Berlin to allow all swimmers to go topless at public pools after equality row

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City authorities ‘welcome’ the decision ‘because it establishes equal rights for all Berliners’

All swimmers at public pools in Berlin will be permitted to swim topless, city officials have confirmed.

The new ruling comes after a woman took legal action in response to being ejected from an open-air pool in the German capital for sunbathing topless.

The woman, whose identity was not revealed, turned to the senate’s ombudsperson’s office for equal treatment to argue that women should be permitted to go topless should they choose.


Authorities agreed they had been victims of discrimination and said that all visitors to Berlin's pools are now entitled to go topless.

As a consequence of the complaint, the Berliner Baederbetriebe, which runs the city's public pools, changed its clothing rules accordingly.

https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...ess-swimming-pools-equality-law-b2297959.html


European liberals again. :)))

Take your kids to the swimming pool , tell them to close their eyes and swim otherwise they will see topless women.
 
Mentally sick people.

The more naked you get, the more liberal and progressive you are.

I am sure most of them like to be called “they/them”.
 
Mentally sick people.

The more naked you get, the more liberal and progressive you are.

I am sure most of them like to be called “they/them”.

They claim gender equality , if men can have tops off, so should women. lol.

It wont be too long before women are walking around topless in the streets because some men do.
 
Ridiculous.

Humans should behave like humans. Not animals.

You remind me of this amazing verse. Monkeys walk around naked. No society in history has come close to the Europeans when it comes to public nudity. The same Europe which forced a woman on a beach to remove clothes!

Verse (5:60)

"Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road."
 
There are tribes in Africa and South America where tribes roam around without any top. Do you guys consider them shameless and mentally ill?

There are already beaches in US where clothing is optional. Allowing people naked at all beaches may not be suitable for the religious sentiments of some folks including me. A nice 2 piece swim costume would be enough.

Ultra liberals are as moronic as hardcore rightwingies.
 
You remind me of this amazing verse. Monkeys walk around naked. No society in history has come close to the Europeans when it comes to public nudity. The same Europe which forced a woman on a beach to remove clothes!

Verse (5:60)

"Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road."

Racist. Hope Mods delete this.
 
Racist. Hope Mods delete this.

RSS supporter calling other racist :))

Monkeys or apes do not wear clothes. This verse is pointing to such people not calling them monkeys or apes literally.

From your very defensive posts, I assume you are happy to see females topless in a public swimming pool? Wonder why,
 
There are tribes in Africa and South America where tribes roam around without any top. Do you guys consider them shameless and mentally ill?

There are already beaches in US where clothing is optional. Allowing people naked at all beaches may not be suitable for the religious sentiments of some folks including me. A nice 2 piece swim costume would be enough.

Ultra liberals are as moronic as hardcore rightwingies.

There are many nudist beaches in Europe too.

As for some tribes in Africa, they should too cover their women but unlike Europe they have been living like this since day 1. Here we are now seeing liberal madness where women are demanding the same rights as men. The African tribal women dont.
 
RSS supporter calling other racist :))

Monkeys or apes do not wear clothes. This verse is pointing to such people not calling them monkeys or apes literally.

From your very defensive posts, I assume you are happy to see females topless in a public swimming pool? Wonder why,

It is not up to me to tell a woman what to wear. I can only tell my family. Not others. If they want to go topless, it is their choice.

Now I am not pro-topless. But your types don't even let women wear pants and shirts or skirts in public.

As I have said, far left liberals are as dangerous as far right fundoos.
 
It is not up to me to tell a woman what to wear. I can only tell my family. Not others. If they want to go topless, it is their choice.

Now I am not pro-topless. But your types don't even let women wear pants and shirts or skirts in public.

As I have said, far left liberals are as dangerous as far right fundoos.

My types? :)) Yet you calling others racists? Your types in India treat women like dirt, raping on buses, putting kids into prostitution, the list goes on pal.

India is the most dangerous place for a women, but thats ok for you.

You would allow your Mrs to go topless in a public swimming pool?
 
There are many nudist beaches in Europe too.

As for some tribes in Africa, they should too cover their women but unlike Europe they have been living like this since day 1. Here we are now seeing liberal madness where women are demanding the same rights as men. The African tribal women dont.

