Are US/UK Western nations 'The Good Guys' in history?

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My Eastern European landlord spent decade in Libya when Gaddafi was there. Said it was heaven compared to now. Now there is no Libya. Just some land ravaged by terror groups

Even most western people are too embarrassed to talk about Gaddafi now, they might have believed all the evil dictator stuff 20 years ago, but I don't think they envisioned countries like Iraq, Libya and Syria returning to the stone ages following western intervention.

Only the hardcore trolls always evident on Pak sites still sing the tune of freeing the Muslim countries from the oppression of dictators for freedom and liberty's sake.

 

[sweep_shot]

Absolutely wrong

Except for top companies in Gulf, most normal companies pay peanuts to people with Desi passport for IT Positions

https://ae.indeed.com/cmp/Oro24-Developments-LLC/jobs

This is a normal private firm in Dubai, a .NET Software Developer with 5 years experience is being advertised for 6000 Dhs
That is less than 1700 US Dollars monthly

I was referring to people with western passports. For them, gulf salaries are more attractive. Low taxes are attractive.

In America, taxes are very high for IT professionals or any white collar job. Even in Canada, taxes are very high for those who work white collar jobs.

 

[sweep_shot]

Thanks for showing you understand very little about the Gulf

In recent cases
A guy was convicted of distributing child porn and only got a fine, no jail term in the UAE

In another case a man was drink driving and killed another person in an accident. He got 2-3 months in jail

Another man shared a Facebook link to a charity arranging blankets for Afghan kids in winter. He got jail

Another man wrote on some Facebook page on how Qatar is a better place to live in than the UAE, he got arrested and jailed (this was during the 2017 to 2021 blockade of Qatar by MBS/MBZ)

So much for "common sense laws"

Common sense laws as in low crimes. They deport criminals very fast. In west, criminals get pampered.

Also, not sure why you are being so defensive about America. Do you want an American passport or something?

 

[szrana007]

I don’t know if you have read the whole book or just quoting his most famous quote. Samuel showed the non west countries in a very bad light.

The quote is from an American political scientist, which makes it even more relevant. Doesn't matter if he showed the non western countries in a bad light, his quote is 100 % true.

 

[szrana007]

The West are without doubt the 'Good Guys' because they treat their own citizens with dignity and decency unlike in every other civilisation, unlike in every other empire in history.

Many premodren empires and civilizations treated their citizens with dignity and decency as well, the West is not unique in that.

 

[szrana007]

how do posters see the crusades?

Crusades were the Christian equivalent of Islamic Jihad. The holy Christian warriors fought to take Jerusalem and other lands they had lost to Muslims. These holy warriors were promised Paradise by the Pope.

 

[szrana007]

This thread is going in an intersting direction.

Is the success of the West almost exclusively built on violence and imperialism or is there more to it?

The answer to that question is yes, West owes its success largely to violence and imperialism.

 

[sweep_shot]

Many premodren empires and civilizations treated their citizens with dignity and decency as well, the West is not unique in that.

Correct.

Even Nazis were attentive to their own citizens. Looking after own citizen is not everything.

If a nation looks after its citizens but destabilizes other nations, that nation is not a good nation.

Also, it is a myth that America looks after own citizens. Why are there millions of homeless/poor people then? They have money for Ukraine but no money for these homeless people (including homeless veterans).

 

[Robert]

The answer to that question is yes, West owes its success largely to violence and imperialism.

Every empire does. Egypt, Persia, Macedonia, Rome, Conquistadors, Moghuls, Ottomans, British, USSR, USA.

 

[szrana007]

Every empire does. Egypt, Persia, Macedonia, Rome, Conquistadors, Moghuls, Ottomans, British, USSR, USA.

But we can't hear the end of how Western values and Liberalism is what made the West so successful, when the reality is completely different. Other empires didn't claim to be peak of civilization like the West does.

 

[the Great Khan]

[MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION],

There were acts of God. The Irish Famine 1845-8 was precipitated by a blight of the potato crop. The Bengal Famine of 1943/4 was begun by a typhoon and another blight. A number of the other Raj-era famines were started by late monsoons. However, the response by local administrators to these crises should be examined. For example, HM Gov had heard warnings for years about explosive population growth, bad housing and bad nutrition in Ireland but did nothing, trusting to the markets to fix the problem.

Please don’t make stuff up about me. I never said that “the Bengal Famine was Hitler’s fault”. Challenge my ideas by all means, but attack things I have actually said and don’t misrepresent me. It seems to be happening more and more to me here (not just you but several others).

Ordinarily one would say you were right. However there is a big problem with your assessment. Why did the rains failing only cause a famine during British rule? There were nearly 20 famines. You would expect them to have figured things out after the first. Also why has there never been a famine either before the British arrived or more importantly after they left.

You say mismanagement. I counter this claim by saying it was wiful and deliberate. I have presented my evidence. I am prepared to present more if required.

The bottom line and this is hard for patriotic British people to digest, it was done deliberately because the Indian population was see as subhuman hence why rice and grain was sent to London while people were dying.

The history of western wealth is built on it being stole from elsewhere.

I see some here criticising the Arabs. And we should criticise them for their rubbish labour laws and other bits. However the UAE didn't extract wealth from another nation to become rich. Same as Qatar. They extracted it from the ground. No harm to anyone. They didn't create mass famines or mass poverty. They certainly haven't caused the mass death of millions.

 

[the Great Khan]

This thread is going in an intersting direction.

