'Bumrah has less threatening performances than Shaheen in all formats' : Aaqib Javed

[Buffet]

Pakistan has the most threatening batsman and bowler. It is question of time, Pakistan is going to dominate cricket.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The last pakistani pacer to take 200 test wickets made his debut in 1989.

30 years of hype.

 

[TheSultan]

Better match winner than Waqar in SENA.

If it helps you sleep at night.

Waqar’s match winning exploits are well documented. Just come back to me when your workhorse gets 29 wickets in a 3 test series.

Then talk about matchwinners.

 

[TheSultan]

Averages better than waqar in sena, looks like being slower but having better control is better for winning matches than being fast and furious. Though it was always true . Ambrose and McGrath were both slower than waqar. Didn't stop them from having a much more well rounded record than waqar.

I don’t want rounded - I want strike bowlers. Don’t compare a strike bowler to workhorses.

 

[TheSultan]

Better match winner than Waqar in SENA.

SENA includes England. Kindly remind me which series india have won in England with Bumrah bowling…..oh woops. Zero

The latest Australia series, you match winners were Pant and Siraj.

I rate Siraj a lot higher than Bumrah.

 

[Hextro]

The last pakistani pacer to take 200 test wickets made his debut in 1989.

30 years of hype.

You seem to have forgotten the topic of this thread. This thread is about whether or not Shaheen is more threatening than Bumrah across formats, this thread is not about the longevity of fast bowlers.

Try to stick to the topic.

 

[cricketjoshila]

If it helps you sleep at night.

Waqar’s match winning exploits are well documented. Just come back to me when your workhorse gets 29 wickets in a 3 test series.

Then talk about matchwinners.

Yes we know how many series Waqar won in Australia and WI.

Come here when a Pakistani pacer wins a test, let alone a series in Australia after 1995.

 

[cricketjoshila]

You seem to have forgotten the topic of this thread. This thread is about whether or not Shaheen is more threatening than Bumrah across formats, this thread is not about the longevity of fast bowlers.

Try to stick to the topic.

I am talking about flash in the pan performance of pakistani pacers, they come and they go like a merry go round. No one stays long enough.

 

[daytrader]

I am talking about flash in the pan performance of pakistani pacers, they come and they go like a merry go round. No one stays long enough.

We got such luxury just like India has with batters

 

[anikrc1]

I don’t want rounded - I want strike bowlers. Don’t compare a strike bowler to workhorses.

You can also want to be 8 feet tall, what we're talking about here is helping your team to be the best. Question for you, pick the one among Ambrose , McGrath , bumrah and waqar, who never helped his team to be no 1 in tests ? Hint: his name starts with W.

 

[TheSultan]

You can also want to be 8 feet tall, what we're talking about here is helping your team to be the best. Question for you, pick the one among Ambrose , McGrath , bumrah and waqar, who never helped his team to be no 1 in tests ? Hint: his name starts with W.

As far as I’m concerned, the 1994 series pak v Australia was for the no1 spot and pak won with Waqar taking 8 wickets in the match that pak won. So no1 thanks very much.

QED

 

[cricketjoshila]

We got such luxury just like India has with batters

What luxury? You are talking as if they were avging below 25 witn 150 test wickets.

 

[cricketjoshila]

As far as I’m concerned, the 1994 series pak v Australia was for the no1 spot and pak won with Waqar taking 8 wickets in the match that pak won. So no1 thanks very much.

QED

But we are not talking about your rankings.

You can say Karachi stock market is better than BSE or pakistani economy better than India, will that change the actual facts

 

[Hextro]

I am talking about flash in the pan performance of pakistani pacers, they come and they go like a merry go round. No one stays long enough.

How is that relevant to this thread? There's already a thread dedicated to that topic go share your thoughts there. I'll reiterate, This thread is about whether or not Shaheen is more threatening than Bumrah across formats. Stop trying to go off topic.

 

[giri26]

Shaheen is very good but again there have been many over last 30 years for Pakistan who have failed to achieve anything in Tests. The last Pakistan fast bowler to get 200 Test wickets was Waqar and the last two to get to 150 wickets were Shoaib & Gul. There has been a lots of chest thumping about the bowling resources from Pakistan fans but none of the bowlers have had the longevity to even get to 150 Test wickets.

Bumrah might not be as "Great" or as "Threatening" as Shaheen but again I will not be surprised if he ends up with better stats and wickets tally than the latter. Pakistan fans will then move on to the next hype.

 

[Hextro]

Shaheen is very good but again there have been many over last 30 years for Pakistan who have failed to achieve anything in Tests. The last Pakistan fast bowler to get 200 Test wickets was Waqar and the last two to get to 150 wickets were Shoaib & Gul. There has been a lots of chest thumping about the bowling resources from Pakistan fans but none of the bowlers have had the longevity to even get to 150 Test wickets.

Bumrah might not be as "Great" or as "Threatening" as Shaheen but again I will not be surprised if he ends up with better stats and wickets tally than the latter. Pakistan fans will then move on to the next hype.

Bumrah has 123 Test wickets at the age of 28, Shaheen has 95 Test wickets at the age of 22. I wonder who's likely to have more wickets by the end of their career.

 

[giri26]

Bumrah has 123 Test wickets at the age of 28, Shaheen has 95 Test wickets at the age of 22. I wonder who's likely to have more wickets by the end of their career.

Let's wait and watch. There have been many bowlers from Pakistan who had more wickets at a younger age than Indian bowlers of that time like Shami, Ishant etc. None of those bowlers play for Pakistan anymore, Ishant has 300 and Shami has 200. So unless Shaheen at least plays for 5-10 years and gets to 200-250 wickets I have to go with the history here.

