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Can India defeat quality teams without Virat Kohli?

CricFan2012

CricFan2012

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Has team India ever defeated South Africa, Australia or England since 2013 without the help of Kholi?

Just goes on to show what a mainstay he is in his own team. Second best batsman if this generation behind Joe Root.
 
help of Kohli?? You are making him sound like some sort of outside mercenary.. And thanks for pointing the obvious Einstein that he's the main stay of Indian batting line up.. Without you telling us we could have never guessed it
 
No they lost to ultra minnows bangla when kohli went out of form. They will get pummeled by quality teams
 
CricFan2012 said:
Has team India ever defeated South Africa, Australia or England since 2013 without the help of Kholi?

Just goes on to show what a mainstay he is in his own team. Second best batsman if this generation behind Joe Root.
Click to expand...

How many Tests has India won in England, Australia, SA with Kohli as the player?

Number please
 
The Test in England 2014 was won thanks to an impressive knock by Rahane, in the same series where Virat was struggling.
 
We won CT 2013 without Kohli's help for most part.

We won ODI series in England 2014 where Kohli scored nothing.

We were WC SF when Kohli scored mainly against Pakistan and some minnows.

Kohli has won lots and lots of games for India but we have won a few without Kohli too.

But if you take out Kohli, our LOI side's strength gets reduced to half. It may still do well in tourneys but it won't win as many overall games as it does.
 
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Dman said:
How many Tests has India won in England, Australia, SA with Kohli as the player?

Number please
Click to expand...
I'm purely speaking about LOI, title should have gave that away, a format where draws occur, a format that no one watches all of.
 
CricFan2012 said:
I'm purely speaking about LOI, title should have gave that away, a format where draws occur, a format that no one watches all of.
Click to expand...

Remember the match where Rohit scored double ton against Australia?

The recent home series where Dhonis crucial ton won a low scoring match against SA.

So many matches.
 
Dman said:
Remember the match where Rohit scored double ton against Australia?

The recent home series where Dhonis crucial ton won a low scoring match against SA.

So many matches.
Click to expand...

The first one was against Sri Lanka in home conditions. The one vs SA had Dhoni scoring 92 runs and not ton but it was a match winning knock and pretty valid example.
 
On topic, yes as Rohit, Dhawan, Raina , Dhoni are all capable of winning games but in crunch games against quality attack ( eg WC semi 15) you need your best batsmen to show up and others can't really win without his help.
 
Ab Fan said:
The first one was against Sri Lanka in home conditions. The one vs SA had Dhoni scoring 92 runs and not ton but it was a match winning knock and pretty valid example.
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Not to forget that AB was scoring tons for fun in that series while Virat was struggling.

The First Double ton for Rohit was against Australia in Bangalore.
 
Dman said:
Not to forget that AB was scoring tons for fun in that series while Virat was struggling.

The First Double ton for Rohit was against Australia in Bangalore.
Click to expand...

Virat was out of form during that phase although he managed a century in the 4th odi.
 
Ab Fan said:
How is Mr. Joe Root ahead of him ?
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Root has played most of his match in English conditions which are far harder than sub continent conditions, don't want to take anything away from Kholi, it's not his fault he was brought up to play in his conditions.
 
CricFan2012 said:
Root has played most of his match in English conditions which are far harder than sub continent conditions, don't want to take anything away from Kholi, it's not his fault he was brought up to play in his conditions.
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In odis, Kohli is head and shoulder ahead of Root, Smith and Williamson.

In t20s, Kohli is head and shoulder ahead of all three.The next in line has to be Smith for delivering in WC crunch games.

In tests, Kohli is a notch below Smith, Root and Williamson all three are equally good and not much to choose between them.

I agree England conditions are harder but this statement is way too overstated. In odis you get flat decks there also like in Eng- NZ odi series where teams were scoring 350.
 
India will still win but I think the number of wins will significantly reduce without Kohli.

And no, Root is not better than Kohli at the moment.
 
Ab Fan said:
In odis, Kohli is head and shoulder ahead of Root, Smith and Williamson.

In t20s, Kohli is head and shoulder ahead of all three.C crunch games.The next in line has to be Smith for delivering in W

In tests, Kohli is a notch below Smith, Root and Williamson all three are equally good and not much to choose between them.

I agree England conditions are harder but this statement is way too overstated. In odis you get flat decks there also like in Eng- NZ odi series where teams were scoring 350.
Click to expand...

