Brexit: the UK has left the European Union

[Robert]

In other news, the EU has presented an improvement to the NI Protocol.

There will be no checks on goods and services entering NI from the EU, and reduced checks on goods entering NI from GB, to end the “sausage war”.

Hopefully if adopted this will reduce Loyalist anger and the risk of violence at the interface communities.

In effect this plan keeps NI in the Single Market, making it the most attractive place to locate in the UK for importers/exporters to the EU.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58871221

 

[IMMY69]

Heard oh the news today that Pig farming has taken a hit due to labour shortage.

The Government may have to step in to stop the mass slaughter. The Farmers are saying its impossible to attract the foreign staff due to the minimum wage criteria of £26,000.00, only temporary staff needed and the English Test that the foreign staff have to pass.

Looks like the Government is going to have to relax its criteria for employing foreign labour for these types of jobs BUT question is whether the foreigners will want to come after all of this.

 

[Robert]

Heard oh the news today that Pig farming has taken a hit due to labour shortage.

The Government may have to step in to stop the mass slaughter. The Farmers are saying its impossible to attract the foreign staff due to the minimum wage criteria of £26,000.00, only temporary staff needed and the English Test that the foreign staff have to pass.

Looks like the Government is going to have to relax its criteria for employing foreign labour for these types of jobs BUT question is whether the foreigners will want to come after all of this.

Yep. Instead of going to sleep unafraid in CO2 before slaughter, the pigs will go out screaming in terror watching their family get bolt-gunned. Then the bodies will be incinerated because the meat cannot be sold. It’s an awful waste.

Farmers will go to the wall.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Nice try. The point of Brexit was not to get rid of EU citizens, The point of Brexit was to regain political and economical sovereignty.

Again, nothing stopping EU citizens from working in the UK other than paperwork. The question you should be asking is why did EU citizens flee the UK when offered a chance to stay in the UK in presence of paperwork and proof of residence? Remember, the UK enshrined EU law.

You must have missed the UKIP posters mate, the ones where Nigel Farage was stood as a lone hero to stop the tide of swarthy foreigners piling into the country and bleeding the welfare state dry.

Why can't we get anyone to harvest apples or slaughter pigs? Jobs for the British me old mucker. They are there for the taking.

 

[Technics 1210]

You must have missed the UKIP posters mate, the ones where Nigel Farage was stood as a lone hero to stop the tide of swarthy foreigners piling into the country and bleeding the welfare state dry.

Why can't we get anyone to harvest apples or slaughter pigs? Jobs for the British me old mucker. They are there for the taking.

Matey, Nigel Farage is a nobody. You are giving him too much credit. Do you really believe he had the power of persuasion to convince 17.5M voter to leave? If he had such superpowers he’d be PM by now, if not, an MP (i think he’s failed 6 or 7 times).

The power to convince largely is responsible with the crash of 2008 which ushered in a period of austerity; couple this with a complete disconnect between Westminster and the working class - you have you 17.5M votes. Some voters like myself didn’t vote on hatred of foreigners, but rather on controlled immigration which is the bedrock of steady economic growth (as witnessed pre 2000). Moreover, many felt the biggest single market wasn’t promised what it was meant to be. Restriction between non-EU trade kept UK on the back foot, the near collapse of the Euro was a danger sign, and high levels of unemployment in the EU/EZ were a clear indication the EU project was failing.

Now I would go ask those EU citizens who fled the UK because they wouldn’t cough up £60 for documentation instead of trumpeting the Daily Mail headlines. If EU citizens are desperate for work, they’ll be willing to take British jobs if needs be otherwise, UK will continue to prosper as it did before your loving eastern European commie block joined the EU.

 

[Robert]

Matey, Nigel Farage is a nobody. You are giving him too much credit. Do you really believe he had the power of persuasion to convince 17.5M voter to leave? If he had such superpowers he’d be PM by now, if not, an MP (i think he’s failed 6 or 7 times).
.

Farage is the most significant British politician since Thatcher.

He was the key mover in the Leave vote, and then forced the Tory party to adopt his policies in the 2019 GE. Remember when the Brexit Party was polling as high as the Tories, standing candidates against every Remain Tory MP.

All without ever being ejected to Parliament.

 

[Technics 1210]

Farage is the most significant British politician since Thatcher.

He was the key mover in the Leave vote, and then forced the Tory party to adopt his policies in the 2019 GE. Remember when the Brexit Party was polling as high as the Tories, standing candidates against every Remain Tory MP.

All without ever being ejected to Parliament.

Ok. Farage opposed the EU since its inception. He wasn't riding the anti-EU bandwagon since 2008, he was against the EU from day dot, since the days of Thatcher. He became an MEP too. Farage was a Tory, thus why UKIP was considered, Blu-kip.

It wasn't the Brexit party, but the UKIP party that won 4 million votes in 2015 (after the pathetic Tory/Liberal coalition failed when Clegg performed the mother of all political U-turns with tuition fees). 4M votes but no seat in Parliament, this was a rising threat and hence Parliament then voted 5 to 1 in favour of offering the UK a referendum on the EU. Had the UK voted to stay, UKIP was finished. Turned out it wasn't just the 4M UKIP voters, but another 13.5M voters spanning various political affliliations had opposed the EU.

When the North was begging and pleading for help after 2008 crash, what did Cameron and Clegg do? Nothing.

Blaming Farage, racists, xenophobics, doesn't address cause. Cause was, is, and will always be, austerity. No one complained about the EU when UK was booming in the 00s, cos when you have money in your pockets and food on the table, you don't care about who or what is in power.

Deal with austerity first. Deal with affordability first. Deal with hunger first, the racsim and facism will cease to exist.

 

[Robert]

Ok. Farage opposed the EU since its inception. He wasn't riding the anti-EU bandwagon since 2008, he was against the EU from day dot, since the days of Thatcher. He became an MEP too. Farage was a Tory, thus why UKIP was considered, Blu-kip.

It wasn't the Brexit party, but the UKIP party that won 4 million votes in 2015 (after the pathetic Tory/Liberal coalition failed when Clegg performed the mother of all political U-turns with tuition fees). 4M votes but no seat in Parliament, this was a rising threat and hence Parliament then voted 5 to 1 in favour of offering the UK a referendum on the EU. Had the UK voted to stay, UKIP was finished. Turned out it wasn't just the 4M UKIP voters, but another 13.5M voters spanning various political affliliations had opposed the EU.

When the North was begging and pleading for help after 2008 crash, what did Cameron and Clegg do? Nothing.

