roll it heavy - after 2 hours of Day 1, 21/6 turns into 480/1 by the same team. Tailenders with proper attitude can survive on those "Green" wickets from day 2, for 2 sessions, if he is ready to play at 25 SR.

PCB doesn't need Atkinson - preparing quality wicket is not God gifted skills to few; it's a science, which anyone can learn if there is willingness, passion & above all a sense of urgency that things need to change. Besides, most PAK domestic sides are led by Oldies & batsmen - Butt, MoHa, Fawad Alam, Saeed Anwar Jr., Akbar Badshah, Zoaib, Fawad Khan, Shehzad, Saad Nasim, Shahzaib, Khalid Latif, Shaan Masood, Sami, Nasir Jamshed ............ they won't allow groundsmen to prepare fast & bouncy tracks with seem & carry.

Even I believe, in YouTube these days you can find "how to make sporting wicket" , hence, lack of knowledge is not the issue here.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Younis, Misba, Asad, Azhar all are proper test batsmen. Pakistan doesn't phase out players as well as other teams. No other team would still be playing someone like Younis Khan, Misbah.

 

[khurram39]

Good analysis. Agreed with writer, needs to improve wicket quality and work on technique. If one have good technique can bat on any soil and for bowling we just didn't know how to reverse.

 

[Fantasy]

Reports:In domestic cricket this year there will be different pitches in 12 different centres.It was found that wickets in Karachi and Lahore have 13 and 11 inches of soil respectively (while the norm in international cricket is 6-7 inches) and that has resulted in slowing of the pitches.

This is a much needed change and if it is executed well then this might be one of the best things to have done by PCB.

Also will be interesting to see how pitches behave if they are relaid because it takes good no.of years for pitches to settle down.

 

[saifi]

grass is not the major problem.The major problem is damp and underprepared wicket not true in nature.you want some carry.We also dont want pitches like UAE where edge on stArc bowling doesnt carry Keeper has to stand up on a bowler like BROAD.edged on spinners dont carry to slips.Playing on UAE has killed our adaptability

 

[saifi]

Reports:In domestic cricket this year there will be different pitches in 12 different centres.It was found that wickets in Karachi and Lahore have 13 and 11 inches of soil respectively (while the norm in international cricket is 6-7 inches) and that has resulted in slowing of the pitches.

in UAE it should be 100 then