I mean that in odis and not t20s..
 
India have beaten Australia, SA, England, etc. without the help of Kohli.

Negative with New Zealand or Pakistan.
 
Yes, india can. Rohit is extremely underrated here. There was a little period in the last two years during which India was nothing without Rohit. Only one of kohli, Rohit,dhoni,dhawan has to fire for India to put a decent total on the board and that happens more often than not. Rohit averages 50 as opener. Kohli and Dhoni average more than 50 in the middle order. That shows how consistent these players are for India over the years. Dhoni should bat at 4/5, that is the only position for him in the team as he is going downhill when it comes to hitting.

In tests, Kohli is still nobody except that Australia series. Vijay, Rahane and bowlers contributed in most of wins for India.

My ODI XI:

Rohit
Dhawan/Rahul
Kohli
Karun Nair
Dhoni
Manish Pandey
Hardik
Ashwin
Bhuvneshwar
Shami
Bumrah.
 
Kohli's "quality" team lost in IPL (since here we are considering only about individual player & impact, I think we can consider IPL as it was played with fullest intensity) even with the help of some more star players. Which goes to show why "11" players (+ some good bench strength) is important for a team to win more matches. Hence India wins more matches only because of "strong" team and not individual. That is why India had to wait till 2011 for world cup even with great Sachin around (needed a "team" again + of course a good captain) India lost the recent T20 world cup because "only" Kohli was performing.

I can see a totally different viewpoint here. If a team starts to depend on just 1 or 2 individuals, such team is likely to lose more matches than winning. That is why Srilanka outclassed India in 1992 world cup even with Sachin at his epic'est Godly prime (with so many of their batsmen coming to the party along with bowlers, fielders) That is why (11 players) Australia won so many cups and Pontings, Gilchrists become matchwinners instead of bottlers while Tendulkar & Kohli become chokers & record-riders!

So people like Kohli should rather be an value addition to strong team rather than pressure-holders!
 
Kohli is our biggest match winner in LOIs followed by Rohit.

When it comes to Tests though, I rate Rahane as a better rounded batsman than Kohli and Vijay better or at par with him.

However our bowlers are still our biggest match winners in Tests - Ashwin, Jadeja and Mishra in that order.
 
This is a weird question, does it really matter if India can defeat other countries without Kohli. Kohli is an Indian player playing for India. It should not matter whether India relies on him too much, they have every right to as the team is build around him.
 
RamLakhan said:
Kohli's "quality" team lost in IPL (since here we are considering only about individual player & impact, I think we can consider IPL as it was played with fullest intensity) even with the help of some more star players. Which goes to show why "11" players (+ some good bench strength) is important for a team to win more matches. Hence India wins more matches only because of "strong" team and not individual. That is why India had to wait till 2011 for world cup even with great Sachin around (needed a "team" again + of course a good captain) India lost the recent T20 world cup because "only" Kohli was performing.

I can see a totally different viewpoint here. If a team starts to depend on just 1 or 2 individuals, such team is likely to lose more matches than winning. That is why Srilanka outclassed India in 1992 world cup even with Sachin at his epic'est Godly prime (with so many of their batsmen coming to the party along with bowlers, fielders) That is why (11 players) Australia won so many cups and Pontings, Gilchrists become matchwinners instead of bottlers while Tendulkar & Kohli become chokers & record-riders!

So people like Kohli should rather be an value addition to strong team rather than pressure-holders!
Click to expand...

Virat has ensured that his teams have reached Finals single handedly , both with RCB and the Indian team .you wudnt call his team failures . yes his teams did not win couple of finals , matches where he scored , not exactly choked . offcourse you need 11 great players to dominate and win everything , but if there is a batsmen who's shown that you can win with little or no help from his team its Virat .
 