Is the success of the West almost exclusively built on violence and imperialism or is there more to it?

It's built on wealth extraction and the dehumanisation of millions of people. There is no doubt about this. It is simply historical fact. They recorded it all. But now if younask about the British empire they'll call you a traitor or a Putin lover etc. Or say "what about the Arabs " or something like that.

 

[SalimBhai]

My Eastern European landlord spent decade in Libya when Gaddafi was there. Said it was heaven compared to now. Now there is no Libya. Just some land ravaged by terror groups

I would agree Libya is in the worst shape now then before . Also I am not a americsn foreign policy supporter. However even under Qaddafi with all this oil wealth Libya lagged behind other counties with similar wealth. He was a dictator.

 

[SalimBhai]

But we can't hear the end of how Western values and Liberalism is what made the West so successful, when the reality is completely different. Other empires didn't claim to be peak of civilization like the West does.

Yes they did . All empires engaged in propaganda

 

[SalimBhai]

It's built on wealth extraction and the dehumanisation of millions of people. There is no doubt about this. It is simply historical fact. They recorded it all. But now if younask about the British empire they'll call you a traitor or a Putin lover etc. Or say "what about the Arabs " or something like that.

Both things can be true

 

[szrana007]

Yes they did . All empires engaged in propaganda

So you are saying that Western values and liberalism are propaganda ?

 

[SalimBhai]

All empires claimed to be the best thing since sliced bread. Without exception

 

[SalimBhai]

As stated many times by me western values within their own borders are superb. Nothing like it. All this thing about spreading freedom to rest of the world is all **. Just like any other empire . Also on note the Middle East war was started by neo cons in America. Christians, god fearing people. Not liberals. Peas do read up

 

[Robert]

But we can't hear the end of how Western values and Liberalism is what made the West so successful, when the reality is completely different. Other empires didn't claim to be peak of civilization like the West does.

Other empires were the peak of civilisation when they were the dominant empire. Obviously they thought their ideas were the best at the time.

 

[Robert]

Ordinarily one would say you were right. However there is a big problem with your assessment. Why did the rains failing only cause a famine during British rule? There were nearly 20 famines. You would expect them to have figured things out after the first. Also why has there never been a famine either before the British arrived or more importantly after they left.

There was at least one famine under the Moghuls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deccan_famine_of_1630%E2%80%931632


There were no typhoons and blight destroying the harvest post-Raj? India has been at peace (mainly) since 1948 with no threat of Imperial Japanese invasion, so lacking that existential threat have been in better positions to deal with any crop failure such as the late nineties drought years.

You say mismanagement. I counter this claim by saying it was wiful and deliberate. I have presented my evidence. I am prepared to present more if required.

I'd say more uncaring. For example Lord Lieutenant of Ireland Charles Trevelyan (that name again) believed the potato famine to be God's judgment on the Irish. So he didn't intervene against what he thought was God's will. Others like Disraeli and Gladstone tried to do something to alleviate the famine but were prevented by the landowners in Parliament.

The bottom line and this is hard for patriotic British people to digest, it was done deliberately because the Indian population was see as subhuman hence why rice and grain was sent to London while people were dying.

Are we talking about 1943? GB was in existential threat too at the time - at risk of starvation. Of course the white supremacy doctrine was still in strong effect.

The history of western wealth is built on it being stole from elsewhere.

Fair point.

I see some here criticising the Arabs. And we should criticise them for their rubbish labour laws and other bits. However the UAE didn't extract wealth from another nation to become rich. Same as Qatar. They extracted it from the ground. No harm to anyone. They didn't create mass famines or mass poverty. They certainly haven't caused the mass death of millions.

Sure but those are criticisms of some posters who think these are ideal societies to their people, not regarding any conquest or lack of.

Though the Saudis and Iranians are fighting their proxy war, and an Arab coalition led by Saudi Arabia is causing great harm in Yemen now.

 

[SalimBhai]

There was at least one famine under the Moghuls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deccan_famine_of_1630%E2%80%931632


There were no typhoons and blight destroying the harvest post-Raj? India has been at peace (mainly) since 1948 with no threat of Imperial Japanese invasion, so lacking that existential threat have been in better positions to deal with any crop failure such as the late nineties drought years.

Also you



Id say more uncaring. For example Lord Lieutenant of Ireland Charles Trevelyan (that name again) believed the potato famine to be God's judgment on the Irish. So he didn't intervene against what he thought was God's will. Others like Disraeli and Gladstone tried to do something to alleviate the famine but were prevented by the landowners in Parliament.




Are we talking about 1943? GB was in existential threat too at the time - at risk of starvation. Of course the white supremacy doctrine was still in strong effect.


Fair point.



Sure but those are criticisms of some posters who think these are ideal societies to their people, not regarding any conquest or lack of.

Though the Saudis and Iranians are fighting their proxy war, and an Arab coalition led by Saudi Arabia is causing great harm in Yemen now.

Also you have to look at arab emires during the Islamic expansion or the ottomans or Japanese and so on. Everyone has blood on their hands every single of them exploited the ones they conquered.

 

[szrana007]

Islamic imperialism can't be compared with European colonialism. When Muslims conquered lands, they made them better like the Arab conquest of Spain ( Al Andalus). Spain thrived under Muslim rule. Also when Ottomans conquered Constantinople, they made it their capital and the greatest city in the empire.