Blaming Farage, racists, xenophobics, doesn't address cause. Cause was, is, and will always be, austerity. No one complained about the EU when UK was booming in the 00s, cos when you have money in your pockets and food on the table, you don't care about who or what is in power.

Deal with austerity first. Deal with affordability first. Deal with hunger first, the racsim and facism will cease to exist.

I don’t think this was the decisive factor. Cummings identified an electorate (urban, white, poor) which had not voted before, using Cambridge Analytica FB data.

Garage provided a face for that cadre to vote for, with that racist poster of the Middle Eastern men in the queue.

Tower blocks where the turnout was usually 20% were seeing three times the usual vote. And that cadre all voted Leave.

 

[Technics 1210]

I don’t think this was the decisive factor. Cummings identified an electorate (urban, white, poor) which had not voted before, using Cambridge Analytica FB data.

Garage provided a face for that cadre to vote for, with that racist poster of the Middle Eastern men in the queue.

Tower blocks where the turnout was usually 20% were seeing three times the usual vote. And that cadre all voted Leave.

Urban, white, and poor - the largest demographic hit by post 2008 austerity. Of course they would speak up, as I said, austerity is the cause. Where were these urban, white, and poor voters when the economy was 'booming' in the 00s?

Cambridge Analytica was used by Obama in 2012 too. So hardly a crime; though a cunning method to connect with the voters. Remainers had the same tools at their disposal.

So Farage posting infront of a poster increased turnout increased by threefold? Still doesn't add up from 4M UKIP voters to 17.5M brexit voters. You forget, this was the first referendum offered to new generations (even the 70s referendum was a joke as the decision to join the EEC was made 2 years prior).

Look, if Farage and his poster were enough to convince 17.5M; then what does it say about MSM? These were the guys that gave Farage a platform, along with LBC and BBC. Moreover what does it say about the Remain campaign? They had equal opportunity to convince the masses; but it's tough to convince someone who has nothing to lose. Sounds to me the Remain campaigners were complacent - thinking they would win. They had the same opportunity as Leave campaign.

I know you feel the majority of Brexit voters are racists, but perhaps you should stop and think about the topics which mattered to most - economy and immigration. Instead the Remainers shot down legitimate concerns of Leavers, and yes, paid the price with cries of racism and facism.

Blame Major who didn't offer a referendum to join the EU in the 90s, and brushed it under the carpet with stealth membership. Blame Blair who had a choice to control the number of EU citizens entering the UK from eastern block, and finally blame the wretched western capitalist banking system which lead to the crash of 2008 with people still struggling, familes torn apart, jobs lost, homes lost, lives lost, with no end in site.

If only the liberals didn't shout 'racist' when immigration was a concern. If only liberals didn't shout 'meritocracy' when jobs were lost. If only liberals didn't shout 'facist' to every Brexit voter.

If only liberals listened.

 

[IMMY69]

I wouldn't say 100pct of the leave voters were racist.
Perhaps 75pct were racist snd the other 25pct just deluded.

 

[Technics 1210]

I wouldn't say 100pct of the leave voters were racist.
Perhaps 75pct were racist snd the other 25pct just deluded.

This post succinctly summarises the problem with liberals and points I made. Yet remainers are still left wondering why UK voted to leave.

 

[IMMY69]

This post succinctly summarises the problem with liberals and points I made. Yet remainers are still left wondering why UK voted to leave.

I'm a paid up Conservative Party member and a proud liberal

 

[Technics 1210]

Haha. Tory supporter and a liberal. You couldn't make this up.

Liberals by definition are prepared to listen instead of resorting to labels. The irony, most liberals in the UK are actually facists, and they don't even realise that supporting the tories is supporting a centre-right/right wing government. Yup, the word delusional springs to mind. Oh my.

Here's to a prosperous Brexit! The voice of the majority!

 

[IMMY69]

Haha. Tory supporter and a liberal. You couldn't make this up.

Liberals by definition are prepared to listen instead of resorting to labels. The irony, most liberals in the UK are actually facists, and they don't even realise that supporting the tories is supporting a centre-right/right wing government. Yup, the word delusional springs to mind. Oh my.

Here's to a prosperous Brexit! The voice of the majority!

So liberals are racists and yet liberals are the one who voted to remain?
But then true liberals are ready to listen too?

I think you need to strike a balance here on PP!
Not take things to personally rather then throwing names at those who a disagree with you maybe just try an debate the issue in a calm way.

I've always voted Conservative and you even in the Tory party you have a spectrum from left to right.
Regarding Brexit, I was alway fearful that remainers thought it was in the bag which is why so many didn't vote. For something of such magnitude it should always have been a best of three. This is not something I've dreamt up now, it's view I've held since Cameron announced the Referendum in 2016.

Whilst I agree with you that austerity played a part but it's also true that the leave campaign used the immigration issue to drive home their campaign. Things like Turkey joining the EU, the EU army and pictures of immigrants of colour standing in a queue brought deer into the hearts of people.

 

[Technics 1210]

So liberals are racists and yet liberals are the one who voted to remain?
But then true liberals are ready to listen too?

I think you need to strike a balance here on PP!
Not take things to personally rather then throwing names at those who a disagree with you maybe just try an debate the issue in a calm way.

I've always voted Conservative and you even in the Tory party you have a spectrum from left to right.
Regarding Brexit, I was alway fearful that remainers thought it was in the bag which is why so many didn't vote. For something of such magnitude it should always have been a best of three. This is not something I've dreamt up now, it's view I've held since Cameron announced the Referendum in 2016.

Whilst I agree with you that austerity played a part but it's also true that the leave campaign used the immigration issue to drive home their campaign. Things like Turkey joining the EU, the EU army and pictures of immigrants of colour standing in a queue brought deer into the hearts of people.

I said liberals are facists, not racists. Learn to read or kindly take your dog for a walk.

You don't give a damn. All you care is about the money in your pocket, the value of your assets, and the political bandwagon hopping to make yourself relevant.

I refuse to debate with anyone who labels Brexit voters racists and delusional. As a liberal you insult the democratic right of people, ergo, are a facsit.

Best of three, lol, only cos remain lost, we must go rock, papers, scissors.

If remainers where so confident of the EU and its economic promises, why did the remain campaign fail? Simply because there is no economic benefit and austerity is the mother of all change.

Plus you have cherry picked my points, I got no time for cherry pickers.

 

[Technics 1210]

I should duly add, someone who agrees that austerity played a role shouldn't be labelling 75% Brexit voters as racists, and the the other 25% as delusional. In otherwords, those hurt by austerity were either racists or delusional according to tory voting liberals.

