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Has Rishabh Pant exposed the mediocrity of MS Dhoni?

Mamoon said:
Dhoni the ODI batting GOAT narrative needs to be exposed as well. The following Indian batsmen are better than him in ODIs:

Kohli
Sachin
Rohit
Ganguly
Yuvraj
Dhawan
Gambhir

The PR merchant isn’t even in the top 7 best ODI batsmen produced by India and his fans think he is GOAT material. If you include batsmen from other countries, he will find it hard to push into the top 20.

The finisher gimmick was without any substance. He has played 500+ innings for India across formats and even the most ardent “Thala” fans can, at best, only recall 5-6 innings of significance and probably an equal number of innings where he lost games for his country.

Playing the finisher role when you are hiding behind the players mentioned above is not difficult. We would have seen how great of a finisher he was if he played for a weaker side like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.
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ODIs:-

Kohli
Sachin
Rohit
Dhoni
Yuvraj

Then rest
 
Ab Fan said:
ODIs:-

Kohli
Sachin
Rohit
Dhoni
Yuvraj

Then rest
Click to expand...
The disrespect to Ganguly is real, but not unexpected from someone who didn’t watch him play.

Ganguly was a phenomenal ODI batsman. Dhoni is nowhere near.

Ganguly was only behind Sachin, Lara and M. Waugh in the 90s and ahead of Anwar because he didn’t have the luxury of feasting on Indian bowlers.
 
Agreed, Ganguly is a very under-rated ODI batter as people mostly remember him for his captaincy. However, between 1997-2000, he stacked up 19 ODI centuries in just 4 years time. At one point he was even outscoring Sachin in Indian team. He was the best left handed batsman in the world those day and rated higher in CEAT ratings above likes of Lara and Anwar. He was never the same batsman after 2002 though and with the emergence of the likes of Sehwag meant he moved to the middle order which impacted his batting even more.
 
pant is better than dhoni according to this thread

And Rohail Nazir is better than pant on PP

So Rohial Nazir>>> Dhoni. :kp
 
I rate India's white ball batters in following order:

1. Sachin
2. Kohli
3. Dhoni
4. Rohit
5. Ganguly
6. Yuvraj
7. Kapil Dev
8. Gambhir
9. Dhawan
10. Sandip Patil
 
RexRex said:
Dhoni ran like a gazelle and made quick runs for his team whereas Inzy would often get distracted by the smell of a hotdog in the stands #aloo
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A gazelle with a SR of 69 when his team needed 12+ an over. 🤡
 
Mamoon said:
Let me put it this way. Dhoni doesn’t exist and nothing changes for India.

Gambhir successfully captains India who still win everything that they won under Dhoni.

The only thing that might change and for the better is that India do better in Test cricket under Gambhir than they did under Dhoni.

Dhoni found himself at the right place at the right time to steal credit. He was not the catalyst for anything.
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Cant go into hypotheticals like that. Pak would have won 92 WC without Inzi. See how illogical that is.

How do you know Gambhir would have ? Nobody knows. maybe maybe not. Gambhir would have been a better test captain though IMO.

Right place to steal credit ?? No WC is won easily. He was the catalyst after Dravid to make Ind a very good chasing team . And again this is in ODIS bcos I believe msd was average in int T20s.
 
Mamoon said:
Not sure why you are talking to yourself. You don’t even know about your own players and you are accusing me of trolling.

No proper Indian fan would rank Ganguly outside top 5 Indian ODI batsmen. That is criminal.
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Absolute nonsense.

Ganguly is better odi batsman than anyone Pakistan has produced but he is inferior to Dhoni.
 
Rajdeep said:
I rate India's white ball batters in following order:

1. Sachin
2. Kohli
3. Dhoni
4. Rohit
5. Ganguly
6. Yuvraj
7. Kapil Dev
8. Gambhir
9. Dhawan
10. Sandip Patil
Click to expand...

