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prtikul

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The International Atheist Alliance (official website: http://www.atheistalliance.org/) is conducting a global online census of atheists/agnostics/freethinkers/rationalists/humanists, etc. in all countries. So far, over 150,000 people from around the world have cast their votes.
Numbers matter! Be counted!
Vote here:
http://www.atheistcensus.com
Current country wise status-
1. United States of America: 52,184
2. Brazil: 11,093
3. United Kingdom: 10,876
4. Turkey: 9,880
5. Australia: 7,698
6. Canada: 7,003
7. India: 3,193
8. Italy: 2,977
9. Iran: 2,881
10. Poland: 2,714
 
Currently Pakistan have 291 registered votes. Surprising to see Turkey and Iran in top10.
 
And also, it's not surprising to see Turkey and Iran in the top 10 since the survey isn't exclusively for atheists. I'm assuming that the bulk of Turks/Iranians signed up as secularists(Iranians in particular are very vocal about it given the average urban Iranian's strongly secular mindset and the oppressive religious regime that actively suppresses it), non-religious(not the same as atheist. I consider myself non-religious but I still believe in God), rationalists and free thinkers, traits that are pretty common in Turkey and Iran.
 
i believe in god but not religion if that makes sense.. is that agnostic?
 
hafeezrocks said:
Any Atheists from Pakistan or Atheists of Desi origin ( Pakistan) at this forum ?
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Don't think there are any on this forum but I knew one back in high school. Not the typical 'liberal elite' that non-religious Pakistanis are portrayed as either. She was from a really poor family, attended our school on a full scholarship(the school's monthly tuition fees were about the same as what her family made in a month), got a full ride to Princeton and is currently at MIT.
 
ammo said:
i believe in god but not religion if that makes sense.. is that agnostic?
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Non religious. Agnostics are not sure whether or not there is a God so they don't commit fully to either side.
 
tanzeel said:
Don't think there are any on this forum but I knew one back in high school. Not the typical 'liberal elite' that non-religious Pakistanis are portrayed as either. She was from a really poor family, attended our school on a full scholarship(the school's monthly tuition fees were about the same as what her family made in a month), got a full ride to Princeton and is currently at MIT.
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But I think she must have always introduced herself as Theist in front of most people as there is so much pressure to be so and also I dont think anyone in Pakistan can openly declare to be an atheist to his / her entire family .
 
tanzeel said:
And also, it's not surprising to see Turkey and Iran in the top 10 since the survey isn't exclusively for atheists. I'm assuming that the bulk of Turks/Iranians signed up as secularists(Iranians in particular are very vocal about it given the average urban Iranian's strongly secular mindset and the oppressive religious regime that actively suppresses it), non-religious(not the same as atheist. I consider myself non-religious but I still believe in God), rationalists and free thinkers, traits that are pretty common in Turkey and Iran.
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ammo said:
i believe in god but not religion if that makes sense.. is that agnostic?
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Could u shortly explain how does this work? Just a couple of quick questions, this is not a debate.
You believe that a God exists. You believe in your own existence as well, correct?
How do you and God related?
If God does exist then what does he do/What's his function?
What's the purpose of your life if God exist?
And finally, how do you look at Quran? A man made story book?
 
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tanzeel said:
I consider myself non-religious but I still believe in God
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Interesting point, Which kind of God do you believe in?
Do you believe in theory of evolution or creationism prescribed by abrahamic religions?
 
hafeezrocks said:
But I think she must have always introduced herself as Theist in front of most people as there is so much pressure to be so and also I dont think anyone in Pakistan can openly declare to be an atheist to his / her entire family .
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Nope, very openly atheist. Got into a few arguments here and there but it was nigh enough impossible to argue with her given that she was about the smartest person in the school by some distance, and this was a school that produced(and still does) more Ivy league students every year than 99% of the schools in the country. Couple of their alumni are pretty well known (Ali Moin, the 22 As guy who went to Cambridge was in my sister's class and I can say it on record that the guy is a jackass of the highest order).
 
prtikul said:
You are religious and at the same time not sure about existence of God? You can be either religious, agnostic or atheist.
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when I m in trouble or panics about something, I start believing in god but when I m normal I try to think logically and found this concept of God absurd.
 
hafeezrocks said:
Any Atheists from Pakistan or Atheists of Desi origin ( Pakistan) at this forum ?
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I see myself as a Sufi, that's a pretty secure way of being agnostic.