No one should decide what someone wants to wear. You may differ from their dress style or lack of it. But no one can tell unrelated women what to wear. You can turn your face the other way if you don't like it.

If women are to be stopped from going topless, then some men too must be forced to put on a bra when they are at the beach.
 
My types? :)) Yet you calling others racists? Your types in India treat women like dirt, raping on buses, putting kids into prostitution, the list goes on pal.

India is the most dangerous place for a women, but thats ok for you.

You would allow your Mrs to go topless in a public swimming pool?

Ok, people who share your thoughts. Happy now?

I never said I am pro-topless. But my wife wears a 2 piece whenever we are at the beach. I have absolutely no problem with it.

Would you let your wife wear what my wife wears at the beach or at the pool?
 
European liberals at their finest!

Burkinis banned in France, topless goes legal in Germany.

No equality, even among women in Europe!

They have no shame. In the UK we have indecency laws, doesn't seem like Germany does.

This extreme liberalism is contradictory and confusing for themselves too. Ie. In Holland and Spain incest is legal but siblings cant marry lol.
 
Ok, people who share your thoughts. Happy now?

I never said I am pro-topless. But my wife wears a 2 piece whenever we are at the beach. I have absolutely no problem with it.

Would you let your wife wear what my wife wears at the beach or at the pool?

Not my thoughts, people with your thoughts are a plenty in India. Dont throw stones when you come from a glass house, Indians are the last to accuse others of treating women badly.

I wouldnt be with a woman who goes topless, their choice and my choice too.

How would you feel if you witnessed other men ogling at your wife when she is topless?
 
Not my thoughts, people with your thoughts are a plenty in India. Dont throw stones when you come from a glass house, Indians are the last to accuse others of treating women badly.

I wouldnt be with a woman who goes topless, their choice and my choice too.

How would you feel if you witnessed other men ogling at your wife when she is topless?

I am talking about people who share your thoughts. You are accusing an entire nation of mysogyny. Way to go.

I would not be with a woman too who goes topless. But I would not call who do that as monkeys. Its their choice.

People who ogle at woman when they are the beach are the typical sex starved men who come from ultra conservative background. No woman would approach such men and treat them as creeps.
 
They have no shame. In the UK we have indecency laws, doesn't seem like Germany does.

This extreme liberalism is contradictory and confusing for themselves too. Ie. In Holland and Spain incest is legal but siblings cant marry lol.

Europe has been a cesspit throughout history, and for good reason. They've managed to stall their decline post WW2, but the decline has recommenced.

Plus, the males in this thread defending the OP are exactly the type who will ogle at other topless women.
 
I am talking about people who share your thoughts. You are accusing an entire nation of mysogyny. Way to go.

I would not be with a woman too who goes topless. But I would not call who do that as monkeys. Its their choice.

People who ogle at woman when they are the beach are the typical sex starved men who come from ultra conservative background. No woman would approach such men and treat them as creeps.

Im not accusing anyone of anything lol. Its an observation (no pun indented) on how European society is evolving. Apes/monkeys do not wear clothes, try visiting a Zoo. Its idiotic to consider this racist as its not referring to any colour of skin but behaviour in one form.

Thanks for admitting you find it shameless for a woman to go topless as you wouldnt be with such a woman, so you're no different. Also thanks for confirming India's conservative nature is the factor making it the most dangerous place for women on the planet. Keep the posts coming. :)
 
Europe has been a cesspit throughout history, and for good reason. They've managed to stall their decline post WW2, but the decline has recommenced.

Plus, the males in this thread defending the OP are exactly the type who will ogle at other topless women.

I fully agree. Those who claim to uphold rights of women to be topless or naked, are the ones who enjoy such views. But instead of speaking the truth, they claim to be more advanced when its actually backward.
 
Im not accusing anyone of anything lol. Its an observation (no pun indented) on how European society is evolving. Apes/monkeys do not wear clothes, try visiting a Zoo. Its idiotic to consider this racist as its not referring to any colour of skin but behaviour in one form.

Thanks for admitting you find it shameless for a woman to go topless as you wouldnt be with such a woman, so you're no different. Also thanks for confirming India's conservative nature is the factor making it the most dangerous place for women on the planet. Keep the posts coming. :)

Live and let live.
 
