British Politics: the Mega-Thread

[Robert]

Errr... HS2 is an infrastructure project.

 

[Robert]

What? People get taxed 40% rate on a 30k income? Vow! Is that number inclusive of all taxes, i.e. income tax, NHS etc etc?

No, it cuts in at £45,001. People earning £150K or more pay 45%.

We pay about the lowest income tax in Western Europe which is why we have worse health care and railways than many.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Errr... HS2 is an infrastructure project.

True in the technical sense, in reality it is about awarding contracts to the highest bidder.

 

[Robert]

True in the technical sense, in reality it is about awarding contracts to the highest bidder.

Better than awarding to the lowest bidder surely? That’s what caused the Carillion collapse, they couldn’t deliver the services they underbid for.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Better than awarding to the lowest bidder surely? That’s what caused the Carillion collapse, they couldn’t deliver the services they underbid for.

True, but Corbyns idea of QE to the public is nationalising services. So the Government is the employer, not Carillion.

 

[Robert]

True, but Corbyns idea of QE to the public is nationalising services. So the Government is the employer, not Carillion.

So what gets produced and sold? How do we get into surplus and start reducing debt?

 

[R3verse Swing]

So what gets produced and sold? How do we get into surplus and start reducing debt?

Manufacturing.

QE to the banks does not reduce deficit, any more than QE to society. But QE to society does encourage manufacturing.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Stormont talks collapse.

Once again, DUP bigotry on full display. All in favour of "alignment" with the rest of the UK unless of course it involves treating the native and native culture the way it would be treated on the mainland i.e Wales or Scotland.

Not a surprise anyway. Unionism continues to dig its own grave, burying its head in the sand believing if they shout "No Surrender" they'll convince a majority in NI that the ensuing disaster that is Brexit will convince people the UK is a better option.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

What? People get taxed 40% rate on a 30k income? Vow! Is that number inclusive of all taxes, i.e. income tax, NHS etc etc?

Of course there is a high sales tax (maybe called something else in the UK) rate on top of this for all purchases, I am sure. How much is that?

Also, how long do unemployment benefits last?

People earning between 11k and 45k get taxed at 20% but then there is something called 'national insurance' which is basically just an additional tax and this adds another 12%.

If you earn between 45k and 150k income tax is 40% + 12% or 14% national insurance.

Our sales tax is called VAT and for most things this is 20%. To fill up our cars we have to pay 60% fuel tax. To use our cars we have to pay a yearly road tax called vehicle excise duty and this can be between £10 and £500 depending on how big your car engine is.

Moreover when you buy/sell a house there are additional taxes etc etc.

 

[Robert]

Manufacturing.

QE to the banks does not reduce deficit, any more than QE to society. But QE to society does encourage manufacturing.

How?

 

[R3verse Swing]

How?

QE to society would encourage local businesses to produce goods.

QE to banks, means they borrow at .5%, then by bonds at 1.5%, pocket 1% profit, and bolster the stock market with the original loan.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=141580]USofA[/MENTION] Roughly,

If you're on a 30K wage in the UK and make around £2500 per month, you only take £1900 home.

If you make 35K annually and £2900 per month, you take home just £2140.

You have to make around 45/46K to take home what you're meant to when you're on a 30K wage minus the tax

 

[shaz619]

When you have a lot of responsibilities you will struggle to get by even on a 30-35K salary in the UK due to the tax cuts, however I encourage youngsters to strive for a career in either Dentistry or Optometry; within a short amount of time you will make loads of money and your work hours are also very very flexible especially if you go locum.

 

[Markhor]

Labour MP Paul Flynn calls for the legalisation of medical marijuana.

A 2016 poll by Sky show 72% of Britons are in favour, but our government refuses to change the law.

 

[shaz619]

Pharmacy is a good career, although there are so many people doing it now that am not sure how lucrative it is in the present but probably still better in terms of earning potential right out the blocks compared to other fields. Uncle Markhor my be able to elaborate a bit more on that.

 

[shaz619]

Labour MP Paul Flynn calls for the legalisation of medical marijuana.

A 2016 poll by Sky show 72% of Britons are in favour, but our government refuses to change the law.

He has everyone's vote in Birmingham

 

[Markhor]

Pharmacy is a good career, although there are so many people doing it now that am not sure how lucrative it is in the present but probably still better in terms of earning potential right out the blocks compared to other fields. Uncle Markhor my be able to elaborate a bit more on that.

Worth doing if you want to go into GP practices and work as an prescribing pharmacist. Community pharmacy is facing cutbacks though whilst locum pay has declined.

 

[USofA]

People earning between 11k and 45k get taxed at 20% but then there is something called 'national insurance' which is basically just an additional tax and this adds another 12%.

If you earn between 45k and 150k income tax is 40% + 12% or 14% national insurance.

Our sales tax is called VAT and for most things this is 20%. To fill up our cars we have to pay 60% fuel tax. To use our cars we have to pay a yearly road tax called vehicle excise duty and this can be between £10 and £500 depending on how big your car engine is.

Moreover when you buy/sell a house there are additional taxes etc etc.

Thanks for the explanation. Thanks also to [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION].

Oh boy! your govt. is taking a cut every which way you turn. They are what we in the US call nickel and diming.

Your taxes are high. That VAT at 20% sticks out too. To think I am not happy with my 8% sales tax!

 

[USofA]

[MENTION=141580]USofA[/MENTION] Roughly,

If you're on a 30K wage in the UK and make around £2500 per month, you only take £1900 home.

If you make 35K annually and £2900 per month, you take home just £2140.

You have to make around 45/46K to take home what you're meant to when you're on a 30K wage minus the tax

That is roughly about 25% in taxes. This without the car gas(fuel) tax, road tax, etc etc and they you get to the VAT. How do people have disposable income at this rate? Unbelievable.

 

[shaz619]

That is roughly about 25% in taxes. This without the car gas(fuel) tax, road tax, etc etc and they you get to the VAT. How do people have disposable income at this rate? Unbelievable.

It's very tough to save up and it could be two decades before you become a home owner that's why the best thing people can do is focus on their business or career and try to make the best of a not so good situation by trying to grow individually.

 

[James]

That is roughly about 25% in taxes. This without the car gas(fuel) tax, road tax, etc etc and they you get to the VAT. How do people have disposable income at this rate? Unbelievable.

Disposable income is quite a hard thing to come by at times. In my household, me and the wife earn over £50K combined and we have a little bit of disposable, but most of that goes into savings and investments. Money to just squander on social stuff / shopping for luxuries is virtually nonexistent. That is why a lot of businesses are winding up over here.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Thanks for the explanation. Thanks also to [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION].

Oh boy! your govt. is taking a cut every which way you turn. They are what we in the US call nickel and diming.

Your taxes are high. That VAT at 20% sticks out too. To think I am not happy with my 8% sales tax!

You have to balance it out. I pay tax, most if goes to my State Pension and NHS (Health service).

In USA you have to pay for Health insurance on top, which could end up being higher.

 

[Abdullah719]

Boris is the future.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We live in remarkable times <a href="https://t.co/0OEtppBLqS">pic.twitter.com/0OEtppBLqS</a></p>— Michael Deacon (@MichaelPDeacon) <a href="https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/963755157094850560?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 14, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[USofA]

You have to balance it out. I pay tax, most if goes to my State Pension and NHS (Health service).

In USA you have to pay for Health insurance on top, which could end up being higher.

Majority of us get our health care through our employers. Which means the company picks up a good chunk of the cost. So even with income taxes, Social Security, property taxes, I would still say overall we get to keep more of our money. No matter the tax bracket.

 

[USofA]

It's very tough to save up and it could be two decades before you become a home owner that's why the best thing people can do is focus on their business or career and try to make the best of a not so good situation by trying to grow individually.