European colonilaism on the other hand devastated cultures and reduced the natives to poverty by looting their wealth, even committed genocides like of Native Americans in Americas and of Aborginals in Australia. There is no comparison whatsoever with the Islamic expansion.

 

[sweep_shot]

Islamic imperialism can't be compared with European colonialism. When Muslims conquered lands, they made them better like the Arab conquest of Spain ( Al Andalus). Spain thrived under Muslim rule. Also when Ottomans conquered Constantinople, they made it their capital and the greatest city in the empire.

European colonilaism on the other hand devastated cultures and reduced the natives to poverty by looting their wealth, even committed genocides like of Native Americans in Americas and of Aborginals in Australia. There is no comparison whatsoever with the Islamic expansion.

This is true. This is something many radical liberals and Islamophobes do not understand.

Oppression and Islam do not go hand in hand. If any Muslim leader oppressed, that was the fault of that specific leader; not the fault of Islam.

European colonists have looted trillions of Dollars worth of resources from various parts of the world. I am not sure if any kingdom in human history has looted that much. It is quite mindboggling. That looting hasn't stopped to this day (Yankees are still interested to loot from Middle East).

 

[the Great Khan]

There was at least one famine under the Moghuls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deccan_famine_of_1630%E2%80%931632


There were no typhoons and blight destroying the harvest post-Raj? India has been at peace (mainly) since 1948 with no threat of Imperial Japanese invasion, so lacking that existential threat have been in better positions to deal with any crop failure such as the late nineties drought years.





I'd say more uncaring. For example Lord Lieutenant of Ireland Charles Trevelyan (that name again) believed the potato famine to be God's judgment on the Irish. So he didn't intervene against what he thought was God's will. Others like Disraeli and Gladstone tried to do something to alleviate the famine but were prevented by the landowners in Parliament.




Are we talking about 1943? GB was in existential threat too at the time - at risk of starvation. Of course the white supremacy doctrine was still in strong effect.


Fair point.



Sure but those are criticisms of some posters who think these are ideal societies to their people, not regarding any conquest or lack of.

Though the Saudis and Iranians are fighting their proxy war, and an Arab coalition led by Saudi Arabia is causing great harm in Yemen now.

You're literally talking about one specific famine. I presented you with evidence of over 20 pre war famines..all at the height of the empire.

 

[SalimBhai]

Timor the leader killed 5 percent of the worlds population .

 

[Robert]

You're literally talking about one specific famine. I presented you with evidence of over 20 pre war famines..all at the height of the empire.

Actually I mentioned two famines. Three counting the Mughal one.

 

[saeedhk]

To give some examples of how clueless some people are

A worker in a fast food place in Dubai or Abu Dhabi gets around 1500 Dirhams monthly, or 2000 Dhs for 10 hours work 6 days a week

That comes out to 500 US Dollars monthly. Housing is dorm style with 4 or 6 or 8 people in a small room

A worker in McD in the US gets anything 12 to 18 USD per hour. Most live in rooms/apartments of their own and can afford cars

The arguments given in this thread and the intellectual dishonesty shown is appalling! And, they most of such arguments are coming from those who are settled in the West! They are all feel-good arguments whose aim is to given some kind of relief to the feeling of guiltiness for abandoning their respective countries.

 

[SalimBhai]

It’s people who are suffering from identity crisis or don’t fit in their host culture. Nothing to do with reality. I think deep down they know that , hence still living in the west

 

[saeedhk]

Firstly as usual some of you get a bee in your bonnet of we dare criticise the west. Its not surprising since you've been conditioned to bow down to your Colonial masters.

What we are trying to ascertain in this thread if you care to bother to follow is the perception that the west especially the Europeans and the US are the good guys or not. They portray themselves as the defenders of human rights. They say they are democratic and its because of these values that they are so successful.

However if you read history which by the way they actually no longer teach properly on schools, the real story is alot different.

If you want to discuss why we in the west are so ungrateful please open up another thread and we can discuss it there. This thread is to discuss if the hypotheisis the OP has put forward is correct or not.

Please stick to the topic and try not to derail it with kahanis of your khala phupos and mamay.

Western nations are good towards their public. Just look at the rights, lifestyle and living standards that are enjoyed by people in the West. The importance they attach to justice, meritocracy, and human life is unmatched and found nowhere else on the planet. The rights given to people of colour, and minorities are brilliant. Now, compare the above to the East.

If I had a choice, I would live in the West and not in a Muslim country. There is a reason why Muslim refugees head to Germany instead of Saudi Arabia, Oman, or Kuwait.

 

[the Great Khan]

Actually I mentioned two famines. Three counting the Mughal one.

That's one famine. In the 1000 years ore brit rule famines were not common..hell I would expect at least a few in moghul India but over 20 in a short few decades and 35 million dead shows a callous disregard for the lives of the native population. Why are you so hesitant to address this issue..it was a tory govt. You know they are callous racists.

 

[the Great Khan]

Western nations are good towards their public. Just look at the rights, lifestyle and living standards that are enjoyed by people in the West. The importance they attach to justice, meritocracy, and human life is unmatched and found nowhere else on the planet. The rights given to people of colour, and minorities are brilliant. Now, compare the above to the East.

If I had a choice, I would live in the West and not in a Muslim country. There is a reason why Muslim refugees head to Germany instead of Saudi Arabia, Oman, or Kuwait.

Please open another thread to discuss this issue. It is irrelevant to the conversation and detracts from the debate.

