Had a discussion with someone a while back. Are there any authentic pakistani muslim names. Is imran, javed strictly a Pakistani-Bengali-indian name. Do arabs or Indonesians name their kids imran, javed and so on . Where people named imran, javed, cheama,...... Before arrival of islam in India?
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Are there any real, authentic Pakistani names?
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Giannis
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Yeah these are all Pakistani names now. It's like asking are there authentic American names or authentic Canadian names.
Giannis
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Imran is an Arabic name, Javed is Farsi and is common in the subcontinent plus Afghanistan and anywhere Persian culture had some influence. Cheema is a clan, belong to the Punjabi Jat caste and is not a first name, they existed long before the arrival of Islam.
Giannis
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No, of course not. You're a grown man I presume. It's common sense, if they never had contact with Arabs and Persians why would they give their kids those names? It's like asking were South Asians named Michael and Anthony before the British brought Christiantity
.Gharib Aadmi
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People give their children names from the language of their religious scriptures, and from their cultural language.
So for Pakistani Muslims, the names come from Arabic and Persian.
For Pakistani Hindus the names come from Sanskrit.
So for Pakistani Muslims, the names come from Arabic and Persian.
For Pakistani Hindus the names come from Sanskrit.
Giannis
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I don't know about Imran, it's a surah in the Quran. Non Arab muslims tend to give their kids Arabic names that may not make any sense to native Arabic speakers for example Iqbal is a common name in South Asia and even used among Afghans yet it makes no sense to Arabs. Javed is a farsi name, Arabs rarely give their kids Farsi names because it was the Arabs who conquered Persia in recent history and spread Islam and their culture, so you will meet Iranians named Mahmud and Hassan but never Arabs named Gohar and Farhan.
I think u don’t understand my point. I was having a discussion with a friend from Indonesia. . He was saying many Muslims Indonesia don’t have Arab names. They have Indonesian names. Many people have Indonesian names which can be either muslim or Hindu ( Indonesia). My point or question was. Are there examples of this in Pakistan india?
Persia is next door. So we could be influenced by them even before the arrival of islam.No, of course not. You're a grown man I presume. It's common sense, if they never had contact with Arabs and Persians why would they give their kids those names? It's like asking were South Asians named Michael and Anthony before the British brought Christiantity
Gharib Aadmi
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Javed is a Persian name. The reason Muslims in the subcontinent use Persian names is that it was the language the Muslim elite used for 1,000 years , so the rest of the Muslims adopted it as well.
I guess my first question should have been . Why do some countries like ( Indonesia) have many Muslims named a indigenous name . Sorry I went about asking in the wrong manner. Dead tired today.
Giannis
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Yes we were but they never really ruled South Asia except for modern Pakistan being part of the Achaemenid empire for some time. The reason why there are common or similar sounding Persian and Indian names is because both the Indo-Iranian and Indo-Aryan (Indic) peoples share common Indo-European ancestors from the Caucasus steppe. Sanskrit the root of all Indic languages and Avestan the root of all Iranic languages, are actually sister languages, so you have a lot of similar words in both languages and a big overlap between Zoroastrianism and Hinduism.
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That seems like a generalization, a lot of Indonesians have Arabic names too while some may have names of other origins, you also get a combination of native and Arabic names. Also from what I've heard, native names aren't that common in Indonesia either. A lot of Indonesians keep Indic/Hindu names because they were colonized by Hindus from India so Indic and Hindu names are associated their past and the ruling elite of their region even though Indonesians are racially Austronesians and got little to do with Indo-Aryans but as is the case in non-Arab Muslim countries, some names and culture are just held in high regard if they were the ones that ruled over them.
Giannis
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Indonesia is actually a poor example that is often used by Hindu nationalists to shame South Asian and other non-Arab Muslims for keeping Arabic or 'muslim' names, they don't realize that Hindu names and Hinduism aren't native to Indonesia either, Hindus of South India were successful in expanding their empire and their influence throughout Southeast Asia so they've had a profound impact on Austronesian people and their native cultures.