 

[daytrader]

Let's wait and watch. There have been many bowlers from Pakistan who had more wickets at a younger age than Indian bowlers of that time like Shami, Ishant etc. None of those bowlers play for Pakistan anymore, Ishant has 300 and Shami has 200. So unless Shaheen at least plays for 5-10 years and gets to 200-250 wickets I have to go with the history here.

The only reason Ishant has those many wickets is because India didn't have any quality pacers. He was an automatic draw.

 

[giri26]

The only reason Ishant has those many wickets is because India didn't have any quality pacers. He was an automatic draw.

Does not matter. The point is that he played long enough to fashion wins for India, None of the hyped Pakistan bowlers were able to play long enough to even get to 200 Test wickets in 30 years. This also shows in Pakistan's performances overseas as for every tour there are new set of bowlers which does not help. Shaheen is good and I hope he gets to 200+ Test wickets but I will reserve my judgement till he gets closer to that.

 

[Buffet]

Afridi is a promising young bowler, but a long way to go to join the elites.

 

[giri26]

Afridi is a promising young bowler, but a long way to go to join the elites.

View attachment 115732

This is the exact reason such statements are meaningless at this point. Few LOI games does not make someone better. I will wait for Shaheen to play at least 50 Tests. A magic land mark which no Pakistan pacer has managed to breach in 30 years. The last Pakistan pacer to reach that landmark was Waqar who made his debut in 1989.

 

[TheSultan]

This wait and see argument could be applied to Bumrah too. He is yet to play 50 tests himself. We are realistic about shaheen’s place but Indians already believe Bumrah is an ATG and he’s played around 30 tests. Levels.

I would say Bumrah is already on the decline personally.

As for this 200 wickets argument. Part of it is that we have had a pathetic strategic attitude to fast bowling in the last 12 years, part of it is that pavers haven’t been very good.

But the important part is that we don’t flog dead horses just for records like india did with Ishant who was pretty pathetic in his early to mid career. We could have flogged Gul, Junaid Khan, even sohail khan for years but Gul was going downhill and the others just weren’t good enough.

 

[BreadPakoda]

This wait and see argument could be applied to Bumrah too. He is yet to play 50 tests himself. We are realistic about shaheen’s place but Indians already believe Bumrah is an ATG and he’s played around 30 tests. Levels.

I would say Bumrah is already on the decline personally.

As for this 200 wickets argument. Part of it is that we have had a pathetic strategic attitude to fast bowling in the last 12 years, part of it is that pavers haven’t been very good.

But the important part is that we don’t flog dead horses just for records like india did with Ishant who was pretty pathetic in his early to mid career. We could have flogged Gul, Junaid Khan, even sohail khan for years but Gul was going downhill and the others just weren’t good enough.

lol at flogging dead horses. Check two posts above. In the last 5 years, Ishant has better average, SR, and more wickets than shuperstar Afridi.

 

[Ab Fan]

Shaheen in tests vs :

<B>Australia - 36
Eng- 51
NZ - 43
SA - 27</B>
SL - 23
WI - 11
BD - 15
Zim - 16

What is all the hype about? Shaheen has barely managed to be decent vs top 3 teams. He has mostly cashed on weak lineups like SL, WI, BD and Zim. At the moment, in tests, he is a nothing bowler, even behind Siraj let alone Bumrah. Siraj has match winning performance in Lords and Gabba.

 

[Ab Fan]

If Shaheen is comparable to Bumrah after these stats, then Ashwin is comparable to Imran Khan too.

 

[Mobashir]

Shaheen has to do better in test cricket. So far he is clearly being Bumrah in the format.
In LOIs, Bumrah is good but Shaheen is better sur to his wicket taking ability with the new ball.

 

[giri26]

This wait and see argument could be applied to Bumrah too. He is yet to play 50 tests himself. We are realistic about shaheen’s place but Indians already believe Bumrah is an ATG and he’s played around 30 tests. Levels.

I would say Bumrah is already on the decline personally.

As for this 200 wickets argument. Part of it is that we have had a pathetic strategic attitude to fast bowling in the last 12 years, part of it is that pavers haven’t been very good.

But the important part is that we don’t flog dead horses just for records like india did with Ishant who was pretty pathetic in his early to mid career. We could have flogged Gul, Junaid Khan, even sohail khan for years but Gul was going downhill and the others just weren’t good enough.

lol at Bumrah on decline. To be really frank, none of the bowlers you mention did anything great in time they played except for few games at the start. Ishant only played as he started young and gradually improved. Bumrah is more likely to complete 50 Tests than any Pakistan bowler. I was talking more about Mohammed Shami & Ishant who have played 59 and 105 Tests respectively. I don't think Pakistan have produced a bowler of the caliber of even Mohammed Shami in the past decade in Tests. For all the boasting about fast bowling talent we would expect Pakistan to have had at least one ATG bowler over past decade. India may not have produced an ATG Test pacer but at least have produced a bowling unit who can win Tests in Australia, SA & England. Pakistan produce pacers who concede record scores in these countries.

 

[Hextro]

Let's wait and watch. There have been many bowlers from Pakistan who had more wickets at a younger age than Indian bowlers of that time like Shami, Ishant etc. None of those bowlers play for Pakistan anymore, Ishant has 300 and Shami has 200. So unless Shaheen at least plays for 5-10 years and gets to 200-250 wickets I have to go with the history here.

So you think Shaheen will fix a match or get injured? Because that's exactly what happened with the others. Clearly quality wasn't the issue for Pakistan we produce once in a generation type bowlers like Shoaib and Asif we also produced other good bowlers like Amir and Gul during that period. We were just unlucky with Asif and Amir getting banned.

