Ayodhya/Babri verdict

[muzher]

Any news or talk on whether the people behind the senseless destruction of the masjid in 1992 will be brought to justice?

 

[Torpedo]

I have a couple of questions.

1. Were the perpetrators ever brought to justice who took down the mosque?
2. Hindus say that Ram is God and is born there. Isn't that a contradiction itself? That he is God and he is born in Ayodhya?

 

[dinakar]

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/12/08/world/pakistanis-attack-30-hindu-temples.html

In Lahore thousands of people accompanied a bulldozer in demolishing an abandoned Hindu temple. Crowds set fire to six other temples and stormed the office of Air-India.

"Crush India!" marchers shouted. "Death to Hinduism!" Business was brought to a standstill by a strike that closed shops and offices.

http://www.metransparent.com/spip.php?page=article&id_article=7551&lang=en

Following the demolition of the historic Babri Mosque in India in 1992 by Hindu extremists, over 200 Hindu temples were destroyed across Pakistan by angry Muslims.

http://www.dawn.com/2006/05/28/nat23.htm
Another temple is no more

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where was all this common sense that is being preached today when these incidents happened? Babri Mosque was demolished by criminals and there is a court proceeding going against those cirminals. Hopefully justice will be delivered and the idiots will get the punsihment they deserve. At the same time, how many of those invovled in razing these 200 temples have been brought to book so far? Was there ever a court case against any of the perpetrators of the crime of razing temples or a clamour for restoring some of those razed temples?

It's always easier to preach, but unfortunately the sub continent has seen shameful days due to a overporuing of religious emotions fanned by the fanatics on either side. And the public does get fooled into commiting crimes which anyone with a sane mind will never ever do.

Thankfully the reactions have not gone to the extreme this time and all the parties to the dispute have so far been asking for calm and peace. This is a test for us and god willing we will come through it without any bloodshed.

That shuts many mouths!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[adit_sh]

I have a couple of questions.

1. Were the perpetrators ever brought to justice who took down the mosque?
2. Hindus say that Ram is God and is born there. Isn't that a contradiction itself? That he is God and he is born in Ayodhya?

Ram is considered to be sent by God himself to destroy Evil acc to Hindu Mythology. Hindu's believes God-sent also as God. Just Faith & belief.

 

[tpass]

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/12/08/world/pakistanis-attack-30-hindu-temples.html

In Lahore thousands of people accompanied a bulldozer in demolishing an abandoned Hindu temple. Crowds set fire to six other temples and stormed the office of Air-India.

"Crush India!" marchers shouted. "Death to Hinduism!" Business was brought to a standstill by a strike that closed shops and offices.

http://www.metransparent.com/spip.php?page=article&id_article=7551&lang=en

Following the demolition of the historic Babri Mosque in India in 1992 by Hindu extremists, over 200 Hindu temples were destroyed across Pakistan by angry Muslims.

http://www.dawn.com/2006/05/28/nat23.htm
Another temple is no more

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where was all this common sense that is being preached today when these incidents happened? Babri Mosque was demolished by criminals and there is a court proceeding going against those cirminals. Hopefully justice will be delivered and the idiots will get the punsihment they deserve. At the same time, how many of those invovled in razing these 200 temples have been brought to book so far? Was there ever a court case against any of the perpetrators of the crime of razing temples or a clamour for restoring some of those razed temples?

It's always easier to preach, but unfortunately the sub continent has seen shameful days due to a overporuing of religious emotions fanned by the fanatics on either side. And the public does get fooled into commiting crimes which anyone with a sane mind will never ever do.

Thankfully the reactions have not gone to the extreme this time and all the parties to the dispute have so far been asking for calm and peace. This is a test for us and god willing we will come through it without any bloodshed.

Any comments from so many wise and preacher here?

 

[adit_sh]

That shuts many mouths!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did we ever bothered about those

 

[Sameer K]

Some people are really confused. Mughal rule is not muslim rule. Stop saying things like "we ruled India". You had nothing to do with ruling India. You were all common citizens just like everybody else. It was a monarchy. Get over it. The british rule isn't seen as christians ruling us is it??

This does not set a precedent. The site has particular significance and has been mentioned in hindu holy texts from 1400 B.C. ASI has found evidence that a temple existed there, and no ASI is not filled with BJP cronies as claimed by some here. The case had been going on from 1940s. No other case of this nature in India.
The muslim judge has also agreed with the above.

The criminal case is in court for the thugs who carried out the demolition.

The last thing India needs is advice on religious tolerance from Pakistan. Forget minorities. The different sects of Islam itself don't get along in Pakistan. Just read the Shia Sunni threads on this forum itself.

 

[Garuda]

Guys, I don't think we can have a verdict as per the religeous or as her historical facts/believe.

Fact 1. No person, no govt, no court can move hindu idols from that spot. I mean practically its just not possible now. The country will loose its stability in no time.

Fact 2. The entire land can not be given to hindus. That would create a rift between majority and minority.



So all historical and religeous believe need to be kept aside and a solution has to be found out.

The solution has to be for India and not for hindus or muslims or anyone else.

I will be happy as long as the verdict doesn't go in favor of any one and keep the peace intact.

 

[Torpedo]

The thread is about Babri verdict, if you want to talk about temple demolitions in Pakistan, please create a different thread for that.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Interesting that not one Hindu poster has condemned the destruction of the mosque in 1992. They all seem to support today's verdict forgetting that without the desecretion of a holy site which led to the deaths of 1000s the mosque would still be there.

The architectural evidence to show a temple once existed was discredited as in the early 1990s the ASI was staffed with BJP symphatisers/cronies. They even tried to claim the Taj Mahal was on the site of a Hindu temple.

Sure you can't prove that your god was born there - the verdict seems to say it is enough if hindus believe he was born there. What if enough hindus believe a god was born on the site of the Taj Mahal (or any other muslim building in india)? Is that enough to generate a dispute and ensure a temple is erected in its place?