Probably an atheist in Pakistan. :D

I'm too spiritual to not believe in God.
 
Khaleefa said:
Could u shortly explain how does this work? Just a couple of quick questions, this is not a debate.
You believe that a God exists. You believe in your own existence as well, correct?
- That is correct

How do you and God related?
- Still trying to figure that one out. He's helped me out of some impossible situations which I simply don't think I'd have been able to get out of had there not been a higher power pulling some serious strings

If God does exist then what does he do/What's his function?
- A lot. It's a big world and the answer to this question is different depending on how you look at it. To some He represents good, to others, not so much. To me, He's been exceptionally kind despite my defiance to His commandments and questioning His actions/laws. Someone else may have a different view of who He is and what he does.

What's the purpose of your life if God exist?
- Still trying to figure it out.

And finally, how do you look at Quran? A man made story book?
- Definitely not a man made story book but one that doesn't serve much purpose today since the average human being has neither the intelligence to understand it nor the moral fiber to act upon it which makes it somewhat redundant. What that means is that it leaves open the possibility of evil men exploiting the gullible masses using the book to serve their own agendas, something that is blatantly evident on every street of every country where Muslims live.
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Responses in bold.

prtikul said:
Interesting point, Which kind of God do you believe in?
Do you believe in theory of evolution or creationism prescribed by abrahamic religions?
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The Abrahamic God, the one who sent all the messengers. I didn't really understand the creationism vs evolution debate until recently since it's more of a Christian issue than an Islamic one and there isn't much said or written here about the concept of evolution. My sister, a final year med student(the only other member of my family apart from me who's not a fan of the 20th/21st century version of Islam), introduced me to it a few years back and I found her arguments(pro evolution but not the
'we all suddenly turned from apes to our current form' rhetoric, more of a subtle transformation involving small changes over millions of years) backed up by science far more convincing than those of some jahil priest or bishop(christian equivalent of jahil maulanas that are a dime a dozen in Asia). Apparently, people will have 12 toes instead of 10 in the 2300s.
 
TM Riddle said:
when I m in trouble or panics about something, I start believing in god but when I m normal I try to think logically and found this concept of God absurd.
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So you are implying that whenever you are in troube you start praying to God,I won't call you religious.You are more of agnostic, if you find idea of god absurd but at the same time your mind is not strong that Godless world induces fear inside you, Eventually you will get over it by rational thinking.
In my childhood I used feel guilty when only day before exam I used remember God. But now I am atheist.
 
tanzeel said:
Responses in bold.



The Abrahamic God, the one who sent all the messengers. I didn't really understand the creationism vs evolution debate until recently since it's more of a Christian issue than an Islamic one and there isn't much said or written here about the concept of evolution. My sister, a final year med student(the only other member of my family apart from me who's not a fan of the 20th/21st century version of Islam), introduced me to it a few years back and I found her arguments(pro evolution but not the
'we all suddenly turned from apes to our current form' rhetoric, more of a subtle transformation involving small changes over millions of years) backed up by science far more convincing than those of some jahil priest or bishop(christian equivalent of jahil maulanas that are a dime a dozen in Asia). Apparently, people will have 12 toes instead of 10 in the 2300s.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, Your response indicate that you are more of abrahamic religious person who is ready to reform religion as per modern day requirement.
Do you believe in idea of judgement day and eternal hell for all non believers?
 
prtikul said:
Fair enough, Your response indicate that you are more of abrahamic religious person who is ready to reform religion as per modern day requirement.
Do you believe in idea of judgement day and eternal hell for all non believers?
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Wouldn't really use the term 'religious person' since my religiosity is limited to a set of beliefs, the core belief being that in God's existence, that I haven't acted upon in years and am drifting further away from with every passing day.