Right now all common sense suggests that Shaheen will most likely end up with more wickets than Bumrah across formats. The signs are good so far, Shaheen only debuted 4 years ago and he's already considered one of the most dangerous bowlers in the world.

 

[Hextro]

Shaheen in tests vs :

<B>Australia - 36
Eng- 51
NZ - 43
SA - 27</B>
SL - 23
WI - 11
BD - 15
Zim - 16

What is all the hype about? Shaheen has barely managed to be decent vs top 3 teams. He has mostly cashed on weak lineups like SL, WI, BD and Zim. At the moment, in tests, he is a nothing bowler, even behind Siraj let alone Bumrah. Siraj has match winning performance in Lords and Gabba.

Bumrah is definitely ahead in test cricket so far as he came in relatively experienced(Bumrah was 24 or 25 when he made his test debut, that's 2 or 3 older than Shaheen's current age) compared to Shaheen who was extremely raw when he first played test cricket(he was only 18 years old) I mean he didn't even know how to bring the ball back into the right hander back then, Shaheen has improved dramatically now.

Despite having sub par stats in test cricket Shaheen is definitely ahead in the ODI format.

Shaheen(stats vs the top 5 ODI teams):

Innings - 22, Wickets - 40, Average - 27.85, Economy - 6.01, SR - 27.8

Bumrah(stats vs the top 5 ODI teams):

Innings - 48, Wickets - 62, Average - 34.43, Economy - 5.01, SR - 41.1

I was shocked after going through Bumrah's ODI stats. I knew he wasn't the type to take a bunch of Wickets upfront but these stats are shocking. It seems like Bumrah feasts on weak teams in ODIs but doesn't make much of an impact against good ones.

 

[BreadPakoda]

So you think Shaheen will fix a match or get injured? Because that's exactly what happened with the others. Clearly quality wasn't the issue for Pakistan we produce once in a generation type bowlers like Shoaib and Asif we also produced other good bowlers like Amir and Gul during that period. We were just unlucky with Asif and Amir getting banned.

Right now all common sense suggests that Shaheen will most likely end up with more wickets than Bumrah across formats. The signs are good so far, Shaheen only debuted 4 years ago and he's already considered one of the most dangerous bowlers in the world.

Let’s complete the Amir story here. Amir came back and was bang average in the longer format. His loud moaning and grunting to send down 120kph thunderbolts didn’t help and was eventually kicked out of the team.

 

[Sidilicious]

As far as I’m concerned, the 1994 series pak v Australia was for the no1 spot and pak won with Waqar taking 8 wickets in the match that pak won. So no1 thanks very much.

QED

As far as I am concerned all I am the greatest golfer in the world. Still doesn’t make it true.

No one cares what you are concerned about if it’s not true

 

[Hextro]

Let’s complete the Amir story here. Amir came back and was bang average in the longer format. His loud moaning and grunting to send down 120kph thunderbolts didn’t help and was eventually kicked out of the team.

Did you expect Amir to be the same bowler he used to be after not playing cricket for 5 years? If you expected him to be bowling 150kph thunderbolts I got news for you lol.

Also let's not degrade Amir too much, we all know what he did after coming back.

 

[Ab Fan]

Bumrah is definitely ahead in test cricket so far as he came in relatively experienced(Bumrah was 24 or 25 when he made his test debut, that's 2 or 3 older than Shaheen's current age) compared to Shaheen who was extremely raw when he first played test cricket(he was only 18 years old) I mean he didn't even know how to bring the ball back into the right hander back then, Shaheen has improved dramatically now.

Despite having sub par stats in test cricket Shaheen is definitely ahead in the ODI format.

Shaheen(stats vs the top 5 ODI teams):

Innings - 22, Wickets - 40, Average - 27.85, Economy - 6.01, SR - 27.8

Bumrah(stats vs the top 5 ODI teams):

Innings - 48, Wickets - 62, Average - 34.43, Economy - 5.01, SR - 41.1

I was shocked after going through Bumrah's ODI stats. I knew he wasn't the type to take a bunch of Wickets upfront but these stats are shocking. It seems like Bumrah feasts on weak teams in ODIs but doesn't make much of an impact against good ones.

That economy in OdIs is what makes Bumrah special. He bowls 5 overs in death and yet produces such an excellent economy( 5.0 compared to Shaheen's 6.0) but I do agree that in ODIs, his wicket taking ability with new bowl has been poor, especially in last 2-3 years. It was good before that but has gone down mostly in last 2-3 years post 2019 WC.

 

[Hextro]

That economy in OdIs is what makes Bumrah special. He bowls 5 overs in death and yet produces such an excellent economy( 5.0 compared to Shaheen's 6.0) but I do agree that in ODIs, his wicket taking ability with new bowl has been poor, especially in last 2-3 years. It was good before that but has gone down mostly in last 2-3 years post 2019 WC.

I feel that a bowler's wicket-taking ability especially upfront with the new ball is more important than their economy but I guess that's kind of subjective. The reasoning for my opinion is that one bowler having a good economy in a bowling attack isn't as likely to win you the match in comparison with a bowler who picks up wickets early and puts the opposition under pressure(like Amir, Boult, and Shaheen did against India). You should expect your spearhead bowler to pick up wickets not contain runs.

Let's take a look at Amir whose ODI stats are very similar to Bumrah's.

Bumrah(stats vs the top 5 ODI teams):

Innings - 48, Wickets - 62, Average - 34.43, Economy - 5.01, SR - 41.1

Amir(stats vs the top 5 ODI teams):

Innings - 37, Wickets - 48, Average - 33.50, Economy - 5.05, SR - 39.7

Can you see the problem here? No Pakistani fan in their right mind would pick Amir over Shaheen because of his economy.