This just rewards destruction of a mosque. What's to stop a hindu mob from doing the same to say Jama Masjid in Delhi. The court is saying destroy it, claim it was originally a site of a temple, get enough people to believe (erroneously) that a hindu god was born there and bingo - we'll give you most of the land so you can build a temple.

Whether hindus like it or not Muslims ruled much of India for over 600 years. Its burned on your psyche and destroying mosques will not change that history or wipe away that hurt. Instead of seeing it as a humiliating episode in your history, embrace and enjoy the heritage it has left behind in terms of language, food, architecture etc.

Time to step out of lala LAND, the invading Mughal barbarians set the precendent for demolishing places of worship....

 

[Romali_rotti]

Some people are really confused. Mughal rule is not muslim rule. Stop saying things like "we ruled India". You had nothing to do with ruling India. You were all common citizens just like everybody else. It was a monarchy. Get over it. The british rule isn't seen as christians ruling us is it??

This does not set a precedent. The site has particular significance and has been mentioned in hindu holy texts from 1400 B.C. ASI has found evidence that a temple existed there, and no ASI is not filled with BJP cronies as claimed by some here. The case had been going on from 1940s. No other case of this nature in India.
The muslim judge has also agreed with the above.

The criminal case is in court for the thugs who carried out the demolition.

The last thing India needs is advice on religious tolerance from Pakistan. Forget minorities. The different sects of Islam itself don't get along in Pakistan. Just read the Shia Sunni threads on this forum itself.

Its really laughable only a handfull of Pakistanis have Mughal blood in em rest were just forced converts and they think they are decendants of an ancient Turkish race LOL.......

 

[cornered paktiger]

Its really laughable only a handfull of Pakistanis have Mughal blood in em rest were just forced converts and they think they are decendants of an ancient Turkish race LOL.......

I'm not syaing "we" ruled India and yes your right most Pakistanis do not have mughal blood. But Muslim rule was not restricted to Mughals - prior to them Turks, Persians and Afghans all ruled Northern India. From 1192 to around 1800 most of present Northern India (and much of the rest) was ruled by Muslims followed by 150 years of British rule.

 

[adit_sh]

I'm not syaing "we" ruled India and yes your right most Pakistanis do not have mughal blood. But Muslim rule was not restricted to Mughals - prior to them Turks, Persians and Afghans all ruled Northern India. From 1092 to around 1800 most of present Northern India (and much of the rest) was ruled by Muslims followed by 150 years of British rule.

Brought some sanity

 

[madaboutlfc]

Pakistanis won't love this judgement quite natural.Because it suggests Hindus-Muslims to co exist,which is unthinkable for them.

But thats India.We can co exist.

Hindus and Muslims have not co-existed peacefully in India.. I think you need to read history of communal riots to blow up that myth

 

[madaboutlfc]

Thats a good one,now make a Hindu commander in chief.

well im sure if we pretended to be a secular country we could have figure head hindus all over the place.. till then nah and we dont need to prove the secular credentials like your lot

 

[Alam_dar]

Its really laughable only a handfull of Pakistanis have Mughal blood in em rest were just forced converts and they think they are decendants of an ancient Turkish race LOL.......

Dear, is not ancient India the home of Budhists and Hindu Kings later converted them to Hinduism?

I am not intended to attack Hindu Religion... I do respect all religions and good things in them (including Hindu Religion too who has some very good teachings too).

But reality is if Hindus in India has been converted to Islam, then the main factor in it was not "Mughals" usage of force. No, the main reason was the Caste System in Hindu Religion.

Hindus today themselves blame that almost NO Higher Caste Hindu converted to Islam, but you blame it were only Shudars (Dillats, the lower caste) who converted to Islam, while they were poor.

I tell you friend, Dilats were not only poor, but they had been very badly treated in Hindu Society (due to Hindu Religion?). And this is much bigger reason of their conversion (if true) in comparison to usage of Force.

 

[Sameer K]

Hindus and Muslims have not co-existed peacefully in India.. I think you need to read history of communal riots to blow up that myth

Muslims and Muslims have not co-existed peacefully in Pakistan. Read abt your history too, Bangladesh, Shia, Sunni and Ahmeddiya.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Dear, is not ancient India the home of Budhists and Hindu Kings later converted them to Hinduism?

I am not intended to attack Hindu Religion... I do respect all religions and good things in them (including Hindu Religion too who has some very good teachings too).

But reality is if Hindus in India has been converted to Islam, then the main factor in it was not "Mughals" usage of force. No, the main reason was the Caste System in Hindu Religion.
Hindus today themselves blame that almost NO Higher Caste Hindu converted to Islam, but you blame it were only Shudars (Dillats, the lower caste) who converted to Islam, while they were poor.

I tell you friend, Dilats were not only poor, but they had been very badly treated in Hindu Society (due to Hindu Religion?). And this is much bigger reason of their conversion (if true) in comparison to usage of Force.

Caste system was an issue I am not gonna deny that, it still exists however I am sure you heard about the mughal my main man Aurangzeb and the way he used to run things back when he was at helm....

 

[Romali_rotti]

Brought some sanity

I wish British were still in charge of India, had Gandhi been smart enough to work out a compromise between the whites & Indians ALA Mandella we wouldnt have been a third world country today..................

 

[StraightHit]

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/12/08/world/pakistanis-attack-30-hindu-temples.html

In Lahore thousands of people accompanied a bulldozer in demolishing an abandoned Hindu temple. Crowds set fire to six other temples and stormed the office of Air-India.