Kohli
Rohit
Ganguly

Top 3 for me. The rest are flexible.
 
Rajdeep said:
I rate India's white ball batters in following order:

1. Sachin
2. Kohli
3. Dhoni
4. Rohit
5. Ganguly
6. Yuvraj
7. Kapil Dev
8. Gambhir
9. Dhawan
10. Sandip Patil
Click to expand...
So, you rate Dhoni at 3 and Ganguly at 5 but liked Mamoon's post where he said,
Mamoon said:
The disrespect to Ganguly is real, but not unexpected from someone who didn’t watch him play.

Ganguly was a phenomenal ODI batsman. Dhoni is nowhere near.

Ganguly was only behind Sachin, Lara and M. Waugh in the 90s and ahead of Anwar because he didn’t have the luxury of feasting on Indian bowlers.
Click to expand...
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Our views change over time, like the seasons, influenced by our experiences and what we learn. @Mamoon is no different. His views can change again. :inti
Click to expand...
Exactly! The focus should be on whether what is being said today is true or not and If you disagree with a claim, counter it with strong arguments instead of relying on past actions.

I am a huge Dhoni fan, so much so that I want him to continue playing IPL so I can watch him play whenever I get a chance. I sometimes simply hate his posts and want to rip them apart, but he is rarely wrong and there is always a strong message in them which should be understood and appreciated. Dhoni is a great ODI batsman and a genius captain, but definitely overhyped by Indian fans as there are much better players found in their own country who did not get the same respect they deserve.
 
Everyone knows that I am a huge Rizwan fan, but Pant is already miles ahead and has played knocks that Rizwan can dream of.
 
Mamoon said:
Are you saying that Dhoni’s 97* is the second greatest ODI innings ever for a WK? Or just the second greatest WC innings by a WK? Please clarify.
Click to expand...
Had Dhoni got out @20 in that match, it may had been a final nail in the caffeine.
Situation 115/3 would have turned into 140/4 and bought Yuvi against Murali with 140 odd Runs to defend.
Don't think Yuvi single handedly tackled Murali that day and only Raina to come.
Lower order generally does not fire in the finals when 70(60) needed.
Gilchrist knock was more destructive, but even if he had been dismissed for 20 odd, there were Ponting, Symonds, Peak Clarke, Hussey etc. Not to forget bowlers who virtually defend any score.
 
Rajdeep said:
I liked the part where he said Ganguly don't get enough credit. There is no doubt Dhoni has to be top 5 ODI batter from India .
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I disagree. There are a few impactful innings of Dhoni but he failed to grasp the opportunity of more as such. But unlike others, his team built a reputation where people have been fed what they wanted people to remember.

Dhoni never give me the sense of "stability" in my mind. I would have trusted UV or even Kaif more than Dhoni..
 
Ice man Dhoni , if he was mediocre then new terminology required to define Hafeez, Shoaib Malik, Kamran Akmal etc
 
Forget Ganguly, Gambhir is a better ODI batsman than Dhoni!

If it wasn't for Gambhir's innings in the WC11 final, then Teenda would still be dreaming of a world cup. Who steals the MoM of the final? The BCCI patsy - Dhoni.
 
Mamoon said:
A gazelle with a SR of 69 when his team needed 12+ an over. 🤡
Click to expand...
Post 2015 msd was a different player compared to pre 2015. How tough is that for you to understand ? Post 2015 , Pant should automatically have been the Ind WK and msd dropped for good. Post 205, I would say he was the worst international wk batsman going around..
 
Technics 1210 said:
Forget Ganguly, Gambhir is a better ODI batsman than Dhoni!

If it wasn't for Gambhir's innings in the WC11 final, then Teenda would still be dreaming of a world cup. Who steals the MoM of the final? The BCCI patsy - Dhoni.
Click to expand...
Posters like him ^ have finally found a voice ,now that Mamoon turned heel.

Before that Technic/ sahab was in his cave crying after every home test defeat. :yk

Amazing.
 
