Can a two team strategy work for Pakistan?

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

India and England have fielded two separate teams for Tests and LOI (limited Over Internationals) after trying out an extensive pool of players in various series over the last couple of years.

Not a strategy for Pakistan - who largely play their first team with many players representing both formats, regardless of the opposition or the fact that their replacements are largely similar quality.

Having said that, here is a first attempt at outlining how Tests and LOI teams will shape for Pakistan if they both had a match on the same day.

Difficult judgment calls to assign players who play all formats so they have been assigned based on where they will impact results the most. For example, should Babar, despite his stellar centuries in tests away in difficult conditions, be in LOI or Test team? My vote is LOI because without him, the ODI/T20 teams will probably fall apart, while test team may cope.

Going by the last teams Pakistan fielded in each format but making changes including Captain.

Test
Abid Ali
Imran Butt
Azhar Ali
Fawad Alam
Sajid Khan
M Rizwan (wk)
Faheem Ashraf
Hassan Ali (c)
Nouman Ali
Yasir Shah
Shaheen Shah Afridi


LOI
Babar Azam (c)
Sharjeel Khan
Sohaib Maqsood
Fakhar Zaman
Saud Shakeel
Rohail Nazir (WK)
Shadab Khan
M Nawaz
Imad Wasim
Usman Qadir
M Hasnain

- Only included players in a format who have actually played internationals in that format. Otherwise it is just conjecture on how successful they will be, with zero data. Therefore Saud Shakeel will not make it in tests because he hasn't played one.
- Players like Naseem Shah, Musa, Haris Rauf, Asif Ali, Imam, Azam Khan need to go back to domestics (so should Hasnain but we are scrapping bottom of the barrel).
- Not picking one-season players who haven't played a single international like Shahnawaz Dahani, M Wasim Jr at this stage.
- Also not included Shoaib Malik/Hafeez/Sarfaraz/Iftikhar because of long term value and also because Hafeez/Malik may get bowling ban again which will severely reduce their value.
- Not using 12th man/ or slash sign (this/that) because I am forcing myself to be disciplined only on the 1st team.
- Not included Amir because he is retired and may stay that way. Also needs strong fitness work.

I have come up with two weak teams with severe fast bowling deficiencies in LOIs and lack of bowling options, particularly spin, in tests.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Sorry but the fact that this is even a question makes me laugh.

Pakistan is not an A list team with an outstanding system that churns out professionals, who play with the same champion mindset in international cricket, that they did in domestic.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

A-list teams like India, Australia, England and New Zealand play with a certain mindset and a philosophy. Regardless of the players, the philosophy remains the same. And much to the credit of their systems, they all have an abundance of players who can step in, take over from established guys, and in most cases: not miss a single beat.

Pakistan on the other hand are entirely dependent on a certain group of players. If Rizwan and Babar don't play, you're almost certain Pakistan won't win. This isn't at all the case for the A-list teams.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Sorry but the fact that this is even a question makes me laugh.

Pakistan is not an A list team with an outstanding system that churns out professionals, who play with the same champion mindset in international cricket, that they did in domestic.

I find this kind of thinking lazy.

Pakistan don’t have talent, Pakistan is not an elite team, Pakistan has poor domestic system etc.

All those are true but does that mean teams should stop trying to get better?

Wolves, West Ham, Denmark in football, Lotus in formula 1 and Tampa in baseball are also not elite. Should they drop dead?

Idea is to maximize what you have and work towards a system that makes you competitive and punch above your weight.

So what options should Pakistan choose?

 

[Bhaijaan]

I am for two team policy but not on basis of format but on basis of oppponent.

Play your first choice XI only against Big 3 or at max Greater 5 in tournaments.

No need to field your top cricketers against tier-2 teams and those beneath them like Sri Lanka, South Africa etc.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

I am for two team policy but not on basis of format but on basis of oppponent.

Play your first choice XI only against Big 3 or at max Greater 5 in tournaments.

No need to field your top cricketers against tier-2 teams and those beneath them like Sri Lanka, South Africa etc.

Agree. However the conditions here is that Pakistan has to play a test and an LOI “on the same day.”