I have been to Indonesia. Many Muslims i meet were named , named that I had never heard off. Sorry I don’t know what percentage is what. But I would say most people had names I could not pronounce. I did not want to be rude so I did not ask further. But few months ago I meet and Indonesian and I asked him. His reply was we use Indonesian names mostly. Many Hindus or muslims have same names.
Yes in Bali which has a majority Hindu population I heard many names that I could recognize to be Hindu. But even there the Hindus had native names also. Sorry I don’t have a point to make on this thread. This was just in back of my mind for a while and I just wanted someone else’s opinion. I am sure if I do some research I could get a clearer answer. Just too damn tired today. Hard raising kids when wife leaves town. 
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Gharib Aadmi
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Indonesian Muslims use Sanskrit names as well as Arabic names. The names from ther cultural language (Sanskrit) and religious language (Arabic).
Sanskrit is not indigenous to Indonesia. It comes from the subcontinent. They adopted Sanskrit same way subcontinent Muslims adopted Persian.
Yes I know
Itachi
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They didn't have Arabic influence so whatever name was going on, they just adopted the religion without changing much about the nomenclature.
There are people with same name but they can from either of Hindu or Muslim. Christian indos have a bit of different naming pattern in my personal experience.
In India even, in lots of states, you can't figure out the religion just from name. As time has passed, many names are chose by hindu or Muslim. Even with same surname, the religion can be different.
Giannis
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Exactly, they had been under Hindu Indian rule for so long that now Hindu names were just considered "Indonesian" names like how to most Pakistanis an Arabic or Farsi origin name is just considered a Pakistani name as literally everyone in our family tree for at least the past 10 generations or more have had these names.
By the way the name Indonesia itself is a misnomer, Indonesia literally means "Indian islands" however these islands are no where near the Indus river nor do the native Austronesian people speak any Indo-Aryan nor do they carry the R1a1a haplogroup found in Pakistan and India that signifies Indo-European ancestry. Indonesia was just a colonial name that the Dutch named the region as to European colonizers anything east of India was also India or just "Exotic" just like how Vietnam was called "French IndoChina".
If Indonesia is big on its own history then perhaps a native name tied to its history makes more sense, that said I'm not gatekeeping Indo-Aryan heritage, it's up to them.
Gharib Aadmi
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Someone should ask these clowns if Indonesia, Cambodia, Thailand, etc can adopt Sanskrit names, why cant Hindus in North India have Persian names?
Are u saying in India muslims and Hindus have same names also?
Who is saying u can’t
Gharib Aadmi
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They didn't have Arab influence, but they had Indian influence. Which is why they have Sanskrit names.
So the question is if Indonesian Muslims can have Sanskrit names because they were under influence by Indians, why cant Indian Hindus have Persian names, when they were influence from that culture?
Do currently Hindus in India name their kids Persian names? Or is it mostly indian muslims?
Gharib Aadmi
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Nope only Indian Muslims and Parsis.
Giannis
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I've heard of many Sikhs with Persian names but then again Sikhs had a lot of Persian influence on their empire, they had Farsi as their official language, one of their anthems was in Farsi, and the whole concept of being a Sardar comes from Persian culture.
Really. I did not know that. Interesting.
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A lot of Hindu nationalists are opposed to "invader names" that are of Arabic and Persian origin, its seen as "Un-Indian".
Itachi
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Parsi is a very localized community in India that exists only in a few western states. Not sure why you think it will have impact when there are other bigger influences around locally.
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Persian names gained popularity in South Asia (Muslims) not cause of the Parsi migration but because of the roughly 1000 year rule of Persian-speaking Muslims from Central Asia (present-day Afghanistan), Farsi was the official language of the subcontinent from around the 11th century until the late 19th century when the British abolished it. Persian culture and names aren't just native to the nation state of Iran, ancient Iran encompassed a much larger area including Central Asia and parts of the Caucasus so when we say "Persian' influence we aren't actually talking about Iran but Khorasan (modern day Afghanistan). So the farsi language and culture was prominent among the ruling elite of the subcontinent for several centuries and have had a profound impact on our language and names.
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I know the names Kiran and Neha are somewhat common among Pakistani women. Among western Pakistanis (Baloch & Pashtuns) you have native names like Khushal, Afrasiab, Hyrbyar. It would vary by ethnicity.