Disposable income is quite a hard thing to come by at times. In my household, me and the wife earn over £50K combined and we have a little bit of disposable, but most of that goes into savings and investments. Money to just squander on social stuff / shopping for luxuries is virtually nonexistent. That is why a lot of businesses are winding up over here.

That is tough. This with the lowest taxes in Europe. Surprising no push for a change....or is there? People should get to keep more of what they earn.

 

[R3verse Swing]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]

Three contractors are bidding to refurbish the fence at 10 Downing street. One is from London another is from Liverpool, and the third is some bloke from Wolverhampton.

All three go with a Downing Street official to examine the fence. The Cockney contractor takes out a tape measure and does some measuring, then works some figures with a pencil. "Well," he says, "I figure the job will run about £900. £400 for materials, £400 for my crew, and £100 profit for me."

The Scouse contractor also does some measuring and figuring, then says, "I can do this job for £700. £300 for materials, £200 for my crew, and £200 profit for me."

The bloke from Wolverhampton doesn't bother to measure or figure, but leans over to the Downing Street official and whispers, "£2,700."

The official, incredulous, says, "You didn't even measure like the others! How did you come up with such a high figure?"

The bloke whispers back, "£1000 for me, £1000 for you, and we hire the guy from Liverpool to do the job."

"Done!" replies the government official..... And so Carillion was born!!

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=146465]R3verse Swing[/MENTION],

As a Carillion ex-employee of ten years’ service, I feel a certain amount of loyalty to them. They gave me £7000 worth of training and I now have professional standing. But I understand the satire.

 

[Robert]

Fourteen local elections yesterday.

Three Lib Dem gains from Tory.

Otherwise everyone held onto their seat.

The good news is the collapse of UKIP everywhere. I guess Tories and Labour have reabsorbed these voters.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Fourteen local elections yesterday.

Three Lib Dem gains from Tory.

Otherwise everyone held onto their seat.

The good news is the collapse of UKIP everywhere. I guess Tories and Labour have reabsorbed these voters.

Collapse of UKIP started with the Brexit result. One of the reasons why the EU referendum was offered was to subdue the rise of right-wing politics (UKIP).

 

[shaz619]

That is tough. This with the lowest taxes in Europe. Surprising no push for a change....or is there? People should get to keep more of what they earn.

There's always push for change but it's one extreme or another which is why we have a hung parliament and the country is in disarray in general to be honest there's no sense of direction

 

[Markhor]

Collapse of UKIP started with the Brexit result. One of the reasons why the EU referendum was offered was to subdue the rise of right-wing politics (UKIP).

Speaking of UKIP's collapse:

UKIP members have passed a no confidence motion today and Henry Bolton is removed as party leader.

So that's four leaders in two years.

 

[Robert]

Speaking of UKIP's collapse:

UKIP members have passed a no confidence motion today and Henry Bolton is removed as party leader.

So that's four leaders in two years.

I read they are in receivership now. I would be amazed if they can even hang onto council seats.

 

[Markhor]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rbyn-attacks-islamophobia-during-mosque-visit

Good stuff from Jeremy Corbyn and good initiative from these mosques participating in this event.

Muslim women are facing routine racist abuse on the streets of the UK, Jeremy Corbyn has said while visiting mosques participating in a nationwide open day to build bridges across communities.

“Islamophobia is a real problem in our society, as is other forms of racism like antisemitism and racism against people of Afro-Caribbean heritage,” the Labour leader said at the Finsbury Park mosque in north London.

“I’ve held meetings with Muslim women who have told me horrific stories of routine racist abuse on our streets. If women are abused because they are wearing a headscarf, then it is a wrong against them and it is a wrong against all of us.”

Finsbury Park mosque was among more than 200 Muslim places of worship to take part in Visit My Mosque day, organised by the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB). From Inverness to Cornwall, mosques invited people of other faiths and no faith to witness prayers, ask questions, read the Qur’an, take part in hijab and henna demonstrations and eat traditional food in an effort to debunk myths about Islam.

For the Finsbury Park mosque and nearby Muslim Welfare Centre, it was the first set-piece open day since a terror attack last June, in which Darren Osborne drove his van into a group of people leaving prayers, killing one person and injuring 12 others. Osborne was jailed for a minimum of 43 years earlier this month for the attack, which the judge said was motivated by an “ideology of hate towards Muslims”.

Mohammed Mahmoud, the imam of the Muslim Welfare Centre who was hailed as a hero after the attack for urging people in the crowd not to harm Osborne and delivering him to the police, said the attack “realised people’s fears and left the community in shock”.

Mahmoud, who gave evidence at Osborne’s trial, said “any person would have done what I did. The effect [of the attack] on me is irrelevant compared to the victims and the bereaved.”

He added: “The rise of extremist rightwing groups is a very serious threat not just to Muslims but to all minorities, and in fact to all Britons, and to the interwoven fabric that holds this country together. The way to combat this is to have open and frank dialogue; barring and banning can only breed further hate and division.”

Although the Muslim Welfare Centre had been holding open days for more than 30 years, the coordinated nationwide initiative was important because “most people have a negative perception of what a mosque is without ever going inside one”, he said.

Research recently conducted on behalf of the MCB found that 90% of Britons have never visited a mosque, and one in four said they did not know any Muslims. Almost three-quarters have never been into another faith’s place of worship.

“This is not good for social cohesion. In a time of increasing intolerance and rising misunderstanding of faith communities, we should all be opening our doors to others,” said Harun Khan, the secretary general of the MCB.

Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary and a north London MP, held a private meeting on Sunday with women from the Finsbury Park mosque to discuss their concerns about rising abuse and attacks. “Muslim women are particularly vulnerable,” she said.

Fatima, a volunteer at the mosque who declined to give her full name, said it was a “scary time” for Muslim women.

“Politicians talk about the lack of integration, but women are frightened to leave their homes. Many women feel marginalised and judged, and ostracised because of their faith,” she said.

Visitors to the mosque – once associated with the radical cleric Abu Hamza but now a model of community relations – were given red roses, copies of the Qur’an and headscarves as gifts.

For David, 72, who described himself as an atheist, it was his first time inside a mosque. “I wanted to educate myself. It has changed my views. I thought none of them wanted to integrate, but they’re not like that at all. And the food is good.”

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] you might like this snippet.

 

[Markhor]

Hearing too much loose talk about the Good Friday Agreement from Brexiteers, namely Daniel Hannan, Kate Hoey and Owen Paterson.

The latter supported an article on Twitter that the GFA has "run its course" - despite Paterson being a former NI Secretary !

What do you make of this [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] [MENTION=7898]Gabbar Singh[/MENTION].

 

[Yossarian]

Hearing too much loose talk about the Good Friday Agreement from Brexiteers, namely Daniel Hannan, Kate Hoey and Owen Paterson.

The latter supported an article on Twitter that the GFA has "run its course" - despite Paterson being a former NI Secretary !

What do you make of this [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] [MENTION=7898]Gabbar Singh[/MENTION].

Break the GFA, or even try to change it without agreement by both sides, which won't be easy considering how difficult it was to negotiate in the first place, and you are on the road back to The Troubles, back to the days of the Provisional IRA, INLA, UVA, UDA and other terrorist groups.

Any form of border checks, or even electronic monitoring, breaks the GFA. Besides, even any electronic surveillance equipment and structures would be targeted by opponents of cross-border checks or surveillance.

In last December's agreement on the first phase of the Brexit negotiations, Britain and the EU both gave a commitment to not do anything that would jeopardize the GFA

 

[Robert]

Hearing too much loose talk about the Good Friday Agreement from Brexiteers, namely Daniel Hannan, Kate Hoey and Owen Paterson.

The latter supported an article on Twitter that the GFA has "run its course" - despite Paterson being a former NI Secretary !

What do you make of this [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] [MENTION=7898]Gabbar Singh[/MENTION].

They know the GFA is the stumbling block to their dream of leaving the CU and are attacking it as not fit for purpose.