"Crush India!" marchers shouted. "Death to Hinduism!" Business was brought to a standstill by a strike that closed shops and offices.

http://www.metransparent.com/spip.php?page=article&id_article=7551&lang=en

Following the demolition of the historic Babri Mosque in India in 1992 by Hindu extremists, over 200 Hindu temples were destroyed across Pakistan by angry Muslims.

http://www.dawn.com/2006/05/28/nat23.htm
Another temple is no more


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where was all this common sense that is being preached today when these incidents happened? Babri Mosque was demolished by criminals and there is a court proceeding going against those cirminals. Hopefully justice will be delivered and the idiots will get the punsihment they deserve. At the same time, how many of those invovled in razing these 200 temples have been brought to book so far? Was there ever a court case against any of the perpetrators of the crime of razing temples or a clamour for restoring some of those razed temples?

It's always easier to preach, but unfortunately the sub continent has seen shameful days due to a overporuing of religious emotions fanned by the fanatics on either side. And the public does get fooled into commiting crimes which anyone with a sane mind will never ever do.

Thankfully the reactions have not gone to the extreme this time and all the parties to the dispute have so far been asking for calm and peace. This is a test for us and god willing we will come through it without any bloodshed.

WOW! This is news to me! I am not religious in anyway but it is really sad to see such acts in the name of religion.

Once, one of my friends was traveling in a rickshaw near ayodhya and he asked the driver about this mandir/mosque issue and he said "yaar sir, agar woh zameen pe ek hospatal ya school bana de te toh aaj koi woh zameen ke liya ladta nahin"

Our rickshaw drivers have more sense than our stupid politicians and religious leaders.

 

[moumotta]

I wish British were still in charge of India, had Gandhi been smart enough to work out a compromise between the whites & Indians ALA Mandella we wouldnt have been a third world country today..................

Thats a rather simplistic view.

Whites had substantial personal economic investments in South Africa and Zimbabwe in the form of businesses and land holdings that were acquired at the expense of the local population. That wasn't the case in India.


Also, I don't understand how having a few whites own bulk of our economic resources would have helped Indians.

 

[cornered paktiger]

Caste system was an issue I am not gonna deny that, it still exists however I am sure you heard about the mughal my main man Aurangzeb and the way he used to run things back when he was at helm....

You seem to have a bugbear about Aurangzeb. He only reigned for about 50 years and was the last great Mughal emporer. There was already 450 years of Muslim rule before him and around 100 years after him (though during this period the mughal empire disintegrated and India became a patchwork of kingdoms - some hindu but mostly Muslim).

Its true he wasn't particulalrly tolerant by today's standards but his reign was not about crushing Hindus and forcing them to convert. In fact most of his reign was spent fire-fighting. He was constantly engaged in battles and fighting rebellions. Many but not all of these rebellions were by hindu chiefs and so most of his armies ire was directed at crushing rebellions which happened to be hindu rebellions.

 

[moumotta]

You seem to have a bugbear about Aurangzeb. He only reigned for about 50 years and was the last great Mughal emporer. There was already 450 years of Muslim rule before him and around 100 years after him (though during this period the mughal empire disintegrated and India became a patchwork of kingdoms - some hindu but mostly Muslim).

Its true he wasn't particulalrly tolerant by today's standards but his reign was not about crushing Hindus and forcing them to convert. In fact most of his reign was spent fire-fighting. He was constantly engaged in battles and fighting rebellions. Many but not all of these rebellions were by hindu chiefs and so most of his armies ire was directed at crushing rebellions which happened to be hindu rebellions.

He wasn't particularly tolerant even for his own times. Many of the rebellions he had to fight were revolts against his intolerant policies. There are several accounts of his attempts to convert hindus and destroy their places of worship.

For starters, read up on what led him to kill Guru Tegh Bahadur, the ninth guru of sikhs.

 

[dps2009]

Thats a rather simplistic view.

Whites had substantial personal economic investments in South Africa and Zimbabwe in the form of businesses and land holdings that were acquired at the expense of the local population. That wasn't the case in India.


Also, I don't understand how having a few whites own bulk of our economic resources would have helped Indians.

exactly. brits would not have gotten over the burra sahib attitude and continued to siphon off indian resources. thank god we saw them leave.

and you can't paint all the mughal rulers by the paintbrush of auranzeb. akbar was a great ruler. conversion was a political tool to control the populace back in the medieval ages.

 

[Romali_rotti]

You seem to have a bugbear about Aurangzeb. He only reigned for about 50 years and was the last great Mughal emporer. There was already 450 years of Muslim rule before him and around 100 years after him (though during this period the mughal empire disintegrated and India became a patchwork of kingdoms - some hindu but mostly Muslim).

Its true he wasn't particulalrly tolerant by today's standards but his reign was not about crushing Hindus and forcing them to convert. In fact most of his reign was spent fire-fighting. He was constantly engaged in battles and fighting rebellions. Many but not all of these rebellions were by hindu chiefs and so most of his armies ire was directed at crushing rebellions which happened to be hindu rebellions.

You call this Nazi 'great' by the way I have read plenty about him to know what he was I dont need you to explain.. That guy Babur wasnt way off either..... Only Akbar had a bit of class among the Mughal rulers rest were just...........

 

[Romali_rotti]

He wasn't particularly tolerant even for his own times. Many of the rebellions he had to fight were revolts against his intolerant policies. There are several accounts of his attempts to convert hindus and destroy their places of worship.

For starters, read up on what led him to kill Guru Tegh Bahadur, the ninth guru of sikhs.

I believe he tried to convert the Sikh guru to a Muslim to which he refused and Aurangzeb took care of the rest........

 

[MIG]

May I also add that some of the rulers werent even Muslims themselves !

Akbar apparently tried his hand at fusion and came up with Deene Akbari !

 

[Stewie]

Its funny how this thread has now been invaded by Indians, in fact mostly Hindu Indians and they are doing everything to defend the verdict.


My only point through all this mess has been this: I believe Pakistanis are up there when it comes to civil rights violations and lack of injustice but Indians through this verdict have proven they are not too far behind. Also they cannot continue to claim to be a secular state anymore because it has been proven what a majority section of a population belonging to a particular religious denomination can achieve through sheer force of majority. Simply compare the statements of the three judges (2hindus and 1 muslim) and you will see what I mean.