As for your second question, the answer is no. Judgement day, from what I know, is more about separating good from bad, not believers from non believers and I've never read about Islam equating non believers with bad/evil.
 
I can't think of anything more pointless than these atheist organisations .. oh look let's all get together and celebrate the existance of ..well ..nothing !
 
akheR said:
I see myself as a Sufi, that's a pretty secure way of being agnostic.

Probably an atheist in Pakistan. :D

I'm too spiritual to not believe in God.
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Thats me :akhtar

Gets called Sufi a lot times despite claiming to an atheist (I am pantheist)
 
RexRex said:
I can't think of anything more pointless than these atheist organisations .. oh look let's all get together and celebrate the existance of ..well ..nothing !
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And esp. fed up of Atheism-plus. Lets call jihad on all religions :))
 
RexRex said:
I can't think of anything more pointless than these atheist organisations .. oh look let's all get together and celebrate the existance of ..well ..nothing !
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I can't think of anything more pointless than religious groups .. oh look let's all get together and celebrate the existance of ..well ..fictional books and "gods".
 
RexRex said:
I can't think of anything more pointless than these atheist organisations .. oh look let's all get together and celebrate the existance of ..well ..nothing !
Click to expand...

Call it an attempt to educate, if you will. The alternative is getting together in groups to celebrate the existence of fairytales for grown-ups. And worse, starting wars over them.
 
All monotheistic religions are pretty much the same except for a few details all borne out of the jewish mythology of one god.
 
tanzeel said:
It is more about separating good from bad, not believers from non believers.
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Another interesting question. How are we going to differentiate between good and bad. If we think from the perspestive of theory of evolution, Religions are not required for morals, Homo sapien is social animal, things we define as good are actually those which helps in maintaining law and order in society. Bad things will create chaos which are threatening to existence of our species.
But again defination of good and bad changes in various cultures and religions. If in some cultures polygamy is accepted while in other it is considered bad. As per theory of evolution every male will try to have multiple parterners so that chances of having more children which will ultimately help in continuing his genes.But why restrict it to 4? As females need to carry the children ,they are choosers of male parteners. If female get attracted towards another male which will give better genes to her future children,why polyandry is not allowed for females?
Second question, Do you believe in afterlife and hell?
 
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A Clockwork Orange said:
All monotheistic religions are pretty much the same except for a few details all borne out of the jewish mythology of one god.
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well every religion for example Zoroastrianism, hinduism have mentioned the existance of one supreme diety, one would argue that the judaism emphecised very deeply into the concept of one and only god, but religions before have mentioned the presence of supreme god, its any arguement to be discussed whether they got corrupted gradually
 
Add one more to the US column.


I'm sure there are many closet non believers in hiding....hope they get the courage to come out unhinged.
 
well every religion for example Zoroastrianism, hinduism have mentioned the existance of one supreme diety, one would argue that the judaism emphecised very deeply into the concept of one and only god, but religions before have mentioned the presence of supreme god, its any arguement to be discussed whether they got corrupted gradually
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Yes but the most horrendous acts of violence have been committed in the name of three monotheistic ones.Dont know about zoroastrianism but buddhism doesnot put emphasis on a deity and hinduism has different forms of deties for different groups.
 
QazzarFan said:
Add one more to the US column.


I'm sure there are many closet non believers in hiding....hope they get the courage to come out unhinged.
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People live in Clifton/Defense areas of karachi I think all are non-believers.

I mean, they drink cokes pepsi and watch hollywood movies at cinemas in front of normal public in Ramzan.

Follow American culture to the core.
 
rockers2012 said:
I mean, they drink cokes pepsi and watch hollywood movies at cinemas in front of normal public in Ramzan.

Follow American culture to the core.
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What is this "American culture" that you speak of? Does enjoying things that you like, which happen to be produced in the USA, makes it "American culture"?
 
