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Best Test match XI post-1976 vs best Test match XI pre-1976 - Who will win?

Harsh Thakor

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In this list in light of Syclyd Berry's post 1976 selection of best players I am selecting a pre-1976 test team to play against a post-1977 players team.I wonder who will win?

Post 1977 XI

1.Gavaskar
2.Barry Richards
3.Viv Richards
4.Brian Lara
5.Sachin Tendulkar
6.Ian Botham
7.Adam Gilchrist
8.Imran Khan
9.Shane Warne
10.Wasim Akram
11.Malcolm Marshall/Glen Mcgrath


Pre-1977 XI

1.Jack Hobbs
2.Len Hutton/Victor Trumper
3.Don Bradman
4.George Headley
5.Walter Hamond
6.Gary Sobers
7.Clyde Walcott
8.Keith Miller
9.Ray Lindwall/Fred Trueman
10.Sydney Barnes
11.Bill O'Reilly.

I back the post 1977 team to win by the slenderest of margins.It has more match-winners,stronger tail,greater versatility in bowling and in sum total equally good or agressive batsmen .However pre-1977 side has a better combination of all-rounders in Sobers and Miller.It also contains the 2 greatest cricketers of all time in Bradman and Sobers.The combination of Viv,Tendulkar,Lara,Imran,Wasim and Warne would me by a whisker more handy than that of Bradman,Sobers,Miller,Hammond ,Headley and Lindwall.With his great prowess as a match-winner Barry-Gavaskar opening combination could win more matches than that of Hobbs-Hutton or maybe Trumper-Hutton.The last crucial factor could be that the nos 10 and 11 of post-77 team were considerably better batsmen.
 
post 1977 team has more match winners, who playing in these teams are not match winners and why have they been selected?.
 
With respect, I think the premise is wrong.

I think that 1976 should be the cut-off in terms of debut, which would move Barry Richards, Viv Richards, Imran Khan and Dennis Lillee into the earlier team. Except Imran did nothing of note before 1976, so I'll put him back into the later team.

I have to confess that the likes of [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] and [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] have convinced me that there was a lack of quality in ancient cricket - but I think World War 2 ended that.

So I have hardly any pre-war players in my team.

Pre-1976 team

1 Barry Richards - retired as Test opener with highest average
2 Sunil Gavaskar - retired as Test batsman with most runs
3 Sir Donald Bradman - highest Test average
4 Sir Garfield Sobers - retired as Test batsman with most runs
5 Graeme Pollock
6 Keith Miller
7 Alan Knott - I want a proper keeper
8 Alan Davidson - the original Wasim Akram, but a better bowler (and weaker batsman)
9 Dennis Lillee - retired with most Test wickets
10 Fred Trueman - retired with most Test wickets
11 Jim Laker - GOAT off-spinner

My bowling attack is unbeatable:

1 Fred Trueman - awayswing at 145K
2 Alan Davidson - left-arm swing at around 140K
3 Dennis Lillee - the 1975 version was measured at 154K
4 Keith Miller - hostile in the low 140's
5 Garry Sobers - left arm swing at around 133K, and slow left-arm and chinaman bowling
6 Jim Laker - GOAT off-spin

Put it this way: Andy Roberts, Michael Holding, Jeff Thomson, Neil Adcock, Brian Statham, Ray Lindwall, Mike Procter, Wes Hall and Harold Larwood can't get into the team!

Neither can any of the 3 Ws.
 
With respect, I think the premise is wrong.

I think that 1976 should be the cut-off in terms of debut, which would move Barry Richards, Viv Richards, Imran Khan and Dennis Lillee into the earlier team. Except Imran did nothing of note before 1976, so I'll put him back into the later team.

I have to confess that the likes of [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] and [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] have convinced me that there was a lack of quality in ancient cricket - but I think World War 2 ended that.

So I have hardly any pre-war players in my team.

Pre-1976 team

1 Barry Richards - retired as Test opener with highest average
2 Sunil Gavaskar - retired as Test batsman with most runs
3 Sir Donald Bradman - highest Test average
4 Sir Garfield Sobers - retired as Test batsman with most runs
5 Graeme Pollock
6 Keith Miller
7 Alan Knott - I want a proper keeper
8 Alan Davidson - the original Wasim Akram, but a better bowler (and weaker batsman)
9 Dennis Lillee - retired with most Test wickets
10 Fred Trueman - retired with most Test wickets
11 Jim Laker - GOAT off-spinner

My bowling attack is unbeatable:

1 Fred Trueman - awayswing at 145K
2 Alan Davidson - left-arm swing at around 140K
3 Dennis Lillee - the 1975 version was measured at 154K
4 Keith Miller - hostile in the low 140's
5 Garry Sobers - left arm swing at around 133K, and slow left-arm and chinaman bowling
6 Jim Laker - GOAT off-spin

Put it this way: Andy Roberts, Michael Holding, Jeff Thomson, Neil Adcock, Brian Statham, Ray Lindwall, Mike Procter, Wes Hall and Harold Larwood can't get into the team!