 

[Robert]

That's one famine. In the 1000 years ore brit rule famines were not common..hell I would expect at least a few in moghul India but over 20 in a short few decades and 35 million dead shows a callous disregard for the lives of the native population. Why are you so hesitant to address this issue..it was a tory govt. You know they are callous racists.

So we are now back to just one famine in 1943/4? Actually it was a Government of National Unity where the Labourite Attlee was Deputy PM. Though yes, Churchill was a racist.

I don't hesitate to address the issue, I just think general idiocy of the Raj administrators over generations is a better explanation than outright evil.

If you want outright evil, consider that the British Army of Mesopotamia nicked the Persian harvest of 1917, and starved five million to death. Half the population of what is now Iran. See, I am willing to look the Empire's wrongdoing in the eye.

 

[the Great Khan]

So we are now back to just one famine in 1943/4? Actually it was a Government of National Unity where the Labourite Attlee was Deputy PM. Though yes, Churchill was a racist.

I don't hesitate to address the issue, I just think general idiocy of the Raj administrators over generations is a better explanation than outright evil.

If you want outright evil, consider that the British Army of Mesopotamia nicked the Persian harvest of 1917, and starved five million to death. Half the population of what is now Iran. See, I am willing to look the Empire's wrongdoing in the eye.

No I'm still talking about the 20 odd. They did the same in India as they did in Persia.

 

[Robert]

No I'm still talking about the 20 odd. They did the same in India as they did in Persia.

You mentioned the Tories so I thought you meant 1943/44.

The Victorian era was a duopoly between Tories and Liberals. Both had a strong belief in laissez-faire to fix all ills. It doesn’t - you need government intervention sometimes - and the Indians and Irish suffered because of this article of faith.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Madeleine Albright - The deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children was worth it for Iraq's non existent WMD's

Has a leader in history ever defended the deaths of so many kids? Or only the west good ol guys?

 

[szrana007]

Madeleine Albright - The deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children was worth it for Iraq's non existent WMD's

Has a leader in history ever defended the deaths of so many kids? Or only the west good ol guys?

Dissapointing coming from her, but not surprising.

 

[the Great Khan]

You mentioned the Tories so I thought you meant 1943/44.

The Victorian era was a duopoly between Tories and Liberals. Both had a strong belief in laissez-faire to fix all ills. It doesn’t - you need government intervention sometimes - and the Indians and Irish suffered because of this article of faith.

Therefore proving my argument. Tge British govt willfullly ignored the deaths of millions because of ideology racism abd greed. They even stopped the few charitables that wanted to help by threatening them with punishment.

And then the numbers don't lie. The total destruction of the textile industry that employed 100's..

These are undeniable facts and are fully documented.

Forget all this right vs left stuff...the empire was evil. Truly evil. And my assertion is backed up by facts.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Dissapointing coming from her, but not surprising.

Even the war criminal and liar Bliar still to this day says he doesnt regret the invasion. Instead of being behind bars , he was made a Sir . Good ol west are the good guys even if a million people have been killed in one country because of their policies and bombs.

 

[JaDed]

Libya was a dump. Gaddafi was a psychopath . I dont . The general population lived in total fear of the regime.

My Eastern European landlord spent decade in Libya when Gaddafi was there. Said it was heaven compared to now. Now there is no Libya. Just some land ravaged by terror groups

I was born there it was pretty good when wealth atleast somewhat was distributed till 2000(my family left in 1990s), he went crazy later but that’s expected by majority of dictators that are egoistic, Lee Yuan Kew is the only exception and he wasn’t a complete dictator.

The biggest criticism of his reign
1. Creating absolutely no scientific progress during his reign inspite of wealth, meaning no major education institutions, even Libyans used to study in Indian and Pakistani schools.
2. Contributing nothing great infrastructure wise to the country like middle east atleast did.
3. Absolute laughable workhours, hardly 6.. and very easy life for everyone and it remained that way, till date they really aren’t efficient people as such.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Western nations are good towards their public. Just look at the rights, lifestyle and living standards that are enjoyed by people in the West. The importance they attach to justice, meritocracy, and human life is unmatched and found nowhere else on the planet. The rights given to people of colour, and minorities are brilliant. Now, compare the above to the East.

If I had a choice, I would live in the West and not in a Muslim country. There is a reason why Muslim refugees head to Germany instead of Saudi Arabia, Oman, or Kuwait.

Plenty of nations are good to their own. This is not the point of the thread and Im suprised you havent attacked Pakistan again.

It makes no difference to an Iraqi, Syrian, Libyan, Palestinian, or others if Joe Smith is getting a good pension in the UK, which soon he wont.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I was born there it was pretty good when wealth atleast somewhat was distributed till 2000(my family left in 1990s), he went crazy later but that’s expected by majority of dictators that are egoistic, Lee Yuan Kew is the only exception and he wasn’t a complete dictator.

The biggest criticism of his reign
1. Creating absolutely no scientific progress during his reign inspite of wealth, meaning no major education institutions, even Libyans used to study in Indian and Pakistani schools.
2. Contributing nothing great infrastructure wise to the country like middle east atleast did.
3. Absolute laughable workhours, hardly 6.. and very easy life for everyone and it remained that way, till date they really aren’t efficient people as such.

It cannot even be a debate.

1. No matter what a leader of a nation is like, the West has no right to attempt regime change. The west are not the worlds policemen and bombing a nation into democracy is evil.