During the brutal tour of England in the early 2010’s, when global warming was at its peak and summer was painfully wet, damp conditions and very poor drainage systems; you had prime Anderson & Mo toying with the Indian batting line up, but Dhoni was probably their best Batter during that series and put up a great fight during testing circumstances.
 
deltexas said:
Post 2015 msd was a different player compared to pre 2015. How tough is that for you to understand ? Post 2015 , Pant should automatically have been the Ind WK and msd dropped for good. Post 205, I would say he was the worst international wk batsman going around..
Click to expand...
It isn’t difficult for me to understand that Dhoni has always been overrated. This pre post nonsense means nothing to me. He was never that good.

He was rubbish in the 2011 World Cup as well except for the final where he stole credit from Gambhir.
 
Mamoon said:
It isn’t difficult for me to understand that Dhoni has always been overrated. This pre post nonsense means nothing to me. He was never that good.

He was rubbish in the 2011 World Cup as well except for the final where he stole credit from Gambhir.
Click to expand...
Your 2nd sentence is full of delusion..except for the final?? Like for real ? It won the Ind the WC and yes Gambhir deserved credit as well if not more. You can carry on. And yes, umar akmal was the bet wk batsman in the 2011 WC lol !
 
deltexas said:
Your 2nd sentence is full of delusion..except for the final?? Like for real ? It won the Ind the WC and yes Gambhir deserved credit as well if not more. You can carry on. And yes, umar akmal was the bet wk batsman in the 2011 WC lol !
Click to expand...
Dhoni struggled in the 2011 World Cup until the final match, where he scored his first fifty.
 
There is no doubt that Dhoni is quite over hyped. He was a rubbish test captain under whom India routinely got battered overseas. Indians have give him a mythical status because of his achievements as limited-overs captain. As test captain he was simply a home track bully under whom India achieved nothing overseas, and as a batter he was just the best wicketkeeper bat uptill that point. Now Pant has already eclipsed him without a shadow of a doubt. Gambhir should have been given the test captaincy when he was under consideration. I'm certain he would have done far better than Dhoni.
 
Mamoon said:
In just over 3 years, Pant has played Test knocks that can be categorized as bigger than Dhoni’s entire Test career. Knocks that Dhoni couldn’t play in his dreams.

In just 36 Tests, Pant has poured cold water over Dhoni’s 90 matches Test career and played better knocks than him.

This adds credence to the argument that Dhoni was a bang average cricketer who was nothing but PR hype. The laughable fictional biopic that was full of lies says a lot about the man and how he functions.

The tragedy is that most Indian fans would never give Pant more respect and recognition than Dhoni even though he is by far the better cricketer.

Rishabh Pant is the best Indian cricketer of his generation and the second best Test WK of all time and he still has plenty of time on his side to surpass Gilchrist.

What an outstanding player and one of the few current Indian players who is genuinely exceptional and not overhyped who success is fueled by BCCI’s protectionism.

Players like Pant are once in a lifetime material.
Click to expand...

Forget comparing him with wkt keepers ... try comparing him with Your latest batting legund ... aka Bobby "Sher" Khan. Bobby would give a arm and a leg ( and then retire happily vowing never to touch a cricket bat again lol) to have the sort of innings that Rishabh Pant has played in his very short career ( and Iam not even referring to *THAT* Gabba innings). So you have bigger things to worry about .... stay in your lane. 🤣
 
Caved12 said:
Dhoni struggled in the 2011 World Cup until the final match, where he scored his first fifty.
Click to expand...
Yeah and that was a brave step. He batted ahead of Yuvraj who was on a hot streak. Imagine if the move backfired and Ind lost - he would have been crucified even to this day.
 
In test matches, Pant is batting at #4 and #5 lately as a specialist batsman.
Dhoni batted at #7 most of his career .... no comparison!!
1729388548330.png


Just for kicks.... here is the comparison between Pant and Dhoni when they batted at positions 3, 4, 5 and 6 (as specialist batsmen). Dhoni averages 55.08 vs Pant who averages 50.55.