Jo_Don said:
What is this "American culture" that you speak of? Does enjoying things that you like, which happen to be produced in the USA, makes it "American culture"?
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Well, hanging out with girls before marriage....night clubbing.....drinking alcohol.....eating in public during Ramzan.
It is more like an American culture to me...
 
rockers2012 said:
Well, hanging out with girls before marriage....night clubbing.....drinking alcohol.....eating in public during Ramzan.
It is more like an American culture to me...
Click to expand...
Happens all around the world, not just the USA. And it's their choice what they want to do, so long as they're not harming anyone :)
 
A Clockwork Orange said:
Yes but the most horrendous acts of violence have been committed in the name of three monotheistic ones.Dont know about zoroastrianism but buddhism doesnot put emphasis on a deity and hinduism has different forms of deties for different groups.
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hinduism is a religion which makes one guy inferior and other superior by birth

but the religions didnt themselves commanded their followers to commit horrendous crimes

hitler didnt commit horrendous crimes for sake of christianity, world war 1 and 2 werent fought for religion

its the humans which have the tendency of violance and who have distorted the teachings for their own use then religions here

the israelis dont even follow their religion, they follow what its called zionism, the non zionists jews dont even approve of them

india pakistan didnt develop nukes for religion, they fight over a piece of territory
 
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one more from the uk. its pretty pointless as a census though, uk census already showed 25% of people as being irreligious so im not sure what new info this will throw up.
 
Originally Posted ByHaMmy FinE LeG StriKeR
hinduism is a religion which makes one guy inferior and other superior by birth

but the religions didnt themselves commanded their followers to commit horrendous crimes

hitler didnt commit horrendous crimes for sake of christianity, world war 1 and 2 werent fought for religion

its the humans which have the tendency of violance and who have distorted the teachings for their own use then religions here

the israelis dont even follow their religion, they follow what its called zionism, the non zionists jews dont even approve of them

india pakistan didnt develop nukes for religion, they fight over a piece of territory
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Its true that ultranationalism and racism have killed milions but these two ideologies today are regarded as failed ideals but religion is still causing the death of millions as it had since its inception and its still causing hatred among billions.
 
prtikul said:
So you are implying that whenever you are in troube you start praying to God,I won't call you religious.You are more of agnostic, if you find idea of god absurd but at the same time your mind is not strong that Godless world induces fear inside you, Eventually you will get over it by rational thinking.
In my childhood I used feel guilty when only day before exam I used remember God. But now I am atheist.
Click to expand...

so shall I vote in it or not?
 
prtikul said:
Current country wise status-
1. United States of America: 52,184
2. Brazil: 11,093
3. United Kingdom: 10,876
4. Turkey: 9,880
5. Australia: 7,698
6. Canada: 7,003
7. India: 3,193
8. Italy: 2,977
9. Iran: 2,881
10. Poland: 2,714
Click to expand...

Looks like in per capita terms the Aussies are winning the Atheism Ashes.

Indians are rubbish at atheism, a bit like their team at test cricket.
 
tanzeel said:
Responses in bold.



The Abrahamic God, the one who sent all the messengers. I didn't really understand the creationism vs evolution debate until recently since it's more of a Christian issue than an Islamic one and there isn't much said or written here about the concept of evolution. My sister, a final year med student(the only other member of my family apart from me who's not a fan of the 20th/21st century version of Islam), introduced me to it a few years back and I found her arguments(pro evolution but not the
'we all suddenly turned from apes to our current form' rhetoric, more of a subtle transformation involving small changes over millions of years) backed up by science far more convincing than those of some jahil priest or bishop(christian equivalent of jahil maulanas that are a dime a dozen in Asia). Apparently, people will have 12 toes instead of 10 in the 2300s.
Click to expand...

hmmm interesting.
Does your sister know that in the western world there are more scientists and biologists who do not accept Darwin's theory than those who do?
 
I have never met an atheist who was born Muslim. I think within Islam there is a great pressure to remain theist. But then I have never met a Sikh atheist either.

I believe in God, not so much in strict following of the religious book.
 
I have not met a single atheist in my life... Have meet hindu, jew and christian.... have met some on the net though but not in pakistan.
 