Neither can any of the 3 Ws.



Won't get in to the type of debate like Davidson vs Wasim ...., but I agree with your cut off - payers should be considered with their debut. In that regard I'll take 1970 vs previous - the obvious reason for me is that I don't give much importance to cricket before 1970s, may be 60s, but that's separate discussion.

In that regard, my team will be - (strictly for Test cricket only)

Debut before 1st Jan 1970

Hobbs, Trumper (Can't pick Barry Richards for 4 Test career, but, indeed he was the best modern opener)
Bradman, G Pollock, WR Hammond
Sobers, K Miller
Knott+
Benaud*, RR Lindwall, FS Truman
-------------------------------------
Syd Barnes, Laker, Kanhai, AK Davidson & Les Ames+ makes my bench

O'railey doesn't make it because of Benaud, neither does Hutton over Kanhai for me, but most should pick Hutton or Sutcliffe over Kanhai, which is understandable. Everton Weekes is as ordinary as it comes, barring his 80+ average against post colonial India for almost 40% of his career total - Walcott was by far better batsman, because he did hit 5 centuries against Johnston's Australia in 1954-55)

After 1970 team

Gavaskar, Tendulkar (If he is to make the team, he has to open - doesn't make my team as middle order, over the other three at 3, 4 & 5)
Richards, Lara, Greg Chappell, Kallis
Gilchrist+, Imran*
Wasim, Warne, Marshall
--------------------------------------------------
Sanga+, RJ Hadlee, Murali, Ponting, McGrath (Would have loved to take DK Lillee, but, can't make ahead of Hadlee)

In a 6 Test series, played any where in world, team of 1970s & later will win 6-0 & batting at most 10 times, out of possible 12 & won't lose 20 wickets in more than 2 matches - that's my assessment, but I don't have a time machine to prove that & won't impose that to anyone.

On stats & reputation (like Davidson a better skilled pacer than Akram), result should be almost opposite & I am quite comfortable with that as well.
 
Post 1975 team will eat pre 1975 team for breakfast lunch and dinner.. Pre 1975 players were never as good as their modern counter parts however they were great for their era and laid the foundation down for modern greats..
 
I'm baffled by some of the comments here.

I've been a Lancashire member for over 30 years. Fifteen years ago I asked our legendary offspinner Flat Jack Simmons if it was true that this new rookie James Anderson might develop into the new Brian Statham (who retired as the third highest Test wicket taker of all time in the early 1960's.

"No, lad, that's impossible. This boy can actually swing it away: I reckon he could end up like Fred Trueman but 5 miles an hour slower."

Which is exactly what happened. Jimmy is probably the fifth or sixth best English quick ever (1 Trueman, 2 Statham, 3 Snow, 4 Willis).

But Jimmy is Trueman Minus 10K speed.

And Dale Steyn is Trueman Minus Bounce.

I don't glorify Hobbs or Headley or Hutton.

But I'm certain that Trueman was second only to Marshall as a quick bowler.

I'm certain that Lillee was the next best quick.

I'm certain that Jim Laker was the best offie of all time.

And I'm certain that the Barry Richards, Graeme Pollock and Mike Procter of 1969-1979 would be a lot better than any current cricketer, in all three formats. Including the T20 format that was ideal for all three.
 
Post 1975 team will eat pre 1975 team for breakfast lunch and dinner.. Pre 1975 players were never as good as their modern counter parts however they were great for their era and laid the foundation down for modern greats..
Fred Trueman bowled 99,000 First Class deliveries.

Jimmy Anderson has bowled only 42,000, and is 35 years old in a fortnight.

How can modern bowlers be as good when they haven't had even half as much practice and experience?
 
Fred Trueman bowled 99,000 First Class deliveries.

Jimmy Anderson has bowled only 42,000, and is 35 years old in a fortnight.

How can modern bowlers be as good when they haven't had even half as much practice and experience?

Quality over quantity. Modern bowlers play all 3 formats, are confronted with batsmen wearing helmets batting on exressways inside postcard sized grounds, travelling back and forth between multiple continents every couple of months.

Fred 'nobody' Trueman won't last a week if he were in 2017.
 
Pre 77 should include

Barry Richards instead of Hobbs
Greg and ian chappel
Alan davidson
Wes hall
 
I'm baffled by some of the comments here.

I've been a Lancashire member for over 30 years. Fifteen years ago I asked our legendary offspinner Flat Jack Simmons if it was true that this new rookie James Anderson might develop into the new Brian Statham (who retired as the third highest Test wicket taker of all time in the early 1960's.