There are tribes in Africa and South America where tribes roam around without any top. Do you guys consider them shameless and mentally ill?

There are already beaches in US where clothing is optional. Allowing people naked at all beaches may not be suitable for the religious sentiments of some folks including me. A nice 2 piece swim costume would be enough.

Ultra liberals are as moronic as hardcore rightwingies.

Tribes don't know any better. They are isolated. They have an excuse of not knowing.

These radical liberals should know better.
 
It's only insecure men who always have issues with what a women should wear to not. They are not forcing you to go topless. You are free to go to the beach in whatever you please. I live my summers in Spain and nude beaches are very common. Nobody gives a damn or gives a second look and there is surely no staring. That usually happens if you come from a repressed society . Now I dont care for nude beaches. I just dont get the point. But to each his own. Live and let live. Also to a poster who keeps on dissing India for treatment of women ( India is terrible) should remember pakistan , his beloved homeland is even worse. Live and let live. It's really simple.
 
Tribes don't know any better. They are isolated. They have an excuse of not knowing.

These radical liberals should know better.

Are you still crying about the damn liberals. You never got back to me about Hamas and Iran from the other thread. You always disappear. Also tribes are no longer isolated, What plant do you live on. Other than 1-2 tribes in SA and one in India nobody is isolated . Especially in Africa where people run around naked. Vulgarity is in the eyes of the beholder. Personal example that I have seen with my own eyes would be to walk with a foreign women in the bazars of Peshawar and in the old town of Cairo. Never seen more vulgar , thurki ( Urdu word) men in my life.
 
It's only insecure men who always have issues with what a women should wear to not. They are not forcing you to go topless. You are free to go to the beach in whatever you please. I live my summers in Spain and nude beaches are very common. Nobody gives a damn or gives a second look and there is surely no staring. That usually happens if you come from a repressed society . Now I dont care for nude beaches. I just dont get the point. But to each his own. Live and let live. Also to a poster who keeps on dissing India for treatment of women ( India is terrible) should remember pakistan , his beloved homeland is even worse. Live and let live. It's really simple.

The story is related to public swimming pools not beaches. :)) Please read before commenting.

So according to you, children must endure seeing women topless if they go to the local pool because it suits your liberal backward ideology? What do you think of women who would go topless in a public swimming pool? Would you be ok if any female relative did this? Again read carefully, pool not beach.
 
Just to give an example. Few years ago some woman challenged the courts here in NYC about going topless in the streets. You won in court. She lives in the village, same as me. So I alway see her ( summers only) 4-5 times a year walking around topless. Does it make any sense to men. NO. Do I or anyone cares. NO. Do people stare at her?? A lot less than a full clothed women in the bazars of Peshawar in my experience.
 
Are you still crying about the damn liberals. You never got back to me about Hamas and Iran from the other thread. You always disappear. Also tribes are no longer isolated, What plant do you live on. Other than 1-2 tribes in SA and one in India nobody is isolated . Especially in Africa where people run around naked. Vulgarity is in the eyes of the beholder. Personal example that I have seen with my own eyes would be to walk with a foreign women in the bazars of Peshawar and in the old town of Cairo. Never seen more vulgar , thurki ( Urdu word) men in my life.

We are humans. Not animals. Nudism has no place in a civilized society. Humans are expected to wear clothes. This is year 2023.

Those tribes have limited to no exposures. You surely can't compare them to idiotic radical liberals.

Hamas and Iran? You went off-topic. So, I didn't respond to avoid derailing the thread.
 
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Dont run now please, as you need to clarify your position. What is your personal view of women who go topless?

I have mentioned my position already a couple of times. I personally would not let my family women go topless. At least not when overwhelming majority of people are not into it. But I would not call names and abuse women who do that. It is not my family and I am no one to judge peoples clothing choices.

You never answered my question. Would you allow your family women to wear 2 piece at the pool or the beach? It is quite common in the west and not considered immoral. Women do not get abused in the west for wearing a bikini at the beach. Now, would you allow that?
 
We are humans. Not animals. Nudism has no place in a civilized society. Humans are expected to wear clothes. This is year 2023.

Those tribes have limited to no exposures. You surely can't compare them to idiotic radical liberals.

Hamas and Iran? You went off-topic. So, I didn't respond to avoid derailing the thread.