The link was shared by a college friend. I was surprised to know that the conceptualiser of the term "Hindutva" - Sawarkar - was an atheist as well. This friend of mine calls himself an Atheist Hindu.
 
Originally posted by Khaleefa
hmmm interesting.
Does your sister know that in the western world there are more scientists and biologists who do not accept Darwin's theory than those who do?
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Well Khaleefa according to according to recent polls 97% of U.S scientists believe in evolution only 3% so the argument that a majority of scientists and biologists dont believe in a SCIENTIFIC FACTis rubbish.
 
The Abrahamic God, the one who sent all the messengers. I didn't really understand the creationism vs evolution debate until recently since it's more of a Christian issue than an Islamic one and there isn't much said or written here about the concept of evolution. My sister, a final year med student(the only other member of my family apart from me who's not a fan of the 20th/21st century version of Islam), introduced me to it a few years back and I found her arguments(pro evolution but not the
'we all suddenly turned from apes to our current form' rhetoric, more of a subtle transformation involving small changes over millions of years) backed up by science far more convincing than those of some jahil priest or bishop(christian equivalent of jahil maulanas that are a dime a dozen in Asia). Apparently, people will have 12 toes instead of 10 in the 2300s.
Click to expand...


So what you are saying is that not the ape theory but our bodies do evolve in time and we could end up growing wings in the future. Kinda like a constant update that takes millions of years. :P :P
 
The link was shared by a college friend. I was surprised to know that the conceptualiser of the term "Hindutva" - Sawarkar - was an atheist as well. This friend of mine calls himself an Atheist Hindu.
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Thats funny bcz i met a hindu who started talking to me about how Hinduism is a dying religion bcz its slowly becoming a way of life.
 
Robert said:
Looks like in per capita terms the Aussies are winning the Atheism Ashes.

Indians are rubbish at atheism, a bit like their team at test cricket.
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Don't forgot that thread starter is Indian. At least in India you can live normal life even if you are open atheist. By the way I have nothing but respect for Uk for giving humanity jewels like Newton(According to me greatest scientist of all time for contribution in physics and calculus), Charles Darwin(Man who killed God).
 
prtikul said:
Charles Darwin(Man who killed God).
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Not necessarily, it's just another case of religious people becoming sensitive because the ToE clashed with their particular brand of whatever religion they followed. There's absolutely no reason why God, religion and evolution cannot co-exist within the same framework.
 
Jo_Don said:
Not necessarily, it's just another case of religious people becoming sensitive because the ToE clashed with their particular brand of whatever religion they followed. There's absolutely no reason why God, religion and evolution cannot co-exist within the same framework.
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Well it depends on which religion you are talking about.Some are flexible while in some you can't change anything.
By the way it was my personal opinion,you are free to refute. I can't explain what was there before big bang or origin of time. So faith in god is subjective matter but religious God who grant hell to non believers is imaginary.
 
saiyan0312 said:
So what you are saying is that not the ape theory but our bodies do evolve in time and we could end up growing wings in the future. Kinda like a constant update that takes millions of years. :P :P
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Yep, something like that.
 
Religion is the biggest scam to have hit humanity. I can accept agnostics who believe in a supreme being or supreme power...it's debatable but being submissive to ridiculous moronic rituals and guidelines that goes against one's instinctive judgement in order to be closer to that supreme being is highly perfunctory. And then having the audacity of judging another human being just because he or she is not following those set rules and condemning him/her to eternal hell? Not to mention hardcore criminals, murderers, rapists are forgiven if he or she suddenly one day decides to accept these rules and be obedient and suddenly all his/her crimes are forgiven? The concept of hell/heaven is laughable and the fact that religion has to use a "reward" system to attract followers, condemn other human being who's not part of your club and categorize them as your enemy is the biggest indication of its fraudulent framework.

If a "Supreme being" exists, it would be above all these petty man made differences and would accept any and everyone without meeting certain criteria. That makes more sense than you're not part of our club, you're not one of us and automatically that makes you against us.