"No, lad, that's impossible. This boy can actually swing it away: I reckon he could end up like Fred Trueman but 5 miles an hour slower."

Which is exactly what happened. Jimmy is probably the fifth or sixth best English quick ever (1 Trueman, 2 Statham, 3 Snow, 4 Willis).

But Jimmy is Trueman Minus 10K speed.

And Dale Steyn is Trueman Minus Bounce.

I don't glorify Hobbs or Headley or Hutton.

But I'm certain that Trueman was second only to Marshall as a quick bowler.

I'm certain that Lillee was the next best quick.

I'm certain that Jim Laker was the best offie of all time.

And I'm certain that the Barry Richards, Graeme Pollock and Mike Procter of 1969-1979 would be a lot better than any current cricketer, in all three formats. Including the T20 format that was ideal for all three.

You are baffled because, you couldn't put yourself in the shoes of that gentleman (Jack Simmons), who has seen the world's best fast bowler Fred Truman, at his time.

I tell you a story to explain this. We were a joint family (as most South Asians are) & I am a very good driver - has driven in Europe, AUS, Canada, USA & of course in BD - without any major incidence ever & i was taught driving at 11/12, by none other than my Dad. Now, few years back, I was back home & was driving my full family to our native village home through Highways. My mom (can't drive) kept telling me - give your papa the wheel, he drives better than you. Whereas, my dad at the on the front seat was quite comfortable on my driving. I was smiling, without responding her - finally, my Dad asked his wife, why she was asking so, when she knew that his (my dad) eyes had a surgery few months back & he hardly drives these days. She respond that, I trust you on wheels more than ...(my pet name).

it's not that my mom doesn't trust me, or doesn't know that I am quite a reliable driver - rather, the reason is that, she has seen my dad at his youth, she had been his partner throughout his career, his glory. For her, still the image of a 29 years old young man, driving a 1960s model Land Rover is more prominent than the man driving now, whom she carried in her laps in those long drives.

The story is same here - what Anderson, even you bring a clone of Fred Truman in front of him now, he'll tell that no one is comparable to that Fred Truman I saw tearing apart Aussies & West Indians 60 years back.

This is a sort of hallucination, which I am sure you understand much, much better than me. i give another example -

In 1984, Sir Garry wrote a book (or article, which you must have read) - 20 years back, which is basically a comparison between his team of 1966 (That won Wisden trophy 3-1) & Lloyd's team of 1984, that won 5-0.

In tat book, he made player to player comparison, excluding himself & Lloyd. With fading memory, I might mis quote few, but more or less this was his summary -

openers - Conard Hunte was by far better than Grineedge (who scored 214* in that Lord's chase), while Butcher was at par with GG, better than Haynes. Over all, those 2 opening pair are not even comparable.

No. 3 - draw. But, his exact word was -"I keep it even, because Viv looks better than Rohan - because he plays a far weaker attack this days". But, he kept Kanhai at 3, because of his better skills against pace & new ball.

Middle order - he didn't comment by spots here to avoid direct comparison with Lloyd. His summary was Nurse, was better than any WI middle order of that 1984 team (which had Lloyd & Richardson in middle order)

WK - Doujon is a better batsman, but as a WK both Hendkicks & Allen were far more safe. Overall, he'll pick Hendricks, because of his keeping & his (Hendricks's) side didn't need his batting.

Now, comes the musical part

Bowling - Lloyd's attack wasn't balance, because of lack of spinner - we had Gibbs. Harper won't make even as a part-timer in that team.

Pace bowling - Any given day, he'll pick Hall over Holding or Garner; but Griffith was at par with the 2. As a bowling pair, I won't break my opening pair. In directly, he dismissed Baptist saying that Lloyd's 4th bowler won't make in my team as 5th bowler.

Now the icing on the cake - Sobers picked his cousin David Halford over Marshall, for his all-round ability (Marshall too 24 wickets in 4 Tests at 18 & scored 48 runs, Halford scored 225+ runs & took 5 wickets) - though he agreed that Marshall will make his team.

Finally, his combined team was (He left both himself & Lloyd out)

1. Hunte
2. Butcher
3. Kanhai
4. Richards
5. Nurse
6. Halford
7. Hendricks
8. Marshall
9. Wes Hall
10. Charlie Griffith
11. Lance Gibbs

As I said, I read it long, long back & never had the taste to read it twice, so I might be missing few pieces - but, for sure, I haven't missed a word for Grineedge, Viv, Marshall, Holding & Doujon. Do you really think Sir Gary believed what he wrote? Or should this be taken as a reference in future such debates?

Sorry for the English - writing from transit.
 
[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] very good post as usual , nice incident mentioned to elucidate the point.
 
Pre-1976 would get murdered even if they received modern training. They were from a far smaller talent pool and are ridiculously overrated.
 