We all know how teams crumble if a bowler takes out their top order. If Bumrah took wickets upfront he would've easily been an ODI legend by now.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Let me use the logic which some of my fellow indians use for their favorite players like Pant, Pandya and Rahul.

1.) Shaheen is a 22 year old baby in International cricket.

2.) Shaheen is soon going to take 100 wickets in tests so you can imagine by the time he turns 34 he will have around 500-600 test wickets. Next Wasim Akram 2.0.

3.) Shaheen is yet to reach his peak whereas Bumrah has already maximized his peak.

For more info, read KL vs Babar, Pant threads or Haris vs Umran threads.

 

[Hextro]

Let me use the logic which some of my fellow indians use for their favorite players like Pant, Pandya and Rahul.

1.) Shaheen is a 22 year old baby in International cricket.

2.) Shaheen is soon going to take 100 wickets in tests so you can imagine by the time he turns 34 he will have around 500-600 test wickets. Next Wasim Akram 2.0.

3.) Shaheen is yet to reach his peak whereas Bumrah has already maximized his peak.

For more info, read KL vs Babar, Pant threads or Haris vs Umran threads.

The obvious hypocrisy will always be there because people are passionate and want their players to do better than their rival's players. But it would be nice if people didn't contradict themselves all the time.

 

[Ab Fan]

I feel that a bowler's wicket-taking ability especially upfront with the new ball is more important than their economy but I guess that's kind of subjective. The reasoning for my opinion is that one bowler having a good economy in a bowling attack isn't as likely to win you the match in comparison with a bowler who picks up wickets early and puts the opposition under pressure(like Amir, Boult, and Shaheen did against India). You should expect your spearhead bowler to pick up wickets not contain runs.

Let's take a look at Amir whose ODI stats are very similar to Bumrah's.

Bumrah(stats vs the top 5 ODI teams):

Innings - 48, Wickets - 62, Average - 34.43, Economy - 5.01, SR - 41.1

Amir(stats vs the top 5 ODI teams):

Innings - 37, Wickets - 48, Average - 33.50, Economy - 5.05, SR - 39.7

Can you see the problem here? No Pakistani fan in their right mind would pick Amir over Shaheen because of his economy.

We all know how teams crumble if a bowler takes out their top order. If Bumrah took wickets upfront he would've easily been an ODI legend by now.

Yes, I am not denying that. Bumrah is lacking up in terms of taking wickets upfront with new ball and that is where he will lag behind in ODI cricket unless he turns things round but he is still a brilliant death over bowler and hence an excellent ODI bowler in his own right. I also prefer new bowl wicket takers over death over bowlers who struggle to pick wickets upfront.

In Tests, Shaheen is not comparable to Bumrah though. There is major difference between them as Shaheen's stats flatter due to minnow bashing.

 

[cricketjoshila]

So you think Shaheen will fix a match or get injured? Because that's exactly what happened with the others. Clearly quality wasn't the issue for Pakistan we produce once in a generation type bowlers like Shoaib and Asif we also produced other good bowlers like Amir and Gul during that period. We were just unlucky with Asif and Amir getting banned.

Right now all common sense suggests that Shaheen will most likely end up with more wickets than Bumrah across formats. The signs are good so far, Shaheen only debuted 4 years ago and he's already considered one of the most dangerous bowlers in the world.

What is Shaheen's performance in tests againist top 4-5 teams? Dangerous bowler

 

[Duckworth Lewis]

The only area where Shaheen is better than Bumrah is with the new ball in LOIs. Batsmen play out Bumrah without taking risks. But Bumrah is the best death bowler in the world right now. Bumrah has shown he can win test matches against top sides which Shaheen hasn't done yet.

 

[Hextro]

What is Shaheen's performance in tests againist top 4-5 teams? Dangerous bowler

If you actually read the discussion you would realize I was talking about the number of wickets Shaheen will pick up(or is likely to pick up) in his career.

I'll address your point nonetheless. Shaheen averages 34 vs the top 5 test teams and he averages 36 vs the top 4 test teams. Shaheen used to average over 40 against these teams not too long ago, Shaheen will definitely improve his test stats with time. It's important to keep in mind that Shaheen even now is extremely young and raw and will only most likely get considerably better as he matures as a fast bowler, unlike Bumrah who was already 24(2 years older than Shaheen's current age) when he made his test debut compare that with Shaheen who made his test debut after only playing 2 first class games and at the age of 18.

And to address your last point yes Shaheen is a very dangerous bowler as you found out last year.

 

[Hextro]

Yes, I am not denying that. Bumrah is lacking up in terms of taking wickets upfront with new ball and that is where he will lag behind in ODI cricket unless he turns things round but he is still a brilliant death over bowler and hence an excellent ODI bowler in his own right. I also prefer new bowl wicket takers over death over bowlers who struggle to pick wickets upfront.

In Tests, Shaheen is not comparable to Bumrah though. There is major difference between them as Shaheen's stats flatter due to minnow bashing.

Shaheen lags in test cricket but he has all the time in the world to correct his record. He's already shown great signs of impovement.

 

[Local.Dada]

Shaheen lags in test cricket but he has all the time in the world to correct his record. He's already shown great signs of impovement.

Shaheen Afridi is a good bowler. However he has a long way to go to be a test bowler. Apart from Wahab and to some extent Hassan Ali, every Pakistan pace bowler loses his intensity after first spell. They start of 140+ and by 2nd spell they are early 130’s.

However Shaheen seems to go flat out at the start and man some of his opening spells have been beastly but doesn’t seem to sustain. That’s why has a long way to go in tests and even in ODIs.

