Are Yashasvi Jaiswal and Rishabh Pant the next hype machines for India?

[hassan918]

And then you will see Pakistanis glory fying abdul qadir

Abdul Qadir was surely good enough to be recognized like this (236 test wickets in 67 matches) but this thread is about Jaiswal and Pant so please stick to that.

 

[hassan918]

India has produced no test great spinners?

I think @bunda_bindaas made a good reply to this. Better to keep the discussion on Jaiswal and Pant in this thread.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Indians 100% fall into this trap. Its just that quality wise their > others even with a loss in form.

India throughout its test history has only produced 3 ATG test batters (Sachin, Dravid and Sunny possibly Sehwag as well tbf), One ATG test pace bowler (Bumrah) and thats it. Zero atg test spinners.

Similarly in odi theyve produced a few more gems like but the number is still 5 to 10 Max.

Everyone else gets put into this weird bracket and the term ATG gets thrown like pancakes, or some weird terminology like Indian great, crises man and what not.

Kohli, Dhoni, Laxman, Rohit, Ravi Shastri, Sanjay Madraka, Azhruddin, Pujara, Ganguly and many others are all decent.

They are good test batters and the likes of kohli gets way too much hate in test cricket but Indian fan boys have a need to toss the word the Greatest, Legend, indian great and god knows what else to make it seem like their sample pool is larger then what it actually is.

India and England are the 2 most dissapointing cricketing nations in terms of talent pool since a 1.3 B population + the literal investors and progenitor of cricket should have produced more talent then SA and Australia whos main focus isnt even cricket.

Yet aus and SA lead the charts in terms of talent( Key word talent, not trophy count, Granted Australia seems to be declining after a 100 years since their current upcoming crop aint good)

If you consider only Murali and Warne as ATG spinners then yeah we haven’t had one of their quality.

The problem is that your criteria is too rigid if only two players qualify for it.

Post 1970s, the third best spinner is definitely an Indian, it could be Kumble or Bedi or Ashwin.

 

[mominsaigol]

If you consider only Murali and Warne as ATG spinners then yeah we haven’t had one of their quality.

The problem is that your criteria is too rigid if only two players qualify for it.

Post 1970s, the third best spinner is definitely an Indian, it could be Kumble or Bedi or Ashwin.

This comment was made on June 19 before my heel turn on introduction forumn with you and @Ab Fan

 

[NishanKonar]

If you consider only Murali and Warne as ATG spinners then yeah we haven’t had one of their quality.

The problem is that your criteria is too rigid if only two players qualify for it.

Post 1970s, the third best spinner is definitely an Indian, it could be Kumble or Bedi or Ashwin.

Indian spinners rarely deliver outside Asia - unlike say Nathan Lyon or Daniel Vettori

 

[saimayubera]

Indian spinners rarely deliver outside Asia - unlike say Nathan Lyon or Daniel Vettori

Those guys are not Asian. Their entire style is different.

Foreign pacers rarely deliver in India - unlike Indian pacers.

 

[NishanKonar]

Those guys are not Asian. Their entire style is different.

Foreign pacers rarely deliver in India - unlike Indian pacers.

I have seen foreign pacers win test matches in Asia ( Dale Steyn , Walsh , Anderson )

Yet to see an Indian spinner win India a test in SENA

 

[bunda_bindaas]

Those guys are not Asian. Their entire style is different.

Foreign pacers rarely deliver in India - unlike Indian pacers.

And these spinners (Lyon, Vettori etc) are much worse in Asia, compared to Indian spinners. Even the great Shane Warne averaged 40+ in India.

Hardly a stick to bash Indian spinners with.

 

[bunda_bindaas]

I have seen foreign pacers win test matches in Asia ( Dale Steyn , Walsh , Anderson )

Yet to see an Indian spinner win India a test in SENA

Chandrashekhar's 6/38 against England, Oval, 1971

Chandrashekhar again -- 12/104 against Australia in Melbourne, 1977

Jadeja -- 5/131 Gabba, 2021

 

[saimayubera]

I have seen foreign pacers win test matches in Asia ( Dale Steyn , Walsh , Anderson )

Yet to see an Indian spinner win India a test in SENA

Anderson only has supporting roles in Asia tbh.

Similar is:

Ashwin MCG 2020
Jadeja MCG 2018

Also India has much better pacers now so spinners can only do supporting roles.

In the earlier days with poorer pacers Indian spinners did win matches outside as spinners had to do a lot of the work.

Kumble was great in Headingley 2002, Adelaide 2003, Kingston 2006 with 5fers in the latter 2.