1729388872376.png
 
Technics 1210 said:
Forget Ganguly, Gambhir is a better ODI batsman than Dhoni!

If it wasn't for Gambhir's innings in the WC11 final, then Teenda would still be dreaming of a world cup. Who steals the MoM of the final? The BCCI patsy - Dhoni.
Click to expand...
Gambhir was better than any Pakistani batters in history of limited over cricket
 
Thread is about PANT vs DHONI and yet people are bringing some random names like ganguly, gambhir etc to derail the thread.

Please, no more irrelevant stuff now.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Wasim, Mcgrath, Kallis, Murali and Warne rate Lara higher.

Not sure anyone else matters.

The point is when the noise machine settles around Indian players then the true discussion takes place.

Because of the drama around Dhoni I thought he was better than he was. Only now when some of the emotions from the Pro Dhoni side is gone it becomes obvious that he wasn't all that.
Click to expand...

Where did Wasim and McGrath say this?
 
BouncerGuy said:
Thread is about PANT vs DHONI and yet people are bringing some random names like ganguly, gambhir etc to derail the thread.

Please, no more irrelevant stuff now.
Click to expand...
I haven't even participated in this thread yet but just saw this as I concluded my reading through. Those names aren't irrelevant. Pant vs Dhoni does not just mean that only those two names can be mentioned. The other names are all a part of the conversation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If Risabh Pants test exploits is the benchmark to judge mediocrity, every Pakistani batsman is mediocre except Miandad.
 
hafizexpress said:
I haven't even participated in this thread yet but just saw this as I concluded my reading through. Those names aren't irrelevant. Pant vs Dhoni does not just mean that only those two names can be mentioned. The other names are all a part of the conversation.
Click to expand...
How ganguly vs gambhir is gonna add to this thread???

Pant is a keeper. Dhoni is keeper... explain now
 
BouncerGuy said:
How ganguly vs gambhir is gonna add to this thread???

Pant is a keeper. Dhoni is keeper... explain now
Click to expand...
When comparing two players, it's normal to look at others relative to them. You can look at their competition, make comparisons and analogies with other players from other eras, see where either player really stands amongst others, etc.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Tendulkar myth has been shattered after his retirement.

Dhoni myth has been shattered after his retirement.

The lesson is when it comes to Indians try to drown out the noise of the 1 billion + maniacs and analyse a player objectively.
Click to expand...
Tendulkar and Dhoni myths might have shattered after their retirement but some superstar named Babar myth is shattered while he is playing
 
Aham Brahmasmi said:
Tendulkar and Dhoni myths might have shattered after their retirement but some superstar named Babar myth is shattered while he is playing
Click to expand...
He has a chance to make it up before his career ends but it's unlikely.

He is a bit unlucky that they PR machine Sachin and Dhoni had is far superior to his social media warriors.
 
Aham Brahmasmi said:
Tendulkar and Dhoni myths might have shattered after their retirement but some superstar named Babar myth is shattered while he is playing
Click to expand...
Yes. Similar to how the Kohli myth shattered in Test cricket.

From being compared to Sachin and Lara to ending up with a similar Test legacy as Inzamam and Yousuf.
 
Mamoon said:
The disrespect to Ganguly is real, but not unexpected from someone who didn’t watch him play.

Ganguly was a phenomenal ODI batsman. Dhoni is nowhere near.

Ganguly was only behind Sachin, Lara and M. Waugh in the 90s and ahead of Anwar because he didn’t have the luxury of feasting on Indian bowlers.
Click to expand...

Ganguly was an opener for most part, an opener will always be a better “batsman” than a lower middle order bat.

In ODI’s the best batsmen have always been top 3.