But [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION], Flat Jack played for Lancashire until 1989. He's almost a contemporary of Jimmy Anderson, but is the first to admit that Fred Trueman was faster and better.
 
Quality over quantity. Modern bowlers play all 3 formats, are confronted with batsmen wearing helmets batting on exressways inside postcard sized grounds, travelling back and forth between multiple continents every couple of months.

Fred 'nobody' Trueman won't last a week if he were in 2017.

Really?

Modern bowlers play 2/3 of their cricket against batsmen who swing the bat at every delivery because the 20 and 50 overs format requires it.

Whereas consider Fred Trueman versus the West Indies in 1957.

England batted first at Trent Bridge and scored 619-6 declared.

Fred Trueman than took 5-63 and 4-80.

But have you seen who he dismissed?

Sir Everton Weekes
Sir Garfield Sobers
Rohan Kanhai


Jim Laker did pretty well too. In addition to Trueman's scalps, he dismissed:

Sir Frank Worrell
Sir Clyde Walcott

That attack of Trueman, Statham and Laker was outrageously good.

Let me repeat.

This was a wicket on which England scored 619-6 declared.

But Trueman, Statham and Laker bowled out a West Indies batting line-up containing 4 Knights and Rohan Kanhai for 372 and 367.
 
You are baffled because, you couldn't put yourself in the shoes of that gentleman (Jack Simmons), who has seen the world's best fast bowler Fred Truman, at his time.

I tell you a story to explain this. We were a joint family (as most South Asians are) & I am a very good driver - has driven in Europe, AUS, Canada, USA & of course in BD - without any major incidence ever & i was taught driving at 11/12, by none other than my Dad. Now, few years back, I was back home & was driving my full family to our native village home through Highways. My mom (can't drive) kept telling me - give your papa the wheel, he drives better than you. Whereas, my dad at the on the front seat was quite comfortable on my driving. I was smiling, without responding her - finally, my Dad asked his wife, why she was asking so, when she knew that his (my dad) eyes had a surgery few months back & he hardly drives these days. She respond that, I trust you on wheels more than ...(my pet name).

it's not that my mom doesn't trust me, or doesn't know that I am quite a reliable driver - rather, the reason is that, she has seen my dad at his youth, she had been his partner throughout his career, his glory. For her, still the image of a 29 years old young man, driving a 1960s model Land Rover is more prominent than the man driving now, whom she carried in her laps in those long drives.

The story is same here - what Anderson, even you bring a clone of Fred Truman in front of him now, he'll tell that no one is comparable to that Fred Truman I saw tearing apart Aussies & West Indians 60 years back.

This is a sort of hallucination, which I am sure you understand much, much better than me. i give another example -

In 1984, Sir Garry wrote a book (or article, which you must have read) - 20 years back, which is basically a comparison between his team of 1966 (That won Wisden trophy 3-1) & Lloyd's team of 1984, that won 5-0.

In tat book, he made player to player comparison, excluding himself & Lloyd. With fading memory, I might mis quote few, but more or less this was his summary -

openers - Conard Hunte was by far better than Grineedge (who scored 214* in that Lord's chase), while Butcher was at par with GG, better than Haynes. Over all, those 2 opening pair are not even comparable.

No. 3 - draw. But, his exact word was -"I keep it even, because Viv looks better than Rohan - because he plays a far weaker attack this days". But, he kept Kanhai at 3, because of his better skills against pace & new ball.

Middle order - he didn't comment by spots here to avoid direct comparison with Lloyd. His summary was Nurse, was better than any WI middle order of that 1984 team (which had Lloyd & Richardson in middle order)

WK - Doujon is a better batsman, but as a WK both Hendkicks & Allen were far more safe. Overall, he'll pick Hendricks, because of his keeping & his (Hendricks's) side didn't need his batting.

Now, comes the musical part

Bowling - Lloyd's attack wasn't balance, because of lack of spinner - we had Gibbs. Harper won't make even as a part-timer in that team.

Pace bowling - Any given day, he'll pick Hall over Holding or Garner; but Griffith was at par with the 2. As a bowling pair, I won't break my opening pair. In directly, he dismissed Baptist saying that Lloyd's 4th bowler won't make in my team as 5th bowler.

Now the icing on the cake - Sobers picked his cousin David Halford over Marshall, for his all-round ability (Marshall too 24 wickets in 4 Tests at 18 & scored 48 runs, Halford scored 225+ runs & took 5 wickets) - though he agreed that Marshall will make his team.