I have the same question to you also. Nudism may be too much at this point of time. Would a bikini be okay with you?
 
We are humans. Not animals. Nudism has no place in a civilized society. Humans are expected to wear clothes. This is year 2023.

Those tribes have limited to no exposures. You surely can't compare them to idiotic radical liberals.

Hamas and Iran? You went off-topic. So, I didn't respond to avoid derailing the thread.

Most liberal supporters in general have no clue but jump on the bandwagon to defend what they foolisly believe is some sort of superiour ideology.

Tribes dont have an issue where women are attacked or ogled at because they are all related and its normal for them. There are tribes which cover up more now than before. Its apples and oranges.
 
We are humans. Not animals. Nudism has no place in a civilized society. Humans are expected to wear clothes. This is year 2023.

Those tribes have limited to no exposures. You surely can't compare them to idiotic radical liberals.

Hamas and Iran? You went off-topic. So, I didn't respond to avoid derailing the thread.

The only people I have seen behave like animals to fully clothed women are in Peshawar and old town cairo. Never seen such behavior
 
I have mentioned my position already a couple of times. I personally would not let my family women go topless. At least not when overwhelming majority of people are not into it. But I would not call names and abuse women who do that. It is not my family and I am no one to judge peoples clothing choices.

You never answered my question. Would you allow your family women to wear 2 piece at the pool or the beach? It is quite common in the west and not considered immoral. Women do not get abused in the west for wearing a bikini at the beach. Now, would you allow that?

Pretty dumb question when you know Im a Muslim and so is my family. They choose not to show such nudity, not because I tell them.

Now you write you WOULD NOT LET family women go topless. Now you're admitting you will control what they wear or do not wear. How would you control them if they refuse?

Im not judging either, I simply wouldnt go to swimming pools if this was taking place but this would mean myself and the public would maybe need to stop using public pools if this becomes common(if I was in Germany).

Im not asking you to judge but if you are willing to control your family, surely you will also have a view on other women. What do you find wrong with it?
 
The only people I have seen behave like animals to fully clothed women are in Peshawar and old town cairo. Never seen such behavior

I doubt they wanted to eat you. This is more of your personal issues with your personal extreme mindset and hatred of certain people and faith.

You missed my post.

So according to you, children must endure seeing women topless if they go to the local pool because it suits your liberal backward ideology? What do you think of women who would go topless in a public swimming pool? Would you be ok if any female relative did this? Again read carefully, pool not beach.
 
I have the same question to you also. Nudism may be too much at this point of time. Would a bikini be okay with you?

We humans should dress like humans and behave like humans. Bikini shouldn't be a thing in a civilized society. I hope one day society will be classy again (just like good old days).

Being nude in public should result in being admitted to mental hospital. There is something wrong in the brain surely.
 
Bikini shouldn't be a thing in a civilized society. I hope one day society will be classy again (just like good old days).
.

What about women wearing shorts or sleeveless shirt ? Is that acceptable to you.
 
I doubt they wanted to eat you. This is more of your personal issues with your personal extreme mindset and hatred of certain people and faith.

You missed my post.

So according to you, children must endure seeing women topless if they go to the local pool because it suits your liberal backward ideology? What do you think of women who would go topless in a public swimming pool? Would you be ok if any female relative did this? Again read carefully, pool not beach.

The foundation of facist Liberalism begins with brainwashing children.

The 2 users who are opposing your view do not have an opinion on the OP, they are just interested in settling scores which is why 1 has bailed, and the other reads like ChatGPT.
 
Let's not go off-topic. Topic is Berlin nudism. Stick to topic.

You refuse to answer it because I know female shorts is not acceptable to you. I think you've mentioned it couple of times before. You are a hyper-prude.
 
And these immoral countries like Germany want to lecture Muslim countries on how they should conduct themselves.

For these idiotic liberals, equality = same. Men and women aren't same beings. They are two entirely different beings, but these mad liberals think that men and women are the same.
 
The foundation of facist Liberalism begins with brainwashing children.

The 2 users who are opposing your view do not have an opinion on the OP, they are just interested in settling scores which is why 1 has bailed, and the other reads like ChatGPT.

Liberals in generals struggle to critically think for themselves.

And these immoral countries like Germany want to lecture Muslim countries on how they should conduct themselves.