The role of middle order and lower middle order is different. Dhoni for the first half of his career excelled in his role as a lower middle order bat, just like Bevan did. However, in terms of pure batsmanship neither of them are as good a batsman as top quality top order batsman like Ganguly, Anwar, Mark Waugh etc.

The problem on PP is people mix the role of a player and achievement in the said role and compare it with a role which produces better players. One needs to have an understanding about those things which most posters on PP lack.

You are spot on with analysis of Ganguly being a better bat than Dhoni.
 
You can’t praise Pant enough. He is less than 50 Tests old but he is already entering GOAT debate, such has been his impact.

He almost died in a car accident, had multiple fractures and couldn’t play for nearly a year and he is still saving his team and is still the only Indian batsman with courage. Dhoni himself was a big coward.

None of the other superstars and kings have any courage. Only Pant does and for the sake of Indian cricket, you would hope that Sarfaraz is cut from the same cloth and not the fabric that produced weak-minded players like Rohit, Kohli, Rahul and Gill who always surrender in tough conditions.

It is a pity that Pant plays for India. A champion like him deserves a proper cricket team like Australia or England.
 
Mamoon said:
You can’t praise Pant enough. He is less than 50 Tests old but he is already entering GOAT debate, such has been his impact.

He almost died in a car accident, had multiple fractures and couldn’t play for nearly a year and he is still saving his team and is still the only Indian batsman with courage. Dhoni himself was a big coward.

None of the other superstars and kings have any courage. Only Pant does and for the sake of Indian cricket, you would hope that Sarfaraz is cut from the same cloth and not the fabric that produced weak-minded players like Rohit, Kohli, Rahul and Gill who always surrender in tough conditions.

It is a pity that Pant plays for India. A champion like him deserves a proper cricket team like Australia or England.
Click to expand...
Fans like @Bhaag Viru Bhaag who were hell bent on overhyping MSD and bashing Pant 2 years ago must learn the importance of the player from this post. Hope he has learnt it. :inti
 
Ab Fan said:
Fans like @Bhaag Viru Bhaag who were hell bent on overhyping MSD and bashing Pant 2 years ago must learn the importance of the player from this post. Hope he has learnt it. :inti
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Forget overhyping but where and when did I hype Dhoni? There are fans who were hell bent on overhyping KL Rahul. Hopefully, they have learnt their lesson. :inti
 
Na man, i would disgaree.

During the 2007-2015 era, for me Dhoni used to be the main guy to get out. Not very eye pleasing, but he was a good batsman that was able to score runs and was hard to get him out. He made Indias lower order batting very strong.

I do agree that Indians did overhype him, going crazy over the shot that he plays by going back in his crease and taking advantage of the yorker deliveries bounce and giving it a name of helicopter shot just because the theatertics that he does by rotating the bat when there isnt any need.

Even his keeping wasnt that good.

But truth is he was a good lower order batsman, and the best indian captain in limited overs.

Dhoni never ran after flamboyant players where express pace or ultra aggressive batsman were added. He went with top performers irrespective of their pr. He won tournaments on the back of trudlers.

The dhoni hype started after 2011 world cup. Before that it was all tendu this tendu that. But the hype is normal after winning a world cup. Imran khan was also hyped after 1992 to the point that every opinion on him is biased in his favor. The whole cornored tiger pr is the biggest lie ever, because the cornored tiger thibg was introduced in 1987 world cup which Pakistan lost in the semis.

They did it again in 92 and won

I have met few people that give an unbiased account of Imrans captaincy where they admit he had flaws aswell, but the world cup with over comes it.
 
Im very happy for Pant in that he recovered from such an accident and is now back at his best. What a long road.

Wish PCB would learn from the top boards on how to rehab player injuries. How many players have we lost to regular injuries that come with the sport with Shaheen, God forbid, being the most recent. Playing him in a stupid world t20 with one knee and he reinjured it again and never regained pace or the ability to go all out.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Pretty sure those threads are still around. Kindly show me where did I overhype Dhoni. I am waiting...
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What about bashing Pant? Now you are supporting the post that is praising Pant but bashing Dhoni? Changing opinions as per convenience lol.
 