Finally, his combined team was (He left both himself & Lloyd out)

1. Hunte
2. Butcher
3. Kanhai
4. Richards
5. Nurse
6. Halford
7. Hendricks
8. Marshall
9. Wes Hall
10. Charlie Griffith
11. Lance Gibbs

As I said, I read it long, long back & never had the taste to read it twice, so I might be missing few pieces - but, for sure, I haven't missed a word for Grineedge, Viv, Marshall, Holding & Doujon. Do you really think Sir Gary believed what he wrote? Or should this be taken as a reference in future such debates?

Sorry for the English - writing from transit.


MMHS sahib

A great 👍 post.
Enjoyed reading this.
 
[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

I don't blindly deify the past.

There's no Jack Hobbs in my eleven.

But I have watched cricket for over 40 years.

1. I have seen fielding get better.
2. I have seen tail-end batting get better.
3. I have seen the quality of wicketkeeping improve.
4. I have seen the quality of wrist-spin improve - it was awful in the 1970's.
5. I have seen the defensive techniques of batsmen fall off a cliff, because players like Williamson and Smith have to keep the score ticking over in 20 and 50 overs cricket and they don't tolerate laving the ball even in Tests.
6. I have seen fast bowlers change. Their bodies no longer have to bowl 50+ overs in a match 20 times a year in the County Championship and Tests, so their stamina is down, they bulk up with too much gym work and their bloated bodies can't get side-on. They generally operate in the 130s almost every time they bowl in Tests or First Class cricket. And they don't bowl to a slip cordon in 40 innings per year any more, so - like Mitchell Starc - they never learn how to bowl to one.
 
Fred Trueman bowled 99,000 First Class deliveries.

Jimmy Anderson has bowled only 42,000, and is 35 years old in a fortnight.

How can modern bowlers be as good when they haven't had even half as much practice and experience?

You keep telling that as though it is some irrefutable fact (i.e More FC bowling = Better the bowler ) ... can you actually prove this ? Going by your own logic you will have to accept that Bedser (122K+ balls ) is a far better bowler than Steyn ( Only 24K Balls )

Maybe you do believe that Bedser is a better bowler than Steyn ... won't be surprised if you do !!
 
You keep telling that as though it is some irrefutable fact (i.e More FC bowling = Better the bowler ) ... can you actually prove this ? Going by your own logic you will have to accept that Bedser (122K+ balls ) is a far better bowler than Steyn ( Only 24K Balls )

Maybe you do believe that Bedser is a better bowler than Steyn ... won't be surprised if you do !!

No, Steyn is clearly a faster and better bowler than Bedser. Bedser was quite similar to Philander.

There is a reason why I keep referring to the fact that fast bowlers between 1955 and 1995 bowled a lot more deliveries to a slip cordon than later bowlers.

Some youngsters think that the bowlers of 1955-1995 were part-timers who were inferior to modern players because they somehow trained or played less.

But they were full-timers who trained at least as hard as current players, had better coaching, had anything from two to three times as much match practice and could use anabolic steroids with impunity. And they had to learn to dismiss better batsman, with far superior defensive techniques.
 
I think the cricketers of the 80s and earlier had greater skills.

The windies bowlers of the 80s are far greater than todays bowlers.
 
Well then your theory of More FC Bowling = Better and faster bowlers is invalid then.

He is sooo not similar to Philander given his pace of slow military medium

Two sentences, and two highly contentious points!

I specifically compared Alec Bedser to Vernon Philander for reasons of very low pace.

You had compared him to Dale Steyn, but 90% of Steyn's Test deliveries fall in the 130-139K pace bracket, whereas 90% of Philander's - and almost certainly Bedser's - fall in the 120-129K pace bracket.

But Bedser was an ATG. I rate Steyn even higher, but Bedser befuddled Bradman, which shows just how great he was. Asif at his best was quite similar to Bedser, by all accounts.

As I explained earlier, I repeatedly point out how few First Class deliveries most modern pace bowlers deliver to highlight that they are not in some way more highly trained or skilled than their predecessors. In general they have had much less practice with a slip cordon and have less developed skill sets, and Mitchell Starc is the perfect example of a man who has all the attributes to be a great Test bowler but is a mediocre one because he has never learned which 6 balls to bowl in a Test or First Class over.

Starc should be bowling in random order:

1 Good length just outside off 140K
2 Good length just outside off 140K
3 Bouncer three overs of the spell, Yorker in the other over
4 Good length just outside off 140K
5 Slightly fuller, faster and straighter
6 Good length just outside off 140K

Of course Starc just bowls what he bowls in ODIs

1 145K Yorker
2 Bouncer
3 147 Yorker
4 Bouncer
5 Wild delivery off target
6 Ball that's too straight and can be flicked to legside
 
Two sentences, and two highly contentious points!

I specifically compared Alec Bedser to Vernon Philander for reasons of very low pace.

You had compared him to Dale Steyn, but 90% of Steyn's Test deliveries fall in the 130-139K pace bracket, whereas 90% of Philander's - and almost certainly Bedser's - fall in the 120-129K pace bracket.