We are bad but you aint any better yourself!

This would not have happened in a developed/civilized country. I have personally been to Hindu temples in the USA and marvelled at the art and architecture and the devotion of people and similarly I know quite a few Hindus who frequent masjids. I guess we come to grips with this only because we are now assimilated into a civilized western culture. Had we been back in India or Pakistan, we will probably be going at each others' throats.

Thats the sad reality of it. Whatever happened in 92 in India was shameful. What happened in Pakistan in retaliation to the Ayodhya incident was equally shameful.

P.S Pakistani posters asking Indian to prove Ram is God and what not are being unfair. The only reason I asked them to furnish evidence that Ram was actually born there was to prove a point that without concrete historical evidence of his birth there, Hindus dont have a case. I did not mean to question their faith and belief because that would be too condescending of me. I apologize if I hurt any sentiment there.

 

[cornered paktiger]

May I also add that some of the rulers werent even Muslims themselves !

Akbar apparently tried his hand at fusion and came up with Deene Akbari !

Probably correct but debateable and even then he could not openly declare himself non-muslim for fear of losing support amongst the army, the clergy who tried to rein him in and the noblemen.

Otherwise the mughals (and other rulers before the mughals who are largely forgotten) were all muslims but obviously like all muslims had varying degrees of observance.

 

[Stewie]

I am Lodhi Pathan and belong to Ibrahim Lodhi's tribe. I guess I can truthfully claim, my ancestors ruled India for a while and sat in Delhi ...

 

[Sameer K]

Its funny how this thread has now been invaded by Indians, in fact mostly Hindu Indians and they are doing everything to defend the verdict.


My only point through all this mess has been this: I believe Pakistanis are up there when it comes to civil rights violations and lack of injustice but Indians through this verdict have proven they are not too far behind. Also they cannot continue to claim to be a secular state anymore because it has been proven what a majority section of a population belonging to a particular religious denomination can achieve through sheer force of majority. Simply compare the statements of the three judges (2hindus and 1 muslim) and you will see what I mean.

We are bad but you aint any better yourself!

This would not have happened in a developed/civilized country. I have personally been to Hindu temples in the USA and marvelled at the art and architecture and the devotion of people and similarly I know quite a few Hindus who frequent masjids. I guess we come to grips with this only because we are now assimilated into a civilized western culture. Had we been back in India or Pakistan, we will probably be going at each others' throats.

Thats the sad reality of it. Whatever happened in 92 in India was shameful. What happened in Pakistan in retaliation to the Ayodhya incident was equally shameful.

P.S Pakistani posters asking Indian to prove Ram is God and what not are being unfair. The only reason I asked them to furnish evidence that Ram was actually born there was to prove a point that without concrete historical evidence of his birth there, Hindus dont have a case. I did not mean to question their faith and belief because that would be too condescending of me. I apologize if I hurt any sentiment there.

Have you read the statements of the three judges?? The muslim judge also agreed with the verdict. The 2:1 split was because one of the other judges did not want the land to be split three ways, he wanted to give the whole area to Ram janmabhoomi.

The criminal case for the destruction of the mosque is still ongoing. Those convicted will be punished.

 

[Stewie]

Sameer ... You obviously didn't read bet the lines

 

[cricketindiafan]

Its funny how this thread has now been invaded by Indians, in fact mostly Hindu Indians and they are doing everything to defend the verdict.


My only point through all this mess has been this: I believe Pakistanis are up there when it comes to civil rights violations and lack of injustice but Indians through this verdict have proven they are not too far behind. Also they cannot continue to claim to be a secular state anymore because it has been proven what a majority section of a population belonging to a particular religious denomination can achieve through sheer force of majority. Simply compare the statements of the three judges (2hindus and 1 muslim) and you will see what I mean.

We are bad but you aint any better yourself!

This would not have happened in a developed/civilized country. I have personally been to Hindu temples in the USA and marvelled at the art and architecture and the devotion of people and similarly I know quite a few Hindus who frequent masjids. I guess we come to grips with this only because we are now assimilated into a civilized western culture. Had we been back in India or Pakistan, we will probably be going at each others' throats.
Thats the sad reality of it. Whatever happened in 92 in India was shameful. What happened in Pakistan in retaliation to the Ayodhya incident was equally shameful.

P.S Pakistani posters asking Indian to prove Ram is God and what not are being unfair. The only reason I asked them to furnish evidence that Ram was actually born there was to prove a point that without concrete historical evidence of his birth there, Hindus dont have a case. I did not mean to question their faith and belief because that would be too condescending of me. I apologize if I hurt any sentiment there.

Heard of the Haji Ali Dargaah or about the dargaah of Sheikh Salim Chisti at Ajmer? Millions of Hindus frequent those places. For the people living in the old Delhi area, a visit to the Jama Masjid is like a daily ritual. Likewise muslims frequent Akshardham and Iskon temples. Muslims even guard and work at a number of temples in Varanasi, Mathura etc. At the Vaishno Devi temple in Katra in J&K, 70% of the shopkeepers selling the flowers and other offerings to the goddess are muslims. For the Amarnath pilgrimage, 90 % of the those in the organising committee are muslims and you have hundreds of muslim volunteers helping out the Hindu on the way to the cave of Lord Amarnath.

Yes there have been some highyl unfortunate and regrettable incidents which are a blot on the secular fabric of our country. But despite that the communities have remained close knit in most of the places barring a few places where fanatcis and politicians have used the people for their own selfish purposes to create a schism between us leading to unfortunate loss of innocent lives.

 

[srh]

One thing which I dont understand is if the history cannot prove if there was a man named Ram in India, how was history able to prove that the Barbari Masjid was built on the birthplace of Ram? This looks so absurd. Looks to me that faith has compromise the historical facts.

 

[Yanky Panky]

Question: Per Hinduism, around when was Lord Ram born?