Their Brexit dogma is more important than the lives of Irish people and Britons too. They would sacrifice that fragile and hard-won peace that the Taoiseachs, the Ulster MPs, the paramilitaries, Major and Blair worked so hard for, never losing hope in spite of seemingly insurmountable differences.

Shame on them all!

If I were an Ulster proddy I would feel like London is pulling up the ladder, and would think about seceding from the Union, reunifying Ireland and staying in the EU.

 

[R3verse Swing]

The Good Friday agreement is the perfect example of how to negotiate with terrorists. (Keep in mind the Western narrative of "we do not negotiate with terrorists")

- Bring them to the table.
- Negotiate.
- Grant terrorists immunity from prosecution. (Well done Tony Blair!)
- Promote a terrorist to a position of power in government (Martin McGuinness)
- Anoint Martin McGuinness for sainthood after his death.

If all it takes is border control to destroy the Good Friday Agreement, then let’s get on with it. The Border between NI and Ireland never had any relevance to the Good Friday Agreement, was never mentioned months after Brexit, it was only after the realisation of Brexit, did the EU play this silly border card – because EU will try everything in their books to thwart Brexit.

 

[Robert]

The Border between NI and Ireland never had any relevance to the Good Friday Agreement, was never mentioned months after Brexit, it was only after the realisation of Brexit, did the EU play this silly border card – because EU will try everything in their books to thwart Brexit.

It was mentioned before the Referendum, and was a factor in my switching from Leave to Remain at the eleventh hour. I would not see my father's people suffer anew.

 

[R3verse Swing]

How does a hard border change anything? Extra checks/times to cross the border?

Gaining nationalities across border isn't an issue either.

This border issue just doesn't make sense, in that, it's not really an issue.

 

[s28]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Bombshell London local elections poll -- Theresa May 'could lose in three flagships" - Via <a href="https://twitter.com/QMUL?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@QMUL</a> & <a href="https://twitter.com/philipjcowley?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@philipjcowley</a> <a href="https://t.co/3BkL2Ojbmv">https://t.co/3BkL2Ojbmv</a></p>— Joe Murphy (@JoeMurphyLondon) <a href="https://twitter.com/JoeMurphyLondon/status/966273177855897600?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">21 February 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Robert]

How does a hard border change anything? Extra checks/times to cross the border?

Gaining nationalities across border isn't an issue either.

This border issue just doesn't make sense, in that, it's not really an issue.

Because there will be checkpoints. Armed guards. Increased militarisation. Else immigrants from the EU will be able to walk into post-EU Ulster. That will look like the Barsteward Brits up to their old tricks to Republicans. At the very least, the border will rekindle anger.

Because a lot of people will go out of business. That will make people angry too.

Because a million Catholics in Ulster will now have to show passports to visit their auntie down the road instead of just walking there or boating there.

Because it will recreate the us-vs-them mentality in which violence grows.

Believe me, this is a bomb planted in the Peace Process by English Nationalists and the Irish won't forgive.

Help me out here @Donald Cozzie...

 

[Robert]

Maybe they can get round it by moving the border to the ports. Anything coming from the EU to Ulster will be held, searched and taxed. Anything to the Republic is waved through.

Smugglers' paradise.

So more big crime.

 

[s28]

Looking forward to this BBC Question Time

John Prescott doesn't pull his punches
Ash Sarkar is a great mouthy muslim woman anarcho-communist (or whatever she is)

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Full <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/bbcqt?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#bbcqt</a> line-up this week: <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonLewis?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@BrandonLewis</a>, <a href="https://twitter.com/johnprescott?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@johnprescott</a>, <a href="https://twitter.com/CamillaTominey?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@CamillaTominey</a>, <a href="https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@AyoCaesar</a> and <a href="https://twitter.com/Juergen_Maier?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Juergen_Maier</a><br>10.45pm on <a href="https://twitter.com/BBCOne?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@BBCOne</a> and <a href="https://twitter.com/bbc5live?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@bbc5live</a> <a href="https://t.co/8ZZ8pboZ6w">pic.twitter.com/8ZZ8pboZ6w</a></p>— BBC Question Time (@bbcquestiontime) <a href="https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/966359947897384961?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">21 February 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Markhor]

The Good Friday agreement is the perfect example of how to negotiate with terrorists. (Keep in mind the Western narrative of "we do not negotiate with terrorists")

- Bring them to the table.
- Negotiate.
- Grant terrorists immunity from prosecution. (Well done Tony Blair!)
- Promote a terrorist to a position of power in government (Martin McGuinness)
- Anoint Martin McGuinness for sainthood after his death.

If all it takes is border control to destroy the Good Friday Agreement, then let’s get on with it. The Border between NI and Ireland never had any relevance to the Good Friday Agreement, was never mentioned months after Brexit, it was only after the realisation of Brexit, did the EU play this silly border card – because EU will try everything in their books to thwart Brexit.

Okay so what do we replace the Good Friday Agreement with ? Are we seriously contemplating sacrificing the frail peace in Northern Ireland at the altar of Brexit ? How can the border be irrelevant to the GFA when it goes to the HEART of the century old conflict in Ireland ?

You describe Martin McGuinness as a terrorist, and yes the IRA committed terrorist acts, but make no mention of British intelligence colluding with Loyalist terrorists to kill hundreds of people, including the Catholic human rights lawyer Pat Finucane who was riddled with 14 bullets by these thugs.

Where's the hue and cry over British state terrorism against OUR OWN people ? How many of these agents have been brought to book ? Despite these grotesque crimes by a so-called democracy, McGuinness STILL negotiated and disarmed. Meanwhile, were was Theresa May's beloved DUP ? They were barking "NEVER NEVER NEVER".

People throw around the word terrorism and everyone is expected to concede the argument without exploring the context of the conflict. Northern Ireland between 1922-1969 was a sectarian state that would've made the Jim Crow South proud in the way it treated Catholics. It manifested itself in housing and employment discrimination, a Protestant dominated and biased police force, and blatant political gerrymandering.

I don't applaud McGuinness for being a part of an organisation, like the Loyalist paramilitaries, that killed civilians, but I applaud him for fighting for the rights of his community against people who believed its their God-given right to rule over Catholics and opposed any compromise, and an occupying British Army were responsible for war crimes like torture and illegal detention of innocents before the world heard of Abu Ghraib.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Okay so what do we replace the Good Friday Agreement with ? Are we seriously contemplating sacrificing the frail peace in Northern Ireland at the altar of Brexit ? How can the border be irrelevant to the GFA when it goes to the HEART of the century old conflict in Ireland ?

The thing is, calling GF an agreement, then saying the agreement is frail, sums up the GFA in a nutshell. Essentially what is being said is that had it not been for the EU, the GFA would not have existed. I don’t buy it. Main reason being Northern Ireland was more about Catholics vs Protestants. Peace treaties are signed up around the world, and the reality is the border issue is an emotional point, rather than a practical one.

If Brexit undermines the GFA, then the GFA and the EU is weak (and a bully). Nations need to be able to chart a path without the fall out threatening peace.

You describe Martin McGuinness as a terrorist, and yes the IRA committed terrorist acts, but make no mention of British intelligence colluding with Loyalist terrorists to kill hundreds of people, including the Catholic human rights lawyer Pat Finucane who was riddled with 14 bullets by these thugs.

It's not just me who describes Martin McGuinness as a terrorist, half of the UK described him a Terrorist, even after this death.

British Intelligence colluding with Terrorists is as old as gold. Depends how one defines terrorists of course. I also could’ve mentioned how the US Government were funding the IRA too. It’s no big secret. Collusion is part and parcel of Government dirty politics.

My main point was that the British (Western for that matter) Government/Media has the knack of transforming a Terrorist to a freedom fighter hero, and vice versa. Martin McGuinness, Nelson Mandela, Bin Laden, and so on.