Remainers hurting cos they couldn't convince the voters of the economic benefits of the EU so instead divi up the Brexit voters in the racist/delusional categories.

Tsk tsk.

 

[IMMY69]

I should duly add, someone who agrees that austerity played a role shouldn't be labelling 75% Brexit voters as racists, and the the other 25% as delusional. In otherwords, those hurt by austerity were either racists or delusional according to tory voting liberals.

Remainers hurting cos they couldn't convince the voters of the economic benefits of the EU so instead divi up the Brexit voters in the racist/delusional categories.

Tsk tsk.

Maybe you don't know me well enough, but that was said in jest.
I have family members who voted to exit, some are delusional, most are not but none of them racist.

By the there I'm not hurting economically, not yet anyway.
But I do think the country as whole would be better off within the EU and that's irrespective of whether the UK is doing better then other EU countries in this current cycle.

 

[Technics 1210]

Maybe you don't know me well enough, but that was said in jest.
I have family members who voted to exit, some are delusional, most are not but none of them racist.

By the there I'm not hurting economically, not yet anyway.
But I do think the country as whole would be better off within the EU and that's irrespective of whether the UK is doing better then other EU countries in this current cycle.

Ahhh. You said in jest. My bad, I must've missed your sense of humour given your posts over the years on Brexit.

So some of your family who voted for Brexit are delusional but none of them racist? How does your jest factor in the 75% you labelled racist?

You can claim this country is better off being in the EU than out, but you have no evidence, because since UK voted out, we've been hit by Covid.

 

[IMMY69]

Ahhh. You said in jest. My bad, I must've missed your sense of humour given your posts over the years on Brexit.

So some of your family who voted for Brexit are delusional but none of them racist? How does your jest factor in the 75% you labelled racist?

You can claim this country is better off being in the EU than out, but you have no evidence, because since UK voted out, we've been hit by Covid.

Trust me they're delusional.
If they weren't then they wouldn't be doing the lottery and taking about how they'll spend their money before they've even won it...

My claims are based on the following:-

An aging population and a shortage of both skilled and unskilled labour.
Hiring skilled staff from the commonwealth will just lead to wage inflation, higher costs while inevitably be transferred to the consumer

Delays at customs which has already impacted the supply of raw materials.
Good that came a cross the English Channel with no delay are being help at customs and taking 4-6 weeks to get cleared.

Brexit has happened, it's where we're at now. If I was sitting at work hampering to be back in the EU then I'll only have myself to blame if things go wrong. So we move on. But that doesn't mean we can't continue to debate the merits of remaining or exiting in a civil way. I do hope Brexit works out

 

[Technics 1210]

Trust me they're delusional.
If they weren't then they wouldn't be doing the lottery and taking about how they'll spend their money before they've even won it...

My claims are based on the following:-

An aging population and a shortage of both skilled and unskilled labour.
Hiring skilled staff from the commonwealth will just lead to wage inflation, higher costs while inevitably be transferred to the consumer

Delays at customs which has already impacted the supply of raw materials.
Good that came a cross the English Channel with no delay are being help at customs and taking 4-6 weeks to get cleared.

Brexit has happened, it's where we're at now. If I was sitting at work hampering to be back in the EU then I'll only have myself to blame if things go wrong. So we move on. But that doesn't mean we can't continue to debate the merits of remaining or exiting in a civil way. I do hope Brexit works out

Doesn't explain the 75% you claim to be racists because they voted to leave.

Delay at customs, paperwork, something that existed before UK joined the EU by stealth means.

 

[IMMY69]

Doesn't explain the 75% you claim to be racists because they voted to leave.

Delay at customs, paperwork, something that existed before UK joined the EU by stealth means.

75pct bit, refer to posts above.

Businesses were built on no customs, no paperwork after the UK joined the EU.
To give just one example...
A physical gold bullion trader developed his business selling high end gold products into the EU, his biggest market.
Since Brexit his market into the EU has shrunk by 95pct and he's now struggling to pay his rent and extending his loans to keep his staff.

Another example:-
A company that produces high end furniture in a Georgia has had to shut shop here because he couldn't meet his deadlines and his clients when elsewhere.

I know you're you old enough to remember the 70's, 80'd early 90's to know what choices we had on the shelves and at what cost as opposed to after joining the EU..

This are just a few things.

But like I said it's done now. We live on

 

[Technics 1210]

75pct bit, refer to posts above.

Businesses were built on no customs, no paperwork after the UK joined the EU.
To give just one example...
A physical gold bullion trader developed his business selling high end gold products into the EU, his biggest market.
Since Brexit his market into the EU has shrunk by 95pct and he's now struggling to pay his rent and extending his loans to keep his staff.

Another example:-
A company that produces high end furniture in a Georgia has had to shut shop here because he couldn't meet his deadlines and his clients when elsewhere.

I know you're you old enough to remember the 70's, 80'd early 90's to know what choices we had on the shelves and at what cost as opposed to after joining the EU..

This are just a few things.

But like I said it's done now. We live on

Not true.

Business post EU were built on no paperwork which sped up transactions This was the benefit of the EU and customs and excise. Speaking of which, as for Gold bullion, no VAT on Gold bullion, so no change. LMBA has same number of average transactions pre and post Brexit.

A business that had to shut shop was not because of paperwork, but because cheap labour was no longer available.

 

[IMMY69]

Not true.

Business post EU were built on no paperwork which sped up transactions This was the benefit of the EU and customs and excise. Speaking of which, as for Gold bullion, no VAT on Gold bullion, so no change. LMBA has same number of average transactions pre and post Brexit.

A business that had to shut shop was not because of paperwork, but because cheap labour was no longer available.

I know about there being no VAT
Oh my that man must have lied to me then.
I shall speak to him next week and ask him why deliveries into WU that took 48 hours are now taking 4-6 weeks...

 

[IMMY69]

By the way of course businesses were built on cheaper labour from the EU.
Labour that worked harder and for longer hours...
People and business here prospered from it and that didn't couldn't adapt although as per my earlier point, Ruth an aging population the would like have been a shortage of labour anyway.

 

[James]

I wouldn't say 100pct of the leave voters were racist.
Perhaps 75pct were racist snd the other 25pct just deluded.

Absolute rubbish. Not exactly a confounding mystery why the Remain side lost with comments like this now is it.

 

[IMMY69]

Absolute rubbish. Not exactly a confounding mystery why the Remain side lost with comments like this now is it.