For these idiotic liberals, equality = same. Men and women aren't same beings. They are two entirely different beings, but these mad liberals think that men and women are the same.

This topic in Germany has a very dark history inc child abuse imo.

A chap named Adolf Koch developed something called the Free Body Culture(Freikörperkultur). Initially it started in 1900 in Germany but this chap was a P.E teacher.

There are more details on other pages but to keep it simple, this is from wiki.

Curiously, from this school transfer, it would be the first time Koch would come into contact with the Freikörperkultur (free body culture) social movement, that had existed in Berlin since shortly after 1900. Some of the parents of the school's pupils had formed a "friendship society" to do something for their body fitness in their free time; there were no formal statutes to this association. The children formed the group "Sun Land Youth Guild" (Jugendgilde Sonnenland). Koch now saw the opportunity to bring his reform gymnastics to this association. Parents and children gathered every Saturday in the youth club at Mariannenufer 1a for gymnastics. Initially, it was only a group of 10- to 13-year-old boys and girls, who together in the presence of their parents, did gymnastics nude.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Koch

The man was a peadohphile, there is no doubt.
 
Pretty dumb question when you know Im a Muslim and so is my family. They choose not to show such nudity, not because I tell them.

Now you write you WOULD NOT LET family women go topless. Now you're admitting you will control what they wear or do not wear. How would you control them if they refuse?

Im not judging either, I simply wouldnt go to swimming pools if this was taking place but this would mean myself and the public would maybe need to stop using public pools if this becomes common(if I was in Germany).

Im not asking you to judge but if you are willing to control your family, surely you will also have a view on other women. What do you find wrong with it?

You see, you would not even allow bikini for your women. It is an accepted dress in the Western world.

I tell my family to follow the culture and tradition of the west. You do not want them to grow up being awkward and feel that they do not fit in the west. I don't judge other women who decide to wear skimpy clothes.

Bottomline is, your morality is strongly dictated by the religion you follow. Like some poster said, he finds saree to be too revealing too. It is perfectly accepted in India and no one ogles at women who wears it. My view is, we cannot suffocate women based our religious views.

Just like you have a view on western women who wear revealing clothes, Westerners also have a view on women in strictly conservative societies.
 
We humans should dress like humans and behave like humans. Bikini shouldn't be a thing in a civilized society. I hope one day society will be classy again (just like good old days).

Being nude in public should result in being admitted to mental hospital. There is something wrong in the brain surely.

Judgmental much? Must suck to live in uncivilized west for you then.

Westerners also think Middle Eastern women are oppressed and their societies are regressive. Anyone who airs their opinion are called Islamophobic.
 
You see, you would not even allow bikini for your women. It is an accepted dress in the Western world.

I tell my family to follow the culture and tradition of the west. You do not want them to grow up being awkward and feel that they do not fit in the west. I don't judge other women who decide to wear skimpy clothes.

Bottomline is, your morality is strongly dictated by the religion you follow. Like some poster said, he finds saree to be too revealing too. It is perfectly accepted in India and no one ogles at women who wears it. My view is, we cannot suffocate women based our religious views.

Just like you have a view on western women who wear revealing clothes, Westerners also have a view on women in strictly conservative societies.

Man, you're slow in understanding. I dont control women, you have admitted you do. I say to a woman wear what you like , its their choice but I have a choice to be with you.

I dont tell my family anything, they have their own minds.

If I wasnt a Muslim, Id feel the same as many Non-Muslims do inc women. You are in some delusional all women in the west want to walk around naked or topless in pools.

But your last point..

"It is perfectly accepted in India and no one ogles at women who wears it"

Please :)) Indian men are the worst at staring at women, even if they are dressed fully. I believe you call it eve teasing.

India’s female students say ‘to hell with it, we won’t stand for molesting and Eve-teasing’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/07/india-female-students-eve-teasing

Thanks for the posts but you are the perfect example of defending something you dont understand esp when it comes to India, you are so off the mark and you know you are.
 
Posters here are funny. They bash the west as immoral and uncivilized. The same freedom that west offers women to wear bikinis and even topless, allows all of us to practice our religions and even spread it in their lands. No one persecutes you for following your religion and airing your views openly.