Ha. I was just reading now also. But I think most of those Baloch and Pashtun are last names.
Giannis
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Nope, those are all first names lol.
Gharib Aadmi
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Im not talking about the Parsi's. Im talking about the fact that North India under the Delhi Sultanate and Mughal Empire had Persian as the official language.
Why did Hindus from North India not adopt Persian names when they were under that influence for over 500 years?
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You continue to ask this silly question. It's just like Hindus won't start giving their Children English names en masses just because India was ruled by the English or due to English being language of the ruling elite. No question of adopting when we have our languages, regional and cultural.
Giannis
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Well Indians give their kids Sanskrit names as they were ruled by Indo-Aryans for thousands of years, in fact I've heard from Dravidian nationalists that Indic origin names are seeping into South India now.
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But Indonesian Muslims give their children Sanskrit names.
Thats what led to my question, as another poster brought up the fact that Hindu Nationalist use Indonesia as an example of Muslims having Sanskrit names to shame subcontinent Muslims for using Persian names.
So why can people in so many countries in South East and East Asia, adopt Sanskrit names, which did not originate in those countries, yet Hindus have a problem with Persian names.
All those countries also have there own languages and culture. Its not like they were culture less before.
Itachi
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Its human tendency to oppose against changes.
In order to overcome this default behavior, the driving force has to be much bigger than the existing loyalty. Though, muslims ruled around 500 years (not the whole modern India though but that again a big topic), in comparison to various hindu civilization that already existed, this time period is miniscule. And when you have a strong presence, then it will require even bigger force.
Presence of muslims, and ruling over can not bring such drastic change in such short period.
Giannis
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Muslim came around the 10th or 11th century not just a mere 500 years ago and even if it were 500 years ago, the Europeans colonized the Americas in that time. Today Everyone in South America has Spanish names, even cholos that are like >80% Native American by blood will have Spanish names and even speak spanish.
CricketCartoons
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This is because indonesians have fond memories of their hindu rules, but hindus in india don't as they were oppressed by muslims.
Colorblind Genius
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Probably a name that has a hard D, as in “Dar” would have traditionally Indo/Pak roots as a hard D doesn’t exist in Arabic.
Matter of fact, I don’t think I have ever heard an Arab or Irani named “Nadeem” or “Khaawar” or “Javed” or “Sajjad”, Masroor, Ijaz, Kashif and many many others.
When I was naming my kids, I had three criteria factors for their first name as people are called by their first name here in the U.S.
It should be a Muslim name, should be short, and it must not have soft or hard sound of a T D and G.
So no matter who pronounces them, it should come out correct. For example, Tahir is a no no. In Urdu, it’s a soft T but the local Americans will pronounce it with a hard T.
Jameel, for example is a good one. Whether you are a native English or Urdu or Farsi or Chinese or Timbuktu language speaker, it will always come out as correct pronunciation of “Jameel”.
May be in some places in Europe or South America, some folks may pronounce it as Yameel because in their alphabets, J makes the sound of a Y but you got the idea.
Matter of fact, I don’t think I have ever heard an Arab or Irani named “Nadeem” or “Khaawar” or “Javed” or “Sajjad”, Masroor, Ijaz, Kashif and many many others.
When I was naming my kids, I had three criteria factors for their first name as people are called by their first name here in the U.S.
It should be a Muslim name, should be short, and it must not have soft or hard sound of a T D and G.
So no matter who pronounces them, it should come out correct. For example, Tahir is a no no. In Urdu, it’s a soft T but the local Americans will pronounce it with a hard T.
Jameel, for example is a good one. Whether you are a native English or Urdu or Farsi or Chinese or Timbuktu language speaker, it will always come out as correct pronunciation of “Jameel”.
May be in some places in Europe or South America, some folks may pronounce it as Yameel because in their alphabets, J makes the sound of a Y but you got the idea.
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Why would Arabs name their kids Imran or Javed? Or Prakash even?
Cpt. Rishwat
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There are plenty of Indian films where main heroes are called Bobby or Pinky. With Bollywood wives not even teaching their kids hindi, you can well imagine them naming their kids Arthur or Kate in the not too distant future.