Oh boy
Please ignore that post
It was a joke made in bad taste and I apologise

 

[James]

Oh boy
Please ignore that post
It was a joke made in bad taste and I apologise

Ok.

 

[Robert]

I'm a paid up Conservative Party member and a proud liberal

Sure, one can be fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Ken Clarke is the best example.

Are you active in your local Association?

In the nineteenth century, the Liberals were arguably more right wing than the Tories, preferring laissez-faire. This led to ideological difficulties in suspending the Corn Laws, exacerbating the Irish Famine.

 

[Robert]

Delay at customs, paperwork, something that existed before UK joined the EU by stealth means.

Eh? SM got rid of all those checks.

 

[Robert]

The irony, most liberals in the UK are actually facists!

This is an oxymoron. The two terms preclude each other, like “republican monarchist”.

Liberalism is about personal freedom from state coercion, protected by law. Triumphs of liberalism therefore include Magna Carta, Glorious Revolution 1689, USA Constitution.

Fascist is an extreme authoritarian system where the state is deified and individuals are suppressed. Triumphs of fascism therefore include Mussolini and Hitler.

 

[Robert]

Whilst I agree with you that austerity played a part but it's also true that the leave campaign used the immigration issue to drive home their campaign. Things like Turkey joining the EU, the EU army and pictures of immigrants of colour standing in a queue brought deer into the hearts of people.

And that nonsense circulating in social media about when the Lisbon Treaty is “fully enacted”, UK will lose control over her nukes to Brussels.

When I countered by telling them that the Lisbon Treaty was fully enacted in 2009 they called me a liar. When I posted a link to the EU site proving my point, they started calling me names like libtard, like Trump fans in the USA.

So I get what you say about delusion. I have lost a lot of faith in people in the last five years. So many will never admit they were misinformed and made a mistake.

 

[James]

So I get what you say about delusion. I have lost a lot of faith in people in the last five years. So many will never admit they were misinformed and made a mistake.

This discussion is, in my opinion, irreconcilable.

Leavers “won’t admit they were misinformed and made a mistake” for a very simple reason: because they feel that they made an informed decision from their perspective, and that they didn’t make a mistake.

You think that they are wrong, and they think that you are equally wrong.

The UK now has genuine national sovereignty and the ultimate jurisdiction over its own laws. (Unlike Poland, which is currently locked in a bitter dispute with the EU over a particular legal decision.) Remainers don’t rate the concept nor the price of national and legal sovereignty, and on a daily basis they write off sovereignty as intangible and inconsequential — that is, naturally, why they are Remainers.

Remainers are content for the UK to be legally and rhetorically subordinate to a separate neoliberal supranational body, with the EU also getting unlimited and unmonitored border entry into the UK — Remainers do not care about these costs, or even consider them to be costs, and they don’t feel that these things affect them — in return, the UK gets favourable terms of continental trade from the EU, and it is easier for British people to study at college in a different country or to go on a European holiday.

Leavers, conversely, don’t know or care about a thing called Erasmus (which was, incidentally, being utilised by less than 0.5% of UK students aboard), and they don’t care about more easily going on holiday. Many Leavers didn’t get a university degree, can’t afford to go on a holiday, and have not even ventured outside of their local region of the country for years. We’ve all seen which areas voted to leave, and which voted to remain. There was a very clear and very obvious class divide in play.

The sense of national sovereignty, the communitarian/imagined idea of “nation”, and a Canada-Australia-New Zealand style of managed inward immigration, delivers a more important package for Leavers than the benefits of EU membership <I>as they see it.</I> Leavers, contrary to the controversial adage, actually *did* know what they were voting for.

Remainers and Leavers are two separate groups of people that have fundamentally different mindsets, beliefs, and systems of value. That’s ultimately all there is to it — and that’s why they will never agree.

 

[IMMY69]

Sure, one can be fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Ken Clarke is the best example.

Are you active in your local Association?

In the nineteenth century, the Liberals were arguably more right wing than the Tories, preferring laissez-faire. This led to ideological difficulties in suspending the Corn Laws, exacerbating the Irish Famine.

Actually the membership is fairly recent.
My work often involves speaking with and working with local councils, this has lead to talking and meeting up with councillors and a few MP's from different constituencies.
I'm in the property business and five years ago we made an effort to provide properties for social housing for the vulnerable which involved working closely with the housing departments of several councils. The system of using the private housing sector for social housing is flawed...

Anyway a couple of members asked me join and to attend this years conference with them and to meet with a couple of ministers whilst there. I couldn't go this year but I intend to go to Birmingham next year.

 

[Robert]

This discussion is, in my opinion, irreconcilable.

Leavers “won’t admit they were misinformed and made a mistake” for a very simple reason: because they feel that they made an informed decision from their perspective, and that they didn’t make a mistake.

You think that they are wrong, and they think that you are equally wrong.

I don’t think people who believed that the Lisbon Treaty once fully enacted would hand control over our nukes to Brussels are wrong, I know they are because I read it and they didn’t.

That’s what disappoints me. These ignorami took my personal sovereignty as an EU citizen away and I resent their lack of understanding.

 

[Robert]

Actually the membership is fairly recent.
My work often involves speaking with and working with local councils, this has lead to talking and meeting up with councillors and a few MP's from different constituencies.
I'm in the property business and five years ago we made an effort to provide properties for social housing for the vulnerable which involved working closely with the housing departments of several councils. The system of using the private housing sector for social housing is flawed...

Anyway a couple of members asked me join and to attend this years conference with them and to meet with a couple of ministers whilst there. I couldn't go this year but I intend to go to Birmingham next year.

Reads like you are one of the decent Tories.

Looks like I am soon to be Chair of my constituency LD Exec. My brief will be to get more Cllrs elected at parish and county level.

 

[Technics 1210]

Remainers simply do not believe in democracy. Best of 3, Second Referendum, Brexit win was invalid - blah blah blah.

They will never focus on where their campaign went wrong or the weaknesses of the EU, or the state of the EZ, or the legitimate concerns of leavers, nope, just the blame game cos they lost. Blaming social media instead of austerity is proof of this. Now they deliberately ignore the effect of Covid, trying to blame Brexit, again. No wonder they lost.

Remainers want one set of rules for Europeans and another for non Europeans. This is racism.

So glad I was alive to witness their loss in a true democratic exercise - one man one vote - and soon will see other countries leave the failed experiment called the EU.

 

[Robert]

This discussion is, in my opinion, irreconcilable.

Leavers “won’t admit they were misinformed and made a mistake” for a very simple reason: because they feel that they made an informed decision from their perspective, and that they didn’t make a mistake.