2. Libya today due to the wests bombings and interventions is in ruins with slaves openly being sold in markets.

 

[sweep_shot]

It cannot even be a debate.

1. No matter what a leader of a nation is like, the West has no right to attempt regime change. The west are not the worlds policemen and bombing a nation into democracy is evil.

2. Libya today due to the wests bombings and interventions is in ruins with slaves openly being sold in markets.

America interferes in matters of other countries. But, if Russia does anything with their election, they go nuts.

They basically want to dish out but can't take it.

 

[JaDed]

It cannot even be a debate.

1. No matter what a leader of a nation is like, the West has no right to attempt regime change. The west are not the worlds policemen and bombing a nation into democracy is evil.

2. Libya today due to the wests bombings and interventions is in ruins with slaves openly being sold in markets.

I blame your country and France for this one specifically, they were directly involved in providing arms to Northern Libyans.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I blame your country and France for this one specifically, they were directly involved in providing arms to Northern Libyans.

USA too, remember the caped hero black President who now says it was his worst mistake as President. Im sure the Libyans killed and those living in a ruined nation are thankful to him.

 

[JaDed]

USA too, remember the caped hero black President who now says it was his worst mistake as President. Im sure the Libyans killed and those living in a ruined nation are thankful to him.

USA is involved, but USA in Afghanistan/Iraq was more of a complete involvement.

In Libya specifically it was ENGLAND France Canada..they massively managed the whole thing.

But yes USA was involved too but considering the defense budget capabilities, the England France Canada involvement was extremely direct, check Canada’s involvement in this war it was absolutely atrocious, Canada had absolutely nothing to do with Libya.

Anyhow let me not derail, the only reason I react to this one was because it’s personal.

 

[JaDed]

On the thread no one is a good guy but the only one that actually gets away with the good “image” is Canada.

Canada gets away being involved in wars that are totally not on their radar and still has a clean image.

 

[KingKhanWC]

USA is involved, but USA in Afghanistan/Iraq was more of a complete involvement.

In Libya specifically it was ENGLAND France Canada..they massively managed the whole thing.

But yes USA was involved too but considering the defense budget capabilities, the England France Canada involvement was extremely direct, check Canada’s involvement in this war it was absolutely atrocious, Canada had absolutely nothing to do with Libya.

Anyhow let me not derail, the only reason I react to this one was because it’s personal.

Im glad you mentioned you were born there. Imo they are all in one boat but sometimes take it in turns to bomb and ruin.

Do you know any people still living in Libya? How are they doing atm?

 

[sweep_shot]

On the thread no one is a good guy but the only one that actually gets away with the good “image” is Canada.

Canada gets away being involved in wars that are totally not on their radar and still has a clean image.

Yeah. I agree with this one.

I think it is because Canada follows the lead of Yankees. So, people tend to blame Yankees directly (head of the snake).

 

[JaDed]

Im glad you mentioned you were born there. Imo they are all in one boat but sometimes take it in turns to bomb and ruin.

Do you know any people still living in Libya? How are they doing atm?

Unable to get visa to go back and see(understandably), I do have couple of Libyan friends here(US) and they studied in Pakistani schools in Libya, they still like home but yea overall it’s obviously not even close to what it was.

All the people I knew which were mostly desis left by 2003.. most people say that’s when it started going down and security showing cracks too.

There are fb groups still where they share photos and everyone has a good memory of the old times.

 

[Technics 1210]

USA too, remember the caped hero black President who now says it was his worst mistake as President. Im sure the Libyans killed and those living in a ruined nation are thankful to him.

It is no mistake that these so called Western leaders admit to making mistakes after their leadership stint has ended.

 

[Technics 1210]

Even the war criminal and liar Bliar still to this day says he doesnt regret the invasion. Instead of being behind bars , he was made a Sir . Good ol west are the good guys even if a million people have been killed in one country because of their policies and bombs.

But but but Blair was lied to by secret services and George Bush (when they went on that infamous stroll in the park!) This is the excuse from Liberals, yet these same Liberals have faith and trust in Western secret services!

Even the Chillcot report after a decade - which despite being heavily redacted - placed blame on Blair.

 

[SalimBhai]

Timor liked 5 percent of the world population. Do the usual right wingers on here he must be a hero.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Unable to get visa to go back and see(understandably), I do have couple of Libyan friends here(US) and they studied in Pakistani schools in Libya, they still like home but yea overall it’s obviously not even close to what it was.

All the people I knew which were mostly desis left by 2003.. most people say that’s when it started going down and security showing cracks too.

There are fb groups still where they share photos and everyone has a good memory of the old times.

Thanks, its so sad to read. The most prosperous African nation now its total ruins because of the west.

It is no mistake that these so called Western leaders admit to making mistakes after their leadership stint has ended.

O'Drama's mask fell off so he is pretending he its a mistake to fool more idiotic liberals to continue voting for his party. Remember this is the man who killed more than Bush with drones, only to later make a joke about predator drones. Sick evil man just a better speaker than other war criminal leaders.

 

[Technics 1210]

Thanks, its so sad to read. The most prosperous African nation now its total ruins because of the west.



O'Drama's mask fell off so he is pretending he its a mistake to fool more idiotic liberals to continue voting for his party. Remember this is the man who killed more than Bush with drones, only to later make a joke about predator drones. Sick evil man just a better speaker than other war criminal leaders.

The pattern of liberal Western criminal leaders is clear as daylight.