It's amazing how a human mind works. The same mind that is capable of sending an object millions of miles away into space, build complex engineering/architectural marvels can also choose to be irrational and illogical and submit themselves to some of the most asinine/prehistoric rituals in modern times in order to maintain their "faith."
 
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QazzarFan said:
Religion is the biggest scam to have hit humanity. I can accept agnostics who believe in a supreme being or supreme power...
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Agnosticism is a very weak theistic stance IMO. One is either atheist or theist, there is no middle ground. You either believe in Santa or you don't believe in him, you either believe in gnomes or you don't believe in them, you either believe in fairies or you don't believe in them, you either believe in God(s) or you don't believe in him/her/them.

Also, agnosticism really has no place in theism. Gnosticism means knowledge, and agnosticism means without knowledge. It's applicable to absolutely anything - one who has no knowledge of quantum mechanics is agnostic towards it.
 
QazzarFan said:
Religion is the biggest scam to have hit humanity. I can accept agnostics who believe in a supreme being or supreme power...it's debatable but being submissive to ridiculous moronic rituals and guidelines that goes against one's instinctive judgement in order to be closer to that supreme being is highly perfunctory. And then having the audacity of judging another human being just because he or she is not following those set rules and condemning him/her to eternal hell? Not to mention hardcore criminals, murderers, rapists are forgiven if he or she suddenly one day decides to accept these rules and be obedient and suddenly all his/her crimes are forgiven?

It's amazing how a human mind works. The same mind that is capable of sending an object millions of miles away into space can also choose to be irrational and illogical and submit themselves to some of the most prehistoric rituals in order to maintain their "faith."
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Top post QuzzarFan.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)
 
prtikul said:
Well it depends on which religion you are talking about.Some are flexible while in some you can't change anything.
By the way it was my personal opinion,you are free to refute. I can't explain what was there before big bang or origin of time. So faith in god is subjective matter but religious God who grant hell to non believers is imaginary.
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Let's imagine that I'm referring to the Abrahamic religions, which are the more inflexible ones. Yeah, there is a certain element in creation in all of them, but there is no indication one way or the other that their God didn't also create the mechanisms for evolution to take place. Evolution is therefore perfectly compatible with their belief system if they allow it to be.
 
Evolution implies that we arenot special creatures created by a divine power we are just another part of the animal kingdom evolved like every living lifeform so how does that explanation go with abrahamic religions insistence on the adam and eve story.
 
World would be better without god. No riots, less hatred, no fundamentalists. Humanity is the only god we should give importance to.
 
Jo_Don said:
Let's imagine that I'm referring to the Abrahamic religions, which are the more inflexible ones. Yeah, there is a certain element in creation in all of them, but there is no indication one way or the other that their God didn't also create the mechanisms for evolution to take place. Evolution is therefore perfectly compatible with their belief system if they allow it to be.
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Being atheist Hindu, I am ignorent about abrahamic religions.For little knowledge that I have is about world is created by God some few thousand years ago, then Adam-Eve then forbidden fruit.
I don't know how you are going to incorporate Miller Urey experiment of origion of life in religious books, while changes in religious book is strictly prohibited.
If you ask about Dharmic religions, no one is questioning the theory of evolution. Hinduism and Buddhism are more of cultures than strict religions with single holy book. Being culture hinduism is prone to casteism and superstitions but at the same time there are chances of amendment into it.
 
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A Clockwork Orange said:
Evolution implies that we arenot special creatures created by a divine power we are just another part of the animal kingdom evolved like every living lifeform so how does that explanation go with abrahamic religions insistence on the adam and eve story.
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Depends on whether they take the Adam and Eve story literally or not.
 
memamia2005 said:
This is interesting - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_in_Hinduism

As per this Atheism is valid in Hinduism.
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Hinduism is really an interesting and beautiful religion, if it wasn't for the post-Vedic Brahamanic addition it would be totally perfect and as "marketable" in the West as Buddhism nowadays is (which is also a curse I think.)
The faith of our ancestors, and I actually don't see any contradiction with Sufism.
In fact, intellectually I'm a follower of René Guénon, a 20th-century French metaphysician who began with Hinduism and ended up converting to Islam, as he thought that there was only one original message (as the Qur'an itself puts it) but that Sufism was the only way which encompassed all religious traditions (Hinduism incl) and his Sufism was in fact more orthodox that what you can find in the Islamic world (he prayed five times a day, ...) and not the New Age BS.