You think that they are wrong, and they think that you are equally wrong.

The UK now has genuine national sovereignty and the ultimate jurisdiction over its own laws. (Unlike Poland, which is currently locked in a bitter dispute with the EU over a particular legal decision.) Remainers don’t rate the concept nor the price of national and legal sovereignty, and on a daily basis they write off sovereignty as intangible and inconsequential — that is, naturally, why they are Remainers.

Remainers are content for the UK to be legally and rhetorically subordinate to a separate neoliberal supranational body, with the EU also getting unlimited and unmonitored border entry into the UK — Remainers do not care about these costs, or even consider them to be costs, and they don’t feel that these things affect them — in return, the UK gets favourable terms of continental trade from the EU, and it is easier for British people to study at college in a different country or to go on a European holiday.

Leavers, conversely, don’t know or care about a thing called Erasmus (which was, incidentally, being utilised by less than 0.5% of UK students aboard), and they don’t care about more easily going on holiday. Many Leavers didn’t get a university degree, can’t afford to go on a holiday, and have not even ventured outside of their local region of the country for years. We’ve all seen which areas voted to leave, and which voted to remain. There was a very clear and very obvious class divide in play.

The sense of national sovereignty, the communitarian/imagined idea of “nation”, and a Canada-Australia-New Zealand style of managed inward immigration, delivers a more important package for Leavers than the benefits of EU membership <I>as they see it.</I> Leavers, contrary to the controversial adage, actually *did* know what they were voting for.

Remainers and Leavers are two separate groups of people that have fundamentally different mindsets, beliefs, and systems of value. That’s ultimately all there is to it — and that’s why they will never agree.

A few more points.

If the EU is neoliberal, that’s because of us. Our influence. It was broadly socialist until we joined and began spreading our entrepreneurial spirit.

We were not in Schengen so we always had monitored borders with regard to EU citizens, who had to show their passports. Anybody who didn’t quickly get a job or a study place could have been deported. We chose not to bother to do so.

Getting a job in the EU, or moving there, is also going to be harder now. Not just study and holidays.

Otherwise, good summation.

 

[Technics 1210]

Getting a job or moving to the EU isn't going to be any harder than pre EU membership. Just a case of paperwork.

Plus given the stronger FX rate in the UK, more EU citizens will seek work in the EU, especially the youth demographic, than UK citizens in the EU. Most UK citizens in the EU are retirees for this reason.

 

[Technics 1210]

This is an oxymoron. The two terms preclude each other, like “republican monarchist”.

Liberalism is about personal freedom from state coercion, protected by law. Triumphs of liberalism therefore include Magna Carta, Glorious Revolution 1689, USA Constitution.

Fascist is an extreme authoritarian system where the state is deified and individuals are suppressed. Triumphs of fascism therefore include Mussolini and Hitler.

Liberals were defying the democratic right of leavers, and are constantly suppressing the views and ideals of others. There's no such thing as personal freedom because the state of the UK is such that society is polarised because personal freedom (such as voting) now comes with reprecussions, all thanks to Remainers.

Had Remainers gracefully accepted the Brexit result, instead of trying to over turn it, or work in unison for a better a society post Brexit, we'd be in a different place.

 

[IMMY69]

Reads like you are one of the decent Tories.

Looks like I am soon to be Chair of my constituency LD Exec. My brief will be to get more Cllrs elected at parish and county level.

That's fantastic!
You'll be in a position to do good things for your constituents..


Being in the housing sector I've always believed that a certain number of privately let homes should be let to social housing. However, the system as it currently stands is broken. From our experience we've often found ourselves acting as psychiatrists, taking late night calls from tenants with mental health issues.

The council only intervenes when it's an absolute emergency. So often we're left dealing with tenants with serious issues. If they are sectioned, they come back after a week or so, and then a few months later their health deteriorates again. It's extremely sad to see and exhausting to deal with but I am convinced
it be fixed but there needs to be a stronger connection between social housing and the private sector.

 

[Robert]

Liberals were defying the democratic right of leavers, and are constantly suppressing the views and ideals of others. There's no such thing as personal freedom because the state of the UK is such that society is polarised because personal freedom (such as voting) now comes with reprecussions, all thanks to Remainers.

Had Remainers gracefully accepted the Brexit result, instead of trying to over turn it, or work in unison for a better a society post Brexit, we'd be in a different place.

I don’t know what “defying the democratic rights of Leavers” means. It seems to be a non sequitur. The voters presented the MPs with a decision and the MPs had to decide what to do about it. This took a long time because the electorate told them to leave the EU but not where to go.

Of course there is personal freedom. You are in one of the freest societies in history.

 

[Robert]

That's fantastic!
You'll be in a position to do good things for your constituents..


Being in the housing sector I've always believed that a certain number of privately let homes should be let to social housing. However, the system as it currently stands is broken. From our experience we've often found ourselves acting as psychiatrists, taking late night calls from tenants with mental health issues.

The council only intervenes when it's an absolute emergency. So often we're left dealing with tenants with serious issues. If they are sectioned, they come back after a week or so, and then a few months later their health deteriorates again. It's extremely sad to see and exhausting to deal with but I am convinced
it be fixed but there needs to be a stronger connection between social housing and the private sector.

Well, I will be in a position to offer them the choice of better (IMO) representation. Up to them if they choose it.

Social housing is indeed exhausting. Round my way the Council have built a little estate of shipping containers turned into mini homes. Quite smart they look. The local Labourites are on their high horses talking about ghettos but it’s got to be better than the street, or temporary accommodation in a BbB where you have no secure tenancy.

 

[IMMY69]

Well, I will be in a position to offer them the choice of better (IMO) representation. Up to them if they choose it.

Social housing is indeed exhausting. Round my way the Council have built a little estate of shipping containers turned into mini homes. Quite smart they look. The local Labourites are on their high horses talking about ghettos but it’s got to be better than the street, or temporary accommodation in a BbB where you have no secure tenancy.

I know companies that went abroad to get funding for these schemes, container/caravan tho housing.
These houses work in theory but councils pay an average of ten percent higher then the market rent and allow companies to milk the returns

I know this is for another thread but if certain regulations were tweaked then we would have more affordable housing built by smaller, less greedy developers plus more private housing for those that need it.. I could discuss this all day long...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Getting a job or moving to the EU isn't going to be any harder than pre EU membership. Just a case of paperwork.

Plus given the stronger FX rate in the UK, more EU citizens will seek work in the EU, especially the youth demographic, than UK citizens in the EU. Most UK citizens in the EU are retirees for this reason.