 

[dps2009]

http://www.jafariyanews.com/2k5_news/april/12hindusazadari_orissa.htm

hindus and muslims have by and large co existed peacefully in india yes, barring the flare ups that occur every so often. hope we can minimise these incidents in the future . also , there are people who discriminate against muslims, that has to go if we are to advance truly into the 21's century. this has to involve a change in deep seated misconceptions about muslims, i am hopeful that with more education this will change. muslims also need to increase their level of education and get out of the ghetto mentality. its a long process but lets hope the leaders of the nation can get us there.

 

[ozymandias]

One thing which I dont understand is if the history cannot prove if there was a man named Ram in India, how was history able to prove that the Barbari Masjid was built on the birthplace of Ram? This looks so absurd. Looks to me that faith has compromise the historical facts.

Ayodhya is mentioned as the birth place of Ram in the Ramayana. Although there aint evidence (afaik) to suggest that Ram was born at the exact place where the mosque stands now, ASI has proved that there was a large temple which was destroyed and over which the mosque has been built.

 

[ozymandias]

Question: Per Hinduism, around when was Lord Ram born?

As per Hinduism, Time is cyclical.

 

[Stewie]

to my Hindu friends:

I understand your point. I think in a progressive human society of this modern age, you would think we would have moved on from our differences of the last century and developed better relations. But like you guys have mostly admitted, some political/religious fanatics always add fuel to the dying fire and to keep it burning for their own purposes.

Its unfortunate, you admit it, I get it.

But by the same token, how is it that something of this magnitude was allowed to go ahead get done in the first place? If this is a major issue for the government which they obviously know about, wouldnt they have taken appropriate measures to ensure security and not allowed it to happen. and then to top it all, a judgment that justifies their action by giving them 2/3rd of the land?

I am not even debating whether they deserve it or not. Obviously they could not wait long enough to let justice take its course so that argument will probably never take place.


In the USA, blacks were discriminated against worse than Indians and Pakistanis can ever even imagine. But they turned it around, gave them equal rights and ever since then, other than the LA riots, I cant think of anything major that has come up to harm blacks/white relations at least on the outside. If anything the US poicies are extra sensitive and careufl when it comes to colored people now. They are literally allowed to get away with murder (OJ Simpson).
I am not saying thats right either but at least the official policies are that of caution and sensitivity towards the minority. Something like Ayodhya will never happen in the USA.

Lets look at the Ground Zero mosque situation. not a perfect analogy but close in spirit and the President himself argued that the citizens have every right to build a mosque there if they own the land.

Of course India cannot expect to be at the same level at the USA even though they claim to be. Pakistan is of course much worse. I am not even sure we can ever get to a point where we can see beyond race, color, gender, religion, ethnicity etc and give due importance to human and civil rights.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

A few points

1) For those who are going on about hindu mosques apparently being demolished in pakistan, there is a famous quote probably based on one of newton's laws- 'for every action there is a reaction'

2) To those saying muslims have not protested, there is heavy security and most hindu/ muslim riots in india are instigated by politicians who have youth muslim/ hindu leaders in their back pockets.

3. Proving the existence of mohammed (pbuh) is quite easy, look at your history books, i don't see ram in any history books.

4. If the argument for destroying the mosque was that aurangzeb had demolished hindu/ sikh temples , it contradicts indian's notion ot itself as being secular snd muslim friendly.

 

[cricketindiafan]

to my Hindu friends:

I understand your point. I think in a progressive human society of this modern age, you would think we would have moved on from our differences of the last century and developed better relations. But like you guys have mostly admitted, some political/religious fanatics always add fuel to the dying fire and to keep it burning for their own purposes.

Its unfortunate, you admit it, I get it.

But by the same token, how is it that something of this magnitude was allowed to go ahead get done in the first place? If this is a major issue for the government which they obviously know about, wouldnt they have taken appropriate measures to ensure security and not allowed it to happen. and then to top it all, a judgment that justifies their action by giving them 2/3rd of the land?

I am not even debating whether they deserve it or not. Obviously they could not wait long enough to let justice take its course so that argument will probably never take place.


In the USA, blacks were discriminated against worse than Indians and Pakistanis can ever even imagine. But they turned it around, gave them equal rights and ever since then, other than the LA riots, I cant think of anything major that has come up to harm blacks/white relations at least on the outside. If anything the US poicies are extra sensitive and careufl when it comes to colored people now. They are literally allowed to get away with murder (OJ Simpson).
I am not saying thats right either but at least the official policies are that of caution and sensitivity towards the minority. Something like Ayodhya will never happen in the USA.

Lets look at the Ground Zero mosque situation. not a perfect analogy but close in spirit and the President himself argued that the citizens have every right to build a mosque there if they own the land.

Of course India cannot expect to be at the same level at the USA even though they claim to be. Pakistan is of course much worse. I am not even sure we can ever get to a point where we can see beyond race, color, gender, religion, ethnicity etc and give due importance to human and civil rights.

Be optimistic. The younger generation everywhere is far more mature than the previous generation.

Youth of today demand good education, jobs, development and not any bloodshed. Hope is not yet lost.

Yes there still are looneys in the society but gradually they will get sidelined gradually.

 

[jusarrived]

A few points

1) For those who are going on about hindu mosques apparently being demolished in pakistan, there is a famous quote probably based on one of newton's laws- 'for every action there is a reaction'

2) To those saying muslims have not protested, there is heavy security and most hindu/ muslim riots in india are instigated by politicians who have youth muslim/ hindu leaders in their back pockets.

3. Proving the existence of mohammed (pbuh) is quite easy, look at your history books, i don't see ram in any history books.

4. If the argument for destroying the mosque was that aurangzeb had demolished hindu/ sikh temples , it contradicts indian's notion ot itself as being secular snd muslim friendly.

that simple inst it ? not that I care ..but some of you are just cold blooded when it comes to non-Muslims & really have to admire the audacity to still come out and preach others .