Where's the hue and cry over British state terrorism against OUR OWN people ? How many of these agents have been brought to book ? Despite these grotesque crimes by a so-called democracy, McGuinness STILL negotiated and disarmed. Meanwhile, were was Theresa May's beloved DUP ? They were barking "NEVER NEVER NEVER".

There is no hue and cry over British state terrorism for the simple reason there’s a new breed of terrorism in the UK, International terrorists. Most people cry about ISIS attacks but forget how the IRA bombed England throughout the 70s 80s and 90s. State media brainwashing.

As for the DUP, money is a funny thing. The price of DUP was £1Billion. This is enough to buy loyalty. You and I know the DUP would not be in the frame had Theresa May not underestimated Corbyn.

People throw around the word terrorism and everyone is expected to concede the argument without exploring the context of the conflict. Northern Ireland between 1922-1969 was a sectarian state that would've made the Jim Crow South proud in the way it treated Catholics. It manifested itself in housing and employment discrimination, a Protestant dominated and biased police force, and blatant political gerrymandering.

Exactly. Northern Ireland was more down to Protestants vs Catholics issue, so the border issue is a moot point. However, the reality is that the definition of terrorism has changed. Ultimately terrorism is killing people for the sake of an ideology be it a religious or a political one.

I don't applaud McGuinness for being a part of an organisation, like the Loyalist paramilitaries, that killed civilians, but I applaud him for fighting for the rights of his community against people who believed its their God-given right to rule over Catholics and opposed any compromise, and an occupying British Army were responsible for war crimes like torture and illegal detention of innocents before the world heard of Abu Ghraib.

Would you say the same of Bin Laden? Would you applaud Bin Laden? He was fighting against the incessant attacks on Islamic nations by Western forces. Sending out a message to the Western world that their bombing campaigns and illegal wars were not a God-given right. Do you think after Iraq 2003 there’d be no appetite to avenge or protect the lives of those who suffered? Do you think Blair and Bush should be tried for war crimes?

I am not saying British Government are innocent, but I am saying that society needs a bogeyman, and the powers to be will create one by any means necessary.

 

[Robert]

Calling the border "down to Protestants and Catholics" is an oversimplification [MENTION=146465]R3verse Swing[/MENTION]. The Irish Govt has renounced its long-standing Constitution claim on the Six Counties in signing the GFA and EU membership is written into it.

 

[Robert]

Looking forward to this BBC Question Time

John Prescott doesn't pull his punches

)

I like Lord Prezza.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Its threads like this that make me glad [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] exists.

Had the misfortune of reading the , ahem,"argument" hes had to respond to and facepalmed through my head thinking about the long essay I'd need to write in response to such ignorance only to get home and see he did it all for me better expressed than I ever could!

 

[R3verse Swing]

Calling the border "down to Protestants and Catholics" is an oversimplification [MENTION=146465]R3verse Swing[/MENTION]. The Irish Govt has renounced its long-standing Constitution claim on the Six Counties in signing the GFA and EU membership is written into it.

Protestants vs. Catholics is what it boils down to though right?

 

[R3verse Swing]

More people died in the UK at the hands of IRA terrorism compared to all ISIS/International terrorists attacks in the UK. FACT.

Here's the kicker, had the GFA not existed, then anyone supporting IRA would be labelled a Terrorist sympathiser.

How a piece of paper and ink changes all that.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Maybe they can get round it by moving the border to the ports. Anything coming from the EU to Ulster will be held, searched and taxed. Anything to the Republic is waved through.

Smugglers' paradise.

So more big crime.

There is no bigger crime than granting terrorists immunity from prosecution.

There's no need for immunity if IRA were not guilty of terrorism.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

More people died in the UK at the hands of IRA terrorism compared to all ISIS/International terrorists attacks in the UK. FACT.

Here's the kicker, had the GFA not existed, then anyone supporting IRA would be labelled a Terrorist sympathiser.

How a piece of paper and ink changes all that.

You ignore the hundreds of Loyalist terrorosts who also got immunity. The deal was hard on both sides, but both agreed to move on rather than remain in a bloody bigoted past.

As for why the IRA existed, well the British Army shooting dead unarmed protesters didnt help.

Also, many many dozens of cases like this nobody seems to want to mention

http://www.thejournal.ie/british-army-aidan-mcanespie-report-3863605-Feb2018/

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Reverse Swing you may want to do yourself a slight favour and actually educate yourself instead of falling into the same old British trap of being pig ignorant on NI yet insisting you know more about than, yknow, the people who actually live on the border.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Reverse Swing you may want to do yourself a slight favour and actually educate yourself instead of falling into the same old British trap of being pig ignorant on NI yet insisting you know more about than, yknow, the people who actually live on the border.

I do not need to fall into any trap considering how IRA bombing through 70s, 80s, and 90s, effected my life in England. Coupled this with the fact that Tony Blair granted immunity from prosecution tells me the IRA were acknowledged as terrorists. The GFA doesn't change this fact or delete it from history or memory anymore than Al-Qaeda from the death of Bin-Laden.

Back to point, perhaps you can enlighten us on how a hard border undermines The Good Friday agreement?

 

[Donal Cozzie]

I do not need to fall into any trap considering how IRA bombing through 70s, 80s, and 90s, effected my life in England. Coupled this with the fact that Tony Blair granted immunity from prosecution tells me the IRA were acknowledged as terrorists. The GFA doesn't change this fact or delete it from history or memory anymore than Al-Qaeda from the death of Bin-Laden.

Back to point, perhaps you can enlighten us on how a hard border undermines The Good Friday agreement?

Re your first paragraph, Im not here to apologise for the IRA. Their actions were disgusting and condemnible. All I will say however is they only came into existence because of the British Army and the Northern Irish Government and RUC. The IRA disbanded in the late 50s and only emerged again after many many human rights abuses in Northern Ireland were committed and peaceful protesters were shot dead.. And nobody is claiming its deleted from history or whatever youre rambling about, the voters in NI and ROI made the conscious choice to pardon terrorists on both sides in an attempt to end the conflict and move on and thankfully it worked. You never mention the fact nobody ever served time for Bloody Sunday in Derry in fact the commander of the parachute regiment was awarded a knighthood if memory serves me correctly. You also ignore how the British Government funded and gave information to Loyalist terrorists so they could murder completely innocent people. But hey, IRA right.

As for your question.

The Good Friday Agreement places on equal terms both the Irish and British identities of NI. People there can have an Irish passport, a UK passport or both if they wish. This has allowed Nationalists to accept NI and work within it because they feel their Irish identity has the recognition it warrants and likewise Unionists have the British identity they desire.

What do you think Nationalists would do or feel if suddenly a big border was placed between them and the rest of Ireland with which they identify? How will farmers, who's land crosses this border dozens of times, cope? How will local business survive when many of them rely completely on cross border trade and business?

Another very vital aspect of the GFA was that Ireland gave up its constitutional claim on NI which it had since the inception of the country. It did so on the basis that a border would not exist and that NI will be governed jointly. Also as per the GFA the British Government stated that it had no self interest in NI and would merely govern it due to the majority there who wanted it. The Tories being in bed with the DUP quite obviously contradicts this as the recently revised electoral boundary changes show they sure as hell arent being neutral as they claim.


Lastly the GFA was drafted with both Ireland and the UK's EU membership in mind, the EU even played a consulting role in negotiations IIRC, also providing hundreds of millions in funding for cross community peace initiatives.

And to finish it all off the overwhelming majority of people in NI, Nationalist or Unionist, Catholic or Protestant, do NOT want a border of any description because without it life in the North has only prospered.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

There's a reason the only people advocating for an end tp the GFA are Jamie Bryson (Loyalist thug with a criminal record and represent absolutely nobody) Jim Allister (a dinasaur is too modern a term) Kate Hoey (UKIP MP disguised as Labour, also an Orange Order member) and Dan Hannan (I've met six year olds more grounded in reality). The reason being they're all either uninformed idiots, bigoted or dont give a toss about NI and just want Brexit at all costs.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Hearing too much loose talk about the Good Friday Agreement from Brexiteers, namely Daniel Hannan, Kate Hoey and Owen Paterson.