You are coming up with lots of bluster and waffle, but waffle isn't going to drive trucks or get gas to the pumps. I'm sure there's lots of reasons for energy prices shooting up, HGV drivers all disappearing, and tradesmen complaining of materials shortage, but major businesses were warning about this before Brexit.

What's your advice now? Sit tight and hope it gets better?

 

[Technics 1210]

You are coming up with lots of bluster and waffle, but waffle isn't going to drive trucks or get gas to the pumps. I'm sure there's lots of reasons for energy prices shooting up, HGV drivers all disappearing, and tradesmen complaining of materials shortage, but major businesses were warning about this before Brexit.

What's your advice now? Sit tight and hope it gets better?

The GBP is stronger vs the Euro which is why EU citizens choose to work and do the '******' jobs in the UK. It's not bluff and bluster, go read up on simple economics . They earn more compare to back home when earning in the UK.

Stop the nonsense with the lack of HGV drivers down to Brexit, it's a fact that covid lockdown prevented 1000s of trainees from qualifying and obtaining their HGV license in the UK

There's an international problem with supply chains, nothing to do with Brexit.

My advise is to get on with it instead of crying over Farage. And spinning yarns.

 

[Technics 1210]

I don’t know what “defying the democratic rights of Leavers” means. It seems to be a non sequitur. The voters presented the MPs with a decision and the MPs had to decide what to do about it. This took a long time because the electorate told them to leave the EU but not where to go.

Of course there is personal freedom. You are in one of the freest societies in history.

Yes defying the democratic right of the leavers, their vote, their choice. Don't forget the 'referendum is not legally binding' and '2nd referendum' battle cries that lasted a couple of years, all in an attempt to thwart a democratic result. This is why it took a long time.

The people voted to leave, simple. No deal was the answer, just MPs like Chuka and Thorbury had other ideas.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The GBP is stronger vs the Euro which is why EU citizens choose to work and do the '******' jobs in the UK. It's not bluff and bluster, go read up on simple economics . They earn more compare to back home when earning in the UK.

Stop the nonsense with the lack of HGV drivers down to Brexit, it's a fact that covid lockdown prevented 1000s of trainees from qualifying and obtaining their HGV license in the UK

There's an international problem with supply chains, nothing to do with Brexit.

My advise is to get on with it instead of crying over Farage. And spinning yarns.

Yes, yes, it's all gone to pot because of Covid despite what industry leaders and their HR associations have been saying in the press every day. They must all be making it up and you are the only one with your finger on the pulse.

Mate if you can drive a truck head over to the north east, that would be more useful than posting on here. Or get in touch with your pal Nigel and see if he can drive one. I'm not racist, would have no problem with a UKIP trucker delivering to my local Tesco.

 

[Technics 1210]

Yes, yes, it's all gone to pot because of Covid despite what industry leaders and their HR associations have been saying in the press every day. They must all be making it up and you are the only one with your finger on the pulse.

Mate if you can drive a truck head over to the north east, that would be more useful than posting on here. Or get in touch with your pal Nigel and see if he can drive one. I'm not racist, would have no problem with a UKIP trucker delivering to my local Tesco.

Industry leaders who a pro Remain, ahhh yes, non-bias reporting. Why don't you talk about business that are prospering due to Brexit?

There's no fuel shortages up north, south east almost fully back in flow - more scare stories, again. Supply chain problems are worldwide. Don't deny it.

What is stopping EU citizens from working in the UK?

Get over it, Brexit won, we're out, crying over Farage ain't gonna help you anymore. And yes you are a closet racist in my view, after all you are happy with one set of rules for EU citizens, and another for non-EU citizens. The very definition of racial discrimination.

Happy fueling.

 

[Robert]

The GBP is stronger vs the Euro which is why EU citizens choose to work and do the '******' jobs in the UK. It's not bluff and bluster, go read up on simple economics . They earn more compare to back home when earning in the UK.

HGV drivers gone, slaughtermen gone, fruit pickers gone.

 

[Technics 1210]

HGV drivers gone, slaughtermen gone, fruit pickers gone.

Whats stopping them from coming back?

 

[Robert]

The people voted to leave, simple. No deal was the answer, just MPs like Chuka and Thorbury had other ideas.

Well, that really would have hurt imports and exports, stretched supply lines, risked food security - and broken the international peace treaty with Ireland.

At least this way, we have a thin free trade deal with some goods such as car parts, and the GFA is protected for the moment.

 

[Robert]

Whats stopping them from coming back?

They need work visas, and contracts protecting their employment for a significant time.

 

[Technics 1210]

They need work visas, and contracts protecting their employment for a significant time.

Just like non-EU citizens then. A fair and indiscriminate immigration policy.

 

[James]

Had Remainers gracefully accepted the Brexit result, instead of trying to over turn it, or work in unison for a better a society post Brexit, we'd be in a different place.

A peculiar trend of voting patterns/outputs being strongly questioned and results coming under severe scrutiny — in a bid to get the course of history changed — has recently developed in the UK and US. It’s not really something that we have seen before.

Brexit was first; Donald Trump’s win (“Russian meddling”, followed by a massive investigation that lasted most of his presidency) was the next one; then Corbynites went for the conspiracy theory of the Tory Party apparently fixing the postal voting system in order to win a majority in 2019; and, most recently, there was a really weird hard pause on the electoral college ticker and Biden/Trump votes stopped being counted at the expected rates — it took a bizarre five days for an outcome of the race to be announced.

Could this be called “post-democracy”.

 

[Robert]

A peculiar trend of voting patterns/outputs being strongly questioned and results coming under severe scrutiny — in a bid to get the course of history changed — has recently developed in the UK and US. It’s not really something that we have seen before.

Brexit was first; Donald Trump’s win (“Russian meddling”, followed by a massive investigation that lasted most of his presidency) was the next one; then Corbynites went for the conspiracy theory of the Tory Party apparently fixing the postal voting system in order to win a majority in 2019; and, most recently, there was a really weird hard pause on the electoral college ticker and Biden/Trump votes stopped being counted at the expected rates — it took a bizarre five days for an outcome of the race to be announced.

Could this be called “post-democracy”.

Deeply scary thought.

Every government tries to rig the boundary lines to help themselves at the next election of course.

Conspiracy theory abounds so much now that no authority is trusted. Half the Republican vote thinks Trump won. That’s problematic. I posted this scenario on another thread…..