In T20 I would say he is the most intimidating bowler currently at the start.

 

[Hextro]

Shaheen Afridi is a good bowler. However he has a long way to go to be a test bowler. Apart from Wahab and to some extent Hassan Ali, every Pakistan pace bowler loses his intensity after first spell. They start of 140+ and by 2nd spell they are early 130’s.

However Shaheen seems to go flat out at the start and man some of his opening spells have been beastly but doesn’t seem to sustain. That’s why has a long way to go in tests and even in ODIs.

In T20 I would say he is the most intimidating bowler currently at the start.

It would've been nice if you provided a source or some data to back your claim.

Pakistan vs South Africa in 2019 test series bowling speeds:

Shaheen's bowling speed(South Africa 1st innings in the first test match):

Average speed - 139.0kph

Fastest ball - 145.4kph

Shaheen's bowling speed(South Africa 2nd innings in the first test match):

Average speed - 139.3kph

Fastest ball - 145.3kph

As you can see Shaheen actually bowled faster in the second innings instead of slowing down. You are mixing up the new ball getting old with the bowler's stamina.

The second test match only recorded the bowling speeds during South Africa's first innings.

Shaheen's bowling speed(South Africa 1st innings in the second test match):

Average speed - 140.4kph

Fastest ball - 146.4kph

These are the most recent speeds the ICC recorded on their website in matches involving Pakistan.

 

[Marooned]

It would've been nice if you provided a source or some data to back your claim.

Pakistan vs South Africa in 2019 test series bowling speeds:

Shaheen's bowling speed(South Africa 1st innings in the first test match):

Average speed - 139.0kph

Fastest ball - 145.4kph

Shaheen's bowling speed(South Africa 2nd innings in the first test match):

Average speed - 139.3kph

Fastest ball - 145.3kph

As you can see Shaheen actually bowled faster in the second innings instead of slowing down. You are mixing up the new ball getting old with the bowler's stamina.

The second test match only recorded the bowling speeds during South Africa's first innings.

Shaheen's bowling speed(South Africa 1st innings in the second test match):

Average speed - 140.4kph

Fastest ball - 146.4kph

These are the most recent speeds the ICC recorded on their website in matches involving Pakistan.

Exactly this.

This is a big myth that Shaheen loses pace as the game advances.

I suggest anyone who cares to have a look at his speed data from the icc site for any game for which they have the speed data available. He maintains his pace in 2nd innings. His average pace is always around 140k.

Compare this to Bumrah who apparently maintains his 'pace'. Well there isn't much pace to begin with.

These are his speeds in west indies series 2019.

1st Test: avg/highest

1st innings- 133.9/141.7
2nd innings- 134.5/139.0

2nd Test :

1st innings - 137.3/145.7
2nd innings -134.9/142.8

What's funny is we were told Bumrah bowled express pace this series.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Exactly this.

This is a big myth that Shaheen loses pace as the game advances.

I suggest anyone who cares to have a look at his speed data from the icc site for any game for which they have the speed data available. He maintains his pace in 2nd innings. His average pace is always around 140k.

Compare this to Bumrah who apparently maintains his 'pace'. Well there isn't much pace to begin with.

These are his speeds in west indies series 2019.

1st Test: avg/highest

1st innings- 133.9/141.7
2nd innings- 134.5/139.0

2nd Test :

1st innings - 137.3/145.7
2nd innings -134.9/142.8

What's funny is we were told Bumrah bowled express pace this series.

Ok. We prefer bowlers in the 135-145 range.

 

[giri26]

So you think Shaheen will fix a match or get injured? Because that's exactly what happened with the others. Clearly quality wasn't the issue for Pakistan we produce once in a generation type bowlers like Shoaib and Asif we also produced other good bowlers like Amir and Gul during that period. We were just unlucky with Asif and Amir getting banned.

Right now all common sense suggests that Shaheen will most likely end up with more wickets than Bumrah across formats. The signs are good so far, Shaheen only debuted 4 years ago and he's already considered one of the most dangerous bowlers in the world.

Never talked about fixing but again lots of Pakistan bowlers started brilliantly but fell away later in the career. Except for Aamir & Asif none of them were lost due to anything other than cricketing reasons. Hasan and Shaheen look good for now, so lets wait and watch. If they go on to play 50-75 Tests it is good but I will wait till that happens as it hasn't for 30 years. Pakistan management does not have patience as well with the bowlers. Couple of years of bad performance and the bowlers are lost for ever. We have seen this with Junaid, Abbas etc. So Shaheen not only has to work on developing his own bowling skills but also has to battle against fickle selectors & Team management.

 

[giri26]

Bumrah's ODI form has dipped a lot over the last 3 years and that is for everyone to see. In the same time he has been a good Test bowler and has won us games in Australia, England and SA. His T20I form isn't bad either but could be better. Bumrah has lots to improve on in white ball format which was his forte when he made his debut. But again We have lots of young bowlers who can do the job in ODI/T20 for India, I would prefer Bumrah doing well in Tests rather than in LOIs.

 

[sweep_shot]

Bumrah has declined massively. Shaheen is in red hot form.

So, Aaqib is right.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Bumrah has declined massively. Shaheen is in red hot form.

So, Aaqib is right.

Declined massively on what basis? Here are Bumrah's averages for the last 12 months:

Tests: 20
ODI: 27
T20Is: 17

 

[Ab Fan]

Declined massively on what basis? Here are Bumrah's averages for the last 12 months:

Tests: 20
ODI: 27
T20Is: 17

Based on this IPL season where he averages 45. IPL is a benchmark for T20 cricket. Posters know this and use it as well, just that they don't have guts to say it verbally but they have accepted it.