 

[Stewie]

Yeah I dont agree with that philospohy either.

The hindus that were affected were Pakistani citizens and we should not stoop to the standards of Indians in a *** for tat approach. I detest this Pakistani mentality.


Personal note: I cant say ***??!! what the heck

 

[dps2009]

1) For those who are going on about hindu mosques apparently being demolished in pakistan, there is a famous quote probably based on one of newton's laws- 'for every action there is a reaction'

, sure , that justifies Bush bombing afganistan out of existence for 9/11 ..

 

[moumotta]

A few points

1) For those who are going on about hindu mosques apparently being demolished in pakistan, there is a famous quote probably based on one of newton's laws- 'for every action there is a reaction'

2) To those saying muslims have not protested, there is heavy security and most hindu/ muslim riots in india are instigated by politicians who have youth muslim/ hindu leaders in their back pockets.

3. Proving the existence of mohammed (pbuh) is quite easy, look at your history books, i don't see ram in any history books.

4. If the argument for destroying the mosque was that aurangzeb had demolished hindu/ sikh temples , it contradicts indian's notion ot itself as being secular snd muslim friendly.

1) well, then you are as bad as us. Stop preaching and complaining about it then.

2) protest over a legal judgement? You can't go to court and then say I will accept it only if it goes entirely my way. In any case it is our problem so please don't bother yourself too much with that every action- reaction approach.

4) no one has made that argument as far as I can see.

 

[KingKhanWC]

sikhism developed as a militarized offshoot of hinduism as a reaction to mughal rule, they are no friends of muslims if that is what you think.

and sikhism is a distince religion in india in practise, they certainly have no problems with being classified as hindus, why do you?


its even worse, a muslim army is killing muslims in pak

I suggest you let Sikhs answer for themselves. They don't see themselves as an offshoot of anything. They shouldn't be recognised as a Hindu sect but as followers of the religion of Sikhism.

Sikhism is a completely different religion than Hinduism and Islam. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib, it is well stated that Sikhism is a separate religion rather than a sect or movement of Hinduism or Islam. This was well said by Ten Gurus too.

http://www.searchsikhism.com/index.html

As for Muslims killing Muslims in Pakistan, this is a new recent phenomenon because of the invasion of Afghanistan and something which is temporary. India has had rebels militants attacking it since it's independence. The Indian army has been attacked and defeated many times. Only recently 75 Indian soldiers were killed in one battle.

Babri Mosque was demolished by criminals and there is a court proceeding going against those cirminals. Hopefully justice will be delivered and the idiots will get the punsihment they deserve. At the same time, how many of those invovled in razing these 200 temples have been brought to book so far? Was there ever a court case against any of the perpetrators of the crime of razing temples or a clamour for restoring some of those razed temples?

The Masjid was demolished by Hindu extremist militants, not by mere criminals. Let's call a spade a spade.

Retaliation in Pakistan was only expected but those temples have not been given away unlike the Barbri Majsid complex. This is the crux of it. A mosque was attacked by extremists and now they have been rewarded by gaining majority ownership rights. It's totally absurd but not suprising in India.

These Hindu's are not Hare Krishna who sit around chanting and getting high, they are hardcore facist extremists who have a lot of influence and power in India.

India is a nation of apartheid due to caste system. Hindu's don't even sit with other Hindu's because they see them as untouchables. So it's not suprising other minority religions don't trust living under Hindu rule.

Sadly you will see further violence when these extremists look for new sites which they believe belonged to their 'God' and then go about trying to reclaim them.

 

[The WagonWheel]

^^ Yawn !

 

[srh]

Even if hindus destroyed a masjid, Islam does not allow muslims to destroy a temple in retaliation. If temples are destroyed by muslims in Pakistan, they should be rebuild by muslims in Pakistan and muslims should ask for forgiveness from hindus (of Pakistan particularly).

Also muslims of Pakistan should not put any condition that they will do it only if hindus do the same in India for muslims. It should be unequivocal; no strings attached.

 

[dps2009]

India is a nation of apartheid due to caste system. Hindu's don't even sit with other Hindu's because they see them as untouchables. So it's not suprising other minority religions don't trust living under Hindu rule.

india is a secular "democracy" , not a monarchy or theocracy ,and no one is living under "hindu rule" .

i would much rather be part of a muslim minority in india than a muslim majority in pak.

 

[KingKhanWC]

india is a secular "democracy" , not a monarchy or theocracy ,and no one is living under "hindu rule" .

i would much rather be part of a muslim minority in india than a muslim majority in pak.

)

A true secular democracy would not reward Hindu extremists by giving them the majority ownership of a mosque they attacked.

If you were a worshipper at that mosque, I doubt you would be saying you prefer living in India than Pakistan after what has happened.

 

[siddharth]

, sure , that justifies Bush bombing afganistan out of existence for 9/11 ..

And Israel atriocities against palastene.Heck even Gujrat riot can be labled as one as a reaction of Godhra incident.Strange mentality.

And oh yes Babar demolished Ram mandir and as a reaction hindus demolished Masjid.Now that makes it even or what?

 

[siddharth]

)

A true secular democracy would not reward Hindu extremists by giving them the majority ownership of a mosque they attacked.

If you were a worshipper at that mosque, I doubt you would be saying you prefer living in India than Pakistan after what has happened.

But majority of Indian muslims consider it as a special case and accepted the verdict and respecting the faith and emotional attachment of Hindus to that place.A little bit of sensitiveness would help in this case.It is not about ''ego'',just respect for a belief,thats all.

 

[dps2009]

But majority of Indian muslims consider it as a special case and accepted the verdict and respecting the faith and emotional attachment of Hindus to that place.A little bit of sensitiveness would help in this case.It is not about ''ego'',just respect for a belief,thats all.

exactly, i hope the idiots now don't go about demanding all masjids built on temples be restored. this HAS to be treated as a one off .