1. Trump runs in 2024

2. Trump loses. Trump refuses to accept result.

3. This time the GOP Senators are so scared that they don’t confirm the result.

4. Mass disobedience, riots, shooting, martial law.

5. Civil war.

Maybe liberalism has had its day as a philosophy. China shows that capitalism and a good living standard can flourish in an authoritarian state. Just don’t be different, like the Uyghur Muslims, don’t criticise the state, don’t mention the Cultural Revolution and you will be ok. Maybe this is the next step for the world.

 

[James]

Deeply scary thought.

Every government tries to rig the boundary lines to help themselves at the next election of course.

Conspiracy theory abounds so much now that no authority is trusted. Half the Republican vote thinks Trump won. That’s problematic. I posted this scenario on another thread…..

1. Trump runs in 2024

2. Trump loses. Trump refuses to accept result.

3. This time the GOP Senators are so scared that they don’t confirm the result.

4. Mass disobedience, riots, shooting, martial law.

5. Civil war.

Maybe liberalism has had its day as a philosophy. China shows that capitalism and a good living standard can flourish in an authoritarian state. Just don’t be different, like the Uyghur Muslims, don’t criticise the state, don’t mention the Cultural Revolution and you will be ok. Maybe this is the next step for the world.

It’s possible that the global explosion of social media will turn out to have been the death knell for traditional liberal democracy.

 

[Robert]

Just like non-EU citizens then. A fair and indiscriminate immigration policy.

Ok, but they are not here, so it is not working.

 

[Technics 1210]

Ok, but they are not here, so it is not working.

They are free to apply. Had a choice to stay too. I am sure Covid effect has slowed down the process too.

It will get better, change is never instant.

 

[Robert]

It’s possible that the global explosion of social media will turn out to have been the death knell for traditional liberal democracy.

The PRC says - what is the use of democracy? What do the people do with it? Elect Trump. The people cannot be trusted to do the smart thing for the country. Better to have a powerful state to protect and guide the people.

 

[Technics 1210]

The PRC says - what is the use of democracy? What do the people do with it? Elect Trump. The people cannot be trusted to do the smart thing for the country. Better to have a powerful state to protect and guide the people.

Why do you expect people to do the smart thing for their country when every voter considers what will be better for themselves as an individual? Yet any time there is a sense of nationalism, it’s the left who come out with ‘racist/facist’ tags.

Since 2008, austerity worldwide has been responsible for ‘shock’ results worldwide. Social media is just an excuse.

You talk of Trump, he was facing Clinton, the best 2 candidates in 2016, one a TV presenter, the other damaged goods - this is not the fault of Social media, but the political class and system - how about focus on changing that? In UK, it’s the same old boring 2 way race between Tories and Labour, how about we change that? Decade after decade, it’s the same old nonsense in politics. War and debt, war and debt.

Now USA have Biden who is arguably worse than Trump, and UK have Boris who is a clown, what are the alternatives please?

Social media is just a platform for information, just like the papers, the TV, and Radio - the only difference is the government cannot control the agenda on Social media. Don’t forget MSM - perception is reality.

 

[Robert]

Why do you expect people to do the smart thing for their country when every voter considers what will be better for themselves as an individual? Yet any time there is a sense of nationalism, it’s the left who come out with ‘racist/facist’ tags.

Since 2008, austerity worldwide has been responsible for ‘shock’ results worldwide. Social media is just an excuse.

You talk of Trump, he was facing Clinton, the best 2 candidates in 2016, one a TV presenter, the other damaged goods - this is not the fault of Social media, but the political class and system - how about focus on changing that? In UK, it’s the same old boring 2 way race between Tories and Labour, how about we change that? Decade after decade, it’s the same old nonsense in politics. War and debt, war and debt.

Now USA have Biden who is arguably worse than Trump, and UK have Boris who is a clown, what are the alternatives please?

Exactly the PRC’s point.

Democracy in USA and UK has stopped producing capable leaders.

Maybe democracy’s time is over.

 

[Technics 1210]

Exactly the PRC’s point.

Democracy in USA and UK has stopped producing capable leaders.

Maybe democracy’s time is over.

So had Remain won, and Clinton won, would the PRC have the same opinion?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Industry leaders who a pro Remain, ahhh yes, non-bias reporting. Why don't you talk about business that are prospering due to Brexit?

There's no fuel shortages up north, south east almost fully back in flow - more scare stories, again. Supply chain problems are worldwide. Don't deny it.

What is stopping EU citizens from working in the UK?

Get over it, Brexit won, we're out, crying over Farage ain't gonna help you anymore. And yes you are a closet racist in my view, after all you are happy with one set of rules for EU citizens, and another for non-EU citizens. The very definition of racial discrimination.

Happy fueling.

There's no fuel shortages up north because the price of refilling has jumped 5p/litre in the space of a couple of weeks. Gas and electric prices are going to rise by £2000/year according to some estimates. Don't you think all these rather important inflationary factors will have an effect down the line? Or maybe like your friend [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] you think everything can be solved by floating stuff over the sea?

 

[Technics 1210]

There's no fuel shortages up north because the price of refilling has jumped 5p/litre in the space of a couple of weeks. Gas and electric prices are going to rise by £2000/year according to some estimates. Don't you think all these rather important inflationary factors will have an effect down the line? Or maybe like your friend [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] you think everything can be solved by floating stuff over the sea?

These inflationary factors are worldwide; the price of oil is hitting 3 year highs. Nothing to do with Brexit.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

These inflationary factors are worldwide; the price of oil is hitting 3 year highs. Nothing to do with Brexit.

Why is the price of oil hitting 3 year highs? Could it be fossil fuels have been written off too quickly?

 

[Technics 1210]

Why is the price of oil hitting 3 year highs? Could it be fossil fuels have been written off too quickly?

All that QE during Covid in 2020 has to be absorbed somewhere in the financial system!

 

[James]

Why is the price of oil hitting 3 year highs? Could it be fossil fuels have been written off too quickly?

Yes, without a doubt. Wind power has not been delivering for the last 2 years now, meaning that the demand for fossil fuels has increased. There has also been a post-pandemic spike in travel and holidaying, so at the moment everyone is buying oil.

 

[Robert]

So why aren’t we taking about the NIP?

Under the terms presented by the EU, this posits NI as the most attractive place for importers and exporters in the UK as in effect NI will be in the Single Market.

But it means that the ECJ will still have authority over a part of the UK and the Brexit ultras are ideologically opposed to that.