Bhajji also had a 5fer in Kingston 2006 as well as in Hamilton 2009.

Chandra the best - 5fers in wins in Oval, Auckland, Port of Spain, Melbourne

 

[NishanKonar]

Chandrashekhar's 6/38 against England, Oval, 1971

Chandrashekhar again -- 12/104 against Australia in Melbourne, 1977

Jadeja -- 5/131 Gabba, 2021

Jadeja's effort was definitely not matchwinning. Chandrasekhar was well before my time. Also that 1977 test was against Australia's B team ( their A team was playing Kerry Packer's WSC )

But this actually proves my point. Indian spinners never win us overseas test matches

 

[bunda_bindaas]

Kumble -- 4 for 95 and 3 for 55 against West Indies at Antigua, 2002

Harbhajan -- 5 for 13 against West Indies at Kingston, 2006

 

[saimayubera]

Jadeja's effort was definitely not matchwinning. Chandrasekhar was well before my time. Also that 1977 test was against Australia's B team ( their A team was playing Kerry Packer's WSC )

But this actually proves my point. Indian spinners never win us overseas test matches

Jadeja's efforts are as good as Anderson's in India. Support role basically.

And I like how you ignored all the other examples I gave.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Jadeja's effort was definitely not matchwinning. Chandrasekhar was well before my time. Also that 1977 test was against Australia's B team ( their A team was playing Kerry Packer's WSC )

But this actually proves my point. Indian spinners never win us overseas test matches

Even in the limited formats, only Kuldeep has won us something and is statistically best of his generation.

 

[bunda_bindaas]

Jadeja's effort was definitely not matchwinning. Chandrasekhar was well before my time. Also that 1977 test was against Australia's B team ( their A team was playing Kerry Packer's WSC )

But this actually proves my point. Indian spinners never win us overseas test matches

How was that India's problem?

You deny at least 4 instances of India's spinners winning us overseas matches, outside Asia, and keep on harping about Indian spinners not winning us overseas Test Matches?

How many matches have SENA countries won in India because of pace?

 

[bunda_bindaas]

@NishanKonar

Yet to see an Indian spinner win India a test in SENA

This was your original quote, by the way!

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Indian spinners rarely deliver outside Asia - unlike say Nathan Lyon or Daniel Vettori

Ashwin and Lyons away stats are pretty head to head and that too when Lyon has mostly done well in Asia only.

 

[saimayubera]

Even in the limited formats, only Kuldeep has won us something and is statistically best of his generation.

Naah. Jadeja and Ashwin were great in CT 13.

Ashwin and Bhajji also good in 2011.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Indian spinners rarely deliver outside Asia - unlike say Nathan Lyon or Daniel Vettori

Bedi has better performances than Lyon away from home too.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Naah. Jadeja and Ashwin were great in CT 13.

Ashwin and Bhajji also good in 2011.

mention the match winning spells.

2013 CT was an anomaly. In odis, Jadeja averages 35 while Ashwin averages 33. Kuldeep is India's best-ever LOI spinner.

 

[saimayubera]

mention the match winning spells.

2013 CT was an anomaly. In odis, Jadeja averages 35 while Ashwin averages 33. Kuldeep is India's best-ever LOI spinner.

If you reject everything that doesn't support your argument as an "anomaly" obviously you will win the argument.

Ashwin was great in the QF.

Harbhajan took out Umar Akmal when he had got going and then Afridi in the SF.

 

[RyanRyan10]

If you reject everything that doesn't support your argument as an "anomaly" obviously you will win the argument.

It’s an anomaly because such occurrences were rare. I also mentioned that statistically, Indian spinners have not been as good as World's bests. You ignored that part. Ashwin averaged 33 and Jadeja 35, and it was painful to watch them bowl through series after series without impact.

Ashwin was great in the QF.

Harbhajan took out Umar Akmal when he had got going and then Afridi in the SF.

Taking 2 wickets in a 10 over quota isn’t a match winning performance. It can only be considered game-changing if those wickets came in a short burst. Otherwise, these are pretty low standards. Sri Lanka used to choke teams in a way India never could, at least not until recently. Even par -timers often outbowled India’s strike spinners.

Kuldeep and Chahal started changing that perception, though Chahal faded away. Varun’s arrival filled that void and he had made more impact. Kuldeep deserves appreciation for maning India’s spin attack look genuinely threatening.

 

[bunda_bindaas]

It’s an anomaly because such occurrences were rare. I also mentioned that statistically, Indian spinners have not been as good as World's bests. You ignored that part. Ashwin averaged 33 and Jadeja 35, and it was painful to watch them bowl through series after series without impact.