But Bedser was an ATG. I rate Steyn even higher, but Bedser befuddled Bradman, which shows just how great he was. Asif at his best was quite similar to Bedser, by all accounts.

Iam going to keep my responses short in the best interest of time .... yes I had compared Bedser to Steyn and you introduced Philander but Iam absolutely poositively certain that both Steyn and Philander are significantly faster on avg than Bedser.

The thing is Iam not sure what you will accept as evidence to change your mind. Infact at this point I don't think you want the facts to ruin your highly nostalgic views and opinions of past players. If in the highly unlikely event that you would indeed entertain facts please elaborate on what facts your would consider.
 
Iam going to keep my responses short in the best interest of time .... yes I had compared Bedser to Steyn and you introduced Philander but Iam absolutely poositively certain that both Steyn and Philander are significantly faster on avg than Bedser.

The thing is Iam not sure what you will accept as evidence to change your mind. Infact at this point I don't think you want the facts to ruin your highly nostalgic views and opinions of past players. If in the highly unlikely event that you would indeed entertain facts please elaborate on what facts your would consider.
Tusker, my friend, we are almost in agreement! We could hardly be closer to agreement!

I agreed with your obvious - albeit at that time unstated - belief that Dale Steyn was both better and faster than Sir Alec Bedser. A man who even at the time of his career was only listed as "military medium" or charitably as "medium-fast", not "fast" like Trueman and Tyson, and not even "fast-medium" like Statham.

I then drew a comparison to Vernon Philander, who is also considered to be only military medium or generously but rather creatively as medium-fast, because he typically bowls in the 120-129K pace range.

Both Bedser and Philander are not much faster than a spinner, but were very highly skilled bowlers.

Now, you would I'm sure accept that even Anil Kumble - a wrist spinner - bowled regular deliveries around 110K in pace, which is 68.35 mph.

Meanwhile you will see from this article that Alec Bedser was generally estimated to bowl at the same pace as SF Barnes - by people who watched them both - around 70-80 mph - which is 113-129K.

Which is exactly what Philander bowls at.

It really makes sense on every level.

We have the fastest spinners measured at up to 110 km/h (68 mph).

So the slowest military medium bowlers would be in the 111-120K range.

Medium-fast bowlers would be in the 120-129K range.

Fast-medium bowlers would be in the 130-139K range.

Fast bowlers would be in the 140+K range.

The only way in which you can really separate out Alec Bedser or SF Barnes as slower than Vernon Philander is if you put forward an argument that they were SLOWER than the fastest spinners (i.e. Derek Underwood or Anil Kumble). But that would be an extraordinary argument.
 
So to expand on my earlier post, which I can't edit now:

FASTEST SPINNERS
Underwood 95-110K
Kumble 90-110K

MILITARY MEDIUM
Younis Khan 110-120K
Geoff Boycott 110-115K

SLOWISH MEDIUM-FAST BOWLERS
Bedser 115-129K
Barnes 115-129K
Philander 120-129K

I actually agree that some of Bedser's deliveries would be even slower than Philander's bowling.

But I reckon at least 4 balls per over by both were always in the 120-129K pace range.
 
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[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

Philander bowls in the 128-132K range consistently

Evidence : http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-south-africa-2017/engine/match/1031437.html?view=hawkeye

Sorry but there is no way Bedser can ever be considered to be bowling anywhere close to that ... based on the available footage.

Hence my question to you on what you will accept as evidence ?
[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

As we established during last year's South Africa v New Zealand home Test series, Cricinfo Hawkeye consistently overestimates pace by an average of around 8K compared with the SuperSport speeds - and you are the person who always refers to what modern TV shows. :)

In Australia, Philander only exceeded 130K I believe three times in 3 Tests according to Channel 9's feed.

Like you, I don't think that Bedser ever bowled even at 130K. But he looks to me like everything he bowled was in that 7-80 mph range as everyone has always stated - and that's 113-129K.
 
But [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION], Flat Jack played for Lancashire until 1989. He's almost a contemporary of Jimmy Anderson, but is the first to admit that Fred Trueman was faster and better.

This actually explains my logic better - this gentleman has played till 1989, which means he has seen & may be played against Marshall, Holding, Lillee, Hadlee, Roberts, Imran & Wasim at their prime - still he rates Statham better than Willis, Snow & these 3 better than Jimmy ..... and Truman probably better than any one.

This is called first love.
 
[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

I don't blindly deify the past.

There's no Jack Hobbs in my eleven.

But I have watched cricket for over 40 years.