Approve war, then claim it was a mistake, but never will they seek peace or prevent war while in office.

I do wonder why, but then again I do not considering the money trail.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The pattern of liberal Western criminal leaders is clear as daylight.

Approve war, then claim it was a mistake, but never will they seek peace or prevent war while in office.

I do wonder why, but then again I do not considering the money trail.

Its also interesting how the history of the western crimes is not talked of much in schools or on tv/radio. However they use certain images or crimes to further their agendas, esp in demonising others. Beheading is wrong unless its the law.

The French in Algeria and other places had a love affair with this method.

France's love affair with decapitating people was not only evident in colonial Algeria but also in its other colonies. Anti-colonial resistance erupted in New Caledonia in 1878, which the French had colonised in 1854 and began to fill with colonial settlers (especially the surviving and exiled communards). The government in Paris imprisoned the native Kanak population in reservations and gave their lands to the settlers. The anti-colonial native Kanak revolt ensued, led by the native Great Chief Ataï. The French colonial administration, the settlers and a few native collaborators, crushed the revolt and beheaded Chief Ataï and two of his sons. The decapitated heads were preserved in formaldehyde by the French anthropological society and later put on display in the Museum of Natural History. The French described the Kanak resistance to the theft of their lands as a "savage uprising against civilisation." In 2014, after 135 years, the French government finally returned Ataï's head to New Caledonia.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20201027-frances-love-affair-with-decapitation/

 

[Technics 1210]

Its also interesting how the history of the western crimes is not talked of much in schools or on tv/radio. However they use certain images or crimes to further their agendas, esp in demonising others. Beheading is wrong unless its the law.

The French in Algeria and other places had a love affair with this method.



https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20201027-frances-love-affair-with-decapitation/

History-washing coupled with propaganda is a Western speciality. It is in reality the equivalent of modern day Nazi propaganda and systematic brainwashing.

I remember 'learning' about WW1 & 2 at school, and the bulk of the lessons were on 6 Million, but never was the Balfour declaration mentioned, or even how a ship of Jewish refugees was refused entry in Amreeka in 1939 under FDR government, yet FDR is revered among Liberals today!

Thanks to the internet, the Western propaganda machine is no longer effective which is why Western governments have always wanted to control the internet! Case in point, now that the Western propaganda is ineffective, their next stunt is to block websites and users post Ukraine war!

 

[KingKhanWC]

History-washing coupled with propaganda is a Western speciality. It is in reality the equivalent of modern day Nazi propaganda and systematic brainwashing.

I remember 'learning' about WW1 & 2 at school, and the bulk of the lessons were on 6 Million, but never was the Balfour declaration mentioned, or even how a ship of Jewish refugees was refused entry in Amreeka in 1939 under FDR government, yet FDR is revered among Liberals today!

Thanks to the internet, the Western propaganda machine is no longer effective which is why Western governments have always wanted to control the internet! Case in point, now that the Western propaganda is ineffective, their next stunt is to block websites and users post Ukraine war!

Falsifying or distorting history itself is a crime. I used to enjoy history as I thought I was learning something new every lesson. But looking back im disgusted how the school curriculum distorts the truth. Yes it was daily WW2, Churchill the hero, Brits did this but nothing regarding the true history.

Captain this or other DISCOVERED Australia lol. But never told a WHOLE race was wiped out from existance.

 

[SalimBhai]

Anyone moving to the gulf yet or too busy getting your relatives over to the west?

 

[LongHorn]

Despite its stated opposition to NATO intervention, Russia abstained from voting on Resolution 1973 instead of exercising its veto power as a permanent member of the Security Council; four other powerful nations also abstained from the vote—India, China, Germany, and Brazil—but of that group only China has the same veto power.[272]


Just read a bit about the Libyan war and apparently Russia and China , who are worshipped by so many anti West people here both abstained from a resolution favoring the war instead of voting against ....

So its not just a case of "evil West = bad", "Russia = hero standing up to the evil West" as painted by many here

 

[sweep_shot]

Despite its stated opposition to NATO intervention, Russia abstained from voting on Resolution 1973 instead of exercising its veto power as a permanent member of the Security Council; four other powerful nations also abstained from the vote—India, China, Germany, and Brazil—but of that group only China has the same veto power.[272]


Just read a bit about the Libyan war and apparently Russia and China , who are worshipped by so many anti West people here both abstained from a resolution favoring the war instead of voting against ....

So its not just a case of "evil West = bad", "Russia = hero standing up to the evil West" as painted by many here

I have never seen you condemn western atrocities (even though you have condemned gulf states, China, and Russia).

Until you stop your double standard and condemn western atrocities, you are just a cheerleader for West. Nothing more.

 

[Robert]

It cannot even be a debate.

1. No matter what a leader of a nation is like, Putin has no right to attempt regime change. Putin is not the worlds policemen and bombing a nation into authoritarianism is evil.

2. Ukraine today due to the Putin’s bombings and interventions is in ruins

Changed a few words there for you, just to illustrate your double standard.

 

[topspin]

There is evil and less evil. But as expected from the number 1 conspiracy theorist on PP, he thinks everything is black and white. [MENTION=44899]wasim-fan[/MENTION] put it perfectly when he said "There are no good guys. Only interests."

The way I see it, it doesn't matter who the most powerful state in the world is, history tells us the powerful always oppress the weaker states. This is what every empire has done, whether it be the British, Ottoman empire and etc.