 

[street cricketer]

If it was that easy, teams like Sri Lanka and West Indies would have already started fielding two teams. You can't field two teams without the required depth and quality of players in domestic cricket. And you can't develop the required depth without improving your first class and junior age grassroots cricket systems. For that you of course need money. There's a deeper malaise in cricket.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

If it was that easy, teams like Sri Lanka and West Indies would have already started fielding two teams. You can't field two teams without the required depth and quality of players in domestic cricket. And you can't develop the required depth without improving your first class and junior age grassroots cricket systems. For that you of course need money. There's a deeper malaise in cricket.

Who would you choose if schedules dictated Pakistan had a test against NZ away and an ODI against England at home on the same day?
@mods can you make this question as starter of the thread please? I am unclear.

 

[zacattakk]

Test
Abid Ali
Imran Butt
Azhar Ali
Fawad Alam
Sajid Khan
M Rizwan (wk)
Faheem Ashraf
Hassan Ali (c)
Nouman Ali
Yasir Shah
Shaheen Shah Afridi

Dude you picked only 5 batsmen and 6 bowlers!?! Fahim is a pseudoallrounder. Hasan Ali can swing the bat but is not an allrounder. Rest are full bowlers.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I find this kind of thinking lazy.

Pakistan don’t have talent, Pakistan is not an elite team, Pakistan has poor domestic system etc.

All those are true but does that mean teams should stop trying to get better?

Wolves, West Ham, Denmark in football, Lotus in formula 1 and Tampa in baseball are also not elite. Should they drop dead?

Idea is to maximize what you have and work towards a system that makes you competitive and punch above your weight.

So what options should Pakistan choose?

You can find it lazy all you want, that doesn't change the fact that it is rooted in reality.

Pakistani domestic players simply don't have access to the same level of funding, coaching, facilities that these other teams have access to. There is a reason why so many of our domestic players look like deer caught in the headlights when they debut for Pakistan, while other teams' C players look like professional, international-level talents from the outset.

Pakistan has been punching above its weight for pretty much forever, and continues to do so. I would like to think the team is much better now than it was in 2009 or 2011 or 2015. I also find it laudable that players like Babar Azam, Mohammad Rizwan, Hasan Ali and Shaheen have been able to emerge and establish themselves as world-class talents in spite of the system, rather than because of it. And that is really the best that Pakistan can hope for. That players like that somehow get discovered and get to the top. Things will improve incrementally, but on the whole I don't see the kind of revolution that New Zealand or England have experienced in recent years.

And that is simply a rational and realistic assessment.


Also, all the examples you gave are of teams from first-world countries. Their stadium bathrooms are probably better furnished than the dressing room at GSL. You call the Tampa Bay Rays "not elite" and in the context of MLB they are not. But even their home stadium: Tropicana Field has a 42,000 capacity.

So don't just apply random and compare them with Pakistan. There are alot of factors that determines the quality of teams from money, to team combination to the fact that many of the ones you mentioned play in highly competitive leagues on a weekly basis that get the best out of them. But one thing all have in common is that all these teams exist in first world countries where their players have unfettered access to the best facilities even if they are a poor team/club. therefore even if they are rubbish as a team you can fully expect they will be professionals.

 

[silentkiller187]

pakistan hasnt even got a solid first team and you want them to field two teams

 

[WengerOut]

In LOIs, only Eng can field a complete B team and be competetive against every team, even favourites in all of them bar 2 or 3. India can get away with against this poor SL side who are only better than maybe Zim.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

I want to see Pakistan play series of matches without Babar & Rizwan against Sri Lanka, Afganistan and Ireland.

 

[Titan24]

Babar out of tests and Rizwan dropped from LOIs? Also your sample lineup in LOIs has 4 spinners and one pacer.

No cricket team in the world has two entirely separate teams for different formats. Your core players are common across the formats while rest of the composition is with respect to format requirements. Pretty much the same is the case with Pakistan team as well.

 

[Mesozoic]

No.

You remove the Babar-Rizwan duo and Pak are probably on par with Bangladesh and slightly better than Zimbabwe/Afghanistan.