 

[Hextro]

Declined massively on what basis? Here are Bumrah's averages for the last 12 months:

Tests: 20
ODI: 27
T20Is: 17

Its a good thing that I know my stats so that I can call out suff like this.

The samples you are using are extremely small, using small samples can easily misinform people. Bumrah has only played 4 tests in 2022, 2 of which were against Sri Lanka. Same thing with the ODIs, Bumrah has only played 3 ODIs in 2022. I've noticed that you've used T20 stats over a 2 year period because Bumrah averaged 43 this year in a grand total of 2 innings.

If I started manipulating stats the way you are I could just say Babar averages 138 in the past 12 months with a SR of 102 without giving them the context of Babar only playing 3 ODI innings in 2022.

We can look at a two year period instead of just a one year period to get a better picture of Bumrah's form.


Tests: 23.42

ODI: 61.90(had to use a 3 year period for ODIs because Bumrah didn't play a single ODI in 2021.)

You already posted the two year period for T20s despite saying that you are only considering stats from the past year.

My simple size for ODIs is 12 innings yours was 3 innings, my sample size for test matches is 24 innings yours was 8 innings.

 

[Hextro]

Based on this IPL season where he averages 45. IPL is a benchmark for T20 cricket. Posters know this and use it as well, just that they don't have guts to say it verbally but they have accepted it.

I thought you didn't consider T20 as real cricket.

 

[Ab Fan]

I thought you didn't consider T20 as real cricket.

The question above that was quoted for someone else who is basing his conclusion of Bumrah's decline based on his IPL performance this season.

I personally only give 10% value to T20 cricket on whole. 60% is to test cricket, 30% is ODI cricket and 10% to all the T20 cricket that is happening around the world (with 5% to WT20, 3% to IPL and other franchise cricket and 2% to T20Is).

This shouldn't be confused with which matches do I watch because I can only watch live matches based on my time bandwidth. However, relevance will always be more to test cricket followed by ODIs and then t20s.

 

[Hextro]

The question above that was quoted for someone else who is basing his conclusion of Bumrah's decline based on his IPL performance this season.

I personally only give 10% value to T20 cricket on whole. 60% is to test cricket, 30% is ODI cricket and 10% to all the T20 cricket that is happening around the world (with 5% to WT20, 3% to IPL and other franchise cricket and 2% to T20Is).

This shouldn't be confused with which matches do I watch because I can only watch live matches based on my time bandwidth. However, relevance will always be more to test cricket followed by ODIs and then t20s.

I'm pretty sure that person was referring to Bumrah's ODI form when he made his comment.

Although it's nice that you have a way to calculate the amount of enjoyment you receive from watching different formats. I personally like a good dose of every format. Too much test cricket can get boring.

 

[Ab Fan]

I'm pretty sure that person was referring to Bumrah's ODI form when he made his comment.

Although it's nice that you have a way to calculate the amount of enjoyment you receive from watching different formats. I personally like a good dose of every format. Too much test cricket can get boring.

Enjoyment and relevance are not same though. For example, I might enjoy a close bilateral match more compared to a one sided world Cup final but the WC Final inning of the player will be valued more than in a bilateral match.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Shaheen is nowhere close to Bumrah in Tests as of now. Bumrah has definitely had more impact spells, specially against the tougher teams.

In white ball cricket, to be compared to Bumrah would be unfortunate for any half decent pace bowler. The guy just doesn’t know how to pick up wickets in limited overs cricket.

 

[Hextro]

Enjoyment and relevance are not same though. For example, I might enjoy a close bilateral match more compared to a one sided world Cup final but the WC Final inning of the player will be valued more than in a bilateral match.

There isn't a universal standard we can use to judge which format has more value. Some people might say ODIs have more value to them compared to test cricket and vice versa. I guess discussing that here will be diverging from the original topic of this thread.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Shaheen is nowhere close to Bumrah in Tests as of now. Bumrah has definitely had more impact spells, specially against the tougher teams.

In white ball cricket, to be compared to Bumrah would be unfortunate for any half decent pace bowler. The guy just doesn’t know how to pick up wickets in limited overs cricket.

Have some patience. Shaheen is just 22 and yet to reach his peak.

 

[Rellu_Katta]

its stupid to compare both... Bummrah is a 11 year vetran ... been playing cricket when Afridi wa less than a decade old... and he is a beast

so dnt compare them like for like

Shaheen has a lot to learn ... esp in tests ....

Bummrah had good support from Shami ... when Hassan Ali was performing, SSA looked like world killer, vs Aus, he was down again

so similar to Babar-Kholi comparison, SSA-Bumrah will need to be looked at with time....

 

[TheSultan]

Declined massively on what basis? Here are Bumrah's averages for the last 12 months:

Tests: 20
ODI: 27
T20Is: 17

Strike rates please?

 

[BreadPakoda]

Strike rates please?

49, 36, and 19

 

[Hextro]

Strike rates please?

The strike rate doesn't matter because the sample size is 3 ODIs and 4 test matches.

 

[TheSultan]

The strike rate doesn't matter because the sample size is 3 ODIs and 4 test matches.

Haha! Neither do the averages. Didn’t realise it was such a small and selective sample size.

 

[Local.Dada]

Haha! Neither do the averages. Didn’t realise it was such a small and selective sample size.

Let me simplify minus the stats. Hands down India is the best fast bowling unit in tests.

Aussies indiividually look stronger with Hazelwood, Cummins and Starc but over all when you add credentials + results + skills + talent pool Indian test fast bowling unit is the best now and probably has a case for being one of the top 5 collectively.

This is easy to see when you watch cricket as a fan and an open mind. Rest all is just a case of being stubborn.