I'm relieved however that the ruling power of the world isn't China because they're far more cruel and inhumane than the "evil west". This is evident by their treatment of over a million Uighuyr Muslims who've been held in concentration camps. There are no prizes for guessing who is massive supporter of this regime which tells you all you need to know about their credibility and the fact that they're not well travelled.

The haters of the West are fortunate to be able to enjoy their freedom of expression in the Western nations they live in. They speak so highly of China and Russia but they wouldn't last a week there so they'd be running back to the West like Shamima Begum.

 

[Firebat]

All nations/empires have exactly the same goals and do the exact same things whenever they reach power. Some are just better at acquiring that power than others, and some have to mask it more than others due to societal values.

 

[LongHorn]

I have never seen you condemn western atrocities (even though you have condemned gulf states, China, and Russia).

I dont need to condemn the west in every post. I dont criticize Russia except in response to cheerleading of them to attack Ukraine

As for UK/US, I believe Blair is the biggest criminal of Europe in the last 50 years for pushing for the Iraq war
In an ideal world he would have been sentenced and executed by now just like how Nazis were in 1946

However below is where I differ in knowledge/belief from people like you.

Blair is a criminal and half of Britain says that. But are you aware of how certain "Muslim" leaders are equally complicit with him?

By whom he is paid millions to advise them on breaking up the Muslim world?

Yes, MBZ of the UAE

Blair is very close to MBZ, gets paid by him, and is the brain behind a number of issues in the Muslim world
For one the Qatar boycott was Blair's brainchild and sold to MBZ who in turn sold the idea to MBS of Saudi Arabia

(Blair actually wanted a boycott followed by a military attack and removing Tamim and sending him to exile in Turkey. But it didnt work out due to, very crucially, the US military top guys in the Gulf bases in Bahrain and Qatar reaching out to Trump and warn him that such a military campaign would send the Gulf up in fire. )

And similarly Blair also advised MBZ on how to aid Haftar who ran a military fight against libyas government in 2017/8/9

I dont see the world in simple black and white. I know the US/UK are evil in their FP, but in recent decades in most of their attacks on the Muslims, they have been aided, or even surpassed (Yemen war) by traitors in the Muslim World.
More often than not the traitor has been UAE/Egypt and Saudi Arabia to a lesser extent, and also Erdogan (Libya war)

 

[SalimBhai]

I dont need to condemn the west in every post. I dont criticize Russia except in response to cheerleading of them to attack Ukraine

As for UK/US, I believe Blair is the biggest criminal of Europe in the last 50 years for pushing for the Iraq war
In an ideal world he would have been sentenced and executed by now just like how Nazis were in 1946

However below is where I differ in knowledge/belief from people like you.

Blair is a criminal and half of Britain says that. But are you aware of how certain "Muslim" leaders are equally complicit with him?

By whom he is paid millions to advise them on breaking up the Muslim world?

Yes, MBZ of the UAE

Blair is very close to MBZ, gets paid by him, and is the brain behind a number of issues in the Muslim world
For one the Qatar boycott was Blair's brainchild and sold to MBZ who in turn sold the idea to MBS of Saudi Arabia

(Blair actually wanted a boycott followed by a military attack and removing Tamim and sending him to exile in Turkey. But it didnt work out due to, very crucially, the US military top guys in the Gulf bases in Bahrain and Qatar reaching out to Trump and warn him that such a military campaign would send the Gulf up in fire. )

And similarly Blair also advised MBZ on how to aid Haftar who ran a military fight against libyas government in 2017/8/9

I dont see the world in simple black and white. I know the US/UK are evil in their FP, but in recent decades in most of their attacks on the Muslims, they have been aided, or even surpassed (Yemen war) by traitors in the Muslim World.
More often than not the traitor has been UAE/Egypt and Saudi Arabia to a lesser extent, and also Erdogan (Libya war)

Erdogan also in Syria. Very good post

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Anyone moving to the gulf yet or too busy getting your relatives over to the west?

If we made the whole world like the west then everyone would stay put. I think that should be the noble aim of modern day world leaders. Build don't bomb.

 

[Robert]

I know the US/UK are evil in their FP, but in recent decades in most of their attacks on the Muslims, they have been aided, or even surpassed (Yemen war) by traitors in the Muslim World.
More often than not the traitor has been UAE/Egypt and Saudi Arabia to a lesser extent, and also Erdogan (Libya war)

Traitors to what, specifically - the ummah?

I would say that the self-interest of majority-Muslim nation states transcends this concept.

The Yemen War has killed 377K people already according to the UN and will pass a million if it is sustained for a few years:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/23/un-yemen-recovery-possible-in-one-generation-if-war-stops-now

 

[Technics 1210]

The Yemen war proves the West are the bad guys.

Russia is with war with Ukraine, and the West have imposed sanctions on Russia.

So why, does the UN and Amreeka not impose sanctions on Saudi Arabia, come on West, you are the so called world police, where are the actions against the Saudis? Oh that's right, the Petrodollar is more important than the lives of innocent Yemenis.

The West arms Ukraine, and sanctions Russia, the same West arms the Saudis but sanctions Yemen.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/financial-sanctions-yemen

You literally could not make this up.

The West is complicit in almost every war on the globe right now and do not let the Western liberals tell you any different.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Despite its stated opposition to NATO intervention, Russia abstained from voting on Resolution 1973 instead of exercising its veto power as a permanent member of the Security Council; four other powerful nations also abstained from the vote—India, China, Germany, and Brazil—but of that group only China has the same veto power.[272]


Just read a bit about the Libyan war and apparently Russia and China , who are worshipped by so many anti West people here both abstained from a resolution favoring the war instead of voting against ....