1. I have seen fielding get better.
2. I have seen tail-end batting get better.
3. I have seen the quality of wicketkeeping improve.
4. I have seen the quality of wrist-spin improve - it was awful in the 1970's.
5. I have seen the defensive techniques of batsmen fall off a cliff, because players like Williamson and Smith have to keep the score ticking over in 20 and 50 overs cricket and they don't tolerate laving the ball even in Tests.
6. I have seen fast bowlers change. Their bodies no longer have to bowl 50+ overs in a match 20 times a year in the County Championship and Tests, so their stamina is down, they bulk up with too much gym work and their bloated bodies can't get side-on. They generally operate in the 130s almost every time they bowl in Tests or First Class cricket. And they don't bowl to a slip cordon in 40 innings per year any more, so - like Mitchell Starc - they never learn how to bowl to one.

This one I do agree partially - at least the defense part. Don't think any contemporary player has the judgement of where their off-stick is remotely close to Gavaskar, Boycott, Gooch or Grineedge (I am just naming the openers, but I saw clipping of ABs lone fight in WI against those pacers - he was leaving balls on length, literally kissing past his bails). And comparison of spin play is almost blasphemous level.

But, I believe overall game reached it's peak in between late 70s to early 2000s. Before that, may be 60s lead it towards that peak, but before that (50s & before - it's just not even comparable). But, I never pull down Miller, Bradman, Compton, Hobbs, Hammond or even Mclaren, Ranji, Trumper - they are true legends of the game in their time.

It's again like the same argument - Fangio or Jim Cleark was better driver, because they ran & controlled inferior machines. But, same people forget to think that Fangio, Cleark controlled those machines at 170KM, Schumi did that at 360KM .....

Any way, for you - Lever or Roger? Borg or Rafa? Connors or Novak? Please be honest with this one.
 
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Any way, for you - Lever or Roger? Borg or Rafa? Connors or Novak? Please be honest with this one.

Borg I'd say was pretty much identical to Nadal. They have similar styles and would be competitive across the eras with big or small racquets.

Laver, Federer, Connors, Djokovic you just can't compare, because Federer and Djokovic have styles dependent upon the exploitation of high powered racquets.

I can see how Connors and Laver would have adapted to such racquets. But I don't think Djokovic could adapt to light racquets.

This is why I have no respect for the high scores in modern ODIs.

Garry Sobers or Barry Richards would have been devastating with modern bats on modern grassless wickets with modern balls with machine-stitched seams under modern rules which make the bowler bowl where the batsman wants to receive the ball.

But it would actually be hilarious to watch Kane "Dangle Outside Offstump" Williamson try to bat against Gary Gilmour in the 1975 World Cup Semi-Final. Brief, obviously, but hilarious.
 
[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

As we established during last year's South Africa v New Zealand home Test series, Cricinfo Hawkeye consistently overestimates pace by an average of around 8K compared with the SuperSport speeds - and you are the person who always refers to what modern TV shows. :)

But the match I listed is the most recent one that was played in England ... so now you don't trust Sky Sports cameras too ??!! Thats why I ask .... what evidence will you accept as fact ?

BTW just to be clear we didnt establish anything other than that there were 2 different readings .... But the fact is Hawkeye is the official (And the most popular and reputabe) measurer of speeds (which you always ignore) . Its fine if you don't want to believe they are accurate but don't try to tell us that it is a fact and that we need to chop of 8K from every speed reading.

But on the other hand you are willing to rate Bedser who is seen ambling away and bowing with the keeper standing up as to be bowling in the mid/upper 120K's ... nostalgic much ?
 
Borg I'd say was pretty much identical to Nadal. They have similar styles and would be competitive across the eras with big or small racquets.

Laver, Federer, Connors, Djokovic you just can't compare, because Federer and Djokovic have styles dependent upon the exploitation of high powered racquets.

I can see how Connors and Laver would have adapted to such racquets. But I don't think Djokovic could adapt to light racquets.

This is why I have no respect for the high scores in modern ODIs.

Garry Sobers or Barry Richards would have been devastating with modern bats on modern grassless wickets with modern balls with machine-stitched seams under modern rules which make the bowler bowl where the batsman wants to receive the ball.

But it would actually be hilarious to watch Kane "Dangle Outside Offstump" Williamson try to bat against Gary Gilmour in the 1975 World Cup Semi-Final. Brief, obviously, but hilarious.


You see, this is exactly why I brought this comparison from Tennis, though it's not the appropriate place. You brought absolutely unnecessary factor of advanced racquets - which has very little impact in this comparison. Let me explain why -

First, wide or narrow, Titanium frame with optic fibre string has nothing to do about the quality of Tennis these players play - first reason is, it's not cricket that top edge would go for Six. Federer's opponent is also playing with a similar tool.

Second reason is technical - during dorms, I did play some tennis, but I am sure you are much, much better player. In Tennis, wider string surface doesn't give you batting like advantage, you have to hit the ball with the sweetest spot for control & precision. Wider racquets actually gives more top spin & back spin (slice), because of the higher elasticity of string surface. May be, it might help a bit in volley, but on base line rally, absolutely not much in terms of return.