The latter supported an article on Twitter that the GFA has "run its course" - despite Paterson being a former NI Secretary !

What do you make of this [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] [MENTION=7898]Gabbar Singh[/MENTION].

I have mixed feelings over the whole GFA debate. Sure it’s important however both sides are just using it as an issue to further their own particular Pro or anti EU agendas imo - neither care much more or less about Ireland than the rest of us.

On one hand you have the likes of Hannan, Rees-Mogg and their ‘don’t worry about it, it will all work itself out’ careless attitude and then there’s those on the other side who are explicitly stating that Brexit (well leaving the customs union and the single market) = an end to the GFA = a return to terrorism.

I mean even without Brexit the current situation in NI is dire - we haven’t had a devolved government there for 13-14 months and Theresa May is in bed with the DUP. Those two issues are a clear breach of the GFA yet surprise surprise life goes on and there’s no violence/terrorism - there’s not even talk of a return to it.

So even with some sort of border between the north and the south I don’t see terrorism returning.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Re your first paragraph, Im not here to apologise for the IRA. Their actions were disgusting and condemnible. All I will say however is they only came into existence because of the British Army and the Northern Irish Government and RUC. The IRA disbanded in the late 50s and only emerged again after many many human rights abuses in Northern Ireland were committed and peaceful protesters were shot dead..

You are justifying the existence of the IRA. Fine. Do you apply your logic to ISIS/Al Qaeda terrorists? After all they didn’t just pop out of thin air, there was a reason.

And nobody is claiming its deleted from history or whatever youre rambling about, the voters in NI and ROI made the conscious choice to pardon terrorists on both sides in an attempt to end the conflict and move on and thankfully it worked. You never mention the fact nobody ever served time for Bloody Sunday in Derry in fact the commander of the parachute regiment was awarded a knighthood if memory serves me correctly. You also ignore how the British Government funded and gave information to Loyalist terrorists so they could murder completely innocent people. But hey, IRA right.

How can you moan about a Commander awarded for Knighthood or nobody served time for Bloody Sunday when the terrorists were granted immunity from prosecution under GFA?

As for British government funding and providing information to loyalists you have conveniently ignored the fact the American government were finding and providing information to the IRA. See how it works?

The Good Friday Agreement places on equal terms both the Irish and British identities of NI. People there can have an Irish passport, a UK passport or both if they wish. This has allowed Nationalists to accept NI and work within it because they feel their Irish identity has the recognition it warrants and likewise Unionists have the British identity they desire.

I got news for you, people can still have an Irish and UK passport even after a hard border on the same grounds they can apply when there is no border.

What do you think Nationalists would do or feel if suddenly a big border was placed between them and the rest of Ireland with which they identify? How will farmers, who's land crosses this border dozens of times, cope? How will local business survive when many of them rely completely on cross border trade and business?

The same applies to businesses in mainland UK. How will local businesses survive with higher tariffs when they rely on cross EU border trade, after Brexit? They are just going to have to adapt.

Regarding land that crosses the border, when there was a hard border did land owners have a wall across their land?

Another very vital aspect of the GFA was that Ireland gave up its constitutional claim on NI which it had since the inception of the country. It did so on the basis that a border would not exist and that NI will be governed jointly. Also as per the GFA the British Government stated that it had no self interest in NI and would merely govern it due to the majority there who wanted it. The Tories being in bed with the DUP quite obviously contradicts this as the recently revised electoral boundary changes show they sure as hell arent being neutral as they claim.

Really? Then why did Ireland vote against the Lisbon treaty first time round, this after the GFA? Was the referendum not a threat then?

Lastly the GFA was drafted with both Ireland and the UK's EU membership in mind, the EU even played a consulting role in negotiations IIRC, also providing hundreds of millions in funding for cross community peace initiatives.

I see, so the EU is to be credited for the GFA, not the UK. Furthermore what’s to say there will be no funding for cross community peace initiatives? Do you think money/funding is checked at a hard border too?

And to finish it all off the overwhelming majority of people in NI, Nationalist or Unionist, Catholic or Protestant, do NOT want a border of any description because without it life in the North has only prospered.

Yeah yeah, same applies to main-land UK. Many believe prosperity will decline after Brexit, so nothing really exclusive in what you say.

As I said in this thread, if peace is the goal, it can be achieved with or without a border - the border is nothing but an emotional point.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

You are justifying the existence of the IRA. Fine. Do you apply your logic to ISIS/Al Qaeda terrorists? After all they didn’t just pop out of thin air, there was a reason.

Lol I'm pretty sure the reasons for their existence, their own individual goals and their methods are planets apart but if you wanna end the line at "IRA were terrorists therefore are ISIS" be my guest, its not my job to educate you.



How can you moan about a Commander awarded for Knighthood or nobody served time for Bloody Sunday when the terrorists were granted immunity from prosecution under GFA?

So you're saying because IRA AND (as you keep forgetting) Loyalist terrorists got released early, AS AGREED FOR BY BOTH NI AND ROI, the British Army should be ignored for their crimes?? Man what are you even saying. One is an army who's purpose is to maintain peace and protect innocents, the others were terrorists, you think they're comparable? The British Army as has been proven time and again, shot dead completely innocent civilians and you think I have no right to mention it because some IRA guys got early release? Just idiotic.

As for British government funding and providing information to loyalists you have conveniently ignored the fact the American government were finding and providing information to the IRA. See how it works?

Links please. Irish Americans definitely gave money to the IRA but last I checked the American Government brokered the peace deal. Even if they did, what has that got to do with anything? So because the American government gave the IRA cash, which is completely unproven btw. that justifies the British special services literally planning terrorist attacks on innocent civilians?? Once again, you're clueless, just an apologist for the British Government.

I got news for you, people can still have an Irish and UK passport even after a hard border on the same grounds they can apply when there is no border.

Did I say that would change? I said there would be a border for those Irish passport holders to contend with when they want to go down south, which completely defeats the purpose of the passport in the first place ***.

The same applies to businesses in mainland UK. How will local businesses survive with higher tariffs when they rely on cross EU border trade, after Brexit? They are just going to have to adapt.

You're just exposing your absolute ignorance if you think the dynamics of NI are the same as the UK.
Let me attempt (note attempt, doubt it'll work) to educate you.

A guy owns a company in Belfast. He ships most of this to mainland Europe and his main supplier is in Dublin. Whereas before this was all seamless now he must contend with several stoppage points and border checks. If his product has a short shelf life? Too bad he's screwed. I'm not claiming NI is the only area that'll be affected by customs changes, but as someone who lives a thirty minute drive from the NI border lemme tell you the majority of local businesses there who's suppliers, customers and survival depends on the people living across the border being able to cross without military checkpoints or customs tolls will be absolutely decimated. These aren't major companies we're dealing with, these are SME's many of whom rely almost entirely on the island of Ireland having no border, seamless trade and access to mainland europe's customs union. It would be far more detrimental than any part of the mainland UK, hence why every single study, analysis and sane person has been saying a border is a complete no go and ha shown that NI's GDP in the event of Brexit could fall by as much as 12%!.

Regarding land that crosses the border, when there was a hard border did land owners have a wall across their land?

No, what we had instead were bridges blown up to prevent crossings, fields and roads landmined to prevent crossings, armed soldiers pointing their guns at everyone who tried to pass (resulting in deaths as the article I linked in my previous response states) and farmers in these border regions being terrorised by the prospect of looking out their window seeing something they shouldn't have and dying for it.

Really? Then why did Ireland vote against the Lisbon treaty first time round, this after the GFA? Was the referendum not a threat then?

What in God's name does the Lisbon Treaty of all things have to do with the GFA lmao. Seriously, what relevance does that have to this discussion?