Taking 2 wickets in a 10 over quota isn’t a match winning performance. It can only be considered game-changing if those wickets came in a short burst. Otherwise, these are pretty low standards. Sri Lanka used to choke teams in a way India never could, at least not until recently. Even par -timers often outbowled India’s strike spinners.

Kuldeep and Chahal started changing that perception, though Chahal faded away. Varun’s arrival filled that void and he had made more impact. Kuldeep deserves appreciation for maning India’s spin attack look genuinely threatening.

L Siva was the highest wicket taker in the Benson & Hedges World Series in Australia. Shastri was the MOS.

Kumble took 6 for 12 in the Hero Cup Final.

 

[RyanRyan10]

L Siva was the highest wicket taker in the Benson & Hedges World Series in Australia. Shastri was the MOS.

Kumble took 6 for 12 in the Hero Cup Final.

Siva and Shastri were just benefiting from the excellent support of the pacers. Both were average spinners and averaged in the mid 30s. Siva was dropped soon after, and even in domestic cricket, he remained average. Shastri was carried for the tuktuking he did in that tournament.

The Hero Cup has no value. For a player with such a long career, averaging over 30 and having the Hero Cup victory as the biggest achievement indicates he wasn’t as great as we have been led to believe.

 

[bunda_bindaas]

Siva and Shastri were just benefiting from the excellent support of the pacers. Both were average spinners and averaged in the mid 30s. Siva was dropped soon after, and even in domestic cricket, he remained average. Shastri was carried for the tuktuking he did in that tournament.

The Hero Cup has no value. For a player with such a long career, averaging over 30 and having the Hero Cup victory as the biggest achievement indicates he wasn’t as great as we have been led to believe.

Siva took the highest wickets in the final! They were not just benefitting off the pacers. That's just plain wrong.

Whether he lost form or got dropped later on is a different matter. The fact is, he was the HIGHEST wicket taker in the B&H World Series, organized in Australia. He along with Shastri were the major reasons why India took 49 wickets in 5 games!

He played another key role in Rothman's cup held in Sharjah, soon after, where India defended 125 against Pakistan (bowled them out for 87). Shastri was the MOS in that series too!

As for Kumble, please don't insult his outstanding performances in and outside India. He was a genunie great who took 5fers in South Africa, NZ and the West Indies. In fact, he was a part of 52 Indian Test wins, most of them because of his own contribution.

Also, Kumble

 

[saimayubera]

Siva took the highest wickets in the final! They were not just benefitting off the pacers. That's just plain wrong.

Whether he lost form or got dropped later on is a different matter. The fact is, he was the HIGHEST wicket taker in the B&H World Series, organized in Australia. He along with Shastri were the major reasons why India took 49 wickets in 5 games!

He played another key role in Rothman's cup held in Sharjah, soon after, where India defended 125 against Pakistan (bowled them out for 87). Shastri was the MOS in that series too!

As for Kumble, please don't insult his outstanding performances in and outside India. He was a genunie great who took 5fers in South Africa, NZ and the West Indies. In fact, he was a part of 52 Indian Test wins, most of them because of his own contribution.

Also, Kumble

5fer in Adelaide 2003 1st innings too.

Also key part in 2004 Pak win.

 

[saimayubera]

Good Indian bowlers in general had bad stats simply because they would be the lone hand.

Guys like Kumble, Srinath, Zaheer, Bhajji would be averaging 3-4 points less if they bowled in complete packs.

Now Indian bowlers don't even average over 30.

Since Kohli became captain, no one averages over 30. In fact many are below 25.

You have to go to Shardul, the 13th highest wicket taker to even reach a 30+ average

 

[bunda_bindaas]

Good Indian bowlers in general had bad stats simply because they would be the lone hand.

Guys like Kumble, Srinath, Zaheer, Bhajji would be averaging 3-4 points less if they bowled in complete packs.

Now Indian bowlers don't even average over 30.

Since Kohli became captain, no one averages over 30. In fact many are below 25.

You have to go to Shardul, the 13th highest wicket taker to even reach a 30+ average

View attachment 158559

It's not just that. With the WTC in place, there is a greater emphasis on making result-oriented tracks, at least in India. Pitches in India were hardly that conducive to spin in Kumble and Harbhajan's time. Scores of 500+ were common and Andy Flower used to feast on such tracks. Jimmy Adams (yeah, the default reaction is who?), scored double hundreds for fun in India and failed as a batsman thereafter.

Then there's the issue of DRS which was absent while Kumble was playing. With his accuracy, imagine how many LBWs he must have lost due to umpiring error?