Third issue is the physical capability - now players need to be much, much faster to reach a ball, hit by a Titanium racquet. Some of the interceptions that modern players play is almost unimaginable, even in 80s.

Last is the adjustment - any player can choose any racquet that he is comfortable with. Many players in 80s, still opted for hand stringed wooden racquet, though wider, metal tool was available, because they were more comfortable.

Now, coming to the comparison, I will quote from a gentleman living close to you now days - someone, played for 25 years professionally before, along & after Rod Laver - the one & only Ken Rosewell.

When (2009), Rosewell was asked the same question (Federer vs Laver), he started to drift away answering directly. That BBC journalist brought him to the point every time he finished his response. Finally, Ken admitted that - top players at our time were good, very good, but the game has gone to a different domain now days. I don't think it will be possible for players of our generation to reach the ball in rally. May be, on grass, in serve & volley Rod will compete neck a neck, but ... that's max.

Coming to the comparison, though it was never my first target, I have to disagree with you here. Federer is unbelievably good, even at this age, but his unique quality is his elegance - in a dark negative like picture, still I'll be able to identify Rogers just from his movements & unique winners. Even in this era of power tennis, he is silky smooth & apparently doesn't have any weakness. In recent QF, he played a forehand passing winner against our boy Raonic & I had to clap it standing. It was played running from forehand corner, dropped on the line & wrong footing 6'5" Raonic on net, 2 yards from the path of the ball!!! May be on grass, Laver might win a set, with his best serve & volley game, on a day, Roger losing his first service %, but otherwise on Clay & Hard Court, simply don't see how he can get engaged in Roger's rally from base line - whichever racquet both can use.

The Borg - Nadal comparison is closer, but still decisive. Indeed, Borg retired at 26, but he was unique of his own - I can't explain how a player can win 6 French & 5 Wimbledon, tournaments taking place in 3 weeks gap on clay & grass, but fail to win any at Flashing Meadow or Melbourne park (Remember, it was grass there till 90s). But he did make 4 US finals on Hard Court, therefore probably the most complete player before the current 3. Having said that, Rafa Nadal is absolutely out of this world on his game - I don't know how you think, Borg'll match his power & stamina on Clay or Hard Court, but may be on grass he might beat Rafa sometimes.

Novak is extremely under rated player, because of being under the shadow of 2 players standing head & shoulder above anyone at 1 & 2 in the history of the game. But, he is probably the best all-round player ever - only player to hold the majors on 3 different surface at a time - in fact 4, he was the Stuttgart Masters Champ as well that time on indoor synthetic. Apparently, I see Novak playing every shot & has probably has the best all-round game on back & forehand (he doesn't have a backhand actually), both top spin & slice. In that regard, comparison with Connors is fair, because Jimmy was also a fantastic all-round player, but different level.

These 3 are extremely unlucky that, their career path crossed each others for over a decade, otherwise each one is good enough to double their GS titles. Had Rafa not been there, Roger probably would have won 7 French as well, something true for Rafa for All England. Almost every Tennis expert widely consider the rank of top 10 is like - Roger, Rafa, Laver, Novak, Pete, Borg, Lendel, Connors, McEnroe, Aggassi/Rosewell - in that order. I am sure, by the time he retires, Novak will come to 3rd or even may be 2nd.

You are absolutely right - that racquet is part of the style, not the skill, which is transferable; it'll take Roger or Rafa or Novak, less than a month to adjust with the pace of the tool, but are you sure that players of old era would have matched that power, speed, flexibility and all-round game so easily?

To be honest, I believe the player prior to 90s that could have competed best with those current 3 actually is McEnroe - JP didn't have the rally or base line game, but he was capable of playing unbelievable winners from impossible angle - something that'll win him points even in current days. Other than that, it was like tennis in slow mo......


More than Gilmore, probably the pace pair who would trouble recent batsmen most are Richard Hadlee & Terry Alderman - not sure how teams will go to lunch on day one, if these 2 starts with the new ball on a slightly green track.

Thanks for reading, if you can reach up to this ..... it's a Friday night :)
 
Fred Trueman bowled 99,000 First Class deliveries.

Jimmy Anderson has bowled only 42,000, and is 35 years old in a fortnight.

How can modern bowlers be as good when they haven't had even half as much practice and experience?


If you don't put effort in every delivery you bowl and trundle around for 4-5 deliveries an over and then last delivery you just put a bit of effort it's easy to bowl more deliveries than people who put effort in most of their deliveries..

Anyways did you actually watched the entire career of trueman do know how good or bad he was or just relying on books and his compatriots comments about him which will be biased and ourdated?
 
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