Will they wreck the NIP to get rid of ECJ influence? If so, that means a border on the island of Ireland, a return to violence, and likely retaliatory trade war with the EU.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Oil comes predominantly from the ME. Gas comes predominantly from Russia. If we are going to be relying on foreign powers we actively disapprove of, then the road ahead is going to be a hard one. Might need to get those coal mines in the north east up and running again before too long. Dirty work though, I'm not sure the modern Brit will fancy it much, someone might need to have a quiet word in Priti Patel's ear.

 

[IMMY69]

The Chinese are driving the commodities to insane levels and want to start an inflation in the USA by making sure all the items they buy are priced higher like textiles etc
And USA has printed 40 percent of the usd in the last 18 months
It may bring the value of usd down and with it subsequently the price of pound and euros and other world currencies to shoot up
A game is just starting as commodities markets go haywire...

Shortages in coal supply plus limit on Russia Gas supply has caused fuel prices to rocket. Russia has opened up its pipes now so this may ease fuel prices for awhile

Price hike more to do with QE, China strategy. issues with supplies then Brexit.

 

[IMMY69]

I'm beginning to think that Covid too is a convenient tool for these governments

 

[Technics 1210]

Ha ha and a big HA!

Save the drama, and start talking NUCLEAR energy. Oh wait, Greta and her lefty flank of merry woke wet wipe soliders might have to say a thing or 2 about that.

Gas comes from oil. Russia has been exporting gas to the entire European continent for decades and you lot think Russia is scared of NATO? Russia just has to pull the plug and Europe is toast. It was Putin’s intervention a few weeks ago that resulted in the price of Gas stabilising, then dropping.

UK sold its soul to the highest bidder long before UK joined the EU. Manufacturing to China, Energy to Russia and ME, Finance to the USA, Immigration and trade to the EU.

This is the price you pay for Western capitalism, oops, economic slavery.

You sell your soul to the devil you don’t know than the devil you do, for a paltry price - debt.

But wait, lets blame Brexit.

 

[Technics 1210]

Yes, without a doubt. Wind power has not been delivering for the last 2 years now, meaning that the demand for fossil fuels has increased. There has also been a post-pandemic spike in travel and holidaying, so at the moment everyone is buying oil.

You may find this interesting:

Well, darn it! I just learned something that will force me to stop using one of my favorite sayings coined by Jon Huntsman, Sr.: “Use old dinosaurs, not new trees.” It indicates his preference for plastic over paper.

Oil and natural gas do not come from fossilized dinosaurs! Thus, they are not fossil fuels. That’s a myth. According to Wikipedia, the term “fossil fuel” was first used by German chemist Caspar Neumann in 1759. It was subsequently used more ubiquitously in the early 1900s to give people the idea that petroleum, coal and natural gas come from ancient living things, making them a natural substance.

https://www.plasticstoday.com/materials/sorry-folks-oil-does-not-come-dinosaurs

Simply, the term fossil fuel is used to add value to oil.

 

[Technics 1210]

So had Remain won, and Clinton won, would the PRC have the same opinion?

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] Would be grateful if you could answer this question.

 

[Technics 1210]

So why aren’t we taking about the NIP?

Under the terms presented by the EU, this posits NI as the most attractive place for importers and exporters in the UK as in effect NI will be in the Single Market.

But it means that the ECJ will still have authority over a part of the UK and the Brexit ultras are ideologically opposed to that.

Will they wreck the NIP to get rid of ECJ influence? If so, that means a border on the island of Ireland, a return to violence, and likely retaliatory trade war with the EU.

The majority of the UK don’t care about NI because of IRA terrorism during the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

Plus the GFA only serves to prove that the UK government are willing to negotiate with terrorists, and grant them immunity from prosecution. Good old Tony Blair.

 

[Technics 1210]

A peculiar trend of voting patterns/outputs being strongly questioned and results coming under severe scrutiny — in a bid to get the course of history changed — has recently developed in the UK and US. It’s not really something that we have seen before.

Brexit was first; Donald Trump’s win (“Russian meddling”, followed by a massive investigation that lasted most of his presidency) was the next one; then Corbynites went for the conspiracy theory of the Tory Party apparently fixing the postal voting system in order to win a majority in 2019; and, most recently, there was a really weird hard pause on the electoral college ticker and Biden/Trump votes stopped being counted at the expected rates — it took a bizarre five days for an outcome of the race to be announced.

Could this be called “post-democracy”.

This is not a peculiar trend but an expected trend. The establishment will pull all the excuses when the ‘democratic’ result is against the agenda.

The ‘first past the post system’ is flawed, it always was, it ensured the rise of any opposition would be met with a weighted system. This is why the EU referendum was the first true democratic exercise in the UK - one man one vote - and when the establishment lost, they come out with humpty dumpty nonsense that democracy is dead and social media is to blame.

These muppets talks of Hitler, remind us of the Holocaust, remind us of the sacrifices in WW1 & 2, but will never address the truth - Austerity leads to facism, which was the reason Hitler was excelled and propelled into power.

No lets blame Social media, that is, if Remain and Clinton had not won.

 

[Robert]

The majority of the UK don’t care about NI because of IRA terrorism during the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

Plus the GFA only serves to prove that the UK government are willing to negotiate with terrorists, and grant them immunity from prosecution. Good old Tony Blair.

No, it serves to prevent thousands of people from being murdered.

Anyone with an iota of humanity will see that it has to be protected.

 

[Technics 1210]

No, it serves to prevent thousands of people from being murdered.

Anyone with an iota of humanity will see that it has to be protected.

Prevent thousands from being murdered by terrorists, the IRA. This is a fact.

Anyone can see the UK government will negotiate with terrorists; thus protecting civilians when the borders are shared. Yet, when the borders are not shared, the UK government is happy to wage an illegal war, killing millions of innocent, under the guise of 'war on terror'.

Where and what is this iota of hunamity you speak of?

 

[Technics 1210]

Tony Blair insisted on Tuesday that the Northern Ireland peace process could have collapsed if he had not allowed letters to be sent to suspected IRA fugitives telling them that they were no longer wanted by the police.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...fends-on-the-run-letters-ira-northern-ireland

Don't belive the hype folks. The GFA was an agreement between the UK government and IRA terrorists which offered immunity to those responsible for killing 1000s of innocent folk.

And to think we must remain in the EU to safeguard this agreement.

Screw the GFA.

 

[Technics 1210]

To summarise, Blair granted immunity to IRA terrorists, but waged an illegal war on alleged terrorists and innocent civilians in the ME.

If it's not Liberals, it's Labour. This is the same guy (Blair) who ushered in unfettered immigration from an Eastern communist block.