 

[siddharth]

exactly, i hope the idiots now don't go about demanding all masjids built on temples be restored. this HAS to be treated as a one off .

If they ever try to do such a thing,don't think they would get support for any Indians for that.We have enough of this one case.

 

[srh]

But majority of Indian muslims consider it as a special case and accepted the verdict and respecting the faith and emotional attachment of Hindus to that place.A little bit of sensitiveness would help in this case.It is not about ''ego'',just respect for a belief,thats all.

Not true.

Most Muslims seemed particularly upset that the judges, instead of delivering a verdict based on evidence, chose to accept 'faith' as the basis of their pronouncement.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ermons-call-for-calm-/articleshow/6667975.cms

 

[siddharth]

Not true.

Most Muslims seemed particularly upset that the judges, instead of delivering a verdict based on evidence, chose to accept 'faith' as the basis of their pronouncement.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ermons-call-for-calm-/articleshow/6667975.cms

Ofocurse there are muslims who don't accept the verdict,but how do you claim that those are in majority.

heck there are hindus who are not willing to accept the verdict too.But in my opinion those constitue a very small percentage.Many people mostly younger generation want to move on.Thats what I meant.

 

[dps2009]

Not true.

Most Muslims seemed particularly upset that the judges, instead of delivering a verdict based on evidence, chose to accept 'faith' as the basis of their pronouncement.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ermons-call-for-calm-/articleshow/6667975.cms

i will take the dissatisfaction of the imams and the muezzins, you don't expect them to be ecstatic, infact 10 years ago, there would have been riots over this. this judgement was a compromise based on what would be the least disasterous route to take on a sensitive issue and a compromise was the need of the hour.

i bet if you polled the hindu mahasabha members over this verdict they are not satisfied too.

 

[Crazy_K]

Not true.

Most Muslims seemed particularly upset that the judges, instead of delivering a verdict based on evidence, chose to accept 'faith' as the basis of their pronouncement.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ermons-call-for-calm-/articleshow/6667975.cms

Someone needs to decide once and for all whether TOI is a credible source, you can't accept and reject it at will to suit your argument

 

[chacha kashmiri]

1) well, then you are as bad as us. Stop preaching and complaining about it then.

2) protest over a legal judgement? You can't go to court and then say I will accept it only if it goes entirely my way. In any case it is our problem so please don't bother yourself too much with that every action- reaction approach.

4) no one has made that argument as far as I can see.

1)If someone comes to your house burns it down and burns your wife and children alive there's bound to be some kind of retaliation.
The problem is with the people who cause the initial furore and seeing as it's a you and us, that means you.


2) The fact it's taken so long to be addressed by the court and that there was a bias towards hindus on the judge panel speaks volumes about the entire case.


No indian has answered my other question yet, why cannot indian occupied kashmir be divided in the same way?

 

[dps2009]

1)If someone comes to your house burns it down and burns your wife and children alive there's bound to be some kind of retaliation.

and you retaliate by burning down the wife and children of the next 200 people you see of the other religion? and what's your answer to bush bombing the hell out of afganistan and iraq as retaliation for 9/11 ?

the kashmir thread should be bumped if you want to discuss the kashmir issue further.

 

[Rayaan]

The leaders of the muslim intelligentsia in India have themselves declared that Indian Muslims are second class citizens


A Mosque was attacked and destroyed based a on a very very dodgy claim of right, 20 years later the people who attacked and destroyed the mosque get the majority of it awarded to them by a hindu majority court.


Now that is Bull S*** in every sense of the term


The hindus cannot complain if temples are destroyed as they have also attacked and destroyed the babri masjid.

Indian Muslims are correct to feel sore about this as any muslim would, they are correct to challenge this in court and keep it going for years and years if needs be, ultimately by hook or by crook the temple must be stopped,

You must give your enemy consequences for there actions the hindus cant be allowed to attack and destroy a mosque then have BS kangaroo court award them for there actions

This is a slap in the face of every Indian muslim, they have been humiliated and disgraced by this verdict, tommorw the hindus will pick another mosque and then another

What then

 

[dps2009]

The leaders of the muslim intelligentsia in India have themselves declared that Indian Muslims are second class citizens


A Mosque was attacked and destroyed based a on a very very dodgy claim of right, 20 years later the people who attacked and destroyed the mosque get the majority of it awarded to them by a hindu majority court.


Now that is Bull S*** in every sense of the term


The hindus cannot complain if temples are destroyed as they have also attacked and destroyed the babri masjid.

Indian Muslims are correct to feel sore about this as any muslim would, they are correct to challenge this in court and keep it going for years and years if needs be, ultimately by hook or by crook the temple must be stopped,

You must give your enemy consequences for there actions the hindus cant be allowed to attack and destroy a mosque then have BS kangaroo court award them for there actions

This is a slap in the face of every Indian muslim, they have been humiliated and disgraced by this verdict, tommorw the hindus will pick another mosque and then another

What then

were you actually foaming at the mouth when you were typing this?

let me break this down for you

WE DON"T CARE, vast majority of indians are satisfied by the judgement of the court- except for the fundamentalist hindus and muslims ( and some pakistanis . Thankfully these people are a minority albiet a very shrill vocal and annoying minority.

You should seriously worry more about the humiliation and degradation your bretheren in pakistan are being subjected to by the americans and by islamic terrorists of all types. Leave the indian muslims alone, they don't need your false sense of outrage and humiliation, thank you very much.

and again i would rather be 2nd class citizen in india( according to you) than first class citizen in pak. how about them apples?

 

[moumotta]

1)If someone comes to your house burns it down and burns your wife and children alive there's bound to be some kind of retaliation.
The problem is with the people who cause the initial furore and seeing as it's a you and us, that means you.

That analogy will justify everything after the' original sin' on that piece of land.

BTW my You and Us was on nationalistic lines. You would obviously interpret it according to the only view of the world you ever had.

2) The fact it's taken so long to be addressed by the court and that there was a bias towards hindus on the judge panel speaks volumes about the entire case.