The same used to be said for Sachin in late 1990s

We can win even without Virat Kohli. Players like Rohit, Dhawan, Rahane, Manish, etc will still be there
 
jusarrived said:
Virat has ensured that his teams have reached Finals single handedly , both with RCB and the Indian team .you wudnt call his team failures . yes his teams did not win couple of finals , matches where he scored , not exactly choked . offcourse you need 11 great players to dominate and win everything , but if there is a batsmen who's shown that you can win with little or no help from his team its Virat .
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The query is "can India defeat quality teams without Virat", my answer is "Quality teams cannot be defeated just with Virat" (though it is not a straight forward answer). Virat can ensure wins against average opponents (Pakistan), Rohit can blast minnows (Bangladesh, Srilanka/West Indies in India). But against "quality teams" we need Virat + Rohit + X + Y....... upto 11. That is the only way. You may win the odd matches, but to ensure "definite win" you need 11 virats (or 75%) in the team playing their roles. You don't need 1 or 2 guys peaked at 300% and others are 10%. (Even consistent 80% in all 11 is enough to ensure wins, e.g., WI in last world cup, Srilanka in 1992. Just 1 guy peaking is not going to win all matches - e.g., Tendulkar in 1992, Neil Johnson of Zimbabwe in some world cup)

And its not me, it is so many people who ridicule and make fun of highest proportions at people like Tendulkar & Kohli for failing in crucial matches and conveniently forget the hard work done up to then. According to them it is just a waste effort if they can't carry all the way and its the curse of being one man army. But the thing with "11 team" is, the whole team will carry the team to knockouts, and the standout players perform in the knockouts and become superheroes (e.g., Ponting, Gilchrist)

My final inference to the particular query (winning against quality team) is: Actually India will have better chance winning against quality teams / knockout games without Kohli because at least in that way they will step up & try to perform above par. Ideally Kohli should be a part of strong Indian team for him to be remembered as match-winner (even if he fails in knockouts, at least his efforts in the league games will be appreciated and the team effort in knockout triumphs will eclipse his failures). Otherwise he will be termed as another Tendulkar, and both him and team will be criticized to the core and we saw that with Tendulkar.
 
Outside Asia, India can't beat top teams with the help of Kohli, and you are asking about with out kohli?
 
#GreenRoars said:
Outside Asia, India can't beat top teams with the help of Kohli, and you are asking about with out kohli?
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Right assessment in single line! Outside Asia India needs much more than Kohli! Inside Asia they can win even without Kohli (unless they field a dreadful side & everyone play way below par) Inference: Kohli should be part of strong Indian team making it even more stronger, unfortunately if he gets into weak team it will get even more weaker (as teams will target him in key matches)
 
amit said:
The same used to be said for Sachin in late 1990s

We can win even without Virat Kohli. Players like Rohit, Dhawan, Rahane, Manish, etc will still be there
Click to expand...
Who's Manish?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
Even with Kohli we have lost most of the away ODI matches in Aus , SA and Eng.

Last 30 ODI matches since 2011 away in these countries , we have lost 18 and won 8. Last ODI series in Aus we were thrashed 4-1.

We even lost the ODI series 3-2 to South Africa at home in Oct 2015 ! The less said about test matches the better.
 
In current odi team for India rohit Dhawan Raina Dhoni Rahane, are one of the following incostistent or have declined. Kohli is getting better. India need Manish Pandey to keep developing to help take the pressure of Kohli. He can't always bail India out
 
You need 11 players to win a match. Yes, Kohli is the mainstay of our lineup but others are not there just to fill the numbers. We have other quality batsmen as well. Underestimate us at your own peril :)
 
He is part of team

Why think of team without him?
 
Food for thought -- If India can manage without Sachin, who is Kohli?
 
They said the same thing when Gavaskar retired
 
India has defeated Australia with Rohit scoring bulk of the runs.

Kohli is usually a no show against Aussies. Rohit for some reason bats like Bradman against them.
 
WHenever India won, 2 of the top 3 fired.

If Dhawan and Rohit fire, Kohli is not needed.
 
India is vulnerable without Kohli but its mainly got to do with Kohli's captaincy and not giving chances to youngsters. He just sticks to people selected by bunty sajdeh.
 
Imagine Australia without Smith in tests?

Imagine SA without ABDV in odis back when Qdk wasn't established?

Imagine India without Tendulkar ?

Imagine WI without Lara?

Pretty much the case.
 
It will be better for Kohli to take rest for 2 series atleast every year, good for him to recoup his energies and will be good to chaffe out the deadwood from the team. He cannot cover them with his performance in that way. The bad performers will be exposed - you might say whole team performed badly, that is an aberration today. And the regular dead-wood will be exposed - Jadhav, Dhoni (he might have played today but I am not convinced with his style - he is the one who said old and non-performers should go back in 2007-2011- that was his policy, now he is still hanging around) Karthik, Rahane, Ashwin (on flat pitches) etc - new and upcoming players should be given chances and even if the team loses, no problem with young guns atleast future is there with young players, not with dead-wood.
 
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