Ab Fan said:
What about bashing Pant? Now you are supporting the post that is praising Pant but bashing Dhoni? Changing opinions as per convenience lol.
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There is clearly something wrong with your thinking. I am neither hyping Dhoni nor bashing him. I have every right to criticize a player. I can like parts of a post and hit the like button if I want. Use some common sense, and stop acting like you own Rishabh Pant. If he improves, I will acknowledge it, and I have already praised him whenever he has played well. :inti
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
There is clearly something wrong with your thinking. I am neither hyping Dhoni nor bashing him. I have every right to criticize a player. I can like parts of a post and hit the like button if I want. Use some common sense, and stop acting like you own Rishabh Pant. If he improves, I will acknowledge it, and I have already praised him whenever he has played well. :inti
Click to expand...
Yeah Pant is India’s best batsman now in tests.
 
Mamoon said:
You can’t praise Pant enough. He is less than 50 Tests old but he is already entering GOAT debate, such has been his impact.

He almost died in a car accident, had multiple fractures and couldn’t play for nearly a year and he is still saving his team and is still the only Indian batsman with courage. Dhoni himself was a big coward.

None of the other superstars and kings have any courage. Only Pant does and for the sake of Indian cricket, you would hope that Sarfaraz is cut from the same cloth and not the fabric that produced weak-minded players like Rohit, Kohli, Rahul and Gill who always surrender in tough conditions.

It is a pity that Pant plays for India. A champion like him deserves a proper cricket team like Australia or England.
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It is a pity that Pant plays for India. A champion like him deserves a proper cricket team like Pakistan. There , fixed it for'ya !:ROFLMAO:
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Forget overhyping but where and when did I hype Dhoni? There are fans who were hell bent on overhyping KL Rahul. Hopefully, they have learnt their lesson. :inti
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No one even in their dreams will hype up mental midget klrahul ! Cant believe even klrahul has fans. Only papa and mama Shettys lol. What are you on senor ? :inti:hasan2
 
deltexas said:
No one even in their dreams will hype up mental midget klrahul ! Cant believe even klrahul has fans. Only papa and mama Shettys lol. What are you on senor ? :inti:hasan2
Click to expand...


believe it or not he is saying the exact same thing as what you are saying ..... you just have to simply invert 🙃 EVERY frikkin thing he says it makes perfect sense. The moment it does not then I would be worried. :ROFLMAO:

try it. I kid you not. everybody has a style and this is hid way :ROFLMAO:
 
deltexas said:
No one even in their dreams will hype up mental midget klrahul ! Cant believe even klrahul has fans. Only papa and mama Shettys lol. What are you on senor ? :inti:hasan2
Click to expand...
There are multiple KL Rahul threads here. Go surf around them for a while. :inti
 
Top 5 Indian Test cricketer of all time. The ONLY genuine Test great in this current Indian team.

He is a hell of a cricketer. Mad respect for him and what he does.

Hopefully India get humiliated in Australia but he remains the only shining light.

No PR, no fake narratives, no propaganda, no BCCI protectionism. A genuine superstar.
 
Dhoni wont make it to any asian test xi in any condition.
If its a spinning track even sarfraz is a better bet as batsman. Dhoni the test batsman and player was nothing great.
Pant and Rizwan both are better than him and will make the all time xi of respective countries
 
Great knock in the 2nd inning and could be a match-winning one before he departs for 64.

50+ scores in each inngs at 100+ SR (India)

Virender Sehwag 55(46) & 55(55) vs WI Delhi 2011
Yashasvi Jaiswal 72(51) & 51(45)vs Ban Kanpur 2024
Rishabh Pant 60(59) & 64(57) vs NZ Wankhede 2024
 
As I said before, he is India’s best Test player by a mile and one of their all time greats already. Phenomenal cricketer.
 
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