So its not just a case of "evil West = bad", "Russia = hero standing up to the evil West" as painted by many here

Putin opposed attack Libya , he’s spoken in detail but you forget to mention this .

Poor deflection attempt, the destruction of Libya was evil , stop watching Disney channel

 

[happydavy]

Biggest gift of west to the world is democracy and for that they deserve credit. Theres hardly any absolute good country when u consider the world of last 200 years. However, since the last 70 years, west had played a major role in modernizing the world overall.

 

[Robert]

Putin opposed attack Libya , he’s spoken in detail but you forget to mention this .

Poor deflection attempt, the destruction of Libya was evil , stop watching Disney channel

No good "opposing" with talk - he could have stopped UNSCR1973 at the UNSC with his veto power, and didn't.

 

[KingKhanWC]

No good "opposing" with talk - he could have stopped UNSCR1973 at the UNSC with his veto power, and didn't.

Didnt work in Iraq, the west will shed blood if they get the taste. Good point Robert, they claim to be the good guys, the lovers of freedom and democracy but continue to oppress nations with sanctions and wars with or without the worlds consent.

 

[MenInG]

People desperate to go to the West.

==

Hundreds of Afghan refugees facing extreme delays in the approval of US visas protested in Pakistan’s capital on Sunday.

The US government’s Priority 1 and Priority 2, known as P1 and P2, refugee programmes were meant to fast track visas for at-risk Afghans including journalists and rights activists after the Taliban takeover in their homeland.

Those eligible must have worked for the US government, a US-based media organisation or non-governmental organisation in Afghanistan.

Applicants have been waiting in Pakistan for more than 18 months for US officials to process their visa applications.

The delay in approving visas and resettlement has left Afghan applicants in a highly vulnerable position as they contend with economic hardship and lack of access to health, education and other services in Pakistan.

Mohammad Baqir Ahmadi, who said he had helped to organise the protest outside of Pakistan’s National Press Club in Islamabad, said many of the Afghans present were facing problems in extending visas to wait out the application process in Pakistan.

 

[KingKhanWC]

People desperate to go to the West.

==

Hundreds of Afghan refugees facing extreme delays in the approval of US visas protested in Pakistan’s capital on Sunday.

The US government’s Priority 1 and Priority 2, known as P1 and P2, refugee programmes were meant to fast track visas for at-risk Afghans including journalists and rights activists after the Taliban takeover in their homeland.

Those eligible must have worked for the US government, a US-based media organisation or non-governmental organisation in Afghanistan.

Applicants have been waiting in Pakistan for more than 18 months for US officials to process their visa applications.

The delay in approving visas and resettlement has left Afghan applicants in a highly vulnerable position as they contend with economic hardship and lack of access to health, education and other services in Pakistan.

Mohammad Baqir Ahmadi, who said he had helped to organise the protest outside of Pakistan’s National Press Club in Islamabad, said many of the Afghans present were facing problems in extending visas to wait out the application process in Pakistan.

What is your point here? People want to go where they can make most money to feed their family. They would go to North Korea if they could earn more. Many in the west are moving to Dubai, its not because of their free gay laws is it.

The point is western governments and western elites have proven to be an evil force in the world.

4 Million died/killed due to the policies of the war of terror, yet(not you) Muslims sit there silent like subservients? Those really need to learn their faith.

 

[SalimBhai]

A handful of western people are going to the gulf. People are going to the west is because the quality of life is better, respect for a human life is better, education is Berger, respect for women is Better. It’s a a better life. That’s why the posters here who complain all day are still sitting here in the west and have not moved to the gulf yet. Which they can very easily because of a western passport and western education( if they have one ) .

 

[MenInG]

A handful of western people are going to the gulf. People are going to the west is because the quality of life is better, respect for a human life is better, education is Berger, respect for women is Better. It’s a a better life. That’s why the posters here who complain all day are still sitting here in the west and have not moved to the gulf yet. Which they can very easily because of a western passport and western education( if they have one ) .

You seem to have some sort of chip on yer .. about people wanting to come to the Gulf etc

Get over it.

ALLAH swt earth is waseeh (huge) - people go where they feel safe and where they feel they can practice their religion openly.

You haven't, that's your problem but stop repeating yourself in every other thread.

 

[SalimBhai]

You seem to have some sort of chip on yer .. about people wanting to come to the Gulf etc

Get over it.

ALLAH swt earth is waseeh (huge) - people go where they feel safe and where they feel they can practice their religion openly.

You haven't, that's your problem but stop repeating yourself in every other thread.

Yes but I am stating the facts. I will leave god out of this

 

[KingKhanWC]

Maybe an image will be more helpful to some.

How people brush off what the US and its vassals have done in history is beyond my understanding.

 

[SalimBhai]

Maybe an image will be more helpful to some.

How people brush off what the US and its vassals have done in history is beyond my understanding.

View attachment 118867

I don’t think anyone is denying usa crimes. Pics like these can be put in this board from all empires. Usa is not alone or unique in this. All empires have blood on their hands.

 

[KB]

Some posters have already suggested that it is not useful to reduce history to good versus evil. I would go further and say it is puerile to do so.

History often comes up on these pages but I think too few pause to think what the purpose of a serious study of history is.