Giannis
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Just looked up on wiki, apparently Arabs have different spellings for the same name.
There are quite of few Arabs named Imran or more accurately, Omran in this list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imran
CricketCartoons
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That is the anglicized elite which bollywood (itself a copied name) represents. They see themselves as sahibs who know what the idea of india is, and what is good for the natives. They can use the english word for the backside, but will scoff if you use its vernacular, as the names of private parts become kosher and posh if said in english, otherwise it is vulgar.
Itachi
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If you compare colonized american Society and that of Indian society in the same context, it shows your lack of knowledge. Since you lack the basic foundation, I'll request you to read first and come back.
Giannis
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I'm aware that the Muslim conquerors gave the indigenous a lot more freedom and didn't enforce their language, culture or forcefully tried to wipe out the native race unlike the Spaniards did in the Americas.
Itachi
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There's already a thread for it and I request you to continue this subject there. Let's stick to the thread subject. Shall we?
ishtiaq_ctg
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I dont know about Pakistan but there are many authentic bangla name that many Bangladeshi muslims use(names like Liton, Rony, joy are used by both muslims and hindus)
Religious scholars do discourage people not to have bangla names so having bangla names is on the decline in the country among muslims.
Religious scholars do discourage people not to have bangla names so having bangla names is on the decline in the country among muslims.
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Whats an authentic name? How far back to you need to go for a name to be considered authentic? It seems this is the typical Islam bashing from the OP.
Names of an Islamic origin are "authentic" names now, and in most instances these are coupled with surnames that are unique to Pakistan.
I don't think a Mohammed Khattak or Mohammed Gujjar or Mohammed Afridi will be found anywhere outside of Pakistan. Is this authentic enough?
Names of an Islamic origin are "authentic" names now, and in most instances these are coupled with surnames that are unique to Pakistan.
I don't think a Mohammed Khattak or Mohammed Gujjar or Mohammed Afridi will be found anywhere outside of Pakistan. Is this authentic enough?
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my name is authentic, never met another person irl with it, and as per google the few other people who have it are in pakistan or north india.
also to the OP, pakistani vocabulary is a mixture of languages, the names u would deem "authentically pakistani" are pre islamic and as such not used by muslims.
given names like allah ditta which is technically a punjabi name, and with a muslim twist probably as pakistani as u can get, might be what ur looking for, but have fallen out of fashion recently.
also to the OP, pakistani vocabulary is a mixture of languages, the names u would deem "authentically pakistani" are pre islamic and as such not used by muslims.
given names like allah ditta which is technically a punjabi name, and with a muslim twist probably as pakistani as u can get, might be what ur looking for, but have fallen out of fashion recently.
Cpt. Rishwat
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I think authentic for OP would be something like Sreenavan or Prabhu.
I suppose what you'd be looking for is Sanskrit-derived names, but they're more associated with Hinduism. Would Khushdil count as 'authentic', as (I believe, someone correct me if I'm wrong, Urdu isn't my strong suit) it literally means 'happy heart' in Urdu and Hindi? Would Bahadur be another? There may be some Urdu names, but they may have Arabic and Persian influence, so unsure if they'd count as authentic. Farishta is one I've heard too, I know it means angel in Urdu, but may be the case in Farsi too?
I heard that there were quite a few Pakistani-Punjabi names that have been lost. I should do some reading into the ancient Indus, I'm sure it'd be fascinating. Would be cool to consult an Indus historian on this, but I'm sure it'll be a very niche topic.
I heard that there were quite a few Pakistani-Punjabi names that have been lost. I should do some reading into the ancient Indus, I'm sure it'd be fascinating. Would be cool to consult an Indus historian on this, but I'm sure it'll be a very niche topic.
Yes I think those are indigenous names u mentioned
Some names off the top of my head that Pakistani’s I’ve met have had but no Arabs I’ve met have are Imran, Farhan, Sajid, Usman, Rizwan, Wasim, Farah, sure there are lots more ...
Is there a reason as to why some Islamic names stopped being used by Arabs?...
Is there a reason as to why some Islamic names stopped being used by Arabs?...