I see, so the EU is to be credited for the GFA, not the UK. Furthermore what’s to say there will be no funding for cross community peace initiatives? Do you think money/funding is checked at a hard border too?

Hahahahaahha Jesus. Where did I say the EU were responsible for the GFA? I stated they had a consulting role in it and have provided millions of pounds in funding for cross border initiatives and infrastructure projects to rebuild what was Europe's wasteland.

If you want my opinion on who deserves credit for the GFA it would go to the then Irish and UK Governments, the US, Martin McGuinness and his Unionist counterparts who laid down arms and supported peace, without that they'd still be killing each other today. Also John Hume and the SDLP.

Yeah yeah, same applies to main-land UK. Many believe prosperity will decline after Brexit, so nothing really exclusive in what you say.

Yeah your point totally ignored what I said, which was that absolutely nobody in NI bar the absolute Loyalist lunatic fringe want a border of any sort. You dont have counter to that so just brush it off lol, OK mate if you want, doesnt disprove my point.

As I said in this thread, if peace is the goal, it can be achieved with or without a border - the border is nothing but an emotional point.

"Nothing but an emotional point" yeah well putting a fcking wall between communities and an island that never asked for one in the first place does tend to tick people off, gee who would have thought.

If a border is erected (which is a moot point since as I've stated countless times in another thread, is not logistically possible) bombings wont return but you can bet tensions will rise. And you can also bet no sooner would it be up than no sooner would the people of NI remove it again. The British Army had 10,000 soldiers attempt it at the height of the troubles and couldnt do it, wont manage it now either.

 

[R3verse Swing]

"Nothing but an emotional point" yeah well putting a fcking wall between communities and an island that never asked for one in the first place does tend to tick people off, gee who would have thought.

If a border is erected (which is a moot point since as I've stated countless times in another thread, is not logistically possible) bombings wont return but you can bet tensions will rise. And you can also bet no sooner would it be up than no sooner would the people of NI remove it again. The British Army had 10,000 soldiers attempt it at the height of the troubles and couldnt do it, wont manage it now either.

This is the 21st Century. A border is not going to be a wall. If tensions are going to rise with a border, it's time NI/Ireland grow up.

Of course there is the nuclear option, NI should secede from UK and join the EU.

Oh by the way, Lisbon treaty was about freedom of movement, one of EU's 4 pillars. The fact you did not know or understand it's relevance pretty much sums up how much the border is really an issue.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

This is the 21st Century. A border is not going to be a wall. If tensions are going to rise with a border, it's time NI/Ireland grow up.

Of course there is the nuclear option, NI should secede from UK and join the EU.

Oh by the way, Lisbon treaty was about freedom of movement, one of EU's 4 pillars. The fact you did not know or understand it's relevance pretty much sums up how much the border is really an issue.

Hmm OK then, I'll gather the angry mobs with petrol bombs and you can tell them to "grow up". Thatll work.

Agreed on that and IMO likeliest option. Customs checks will occur in NI ports and airports, no land border. Pray tell btw if it wont be a wall what will it be? Those mystical electronic customs checks I keep hearing about that dont exist?

And if you knew anything about the EU youd know no Treaty can be implemented without unanimous backing by all member states, so had Ireland voted No a second time no divergence wouldve occurred.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Hmm OK then, I'll gather the angry mobs with petrol bombs and you can tell them to "grow up". Thatll work.

Agreed on that and IMO likeliest option. Customs checks will occur in NI ports and airports, no land border. Pray tell btw if it wont be a wall what will it be? Those mystical electronic customs checks I keep hearing about that dont exist?

And if you knew anything about the EU youd know no Treaty can be implemented without unanimous backing by all member states, so had Ireland voted No a second time no divergence wouldve occurred.

Are you seriously suggesting if the border was reinstated, then violence would return?

The border won’t be a wall, this isn’t Trump world. Do you think there are walls between say Sweden and Norway? Norway is not a member of the EU but Sweden is. Or even walls surrounding Switzerland, which is also not a member of the EU but borders with EU nations?

The point on the Lisbon treaty was that Ireland voted against it, not that the treaty cannot be implemented without unanimous backing of all EU member states. If the border is so important, then why vote against the ratification of Freedom of Movement between 2 EU states, Ireland and Northern Ireland. This was my point. In other words, voting against the Lisbon treaty would’ve resulted in some kind of border control. We know the rest, Ireland was then forced to have another referendum, until the desired result was reached.

At the end of the day, the EU is holding the cards. The EU helped remove the border, it can help maintain the status quo too by providing a special deal to the UK. Though the EU will not, because once a special deal is granted to the UK, other countries like Italy, Portugal, Spain and Greece, will demand special deals for themselves, ushering the beginning of the end of the EU. This is why EU is playing hard ball with Brexit. EU want to make an example of the UK so that any other nations thinking of leaving the EU, will think thrice about it.

 

[Robert]

Hmm OK then, I'll gather the angry mobs with petrol bombs and you can tell them to "grow up". Thatll work.

Agreed on that and IMO likeliest option. Customs checks will occur in NI ports and airports, no land border. Pray tell btw if it wont be a wall what will it be? Those mystical electronic customs checks I keep hearing about that dont exist?

And if you knew anything about the EU youd know no Treaty can be implemented without unanimous backing by all member states, so had Ireland voted No a second time no divergence wouldve occurred.

You think moving the border to the ports will work? I hope so. London seems hell-bent on leaving the CU so I think it’s the only option.

 

[Robert]

Two Lib Dem Council gains last night, one from Tory, the other from Indy from a standing start.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Are you seriously suggesting if the border was reinstated, then violence would return?

If youd have bothered to read my prior post youd have seen I explicitly addressed that. It wont, but tensions will bubble up and unsavoury things will happen, albeit not bombings.

The border won’t be a wall, this isn’t Trump world. Do you think there are walls between say Sweden and Norway? Norway is not a member of the EU but Sweden is. Or even walls surrounding Switzerland, which is also not a member of the EU but borders with EU nations?

There wont be a border at all because its impossible. Switzerland has special agreements with the EU mate, so using that as an example is ridiculous since the UK seems intent on leaving both the CU and SM. As for Sweden and Norway, again Norway has special agreements with the EU so.......

Also the dynamics of that Sweden Norway border are so far from NI's its laughable. Again, you havent got a notion about anything in NI, the conflict, the people, the dynamics, the border, nothing. You're regurgitating lies spread by your Brexit masters. Educate yourself. And no there are no walls, there are customs checks which, as I've stated previously, decimate NI more than any other region in the UK as every study shows. Implement any I mean any changes to the current frictionless border you destroy the economy in NI as well as the southern border regions and inflame tensions.

The point on the Lisbon treaty was that Ireland voted against it, not that the treaty cannot be implemented without unanimous backing of all EU member states. If the border is so important, then why vote against the ratification of Freedom of Movement between 2 EU states, Ireland and Northern Ireland. This was my point. In other words, voting against the Lisbon treaty would’ve resulted in some kind of border control. We know the rest, Ireland was then forced to have another referendum, until the desired result was reached.

No, voting against it would NOT have resulted in border control sweet Jesus, there would have been no divergence because Ireland and the UK have a Common Travel Agreement which removed all barriers of transport and people between the two nations, while also not being in the Schengen Area. If you knew anything about NI you'd have known this. Do you think the frictionless border bit only started in 2007 after the Lisbon Treaty? The Northern Irish border was never even a question until Brexit because the two governments had agreed to it and its part of an intenationally ratified peace treaty

Also your last line is more anti EU guff spouted by Farage and Co. Ireland was not "forced" to do anything, it voted against the Treaty and explained why, the EU then modified the Treaty to address our concerns and we voted in favour. Literally democracy in action.