Won series in Aus, leading 2-1 in England, won tests in SA both series, unplayable in India.

That’s my stat.

 

[TheSultan]

In all honestly - I just wish Indian supporters stop this hero worship where they will put down some of their other excellent performers just to worship their favourites.

We saw this 20 years with Tendulkar. If someone even mentioned that Dravid / Laxman had performed better when it mattered. Or that Azharuddin and Kaif are more stylish players. The huff and puff from the Indian fans was laughable! Dravid is your player too - as are the others.

I see the same thing happening with Bumrah. If you mention Siraj, or Sami or even this new kid Umran Malik, they will try and divert the convo to Bumrah Bumrah.

Reality is Bumrah is actually unproven at test level, poor in ODIs and declining in T20s. Show me 300 tests wickets and we can talk.

 

[TheSultan]

Let me simplify minus the stats. Hands down India is the best fast bowling unit in tests.

Aussies indiividually look stronger with Hazelwood, Cummins and Starc but over all when you add credentials + results + skills + talent pool Indian test fast bowling unit is the best now and probably has a case for being one of the top 5 collectively.

This is easy to see when you watch cricket as a fan and an open mind. Rest all is just a case of being stubborn.

Won series in Aus, leading 2-1 in England, won tests in SA both series, unplayable in India.

That’s my stat.

Look at the opposition. Dont keep harping on about SENA, Australia England blah blah.

Look at the state of English cricket right now - it is a laughing stock and you may be leading 2-1 but you haven’t beaten them and you have been spanked from pillar to post for the last 15 years in England.

South Africa are a very poor side right now

Australia in 2018 were rudderless

The Australia 2020/21 team had consistency issues. However, that was a bona fide win for India. I give them a lot of credit for that. Fair play. But it was not won by your bowling attack. It was won by your ‘keeper with the bowlers chipping in. And dare I say it is harder to be a fast bowling matchwinner in the subcontinent due to the pitches.

If India were such a great so called ‘pace attack’ (read seam up bowling unit), then why do you still prepare dustbowls for the spinners?

 

[Local.Dada]

Look at the opposition. Dont keep harping on about SENA, Australia England blah blah.

Look at the state of English cricket right now - it is a laughing stock and you may be leading 2-1 but you haven’t beaten them and you have been spanked from pillar to post for the last 15 years in England.

South Africa are a very poor side right now

Australia in 2018 were rudderless

The Australia 2020/21 team had consistency issues. However, that was a bona fide win for India. I give them a lot of credit for that. Fair play. But it was not won by your bowling attack. It was won by your ‘keeper with the bowlers chipping in. And dare I say it is harder to be a fast bowling matchwinner in the subcontinent due to the pitches.

If India were such a great so called ‘pace attack’ (read seam up bowling unit), then why do you still prepare dustbowls for the spinners?

Every result can be nitpicked then.

So Pak beat India in the WT20 because they were lucky to win toss and chase in dew, Indian team were tired from IPL, Rohit and Kohli were out of form or decline. Hope you analyze that win or other Pakistani wins at that level too.

We prepare spin conditions because we also have the best test spin line up. Nearly 700 wickets from our spin-duo. A guy like Ashwin sits out at times that’s how competitive our bowling is over all.

 

[Hextro]

Let me simplify minus the stats. Hands down India is the best fast bowling unit in tests.

Aussies indiividually look stronger with Hazelwood, Cummins and Starc but over all when you add credentials + results + skills + talent pool Indian test fast bowling unit is the best now and probably has a case for being one of the top 5 collectively.

This is easy to see when you watch cricket as a fan and an open mind. Rest all is just a case of being stubborn.

Won series in Aus, leading 2-1 in England, won tests in SA both series, unplayable in India.

That’s my stat.

Care to remind me the topic of this thread? How is your comment relevant in this conversation?

There are already multiple threads that discuss the indian bowling lineup, go share your thoughts there. Don't try to derail the conversation.

 

[Local.Dada]

Care to remind me the topic of this thread? How is your comment relevant in this conversation?

There are already multiple threads that discuss the indian bowling lineup, go share your thoughts there. Don't try to derail the conversation.

Well the topic of the thread itself is based on an emotional statement or media byte given by an ex player not backed by any evidence. I am happy that cricket fans who see it as a sport pointed that out. There isn’t any basis at all for this argument. I was just trying to help by cut down the pointless tension.

If Aquib Javed is basing this on that one opening spell against India etc more power to him.

Not a single Indian fan denies SSA’s talent and potential but one most be really delusional to compare him with Bumrah at this specific point of time. There is 0 equivalence. Bumrah was picking up 5frs for fun in every overseas series where India was doing well despite a terrible batting line up with over the hill and out of form cricketers bar 1-2.

That’s why I felt my comment was important in that context

 

[Hextro]

Well the topic of the thread itself is based on an emotional statement or media byte given by an ex player not backed by any evidence. I am happy that cricket fans who see it as a sport pointed that out. There isn’t any basis at all for this argument. I was just trying to help by cut down the pointless tension.

If Aquib Javed is basing this on that one opening spell against India etc more power to him.

Not a single Indian fan denies SSA’s talent and potential but one most be really delusional to compare him with Bumrah at this specific point of time. There is 0 equivalence. Bumrah was picking up 5frs for fun in every overseas series where India was doing well despite a terrible batting line up with over the hill and out of form cricketers bar 1-2.

That’s why I felt my comment was important in that context

No need to get so worked up over a conversation. We're discussing whether or not Shaheen is more threatening than Bumrah across formats, we're not discussing the likes of Shami and Siraj or other indian bowlers.

If you don't agree with an argument just present your counter points.