There's a reason why Misbah (or even Mickey before him) plays pretty much a full strength team even against Zimbabwe B.

 

[ex-q-zit]

In LOIs, only Eng can field a complete B team and be competetive against every team, even favourites in all of them bar 2 or 3. India can get away with against this poor SL side who are only better than maybe Zim.

This sri lankan side whitewashed pakistan in pakistan. They also competed much better against full strength England compared to Pakistan in the ODIs.

The current Indian team in SL too can be competitive against every team and favourites in all bar 2 or 3.

 

[WengerOut]

This sri lankan side whitewashed pakistan in pakistan. They also competed much better against full strength England compared to Pakistan in the ODIs.

The current Indian team in SL too can be competitive against every team and favourites in all bar 2 or 3.

Pak lost against a different SL team. If i am not wrong, last time Pak defeated them easily. Regarding Ind team in SL, that is a mediocre team except for couple of youngsters. The bowling of Bhuvi, Chahar, Yuzi, Kuldeep, Krunal etc is club level and will be beaten to pulp by even Ban.

 

[gani999]

Regarding Ind team in SL, that is a mediocre team except for couple of youngsters. The bowling of Bhuvi, Chahar, Yuzi, Kuldeep, Krunal etc is club level and will be beaten to pulp by even Ban.

In the opportunity they got, they were anything but mediocre club level, even if against a relatively poor opposition.
People said the same thing about the depleted Indian test side that played in Australia. Look at what happened.

Beaten to pulp by BAN lol. You armchair pundits can be hilarous at times.

 

[Savak]

This requires a public, cricketing community and hierarchy which does not give a damn about losing. Sadly our public is not cut out for it as they demand changes after every defeat.

 

[WengerOut]

In the opportunity they got, they were anything but mediocre club level, even if against a relatively poor opposition.
People said the same thing about the depleted Indian test side that played in Australia. Look at what happened.

Beaten to pulp by BAN lol. You armchair pundits can be hilarous at times.

Would Ind win a series against any other opposition with that team, in LOIs?

 

[ex-q-zit]

Pak lost against a different SL team. If i am not wrong, last time Pak defeated them easily. Regarding Ind team in SL, that is a mediocre team except for couple of youngsters. The bowling of Bhuvi, Chahar, Yuzi, Kuldeep, Krunal etc is club level and will be beaten to pulp by even Ban.

This bowling attack was more or less the same that defeated England in t20s and ODIs in March. just replace Chahar with Bumrah the other 4 were part of the team and you call them club level. Lewis Gregory, Saqib, Parkinson were not world class too for that matter. Its all about system they come from and having the self belief to perform from the start at the highest level. Both ECB and BCCI seem to have this system in place where they have a pool of 30-40 players who can play internationals.

Like gani999 said even in Australia we fielded a bowling attack that had a combined wicket tally of around 10 wickets as against the Aussies who accounted for over 1000 but we all know what happened. The current indian pool pf players have a lot of self belief which translates into their performance. Players like SKY, Dhawan, Prithvi, Ishan and hardik would walk into any team as compared to Vince, Salt, Crawley, Gregory, malan.

Avishka Fernando
Minod Bhanuka
Bhanuka rajapaksa
wanindu Hasaranga
Isuru Udana
Kasun Rajitha
Lakshan Sandakan

All these were part of the playing XI that played against Pakistan. Anothyer player Lahiru Kumara who played then is part of the current squad.

 

[Mesozoic]

Would Ind win a series against any other opposition with that team, in LOIs?

I'd back that team to beat every team barring Eng, Aus and Nz away. At home it would be a close affair against even them.

 

[par]

Would Ind win a series against any other opposition with that team, in LOIs?

Against Pakistan?

 

[WengerOut]

Against Pakistan?

Indian original bowling lineup has been pretty avg lately and people here are drooling over second choice as well. That is some level of delusion. I mean KulCha, Chahar and Krunal.. REALLY

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

You can find it lazy all you want, that doesn't change the fact that it is rooted in reality.

Pakistani domestic players simply don't have access to the same level of funding, coaching, facilities that these other teams have access to. There is a reason why so many of our domestic players look like deer caught in the headlights when they debut for Pakistan, while other teams' C players look like professional, international-level talents from the outset.