At the end of the day, the EU is holding the cards. The EU helped remove the border, it can help maintain the status quo too by providing a special deal to the UK. Though the EU will not, because once a special deal is granted to the UK, other countries like Italy, Portugal, Spain and Greece, will demand special deals for themselves, ushering the beginning of the end of the EU. This is why EU is playing hard ball with Brexit. EU want to make an example of the UK so that any other nations thinking of leaving the EU, will think thrice about it.

No those countries wont demand anything because objectively being in the EU is much more sensible than being part of a "Special Deal" which gives some benefits of EU membership while having absolutely no say in howe the EU is run or anything of the sort. The EU arent doing anything like making an example, they planned well in advance and were clear in their intentions, the UK are just bumbling around like a drunkard swinging left and right and embarrassing itself at every conceivable time. 600 days since referendum and the UK doesnt even know what it wants or will do, would be laughable if not so serious.

Best case for UK is a Switzerland or Norway type deal which by any metric is already worse than what they had. Trust me, instead of clambering to follow the UK out ala Dan Hannan's imperialistic ramblings every EU state is standing baffled wondering what the actual hell the UK are doing, like watching a mental patient paint using his teeth.

You think moving the border to the ports will work? I hope so. London seems hell-bent on leaving the CU so I think it’s the only option.

Who knows, NI trades significantly with mainland UK as well as EU. IMO its the best option and if Brexit is to occur the sole solution.

 

[R3verse Swing]

If youd have bothered to read my prior post youd have seen I explicitly addressed that. It wont, but tensions will bubble up and unsavoury things will happen, albeit not bombings.



There wont be a border at all because its impossible. Switzerland has special agreements with the EU mate, so using that as an example is ridiculous since the UK seems intent on leaving both the CU and SM. As for Sweden and Norway, again Norway has special agreements with the EU so.......

Also the dynamics of that Sweden Norway border are so far from NI's its laughable. Again, you havent got a notion about anything in NI, the conflict, the people, the dynamics, the border, nothing. You're regurgitating lies spread by your Brexit masters. Educate yourself. And no there are no walls, there are customs checks which, as I've stated previously, decimate NI more than any other region in the UK as every study shows. Implement any I mean any changes to the current frictionless border you destroy the economy in NI as well as the southern border regions and inflame tensions.



No, voting against it would NOT have resulted in border control sweet Jesus, there would have been no divergence because Ireland and the UK have a Common Travel Agreement which removed all barriers of transport and people between the two nations, while also not being in the Schengen Area. If you knew anything about NI you'd have known this. Do you think the frictionless border bit only started in 2007 after the Lisbon Treaty? The Northern Irish border was never even a question until Brexit because the two governments had agreed to it and its part of an intenationally ratified peace treaty

Also your last line is more anti EU guff spouted by Farage and Co. Ireland was not "forced" to do anything, it voted against the Treaty and explained why, the EU then modified the Treaty to address our concerns and we voted in favour. Literally democracy in action.



No those countries wont demand anything because objectively being in the EU is much more sensible than being part of a "Special Deal" which gives some benefits of EU membership while having absolutely no say in howe the EU is run or anything of the sort. The EU arent doing anything like making an example, they planned well in advance and were clear in their intentions, the UK are just bumbling around like a drunkard swinging left and right and embarrassing itself at every conceivable time. 600 days since referendum and the UK doesnt even know what it wants or will do, would be laughable if not so serious.

Best case for UK is a Switzerland or Norway type deal which by any metric is already worse than what they had. Trust me, instead of clambering to follow the UK out ala Dan Hannan's imperialistic ramblings every EU state is standing baffled wondering what the actual hell the UK are doing, like watching a mental patient paint using his teeth.

That's an awful lot of babble.

You were the one who asked - if the border won’t be a wall what will it be? I just pointed out borders are not walls and gave you examples. Perhaps you should read what you are asking before undermining yourself.

As for the rest of your post, you’ve changed your tune, it’s typical bluff and bluster from a Remoaner. You just had to name drop Farage.

As much as you would like to blame Brexit, and Leave rhetoric, you have not in any of the above explained why a border undermines the GFA agreement. Your best explanation can be summed up as - *People will get angry and it may lead to violence* - that’s it. Well boo hoo – grow up!

All your economic concerns post Brexit are also applicable to the rest of the UK. So, your concerns are nothing special or exclusive.

You are also fibbing when you claim other nations in the EU are not demanding their piece of the pie. Perhaps you are not witnessing the rise of right-wing nationalism in Europe?

Forgotten how Greece was on the verge of dumping the Euro? Heard of Five-Star in Italy rising up the ranks? Did you read about Poland and how it could be expelled from the EU? Or what about France, where Macron stated if France had a referendum on EU membership, France would leave the EU too - https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/fra...n-uk-situation-french-leader-macron-says.html

May I remind you the UK public NEVER voted to join the EU. And before you mention 1973, UK voted to join the EEC, NOT the EU.

You are living in Lala-land thinking the EU is a great or if the EU will offer the UK a special deal.

EU will not allow the UK to set a favourable precedence. This is a fact based on what EU officials have said. You can kiss goodbye to Norway type deals as Norway has to sign up to the 4 freedoms of the EU.

You may believe staying in the EU is great, but the majority of British people who voted for Brexit did not. 17.4 Million.

Accept democracy, respect the democratic result, and move on, because we are taking back control.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Donald Tusk: UK Brexit plans 'pure illusion'

The UK's approach to the next stage of Brexit negotiations seems to be based on "pure illusion", Donald Tusk says.

The European Council president told a news conference in Brussels that the UK was still trying to "cherry pick" its future relationship with the EU.

Mr Tusk said he could only go on media reports of Brexit talks at the PM's country retreat Chequers on Thursday.

Theresa May is set to deliver a key speech setting out British ambitions on Friday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

Goodbye Norway/Switzerland deals! The only Illusion here is the EU will suffer without UK contributions, and the EU know it!

Bring it on.

Hard Brexit.

Walk away Theresa May!

 

[Markhor]

Looking forward to this BBC Question Time

John Prescott doesn't pull his punches
Ash Sarkar is a great mouthy muslim woman anarcho-communist (or whatever she is)

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Full <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/bbcqt?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#bbcqt</a> line-up this week: <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonLewis?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@BrandonLewis</a>, <a href="https://twitter.com/johnprescott?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@johnprescott</a>, <a href="https://twitter.com/CamillaTominey?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@CamillaTominey</a>, <a href="https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@AyoCaesar</a> and <a href="https://twitter.com/Juergen_Maier?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Juergen_Maier</a><br>10.45pm on <a href="https://twitter.com/BBCOne?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@BBCOne</a> and <a href="https://twitter.com/bbc5live?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@bbc5live</a> <a href="https://t.co/8ZZ8pboZ6w">pic.twitter.com/8ZZ8pboZ6w</a></p>— BBC Question Time (@bbcquestiontime) <a href="https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/966359947897384961?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">21 February 2018</a></blockquote>
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It was dreadful as always.

The audience behaviour is getting worse and worse, resembling a panto with all the jeering, hissing and booing. Most guilty are the Brexiteer bully boys who usually consist of angry, middle aged white men who shout down anyone who tries to explain how complex the Brexit process is.

You have the mandatory Brexit question which is inevitably followed by aforementioned angry middle aged white man yelling "What's so complex for yarr lot to understaaand - leaaaave means leaaaave !"

You have doddery old man Dimbleby who doesn't do a thing and wants his milk and meds before it gets too late.

The politicians recycle their talking points. Discussion of the NHS will involve some well meaning fellow saying "we just need to take the politics out of it and parties should work together" as if the NHS is not a political construct in the first place. A few Corbyn supporters will pipe up before the angry right-wing gammon take over again.

There'll be an immigration question where again, the angry middle aged white man (or woman) will reappear and holler "THE COUNTRY IS FULL !"

Then Dimblebot will announce they'll be in Brown Willy, Cornwall next week and on the panel is Nigel Farage, Nigel Farage's ex-wife, Nigel Farage's butler, a hapless "man in the middle" like that Siemens CEO last night, your usual platitude-mouthing government minister, a token Labour figure, and roll credits.