I would like to clarify my position in this debate if your confused about it. I believe that Shaheen is better in ODIs and Bumrah is better in Tests. I also believe that Shaheen will end up being better than Bumrah in the future across formats.

 

[Local.Dada]

No need to get so worked up over a conversation. We're discussing whether or not Shaheen is more threatening than Bumrah across formats, we're not discussing the likes of Shami and Siraj or other indian bowlers.

If you don't agree with an argument just present your counter points.

I would like to clarify my position in this debate if your confused about it. I believe that Shaheen is better in ODIs and Bumrah is better in Tests. I also believe that Shaheen will end up being better than Bumrah in the future across formats.

That is fine and as a Pakistani fan you should.

There is also a chance that might happen based on SSA skill and potential.

We shall revisit this when that happens but right now no way they are at the same level.

SSA is definitely the best new ball T20 bowler in the world. That’s about it. That itself is a unique category so let’s see how long he can keep that up before teams come with a counter plan.

 

[Hextro]

That is fine and as a Pakistani fan you should.

There is also a chance that might happen based on SSA skill and potential.

We shall revisit this when that happens but right now no way they are at the same level.

SSA is definitely the best new ball T20 bowler in the world. That’s about it. That itself is a unique category so let’s see how long he can keep that up before teams come with a counter plan.

Glad we could agree on something. We'll see how these guys turn out in the future, they're not even half way through their career yet.

 

[MenInG]

Glad we could agree on something. We'll see how these guys turn out in the future, they're not even half way through their careers yet.

If you were a betting man - who would you think will last the longest amongst the 2?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Look at the opposition. Dont keep harping on about SENA, Australia England blah blah.

Look at the state of English cricket right now - it is a laughing stock and you may be leading 2-1 but you haven’t beaten them and you have been spanked from pillar to post for the last 15 years in England.

South Africa are a very poor side right now

Australia in 2018 were rudderless

The Australia 2020/21 team had consistency issues. However, that was a bona fide win for India. I give them a lot of credit for that. Fair play. But it was not won by your bowling attack. It was won by your ‘keeper with the bowlers chipping in. And dare I say it is harder to be a fast bowling matchwinner in the subcontinent due to the pitches.

If India were such a great so called ‘pace attack’ (read seam up bowling unit), then why do you still prepare dustbowls for the spinners?

What has pakistan done in these countries? Won how many tests?

Its laughable when a Pakistani calls Australia rudderless, South Africa very poor and questions the state of English cricket.

Yes India has a very good pace attack (read fast bowling attack) and we prepare pitches that help our bowlers but renders the opposition bowling toothless.

 

[Local.Dada]

If you were a betting man - who would you think will last the longest amongst the 2?

I am not a betting man but guys like Ishant,Shami, Bhuvi,Umesh have lasted and been more successful compared to their more talented peers like Junaid Khan, Amir, Wahab, Sohail Khan, Md Irfan etc

I would say based on resource management the odds are tempting isn’t it?

 

[Local.Dada]

What has pakistan done in these countries? Won how many tests?

Its laughable when a Pakistani calls Australia rudderless, South Africa very poor and questions the state of English cricket.

Yes India has a very good pace attack (read fast bowling attack) and we prepare pitches that help our bowlers but renders the opposition bowling toothless.

And spin attack as well. Good enough to bench a veteran with nearly 450 wickets. That also speaks of our fast bowling attack as well that we can take that chance.

 

[BreadPakoda]

What has pakistan done in these countries? Won how many tests?

Its laughable when a Pakistani calls Australia rudderless, South Africa very poor and questions the state of English cricket.

Yes India has a very good pace attack (read fast bowling attack) and we prepare pitches that help our bowlers but renders the opposition bowling toothless.

Not Pakistan’s fault that they end up facing an in-form Warner and charged up Khawaja who smash the likes of Musa, Sohail, Shaheen, and Naseem all over the ground. Only if they faced rudderless versions of these players.

 

[TheSultan]

Every result can be nitpicked then.

So Pak beat India in the WT20 because they were lucky to win toss and chase in dew, Indian team were tired from IPL, Rohit and Kohli were out of form or decline. Hope you analyze that win or other Pakistani wins at that level too.

We prepare spin conditions because we also have the best test spin line up. Nearly 700 wickets from our spin-duo. A guy like Ashwin sits out at times that’s how competitive our bowling is over all.

I’m not really nitpicking here. I’m giving india credit for their 20/21 victory in Australia. But don’t make out it was because of fast bowling. It was a mental victory by your keeper and mainly your batsmen turning it on. Disciplined seam up bowling played a role sure. But don’t use that series to point out a victory due to your so called fast bowling.

England you haven’t beaten yet so no point using them as an example and your bowling has been schooled by Jimmy and co over the years in England anyway. Add to the fact that the England attack is so long in the tooth now and their batting bar root is toothless and even if you managed to beat them it wouldn’t be much of ab achievement. A completely inexperienced and quite a poor pak team drew with England in 2018 when india got spanked.

South Africa let’s face it - if you wanted to beat SA in SA this would be the best time in history to face them.

 

[TheSultan]

On the Shaheen and Bumrah comparison, this is pointless. Neither have played 30 tests and bumrah is on the decline.

So Shaheen staying fit he will easily surpass bumrah - it’s not rocket science it’s just simple logic

 

[Hextro]

If you were a betting man - who would you think will last the longest amongst the 2?

I feel Shaheen will have a longer career than Bumrah due to the fact Bumrah has already obtained a pretty serious injury which has affected his bowling. Shaheen's action is just less injury prone than Bumrah's.

If I had to bet I would bet on Shaheen lasting longer than Bumrah.