I will suggest the supreme court to invite some of your legal luminaries to set the balance right when the appeal is heard

No indian has answered my other question yet, why cannot indian occupied kashmir be divided in the same way?

Might be a practical way forward. Will you have the case heard in Allahabad.

 

[Rayaan]

Of course Indian Muslims care about this and are sore about this, the hindus are rightly ecstatic

They attacked a mosque and they got away with it, they came out so good they got the majority of the mosque they attacked awarded to them by a friggin court. They must be over the moon and dancing a little jig

Tomorrow they will attack another mosque and then another mosque

and why not

They have just been rewarded for attacking a mosque so why shouldnt they continue. Muslims in India must put a stop to it and the legal route is legitimate but ultimately they must stop the temple which ever way possible, otherwise they will just be increasingly targeted.

 

[dps2009]

Of course Indian Muslims care about this and are sore about this, the hindus are rightly ecstatic

They attacked a mosque and they got away with it, they came out so good they got the majority of the mosque they attacked awarded to them by a friggin court. They must be over the moon and dancing a little jig

Tomorrow they will attack another mosque and then another mosque

and why not

They have just been rewarded for attacking a mosque so why shouldnt they continue. Muslims in India must put a stop to it and the legal route is legitimate but ultimately they must stop the temple which ever way possible, otherwise they will just be increasingly targeted.

you sound like a broken record now, tape change karna padega mamu.

 

[Rayaan]

You got no answer, matey..

You know in your heart that the hindus have been awarded for attacking a mosque based on a worthless dodgy excuse

You must realise also that they will start attacking other mosques, maybe muslim homes, may you, maybe your mother or sister.



If the court award them for attacking muslim holy places then why wouldnt they attack more muslim holy places.

 

[moumotta]

You got no answer, matey..

You know in your heart that the hindus have been awarded for attacking a mosque based on a worthless dodgy excuse

You must realise also that they will start attacking other mosques, maybe muslim homes, may you, maybe your mother or sister.



If the court award them for attacking muslim holy places then why wouldnt they attack more muslim holy places.

Wake up Sid. Subah ho gai. School jana hai.

 

[Rayaan]

Your a hindu arent you..

You must be ecstatic about this, you can out up pagan idols all across a mosque and worship them and its legitimised by your court system

 

[dps2009]

Never Argue With A Fool – They Will Drag You Down To Their Level, Then Beat You With Experience!


great siggy there

 

[moumotta]

Your a hindu arent you..

You must be ecstatic about this, you can out up pagan idols all across a mosque and worship them and its legitimised by your court system

For me all Gods are the same, assumptions.

Anyways, thanks for asking.

 

[Dondulkar]

Just make a sports stadium on the site..

 

[hasanb]

Just make a sports stadium on the site..

lol for once I actually agree with Dondulkar

 

[pal]

I think it's important to be clear about the fact that there are two different ongoing cases regarding the mosque and its demolition.

The one that was just decided essentially began in the late forties and early fifties. It had to do with the legitimacy of four title suits that were filed by different organizations starting in '49 or '51, I believe. It should also be noted that one of the organizations involved in the case first brought it to court in 1885, although that was during the Raj obviously. This case has a 125-year legal history and has nothing whatsoever to do with the events in 1992. They're related only to the extent that the BJP and other organizations stoked the frustrations of the general public over the more than half-century of judicial inaction on the case for political gain.

The other, more recent, case does stem from the demolition of the mosque in 1992. It involves the people who were responsible for its destruction, and some of the politicians who instigated it. God only knows how long this case will take to work through the court considering the infamous pace of the judicial process in India, but we can only hope that justice will be served.

Still, we can't confuse the two cases. It's important to recognize that this controversy did not begin in 1992. This has been a longstanding dispute for almost 300 to 400 years. As I stated earlier, one of the pieces of evidence that was part of the trial were the writings of a Jesuit missionary named Joseph Tiefenthaler, from 1740, who noted that the Hindus believed the mosque had been constructed over the birthplace of Lord Ram. There was a riot over the issue in 1853 which forced the British to intervene, and as I noted above, the first case over it was filed soon after in 1885.

This has been brewing for a long, long time. It's a unique situation, and there's nothing like it with respect to any other mosque. Don't expect cases to pop up about other mosques, and if it happens, don't expect any action for about 100-200 more years.

 

[Garuda]

Wow, it looks like only ppl who are irritated with the verdict are here. Most of the muslim organizations in India are either happy with the verdict or they want to move to supreme court by respecting the high court verdict.

Even Few youth muslim organizations have even suggested to give the entire land for hindu temple and take a new land to re-build the mosque. I wish even Hindus could give that offer too. I know it may not happen but atleast commandable thinking from young muslims.

(more details refer today's TOI)


Personally, I am waiting for Hindus to offer their help in building the Masjid as some looney's from us had done the damage.

 

[Dondulkar]

lol for once I actually agree with Dondulkar

 

[USaqaf]

Dear, is not ancient India the home of Budhists and Hindu Kings later converted them to Hinduism?

.

Wrong, Hinduism is OLDER than Buddhism and the latter started out as an offshoot of the former.

 

[GLORY OF '92]

It just shows how scared and controlled the Muslims in India are. A Mosque is destroyed and a court basically awards the criminals and yet there is no real outcry.

 

[the SHA]

Talk about bad timing for announcing a verdict, just before the Indian Commonwealth Games.

I suppose it can only be a coincidence, or a planning oversight...

 

[ozymandias]

It just shows how scared and controlled the Muslims in India are. A Mosque is destroyed and a court basically awards the criminals and yet there is no real outcry.

For the nth time in this thread itself, they are two separate cases.

 

[s2k]

Your a hindu arent you..

You must be ecstatic about this, you can out up pagan idols all across a mosque and worship them and its legitimised by your court system

So babar or Mir baqi was right to demolish the temple?