Try doing this in the so called civilized middle east and South Asia and see what happens to anyone who says their religion and culture are regressive and uncivilized openly. There will be bloodbath.

But hey, West is immoral and uncivilized.
 
Man, you're slow in understanding. I dont control women, you have admitted you do. I say to a woman wear what you like , its their choice but I have a choice to be with you.

I dont tell my family anything, they have their own minds.

If I wasnt a Muslim, Id feel the same as many Non-Muslims do inc women. You are in some delusional all women in the west want to walk around naked or topless in pools.

But your last point..

"It is perfectly accepted in India and no one ogles at women who wears it"

Please :)) Indian men are the worst at staring at women, even if they are dressed fully. I believe you call it eve teasing.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/07/india-female-students-eve-teasing

Thanks for the posts but you are the perfect example of defending something you dont understand esp when it comes to India, you are so off the mark and you know you are.

So you let your women wear anything they want? Good to know.

I tell my women not to go topless in public as it is still not acceptable by even western standards. Bikinis are accepted and my women can wear them.

Funny that you are projecting that you are some kind of liberal.
 
People who have a problem with public nudity have a choice to avoid it. May be don't go and look for alternatives?

The ruling does not mandate women to be topless. It gives them an option. Swimming pools are not going to get full of topless women all of a sudden. It's a right that some may exercise, most may not.
 
Judgmental much? Must suck to live in uncivilized west for you then.

There are both good and bad about West. I like the good parts and criticize the bad parts.

West's success is due to 2 reasons - 1) stealing resources from other countries in the last 200-400 years, and 2) strong work ethics of their conservative forefathers.

Do you think West is successful due to current day radical liberals? Absolutely not. They are undoing the good works of their conservative forefathers. They are burning West to the ground with immoral and insane life choices.
 
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It's only insecure men who always have issues with what a women should wear to not. They are not forcing you to go topless. You are free to go to the beach in whatever you please. I live my summers in Spain and nude beaches are very common. Nobody gives a damn or gives a second look and there is surely no staring. That usually happens if you come from a repressed society . Now I dont care for nude beaches. I just dont get the point. But to each his own. Live and let live. Also to a poster who keeps on dissing India for treatment of women ( India is terrible) should remember pakistan , his beloved homeland is even worse. Live and let live. It's really simple.

A nude beach and a public swimming pool isn’t the same thing, there’s no way you’d be ok with any of your family members going nude at a public swimming pool.

Also, since you’re an advocate for topless women, and how they should be allowed to wear whatever they want, my question to you is why stop at topless?

Why not let women go fully naked in public, it would be highly hypocritical of you to go against it since you think women should be allowed to wear whatever. If your daughter says she wants to go nangi in public, there’s a 99% chance you wouldn’t allow it.
 
To me this is as ridiculous and extreme as wearing a Burka. Both extremes of opposite poles.
 
There are both good and bad about West. I like the good parts and criticize the bad parts.

West's success is due to 2 reasons - 1) stealing resources from other countries in the last 200-400 years, and 2) strong work ethics of their conservative forefathers.

Do you think West is successful due to current day radical liberals? Absolutely not. They are undoing the good works of their conservative forefathers. They are burning West to the ground with immoral and insane life choices.

West is strong because of Capitalism, Free Market and encouraging innovation in every aspect of life. West rewards innovation and hard work. Something the conservative East has failed miserably. But hey, East can chest thump about moral superiority.

Every country stole resources up until 19th century if they had the means and technical knowhow. It is morally wrong. But we are not going to judge past people based on current standards.
 
West is strong because of Capitalism, Free Market and encouraging innovation in every aspect of life. West rewards innovation and hard work. Something the conservative East has failed miserably. But hey, East can chest thump about moral superiority.

Every country stole resources up until 19th century if they had the means and technical knowhow. It is morally wrong. But we are not going to judge past people based on current standards.

If any empire steals over 45-trillion worth of resources over 200-400 years, development is always likely.

I am not aware of any non-European empire who stole that much.

You are acting like West was always liberal. It wasn't. Even 50 years ago, things were quite conservative. It was during that time, West truly flourished.

Modern West is declining. Radical liberals are burning it to the ground. Crimes are increasing. Economies are tanking. Healthcare have become messy. Youth is going astray. Many more problems.
 
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