There's your BBC license fee.

 

[Robert]

There does seem to be at least be angry spam-faced white man per televised episode.

It’s better on R4 on Saturdays.

 

[Robert]

Well Corbyn has opened up clear red water between Labour and Tories on #brexitshambles.

Let us see if Soubry’s bill results in defeat for May. Most Labourites, all the SNP, Lib Dems and Plaid will back it, plus some Tory rebels.

 

[R3verse Swing]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION].

I think you will enjoy this - from this morning's show.

Massive Row With Caller Over Irish Border Leaves James O'Brien With His Head In His Hands

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...e-row-with-caller-over-northern-irish-border/

 

[R3verse Swing]

Theresa May rejects EU's draft option for Northern Ireland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43224785

An EU proposal for the Northern Ireland border threatens the "constitutional integrity" of the United Kingdom, Theresa May has said.

The EU's draft legal agreement proposes a "common regulatory area" after Brexit on the island of Ireland - in effect keeping Northern Ireland in a customs union - if no other solution is found.

Mrs May said "no UK prime minister could ever agree" to this.

The EU says the "backstop" option is not intended to "provoke" the UK.

Unveiling the draft agreement, EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier called on the UK to come up with alternatives.

He said the text was "no surprise" and was just a legally-worded assessment of what had been agreed so far.

Mr Barnier said the document contained "concrete and realistic solutions" in relation to the question of how to avoid a hard border once the UK leaves the EU's customs union.

Other options - a UK-EU deal that means checks are not needed and technological solutions - will also be explored.


Media captionMichel Barnier: I'm not trying to provoke anyone
Speaking at Prime Minister's Questions, Mrs May said she would be making her opposition to the "backstop" option "crystal clear" to the EU commission.

"The draft legal text the commission have published would, if implemented, undermine the UK common market and threaten the constitutional integrity of the UK by creating a customs and regulatory border down the Irish Sea, and no UK prime minster could ever agree to it," she said.

The prime minister was responding to a question from David Simpson of the Democratic Unionist Party, which gives the government the Commons support it needs to win key votes in the House of Commons.

Earlier the DUP's Westminster leader Nigel Dodds said his reaction to the publication was one of "amazement" that the EU thought it "could possibly fly with either us or the British government".

"We did not leave the European Union to oversee the breakup of the United Kingdom," he told the BBC, adding that it would be "catastrophic" for Northern Ireland to be "cut off" from UK markets.

Conservative Brexiteers have also said it is "completely unacceptable" and would effectively annex Northern Ireland.

There is also opposition to any role for the European Court of Justice after Brexit - the EU is proposing that disputes over the Brexit agreement in future years be settled by a "joint committee" which can refer to the EU's court for a binding decision.

Downing Street said that overall the negotiations were "progressing well", adding that "it would be surprising at this point if we did agree on everything".


Media captionWill the bridge that unites the two villages be used to divide them?

Media captionWould you notice if you crossed the Irish border?
According to the draft text, the "backstop" would involve an "area without internal borders in which the free movement of goods is ensured", covering customs, VAT, energy, agriculture, goods and other sectors.

"The territory of Northern Ireland... shall be considered to be part of the customs territory of the Union," it says.

The Irish government said this option was "very much a default and would only apply should it prove necessary".

Ireland's foreign affairs minister Simon Coveney said the publication was "another important step in the Brexit negotiations".

Labour says it would solve the Irish border question by entering into a new customs union with the EU, meaning checks are not needed as people and goods pass between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

Shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Kier Starmer said: "The EU-UK Government war of words needs to end.

"There can be absolutely no deviation from the solemn commitments made to Northern Ireland at the end of the first phase of Brexit negotiations. That means no hard border or any agreement that would undermine the Good Friday Agreement.

"Theresa May's failure to offer any viable solution to the border in Northern Ireland has come back to haunt her."

 

[Bosanquet]

You have to balance it out. I pay tax, most if goes to my State Pension and NHS (Health service).

In USA you have to pay for Health insurance on top, which could end up being higher.

The tax take in UK (Income, NI & VAT) is almost £700 billion. Out of which £120 billion goes to NHS & £90 B goes to state pension. At the moment the NHS is suffering badly from underfunding & the populace will have to decide whether they would like to increase funding (and pay more tax) in order to achieve a proper level of service (a la the french & germans) or adopt a more american system of privatised healthcare (with appalling inequity between the rich & poor). Even the continental model involves a degree of extra taxes taken dirctly from your salary to add to the state funding.

 

[Bosanquet]

Majority of us get our health care through our employers. Which means the company picks up a good chunk of the cost. So even with income taxes, Social Security, property taxes, I would still say overall we get to keep more of our money. No matter the tax bracket.

The problem that I hear of from friends & family in USA and some ex-US citizens now living here, is that there appear to be very wide variations in the levels of cover. If cover is "incomplete or inadequate" then there are something termed co-pays (I do not understand this) where apparently part of the costs have still to be payed by thepatient even though he or she is "insured". On a practical note how much does full gold-palted cover cost for a family of 4?

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION].

I think you will enjoy this - from this morning's show.

Massive Row With Caller Over Irish Border Leaves James O'Brien With His Head In His Hands

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...e-row-with-caller-over-northern-irish-border/

Strewth. JOB does get wound up at times. That chap was antagonistic and had taken a dogmatic position short on detail.

 

[Robert]

The tax take in UK (Income, NI & VAT) is almost £700 billion. Out of which £120 billion goes to NHS & £90 B goes to state pension. At the moment the NHS is suffering badly from underfunding & the populace will have to decide whether they would like to increase funding (and pay more tax) in order to achieve a proper level of service (a la the french & germans) or adopt a more american system of privatised healthcare (with appalling inequity between the rich & poor). Even the continental model involves a degree of extra taxes taken dirctly from your salary to add to the state funding.

Sure. But as the British are addicted to low tax it will be the latter. Elective surgery will be privatised, though emergency care and cancer care will stay free at point of service.

One thing we have to get right is to connect up medical and social care. When my old Mum was in her last year this was a big problem, getting the NHS to liaise effectively with the home care provider.

 

[s28]

OMG!!!

Polly Toynbee in the Guardian today saying Sinn Fein should take their seats at Westminster JUST to vote against Brexit

Where do you even start with that ?!

 

[R3verse Swing]

Gina Miller on LBC

This woman should be deported!

 

[Markhor]

<iframe width="400" height="500" frameborder="0" src="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/embed/p05zrmqw/43245541"></iframe>

Needless to say one of the few agreements I have with Blair is on Brexit, but what he doesn't understand is HIS economic policies CREATED the conditions for Brexit.

Now suddenly he's concerned about those "left behind by globalisation" in the North of England who voted Leave. You were Prime Minister for 10 years, what did YOU do to address these regional inequalities ? What did you do to stop real wages from falling or manufacturing as a share of the economy falling by 7% ?

You presided over a house price bubble that has rendered home ownership an impossibility for large numbers of young people while social housing continued to be decimated. You wined and dined with City of London bigwigs whilst they were busy selling toxic mortgages and engaged in risky lending that eventually destroyed the sand-like foundations of New Labour's economic growth.

I completely disagreed with the outcome of the referendum however you cannot demand democracy in the Middle East and deny it to those at home.

 

[Markhor]

Now moving onto something else, are people actually serious about Jacob Rees Mogg as a future Tory leader ? Are the Tory members (whatever few that's left) genuinely experiencing Mogg-mania ?

Go on, please I dare you to elect him.

I like his polite, civil manner but that's about it. If Corbyn's meant to get us back to the 1970s, then Mogg will return us to the 1870s.

I'm sure he'll sweep the Conservative Constituency Associations across the South and East but north of the M4 he'll have no appeal. A nurse in Halifax or a teacher in Bolton on 20k a year will find this product of privilege anathema.