CricketCartoons
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I think OP is confusing authentic as ancient pakistani, which is still pakistani btw. Just that modern and medieval Pakistani names are in vogue now, and 7 ft tall ancient pakistani king porus can't hold a candle to the mughal prince daniyal.
CricketCartoons
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I think you are reading too much into it. My questions have been answered.
Your question was wrong to begin with. How do you define "real authentic pakistani"?
Giannis
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There are numerous names Pakistanis use that Arabs don't however not the ones you named. Rizwan is spelt Ridwan in Arabic and is not uncommon, Osman is spelt Othman and is also very common, Imran is spelt Omran. I've also heard of Arabs named Waseem or more accurately 'Wisam'. I also know of a Palestinian girl named Farah, I used to think it was a Persian name but apparently it's also common in the Levant.
chacha kashmiri
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Surely no shah's exist outside of Pakistan
Also we have a monopoly on people with the surname Jan and dad
Doesn't seem to be many altafs, khokhars, makhdooms, iqbals, meenas, mirs or bakhts outside pakistan
Also we seem to have imported hayats, tariq and qadris
Also we have a monopoly on people with the surname Jan and dad
Doesn't seem to be many altafs, khokhars, makhdooms, iqbals, meenas, mirs or bakhts outside pakistan
Also we seem to have imported hayats, tariq and qadris
IMMY69
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I've heard so many pakistani's, particular men, calling this to others that I think by now it's practically a Pakistani name. The word is Choot
Bewal Express
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Bhuuta is proper PK name
Ah yep forgot about the d and z switch ...can’t say I’ve ever met an Othman though ...a lot of Pakistani Usmans...
Interesting on Farah...at the very least like Usman seems more popular outside the Arab world ...but I could very well be wrong ...my knowledge on this subject is just anecdotal ....
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Pakistani has no real identity of its own, so you shouldn’t expect to see many authentic Pakistani names.
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It's a super common second name amongst Indian Gujaratis.
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I guess you expand that by saying no non-Arab Muslims have a real identity. Then again you need to define what identity means, to me it seems like Pakistan has very clear and defined identity maybe not from your point of view. It's just different perspectives.
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Well Othman was a prominet Caliph in early Islamic history and them Ottoman empire also known as the Osmania empire ruled over the Arab world. A cursory search of Othman on Linkedin yields many results of Arab people.
Giannis
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That's pronounced Sah and has no relation to the Persian word Shah which means King and is derived from Arabic itself.
Agree with this post. Pakistanis have essentially erased our own native culture in an attempt to appear more Arab or more Western.
Basant is an excellent example. It’s a spring festival. Our ancestors living in the Indus plain have celebrated spring festivals for millennia. The Arabs have no concept of spring or autumn or the grain harvest. So to ape the Arabs we have given up a very rich part of our culture.
As for names, they comes from language. Our national language is Urdu which is a Persianised form of the standard Hindustani language of north India. Therefore our names authentic names should be Persian and Hindustani names. Pashto and Balochi are Iranian languages while Sindhi and Punjabi are North Indian languages - that may well influence local variation of names.
Also most Pakistanis are Muslims and Islam originated in Arabia so Arab names are shouldn’t be unexpected.
Basant is an excellent example. It’s a spring festival. Our ancestors living in the Indus plain have celebrated spring festivals for millennia. The Arabs have no concept of spring or autumn or the grain harvest. So to ape the Arabs we have given up a very rich part of our culture.
As for names, they comes from language. Our national language is Urdu which is a Persianised form of the standard Hindustani language of north India. Therefore our names authentic names should be Persian and Hindustani names. Pashto and Balochi are Iranian languages while Sindhi and Punjabi are North Indian languages - that may well influence local variation of names.
Also most Pakistanis are Muslims and Islam originated in Arabia so Arab names are shouldn’t be unexpected.
Its just a stupid comment without historical or cultural context. I suspect the intention was to agitate rather than enlighten.
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I've known a few Bilals, Sajjads and Tariqs of Pakistani origin. Assume these are popular names for males in Pakistan?
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Yes quite popular names in Pakistan. All 3 are Arabic names.