Pakistan has been punching above its weight for pretty much forever, and continues to do so. I would like to think the team is much better now than it was in 2009 or 2011 or 2015. I also find it laudable that players like Babar Azam, Mohammad Rizwan, Hasan Ali and Shaheen have been able to emerge and establish themselves as world-class talents in spite of the system, rather than because of it. And that is really the best that Pakistan can hope for. That players like that somehow get discovered and get to the top. Things will improve incrementally, but on the whole I don't see the kind of revolution that New Zealand or England have experienced in recent years.

And that is simply a rational and realistic assessment.


Also, all the examples you gave are of teams from first-world countries. Their stadium bathrooms are probably better furnished than the dressing room at GSL. You call the Tampa Bay Rays "not elite" and in the context of MLB they are not. But even their home stadium: Tropicana Field has a 42,000 capacity.

So don't just apply random and compare them with Pakistan. There are alot of factors that determines the quality of teams from money, to team combination to the fact that many of the ones you mentioned play in highly competitive leagues on a weekly basis that get the best out of them. But one thing all have in common is that all these teams exist in first world countries where their players have unfettered access to the best facilities even if they are a poor team/club. therefore even if they are rubbish as a team you can fully expect they will be professionals.

Let’s assume all this is true.

What if Pakistan have to play a test and an LOI on the same day in two different countries. FTP Schedules are now falling this way.

What teams would you field?

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

No.

You remove the Babar-Rizwan duo and Pak are probably on par with Bangladesh and slightly better than Zimbabwe/Afghanistan.

There's a reason why Misbah (or even Mickey before him) plays pretty much a full strength team even against Zimbabwe B.

Got it.

What if they are forced to due to schedules? What are your teams?

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Dude you picked only 5 batsmen and 6 bowlers!?! Fahim is a pseudoallrounder. Hasan Ali can swing the bat but is not an allrounder. Rest are full bowlers.

Agreed. Terrible teams.

What would you do if forced to have a test and an LOI on the same day in two different countries? What will be your teams?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Let’s assume all this is true.

What if Pakistan have to play a test and an LOI on the same day in two different countries. FTP Schedules are now falling this way.

What teams would you field?

FTP schedules are not falling this way. This is happening because Coronvirus has instituted certain protocols that force teams to arrive in touring countries weeks in advance. And the reason this is happening to Big 3 teams is because they only care about playing endlessly long series with each other and very little about their series' with other sides. Which is why their schedules oftentimes end up having clashes.

For a team like Pakistan, that plays very less cricket as it is compared to them; its unlikely to happen. And having a test and a LOI on the same day certainly won't happen even for India, England or Australia.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

I'd back that team to beat every team barring Eng, Aus and Nz away. At home it would be a close affair against even them.

If England, Australia & New Zealand loses to a bowling lineup of Chahar, Kumar, kuldeep and krunal pandya, I would start worrying about the future of International cricket.

 

[Savak]

Only those teams can do it if they are getting invited by different countries all over the world and there is a clash. Pakistan does not get to play enough cricket and does not get invited enough by the main teams which is why they have to always play their best team and why they also have to fill out the gaps in their schedule against minnows.

 

[IMMY69]

I saw the title of this thread snd thought no, a two man strategy of just Babar and Rizwan certainly won't work...

 

[ex-q-zit]

If England, Australia & New Zealand loses to a bowling lineup of Chahar, Kumar, kuldeep and krunal pandya, I would start worrying about the future of International cricket.

Well England did lose to the above line-up in march in both t20s and ODIs. Only Chahar was replaced by Bumrah.

 

[Manzy2599]

The fact that this thread exists is laughable. Pakistan cannot compete with the best sides in any format with their best team under this kind of managements mindset where everyone is concerned about their place for the next game. Secondly why would your best batsman (Babar) not be in the test side if they talk so much about valuing test cricket and how it’s the ultimate format. Just imagine if Kohli went to SL with the LOI squad while the test squad is gonna face England soon. It doesn’t make sense even if kohlis LOI stats are better than his test that he’s included in LOIs.