To all atheists here who are interested in (serious) literature over religion, I'd advise you at least two books of René Guénon : The Crisis of the Modern World and Symbolism of the Cross.
You will probably not become monks or imams the very next day, but you will change your perspective on God.
 
I am an atheist but I support religion. Why? because Logic is not enough to live a satisfying life. Of course if someone has some other concrete purpose in life, then no need of religion
 
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Singham said:
World would be better without god. No riots, less hatred, no fundamentalists.
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Totally hypothetical and pompous statement. When you don't have a god-given morality you can be easily be a Stalin or a Mao - Just as you can be an Islamic terrorist
 
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Originally Posted by shakil
Totally hypothetical and pompous statement. When you don't have a god-given morality you can be easily be a Stalin or a Mao - Just as you can be an Islamic terrorist
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Stalin or Mao didnot kill people in the name of ATHEISM they killed people for an economic system they believed in.Besides modern morality isnot based on religious morality or else why would have woman getting an adequate education and going out of the house and WORKING for a living or rational people believing that Gay people are infact normal and not the reincarnation of the devil.
 
A Clockwork Orange said:
Stalin or Mao didnot kill people in the name of ATHEISM they killed people for an economic system they believed in.Besides modern morality isnot based on religious morality or else why would have woman getting an adequate education and going out of the house and WORKING for a living or rational people believing that Gay people are infact normal and not the reincarnation of the devil.
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They kill people because they consider some humans to be superior than others (like Hitler) or because they can do so. Their moral judgements were wrong because they didn't subscribe to better moral standards like in (most) religions.

The point is without religion one's morality CAN be dangerous. Atheism doesn't give you guidelines about Morality and then Atheists have to look elsewhere to make moral judgements. Atheists can be vegetarians, humanists, philanthropist or misanthropes. A misanthrope atheist can easily justify killing someone he doesn't like too much.

One can make an case about Mao and Stalin being misanthropes because they justified the killing of thousands by their twisted moral standards.

God cannot come out of nothing . Similarly, morality cannot come out Atheism. So there is no way you can control the choice of morality.

I have been a former nihilist :) and believed personally that after you become morally nihilist, you can do anything - even kill someone if no one is watching :asif:
 
So killing people for having a different god than u or having a different interpretation of your religion is morally justifiable.Or what about killing apostates u r free to join islam but not allowed to change ur mind even if u were born to muslim parents and didnot have choice in being a muslim.Or what about beheading journalists,soldiers and bombing innocent people is that morally justifiable.
 
akheR said:
Hinduism is really an interesting and beautiful religion, if it wasn't for the post-Vedic Brahamanic addition it would be totally perfect and as "marketable" in the West as Buddhism nowadays is (which is also a curse I think.)
T
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One interesting thing about religions is that while many vary in how beautiful they might seem in theory, in practice people more or less have the same instincts and behave pretty much the same way. So while Islam is on the surface a far more violent religion than Buddhism, it was the Buddhists who went on the rampage and ethnically cleansed the Muslims from Burma.

Probably a good an argument I can make for secular rule than any. Most people are secular in their actions as can be seen from the above example in any case.
 
I'm too paranoid to give them my email address, but count another for USA.
 
A Clockwork Orange said:
So killing people for having a different god than u or having a different interpretation of your religion is morally justifiable.Or what about killing apostates u r free to join islam but not allowed to change ur mind even if u were born to muslim parents and didnot have choice in being a muslim.Or what about beheading journalists,soldiers and bombing innocent people is that morally justifiable.
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lolwut........what BS is this????

its better to stay quiet than making a tool to urself

be calm
and move on
 
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